code65536 wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

No.

First, because Bretons are a good race and don't need a buff. That would increase the imbalance between the good and bad races even more.

I see this type of argument a lot. But I don't understand the logic behind it.

First, buffing Breton to make it competitive with Altmer will not make Argonian, Nord, or the other "bad" races any less appealing than they already are. All it does is give a better alternative to people who would otherwise have gone Altmer. I.e., making Breton better is going to pull people away from Altmer, not from the races that people already don't care for.

Second, if your goal is to make all the races competitive, then you want to narrow the gap between races. Buffing Breton will narrow the Breton-Altmer gap, widen the Breton-Others gap, and do nothing to change the substantial Altmer-Others gap, and the real problem is there, in the Altmer-Others gap. Instead of arguing against a Breton buff, wouldn't it be much more productive to support a buff to Bretons and other races so that we narrow all the gaps?

What I am saying is: There is no big gap between Altmer and Bretons sustain-wise. In fact, most of the people I know consider Bretons to have better sustain than Altmer (at least slightly). Altmer is chosen so frequently, because of the elemental damage passive.
And if we look at the 4 magicka PvE DD builds, DKs will still go for Dunmer (or Altmer), Sorcs will still go for Altmer, NBs have no reason to go for Breton, even with better sustain, because being an Altmer buffs their Meteor. The only class that could profit from better sustain is the magicka Templar, although one would have slightly less Meteor damage, sustain is a big problem for Templar DDs.
So, from my point-of-view, even with 25% cost reduction, people would still not favor Bretons, because of the extra damage, that Altmer gives.
As I also have said before: if you really want to make Bretons superior to Altmer sustain-wise, this change is ok. But it is simply not true, that Altmers are sustain-monsters and Bretons would constantly run OOM. The sustain is equal or even better for Bretons. The problem lies in the damage passive. And if you ask me: I would like if all racial damage passives are removed. If these things are in a game in the way it is now, there will always be a top choice.

DschiPeunt wrote: »

What I am saying is: There is no big gap between Altmer and Bretons sustain-wise.

But there is.

Have you seen Sorcerer Arithmagic? The equations spell out the reality: the more sources of cost reduction you have, the less effective they are. The more sources of regen you have, the more effective they are.

The people who care about the difference are mostly people interested in end-game content. At that level, where you have all your various passive skills and a decent amount of CP, the math simply does not support Breton cost reduction at all for any scenario.

DschiPeunt wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

DschiPeunt wrote: »

No.

First, because Bretons are a good race and don't need a buff. That would increase the imbalance between the good and bad races even more.

I see this type of argument a lot. But I don't understand the logic behind it.

First, buffing Breton to make it competitive with Altmer will not make Argonian, Nord, or the other "bad" races any less appealing than they already are. All it does is give a better alternative to people who would otherwise have gone Altmer. I.e., making Breton better is going to pull people away from Altmer, not from the races that people already don't care for.

Second, if your goal is to make all the races competitive, then you want to narrow the gap between races. Buffing Breton will narrow the Breton-Altmer gap, widen the Breton-Others gap, and do nothing to change the substantial Altmer-Others gap, and the real problem is there, in the Altmer-Others gap. Instead of arguing against a Breton buff, wouldn't it be much more productive to support a buff to Bretons and other races so that we narrow all the gaps?

What I am saying is: There is no big gap between Altmer and Bretons sustain-wise. In fact, most of the people I know consider Bretons to have better sustain than Altmer (at least slightly). Altmer is chosen so frequently, because of the elemental damage passive.
And if we look at the 4 magicka PvE DD builds, DKs will still go for Dunmer (or Altmer), Sorcs will still go for Altmer, NBs have no reason to go for Breton, even with better sustain, because being an Altmer buffs their Meteor. The only class that could profit from better sustain is the magicka Templar, although one would have slightly less Meteor damage, sustain is a big problem for Templar DDs.
So, from my point-of-view, even with 25% cost reduction, people would still not favor Bretons, because of the extra damage, that Altmer gives.
As I also have said before: if you really want to make Bretons superior to Altmer sustain-wise, this change is ok. But it is simply not true, that Altmers are sustain-monsters and Bretons would constantly run OOM. The sustain is equal or even better for Bretons. The problem lies in the damage passive. And if you ask me: I would like if all racial damage passives are removed. If these things are in a game in the way it is now, there will always be a top choice.

ZoS isn't going to remove the damage passive (nor do I think they should), so the other races, including Bretons even though some people consider them "good," should receive buffs to remain competitive.

davidtxr wrote: »

Sorry but there are races that need buff way before Bretons

Then make a thread for them.

THIS thread is about Bretons. The fact is, with all the changes in the game since launch, 3% cost reduction is a joke and needs to be buffed.

A lot of the passives that used to be incredible aren't very incredible anymore. In the past, all cost reduction stacked additively according to its tooltip value, and so the more of it you stacked, the more powerful the Breton passive became. Instead of 3%, it was an effective reduction of 5 % (4.9 % to be exact) in full light armor, seducer set, someone with wormncult in group and class passives (sorc for example).

With some skills that return mana, this meant a massive increase in sustain (effective cost decrease there was more like 10 %), and the cost reduction also applied to make any mana return source more worthwhile.

The only things that Bretons have ever had better sustain at were things where most of their mana returm was actually from skills (crushing shock with elemental drain, healing springs, necrotic orb) and not their natural regen. Regen used to be lower in the past too, if I remember correctly.

7/7 light armor isn't an option anymore and stacking as much cost reduction as possible isn't a thing people do very often anymore.

Nowadays, high elf passives are better for almost anything, especially since the sustain from ele drain in combination with Breton passives simply isn't needed (due to champion points)
The spell resist (equates to 5 % less magic damage taken if you do the math) is not a reliable passive, and most of the time you don't even need it.
It's like a worse version of the Nord passive. It doesn't even allow you to run with less health because you still need to be able to survive physical hits of about the same magnitude.

It's certainly no Argonian, but I would only make a new Breton character under very specific circumstances (f.e. a pure healer).


I think we can all agree that all the racial passives need an overhaul because the game updates have invalidated a lot of the reasons why some people originally chose their race. Let's just hope that the race change/racial rebalance update will be kind to us and especially our wallets. Because we can't really do much more than that and bashing each other on the forums doesn't do anything other than making the devs ignore them because of the low signal to noise ratio.

I will back this change with all my nordic might, Bretons. If you will but support me on the vast issues with the northmen's passives. A joke of a dmg reduc passive, cold resistance that never is a factor and a mediocre hp boost. Surely all is off kilter when a nord is your last choice for creating a fearsome melee warrior type.

Mimeq wrote: »

Fat_Cat45 wrote: »

2/3/4 also works

No, it doesn't, 1% more? Lol...and also, if the first rank is 2%, it has to be 0/2/4/6% since the gap between ranks is always a regular number (in that case, 2) lol, 0/2/3/4 would not fit that logic, it's just wrong.



Always huh? That's a lot! are you sure about that?

RAGUNAnoOne wrote: »

Mimeq wrote: »

DC has good races AD has good races EP has crap races don't buff DC when EP is so far behind and people wonder why people complain no good players are in EP when they know the passives suck before you ask for bufftoBretons roll an Argonian or Nord non-tank PLEASE.

This is a neverending debate, really.

ZOS made its decision, races will be far less important in ESO than classes.

Dunmer racials are good. Nord is, ehm, could be stronger. Lorewise they are the toughest human warriors around, challenging the Orcs for the title. Argonians should be also revisited a bit.

yes

Eshelmen wrote: »

Yeah it does seem a tad low. But atleast we get a nice spell resistance with it.

I also get spell resist for wearing light armour... and being a dk or templar etc...

Spell resist is everywhere, if it was spell + Physical resist than it would be ok, but high elves get 4% ele dmg increase...

DschiPeunt wrote: »

No.

First, because Bretons are a good race and don't need a buff. That would increase the imbalance between the good and bad races even more.
Second, because the magicka regen buff increases the amount of magicka your character gets every 2 seconds. A lot of people have magicka regen below 900 and fire more than one spell every two seconds, let's just assume one per second. Also seeing that a lot of spells cost more than 1500 magicka, we end up with 3% reduction every second of a value >1500 for Bretons and an increase of a value <900 every 2 seconds for Altmer.
Quote from @Latter from his Magplar build on Tamriel Foundry:

Latter wrote:

High elf is what i went with, and is for this particular build the best choice, the bonus magicka will increase your damage, and the Elemental Talent passive will increase your attack damage with staffs, another viable choice is Breton, you would have a tiny bit more sustain but the damage would be slightly less, the difference is very minimal so its not a big deal.

This is an unnecessary buff.

Since altmers already have a greater dmg buff in pve and pvp, why not? Less dmg for more sustain, sounds like a fair trade.

What about us nords? We have been laughed at alot for a good while.

The only thing I want to complain on the nord passive is that the reduction. Is great and all but there is a soft cap to 50%. Either way people will still hit people so hard on the damage that magicka and stamina class builds do. Its not enough to reduction to stop it.

The reduction should be 9% instead of 6% and the soft cap should be change so that it needs to be increased a little more.

The vet rank 16 character players have is just to much damage now a days the reduction is just useless. Unless it is address so that reduction will mater to in PvP and PvE.

Even the reduction on abilities is just useless on your character to have on (unless it is the tower cp tree).

Today's meta (like everyone should know about now) is burst damage and have good decent amount of resource to kill someone or a ball group of people.