Why did they make Meteor un-reflectable? I don't see the sense of it.

dsalter · February 2016

the only thing i can think of is less lag, but the problem is. by making it so effective more people will try cluster bomb with it which will actually create MORE lag in itself, defeating that goal.

and since it does a hefty blow and is moderately cheap, it'll be a no brainer for people to mass use. creating more of the lag we are trying to avoid.

any other reasons this change is here? as it's obviously staying.
in which case is there also any plans to make it so it's not the obvious choice of ultimate for most situations?

hrothbern · February 2016

dsalter wrote: »

the only thing i can think of is less lag, but the problem is. by making it so effective more people will try cluster bomb with it which will actually create MORE lag in itself, defeating that goal.

and since it does a hefty blow and is moderately cheap, it'll be a no brainer for people to mass use. creating more of the lag we are trying to avoid.

any other reasons this change is here? as it's obviously staying.
in which case is there also any plans to make it so it's not the obvious choice of ultimate for most situations?

@dsalter ,

Given it is not reflectable... for a fact.
Given it will be used more... as you say.
Given it will be used in combi's.... as you say.

How will it force you to defend ?
What are your options to defend ?

Because that is your answer why it will not be changed !

I'll help you with your first option:
Do nothing on the defense.... and die regular by it.

dsalter · February 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

the only thing i can think of is less lag, but the problem is. by making it so effective more people will try cluster bomb with it which will actually create MORE lag in itself, defeating that goal.

and since it does a hefty blow and is moderately cheap, it'll be a no brainer for people to mass use. creating more of the lag we are trying to avoid.

any other reasons this change is here? as it's obviously staying.
in which case is there also any plans to make it so it's not the obvious choice of ultimate for most situations?

@dsalter ,

Given it is not reflectable... for a fact.
Given it will be used more... as you say.
Given it will be used in combi's.... as you say.

How will it force you to defend ?
What are your options to defend ?

Because that is your answer why it will not be changed !

I'll help you with your first option:
Do nothing on the defense.... and die regular by it.

i'm not complaining, i'm actually all for it but the thing is then is they left it in it's powerhouse state and now with a core way to not get wasted by it is now done with it'll become an issue when chain "bombed" by them, yes this can help with zergs but it's also zerg abusable, and given each drop causes a knock back, if times right can cause one hell of a lag spike as seen in the past

lolo_01b16_ESO · February 2016

They removed double reflects from the game (which was a bad decision imo, but that doesn't belong here). So to keep meteor usefull in PvP they had to make it unreflectable. Otherwise ever dk and 1h/shield user would have a cheap hardcounter to a high cost ultimate.

hrothbern · February 2016

dsalter wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

the only thing i can think of is less lag, but the problem is. by making it so effective more people will try cluster bomb with it which will actually create MORE lag in itself, defeating that goal.

and since it does a hefty blow and is moderately cheap, it'll be a no brainer for people to mass use. creating more of the lag we are trying to avoid.

any other reasons this change is here? as it's obviously staying.
in which case is there also any plans to make it so it's not the obvious choice of ultimate for most situations?

@dsalter ,

Given it is not reflectable... for a fact.
Given it will be used more... as you say.
Given it will be used in combi's.... as you say.

How will it force you to defend ?
What are your options to defend ?

Because that is your answer why it will not be changed !

I'll help you with your first option:
Do nothing on the defense.... and die regular by it.

i'm not complaining, i'm actually all for it but the thing is then is they left it in it's powerhouse state and now with a core way to not get wasted by it is now done with it'll become an issue when chain "bombed" by them, yes this can help with zergs but it's also zerg abusable, and given each drop causes a knock back, if times right can cause one hell of a lag spike as seen in the past

IDK whether meteor will increase lag.
For me that is another issue, to be adressed in another way.
I like the effect on gameplay, whereby builds without any decent defense options are blasted away on a regular way.Because that is IMO the sense of this unreflectable meteor.

Not to mention the amount of fun I had, as NB tank, levelling my Caltrops.....
when being chain attacked by meteors, by players that just wasted their preciously saved up meteors
too bad I could not see their faces... on my face a big grin

RoamingRiverElk · February 2016

The change will affect overall balance of the game very negatively. For such a powerful ultimate, there needed to be ways to counter it. Blocking and damage shields simply cannot be the only way to defend against it, when

1) powerful damage shields are not available to all, and
2) there are skills which make you stop blocking and there is *nothing* you can do about it.

The initial hit must now be able to be avoided by dodge rolling.

david.haypreub18_ESO · February 2016

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

The change will affect overall balance of the game very negatively. For such a powerful ultimate, there needed to be ways to counter it. Blocking and damage shields simply cannot be the only way to defend against it, when

1) powerful damage shields are not available to all, and
2) there are skills which make you stop blocking and there is *nothing* you can do about it.

The initial hit must now be able to be avoided by dodge rolling.

I think you are forgetting that this is Wrobel's idea of a good PvP meta. He has systematically been nerfing anything that gets in the way of DPS.

Health stops DPS from killing someone? We'll have to not scale health as much as we do magicka and stamina when we do the update to 1.6. Blocking stops DPS from killing someone? We'll have to nerf all blocking by preventing stamina regeneration. Breath of Life stops DPS from killing someone? We'll have to nerf BoL. Shields stop DPS from killing someone? We'll have to consider giving all shields cast times and/or reducing them so you can only have one active at a time (things he mentioned in the last ESO live).

Wrobel views the game from a DPS perspective. From such a perspective, DPS is always fun; blocking, shields, health and anything else that gets in the way of making combat a pure, Wrecking-Blow spamming DPS race is not fun.

Cinnamon_Spider · February 2016

Because meteors are Wrobel's seeds and he wants to make sure they are spread on everyone.

Cogo · February 2016

A huge poweful kenetic energy hits you, which create earthquakes.

Reflect that? Anyone who stands under a meteor should be one shotted, or at least knocked away.

If you want that reflected, rename it to something else.

davey1107 · February 2016

The Meteor changes will be good.

The purpose is to break up zergs. Right now, pvp runs in the same booooooooooring cycle...get a wall down, Rush the beach, get a wall down, Rush. Any Zerg with some decent players reflect every meteor on the way in.

By removing the reflect, groups have to make a decision - do they rush, with their AOE and attacks focused in an unstop able wall, or do they spread out? There is now a risk to zerging the breach - if several defenders have meteor saved up (and I will), two or three landing on a compacted Zerg...ka-BOOM. Bwa ha ha.

Offensively this won't be as big a change, although it should encourage defenders to spread out too. But if you're talking defenders up on a wall, usually they don't cluster in tight groups of 20.

This is all about getting rid of the stupid "on the crown! On the crown!" Mentality. See some of the other changes that encourage the same, like the set that has a chance to proc 15k damage to everyone standing around a Kill. Ouch.

As to lag, it's possible that issues with the meteor changes can be addressed behind the scenes, by doing things like changing the order the system calculates damage, involving less objects in the world, removing redundant calculations, etc.

ToRelax · February 2016

davey1107 wrote: »

The Meteor changes will be good.

The purpose is to break up zergs. Right now, pvp runs in the same booooooooooring cycle...get a wall down, Rush the beach, get a wall down, Rush. Any Zerg with some decent players reflect every meteor on the way in.

By removing the reflect, groups have to make a decision - do they rush, with their AOE and attacks focused in an unstop able wall, or do they spread out? There is now a risk to zerging the breach - if several defenders have meteor saved up (and I will), two or three landing on a compacted Zerg...ka-BOOM. Bwa ha ha.

Offensively this won't be as big a change, although it should encourage defenders to spread out too. But if you're talking defenders up on a wall, usually they don't cluster in tight groups of 20.

This is all about getting rid of the stupid "on the crown! On the crown!" Mentality. See some of the other changes that encourage the same, like the set that has a chance to proc 15k damage to everyone standing around a Kill. Ouch.

As to lag, it's possible that issues with the meteor changes can be addressed behind the scenes, by doing things like changing the order the system calculates damage, involving less objects in the world, removing redundant calculations, etc.

There are enough players not reflecting meteors in a zerg...

Sarousse · February 2016

Devs stated that they're reverting it to reflectable again yersterday.

ToRelax · February 2016

Sarousse wrote: »

Devs stated that they're reverting it to reflectable again yersterday.

@Sarousse really, where?

edit: this is what i found yesterday...

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Still see that theirs no changes to make Meteor reflectable again.

Times running out ZOS.

We stated last week (and a couple weeks ago) that we have no plans to make Meteor reflectable again.

ShalidorsHeir · February 2016

hm i dont think that it should be relfectable now. Idiots *** should be relfected --> everyone will run on meteor spamming now ... cuz its easy go zergs / bigger groups andf there is no skill needed and you have no risks and and and and ^^

Docmandu · February 2016

Ice Comet is actually worth using now... before 4/4 classes just negated it with their basic slotted skills.

DK - flappy wings
Templar - Purifying Ritual
NB - Cloak
Sorc - well they actually took the hit, but probably had 2+ shields up so didn't really bother them either

Basically the default skills that all those classes have on their skill bar anyway.

Only way to get it to hit, was if you got lucky and the other guy was experiencing lag and unable to weapon swap to the correct skill bar... but lag never happens in this game.. so..

dsalter · February 2016

i can see them needing to increase the cost tho if values don't go down so it becomes more of a save it for the right moment ability rather than a use it when you can kind of ability

Cogo · February 2016

dsalter wrote: »

i can see them needing to increase the cost tho if values don't go down so it becomes more of a save it for the right moment ability rather than a use it when you can kind of ability

That is a pretty solid good suggestion.

ToRelax · February 2016

dsalter wrote: »

i can see them needing to increase the cost tho if values don't go down so it becomes more of a save it for the right moment ability rather than a use it when you can kind of ability

While the meta heavily favours burst damage I don't think it's such a good idea to create more of that by increasing both usefulness and cost of available burst damage skills. It won't help, except it would actually devalue the morph with lower burst.

dsalter · February 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

i can see them needing to increase the cost tho if values don't go down so it becomes more of a save it for the right moment ability rather than a use it when you can kind of ability

While the meta heavily favours burst damage I don't think it's such a good idea to create more of that by increasing both usefulness and cost of available burst damage skills. It won't help, except it would actually devalue the morph with lower burst.

but increasing the cost would make it less burst viable since it can't be used so much on demand since it would require alot of charge

Alucardo · February 2016

Their apparent reasoning was "Well, no other ultimate is reflectable". I guess they forgot about overload and howl of agony. So with all respect to ZOS, I think they were talking crap and that was not the real reason. I'm also curious to know exactly why this change was made.

Turelus · February 2016

I think it's a good idea and asked for it long ago. That doesn't meant it won't need adjusted numbers but really, should an ultimate be reflectable by a single class or 1H/S users only?

The state of PvP was that you had your ultimate then had to try and find the guy who isn't a DK or holding a sword and shield to be able to use it. Considering that in console and without add-ons there is no way to know someone's class at a glance (why do we still not have class icons on UI by standard?) it was all a guessing game.

I hope that we can see some changes to make Soul Assault non-purgable as well so that ultimate might be worth slotting again.

RoamingRiverElk · February 2016

Removing counters makes the game simpler and zergier. That's just the way it is when damage is KING and QUEEN and EMPEROR and EMPRESS and GALACTIC RULER.

ToRelax · February 2016

dsalter wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

i can see them needing to increase the cost tho if values don't go down so it becomes more of a save it for the right moment ability rather than a use it when you can kind of ability

While the meta heavily favours burst damage I don't think it's such a good idea to create more of that by increasing both usefulness and cost of available burst damage skills. It won't help, except it would actually devalue the morph with lower burst.

but increasing the cost would make it less burst viable since it can't be used so much on demand since it would require alot of charge

But that's the thing, the current meta demands burst damage because you can't run enemies out of resources. Making Meteor unreflectable makes it easier to use it to stack more brust damage, while increasing it's cost gives less room for failure, wich in turn means that players take further steps to make sure they kill people with it. What actually works against this meta in our case would be to provide an easily accessable counter (like making it reflectable or making it ground targeted so you can move out before the impact).

Ishammael · February 2016

It needs to be made ground-targeted if its not reflectable.

Dyride · February 2016

Fall Damage.

I bet it is still hiding in the code. Like a Daedra that you can only keep at bay for so long.

Good luck taking any stairs for the next 6 months.

Xeven · February 2016

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Because meteors are Wrobel's seeds and he wants to make sure they are spread on everyone.

I put a bit of my seed in every Meteor.

Haderus. See you in TG. Save some teabags for me.

contact.opiumb16_ESO · February 2016

Cogo wrote: »

A huge poweful kenetic energy hits you, which create earthquakes.

Reflect that? Anyone who stands under a meteor should be one shotted, or at least knocked away.

If you want that reflected, rename it to something else.

Haha ! My templar can summon a NOVA dude ! A NOVA !!!!!!! One single nova shall erase cyrodil from the map, definitly you know ? Templar OP ! NERF !!!

Recremen · February 2016

I'm hoping it's just step 1 in part of a larger change that turns it into a delayed-hit ground target instead of a player-targeted ability. The way it currently is on PTS, it does way more than any other ultimate, doesn't require synergy activation, and can't be escaped or planned for now matter how good you/your group is at maneuvering. It also doesn't require someone to run directly into the middle of enemy AoE to activate a synergy or anything like that. It's pretty silly on live, it's even sillier on PTS.

TheM0rganism · February 2016

MINDFUL, SKILLED GAME PLAY HAS NO PLACE IN REWARDING PVP CONTENT!

ULTIMATES SHOULD HAVE NO COUNTER!

UNLESS IT'S SOUL STRIKE, DIRECTIONAL, BUGGED, NEGATED, OR BELONGING TO A TEMPLAR, IN WHICH CASE IT'S PROBABLY USELESS ANYWAY!

DID I MENTION SOUL STRIKE IS STILL INTERRUPTABLE!?!

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAGBLADE BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

Minno · February 2016

This was the lesser evil.
The best option was to provide a reliable high dmg unique ulti for each class that performs as good as meteor. Then reduce meteor to a high volume fire/cold spell that shoots a range spell in a cone (reduce dmg and cost, but increased snare/healing reduction/whateverwhydoihavetodowrobelsjob)
But ZOS decided unreflective was the easiest to do.

I'll accept it, but it distracts from the discussion we should be having about class balance/ultimate balance.

Khaos_Bane · February 2016

Why should it be reflectable ?