Why did they make Meteor un-reflectable? I don't see the sense of it.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

The reasoning and this is straight from ZOS mouth.

They wanted Meteor to be on par with the rest of the ultimates.

Either thought the rest of the ultimates also had counters and negatives they had to deal with such as Negate or Standers or Nova all being AoEs or Dragons Leap and Death Stroke being able to dodge roll or even side stepping or Soul Assault being a channel spell can be broken taking few steps back. All other ultimates had counters or negatives yet to no surprise ZOS can't see that cause they don't play their own game and just go off the word of no skilled elitest streamers.

Khaos_Bane · February 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

The reasoning and this is straight from ZOS mouth.

They wanted Meteor to be on par with the rest of the ultimates.

Either thought the rest of the ultimates also had counters and negatives they had to deal with such as Negate or Standers or Nova all being AoEs or Dragons Leap and Death Stroke being able to dodge roll or even side stepping or Soul Assault being a channel spell can be broken taking few steps back. All other ultimates had counters or negatives yet to no surprise ZOS can't see that cause they don't play their own game and just go off the word of no skilled elitest streamers.

I'm fine if they give it a counter, not just to the DK alone. Reflective could already use a nerf IMO.

ToRelax · February 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

The reasoning and this is straight from ZOS mouth.

They wanted Meteor to be on par with the rest of the ultimates.

Either thought the rest of the ultimates also had counters and negatives they had to deal with such as Negate or Standers or Nova all being AoEs or Dragons Leap and Death Stroke being able to dodge roll or even side stepping or Soul Assault being a channel spell can be broken taking few steps back. All other ultimates had counters or negatives yet to no surprise ZOS can't see that cause they don't play their own game and just go off the word of no skilled elitest streamers.

I'm fine if they give it a counter, not just to the DK alone. Reflective could already use a nerf IMO.

Not sure wether you're serious. But no, Reflective Scales was nerfed enough already and isn't the only reflect in the game either.

Xeven · February 2016

TheM0rganism wrote: »

DID I MENTION SOUL STRIKE IS STILL INTERRUPTABLE!?!

And purgable and cloakable.

joleda4ub17_ESO · February 2016

Minno wrote: »

This was the lesser evil.
The best option was to provide a reliable high dmg unique ulti for each class that performs as good as meteor. Then reduce meteor to a high volume fire/cold spell that shoots a range spell in a cone (reduce dmg and cost, but increased snare/healing reduction/whateverwhydoihavetodowrobelsjob)
But ZOS decided unreflective was the easiest to do.

I'll accept it, but it distracts from the discussion we should be having about class balance/ultimate balance.

It's another Band-Aid.

ThatNeonZebraAgain · February 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

It needs to be made ground-targeted if its not reflectable.

Amazing. This right here. There already is a system in place for non-reflectable abilities: ground-targeting.

Forestd16b14_ESO · February 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

The reasoning and this is straight from ZOS mouth.

They wanted Meteor to be on par with the rest of the ultimates.

Either thought the rest of the ultimates also had counters and negatives they had to deal with such as Negate or Standers or Nova all being AoEs or Dragons Leap and Death Stroke being able to dodge roll or even side stepping or Soul Assault being a channel spell can be broken taking few steps back. All other ultimates had counters or negatives yet to no surprise ZOS can't see that cause they don't play their own game and just go off the word of no skilled elitest streamers.

I'm fine if they give it a counter, not just to the DK alone. Reflective could already use a nerf IMO.

Thing is every one could reflect projectiles. The sword and shield skill defensive poster and it's morphs either healed you for the damage or stunned enemies and yes it could only reflect 1 projectile but it had no time limit. So it wasn't DKs alone who could reflect stuff every one can.

Like all this stupid junk about DKs wings being OP when every one has access to defensive poster. Like don't know what to slot on your 2nd bar slot SnS their you have DKs "I win" button as some less than skilled players put it.

Sarousse · February 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

Sarousse wrote: »

Devs stated that they're reverting it to reflectable again yersterday.

@Sarousse really, where?

edit: this is what i found yesterday...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Still see that theirs no changes to make Meteor reflectable again.

Times running out ZOS.

We stated last week (and a couple weeks ago) that we have no plans to make Meteor reflectable again.

Sorry, my bad, I did read Gina's post a bit too fast...

Kas · February 2016

tbh, i think meteor is fine non-reflectable (not planning to use it unless the blob meta remains despite deto changes + vicious death). it punishes balls and is still fairly week 1v1, because of the tell. Everyone can block the initial impact and then dodge out of it, shield users can apply shields beforehand, those with selfheal can take care that they are at full life. I agree that a combination with fear/fossilize/etc is a though one, but again: you see it coming and can bepreapre.

if they changes it to a ground target, it would either be the worst ultimate ever (with the tell) or actually much stronger than it is now (if they removed the visual tell). imho, the current state is the most balanced, followed by the one one live servers. ground targetting makes it either *** tier (like pre 1.6) or godly and then actually imbalanced (without a tell)

ToRelax · February 2016

Kas wrote: »

tbh, i think meteor is fine non-reflectable (not planning to use it unless the blob meta remains despite deto changes + vicious death). it punishes balls and is still fairly week 1v1, because of the tell. Everyone can block the initial impact and then dodge out of it, shield users can apply shields beforehand, those with selfheal can take care that they are at full life. I agree that a combination with fear/fossilize/etc is a though one, but again: you see it coming and can bepreapre.

if they changes it to a ground target, it would either be the worst ultimate ever (with the tell) or actually much stronger than it is now (if they removed the visual tell). imho, the current state is the most balanced, followed by the one one live servers. ground targetting makes it either *** tier (like pre 1.6) or godly and then actually imbalanced (without a tell)

You let in the visual cue and speed up the time before impact... doesn't seem that difficult to me.
And btw, zergballs ran around without detonation and it's not as if you'd lose damage by using stell tornado instead, Vicious Death actually needs enemies to die before it does anything, so have fun running Meteor I guess.

Joy_Division · February 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Why should it be reflectable ?

Because it was and meteor was still considered a good ultimate.

TheM0rganism · February 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Why should it be reflectable ?

Because it was and meteor was still considered a good ultimate.

This x1000.

It's reflect-ability was only applicable to a percentage of DKs and anyone who sacrificed damage to run S&B. How is that not fair? That's just smart counterplay.

DID I MENTION SOUL STRIKE IS NEGATED BY DODGE ROLL, IS PURGABLE, INTERUPTABLE, AND CLOACKABLE?!?!

Recremen · February 2016

Kas wrote: »

tbh, i think meteor is fine non-reflectable (not planning to use it unless the blob meta remains despite deto changes + vicious death). it punishes balls and is still fairly week 1v1, because of the tell. Everyone can block the initial impact and then dodge out of it, shield users can apply shields beforehand, those with selfheal can take care that they are at full life. I agree that a combination with fear/fossilize/etc is a though one, but again: you see it coming and can bepreapre.

if they changes it to a ground target, it would either be the worst ultimate ever (with the tell) or actually much stronger than it is now (if they removed the visual tell). imho, the current state is the most balanced, followed by the one one live servers. ground targetting makes it either *** tier (like pre 1.6) or godly and then actually imbalanced (without a tell)

Nah, meteor is currently on live the best Ultimate for every build that isn't trying to 1vX specifically because of how it plays out in groups. There's no reason to assume that the blob meta is going anywhere at best people will spread out a couple m ore meters from each other. You're still going to have 30 people casting meteor all at the same time when they push against another group. But now, instead of having very niche builds that can counter and discourage that sort of thing, it's just going to be the only thing that happens on a battlefield.

If it's relegated to ground targeting, congrats, it's now still better than other ultimates because it's still burst damage, DoT damage, and AoE CC all fireable from range and without needing anyone to run in and activate a synergy. But at least if it gets changed to ground targeting you will be able to do literally anything about it in a group setting. It will still get used, but other ultimates will be slightly more competitive and get used more often. And the whole "hold block and hope CC immunity actually works this time" just isn't going to cut it.

If this ultimate is supposed to be brought in line with other ultimates, they need to finish the job and put its damage, synergy, CC, etc. back in line with other ultimates. Or make it ground- targeted, I don't really care which at this point.

Ishammael · February 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Why should it be reflectable ?

Because it was and meteor was still considered a good ultimate.

Exactly.

I am going to re-state my solution:

"If its not reflect-able it should be ground-target just like Nova or Negate"

caeliusstarbreaker · February 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Why should it be reflectable ?

Because it was and meteor was still considered a good ultimate.

Exactly.

I am going to re-state my solution:

"If its not reflect-able it should be ground-target just like Nova or Negate"

Because high dmg ultimates that aren't dodgeable, reflectable, all classes reliably have a CC to go through block (except templar as far as easy button) has a dot attached, has a CC itself, returns ulti/has snare and grants empowered should have a counter besides... Try to hold block and hope it doesn't CC, try to CC break after you inevitably get fear, fossilize, streak, lum shards (lawl) renders that defense useless.

DjSolJAH · February 2016

If someone throws a meteor at you..... Block

RoamingRiverElk · February 2016

DjSolJAH wrote: »

If someone throws a meteor at you..... Block

And simply die to the burst if A) the player has a lot of damage or B ) more than player is attacking you at the same time?

Because as we know, there are more than one skill in this game that FORCE YOU to drop block, and they're used in PvP all the time.

It's incredibly strange that at this point in the thread, someone would even be suggesting blocking as an answer to this ultimate, when its huge initial hit cannot be dodge rolled or reflected, and in most cases, blocked either.

Magicka sorcerers will be fine even after this nonsensical change, other builds will not, including nightblade builds, because even though you can cloak from meteor, there will now be big counters to cloak to prevent you from doing that too.

And for the record: I play a magicka sorcerer a lot in PvP, and I do not want this change.

The excuse that this ultimate is now brought in line with other ultimates simply fails in so many ways, which have been pointed out many times in this thread and others. How many times do they need to be repeated to the devs for them to understand how this change will simplify gameplay way too much in favor of simple damage over any defenses? HOW is it interesting to play a game where there are no counters to things and damage = numbers rule over skill???

Recremen · February 2016

DjSolJAH wrote: »

If someone throws a meteor at you..... Block

I feel like you aren't reading anything else in the thread, the reason that doesn't work/isn't enough has been covered.

mrdankles · February 2016

Ultimate means ultimate for a reason? Bro

RoamingRiverElk · February 2016

Ultimate doesn't mean you should automatically have a very high chance to kill stuff, whoever gets that ultimate burst to go off first. Defensive builds are getting nerfed so badly in the meta it's astounding. This is a huge step towards damage ruling all.

Jeezye · February 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Why should it be reflectable ?

Because it was and meteor was still considered a good ultimate.

Exactly.

I am going to re-state my solution:

"If its not reflect-able it should be ground-target just like Nova or Negate"

Actually I think this idea is brilliant. The thing is, meteor hits all people standing around you and leaves a strong AoE effect. It actually doesn't make sense at all that Meteor follows a specific target. If it's casted on the ground with like a 1 sec delay, you'll be able to dodgeroll, streak or shadow swap away from it while also increasing the difficulty of aiming. This would make the skill way harder to use, you'll have to chain it with a stun and it leaves more counterplays too it.

Gave a big upvote for that, hope fellas will join me on that manner. This is actually the most intuitive and reasonable change they could do.

Btw I think they have to increase the cost and dmg, since throwing a meteor should be hella impactful.

Ishammael · February 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Why should it be reflectable ?

Because it was and meteor was still considered a good ultimate.

Exactly.

I am going to re-state my solution:

"If its not reflect-able it should be ground-target just like Nova or Negate"

Because high dmg ultimates that aren't dodgeable, reflectable, all classes reliably have a CC to go through block (except templar as far as easy button) has a dot attached, has a CC itself, returns ulti/has snare and grants empowered should have a counter besides... Try to hold block and hope it doesn't CC, try to CC break after you inevitably get fear, fossilize, streak, lum shards (lawl) renders that defense useless.

Rhage, I'm gonna be honest I don't know what you are trying to say.

Kas · February 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

tbh, i think meteor is fine non-reflectable (not planning to use it unless the blob meta remains despite deto changes + vicious death). it punishes balls and is still fairly week 1v1, because of the tell. Everyone can block the initial impact and then dodge out of it, shield users can apply shields beforehand, those with selfheal can take care that they are at full life. I agree that a combination with fear/fossilize/etc is a though one, but again: you see it coming and can bepreapre.

if they changes it to a ground target, it would either be the worst ultimate ever (with the tell) or actually much stronger than it is now (if they removed the visual tell). imho, the current state is the most balanced, followed by the one one live servers. ground targetting makes it either *** tier (like pre 1.6) or godly and then actually imbalanced (without a tell)

You let in the visual cue and speed up the time before impact... doesn't seem that difficult to me.
And btw, zergballs ran around without detonation and it's not as if you'd lose damage by using stell tornado instead, Vicious Death actually needs enemies to die before it does anything, so have fun running Meteor I guess.

?
with deto changes i mean that very few players + siege may be able to seriously challenge big blobs. further, lower steeltornado range, barrier changes, etc. i have no idea if it's gonna be enough, but the patch certainly punishes grouping up (not loosely running with your entire faction, but at least balling up is certainly punished).

I still don't think unreflectable meteor is too much of a problem. I really find the super long visual cue to be enough to cope with it quite well. Personally, I think dawnbreaker, soul harvest, leap, and maybe even overload will still be used nearly as often as meteor, probably more. if anything the mage guild's passive max magicka is one of the better reasons for meteor on magicka builds. ofc, that doesn't mean that there are still TONS of ultimates that need love (a lot more than 2.2 meteor), i totally agree on that part

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

I think now that Meteor is not reflectable the knockback should be removed.

I think that makes it fair, it does high damage and a DOT but no knockback. I think thats really all that needs to be done now, but im not sure they will do that.

Recremen · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I think now that Meteor is not reflectable the knockback should be removed.

I think that makes it fair, it does high damage and a DOT but no knockback. I think thats really all that needs to be done now, but im not sure they will do that.

That would also fix the problem, yeah.

ToRelax · February 2016

Recremen wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I think now that Meteor is not reflectable the knockback should be removed.

I think that makes it fair, it does high damage and a DOT but no knockback. I think thats really all that needs to be done now, but im not sure they will do that.

That would also fix the problem, yeah.

No, it would not - who cares wether Meteor has a cc attached to it or not when he can just cast an unbreakable cc on the target before the impact anyway?

Mumyo · February 2016

TheM0rganism wrote: »

MINDFUL, SKILLED GAME PLAY HAS NO PLACE IN REWARDING PVP CONTENT!

ULTIMATES SHOULD HAVE NO COUNTER!

UNLESS IT'S SOUL STRIKE, DIRECTIONAL, BUGGED, NEGATED, OR BELONGING TO A TEMPLAR, IN WHICH CASE IT'S PROBABLY USELESS ANYWAY!

DID I MENTION SOUL STRIKE IS STILL INTERRUPTABLE!?!

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAGBLADE BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

Templar Ults, so good! xD The 1meter range buff to sweep will do

Recremen · February 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I think now that Meteor is not reflectable the knockback should be removed.

I think that makes it fair, it does high damage and a DOT but no knockback. I think thats really all that needs to be done now, but im not sure they will do that.

That would also fix the problem, yeah.

No, it would not - who cares wether Meteor has a cc attached to it or not when he can just cast an unbreakable cc on the target before the impact anyway?

Because Meteor is most broken in group play and that's where all the complaints are really coming from. Sure, it's still pretty great in dueling or whatever, but it's the coordinated cast of large numbers of meteors that has been causing problems, and will cause worse problems in the future. A single-target CC plus some burst damage isn't the worst thing in the world, but when an enemy group is all dropping unavoidable follow-you-anywhere AoE burst and AoE CC with a single ultimate, you run into problems, especially when lag kicks in hard (which, let's be honest, is more frequent than infrequent). So for every meteor cast, 6 of your group members risk going up into the air. Oh, it's fine, they can block! Except for every CC there's a chance the CC immunity will simply fail because of the lag, and that's 6 CC per meteor, and several meteors. What ends up happening is you'll be blocking, have immovable pots up, and doing all the right things, but then you get ping-ponged around the screen anyway because of how unreliable the CC immunity is.

Currently, if people are trying to run this against you, you can have a really brave or foolish DK run Guard and Reflective Scales and just try to reflect all the meteors back at the group dropping them on you in unison. This does not work perfectly, and the DK usually dies in the process, but it somewhat levels the playing field because a handful of the meteors get reflected back and it's just a CC/burst crapshoot where everyone loses. My guild only had to put up with the coordinated drops fro a few days before our opponents caught wise and stopped the BS. Now we still get meteored, but they have to spread it out so there's less risk. Sometimes, we'll even see ultimates that aren't Meteor!! Not often, though.

Next patch, however, that all changes, and it will jsut be meteors for days from everyone forever.

Didgerion · February 2016

Here are the reasons it is not be reflectable (as per my understanding)

1. It is a meteor - even if it is reflectable it should be reflected to the sky.
2. This ability is extremely loud, shiny and very slow - it is too easy to reflect it and too punishable for the caster to end up eating his own ultimate.
3. You'd say l2p and choose your target - I say l2p and counter the meteor - you have ton of time to buff you up to put snare immunity to block and to get out of meteor area

The only con argument is:
How dare they take away the the fun part(meteor reflect) from the DKs now!... when they are just back in business!!
And all other l2p arguments are brought to the forums just to disguise this real con (selfish) part that all DKs are really concerned with.

Recremen · February 2016

Didgerion wrote: »

Here are the reasons it is not be reflectable (as per my understanding)

1. It is a meteor - even if it is reflectable it should be reflected to the sky.
2. This ability is extremely loud, shiny and very slow - it is too easy to reflect it and too punishable for the caster to end up eating his own ultimate.
3. You'd say l2p and choose your target - I say l2p and counter the meteor - you have ton of time to buff you up to put snare immunity to block and to get out of meteor area

The only con argument is:
How dare they take away the the fun part(meteor reflect) from the DKs now!... when they are just back in business!!
And all other l2p arguments are brought to the forums just to disguise this real con (selfish) part that all DKs are really concerned with.

Actually, two classes have a reflect against meteor, along with everyone running with a shield and slotting the reflect skill, so trying to pin this on DKs is incorrect.

If you actually read other posts here, you'd see that the "buff and block" rhetoric is a house of straw, and that the skill needs a significant rework. It already needs a rework on live, but reflectable meteors at least mitigate the issue. Now that they will not be reflectable, the whole things needs to get looked at again.