VMSA set drop rate

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Yeah we need a better loot system, I have made my feelings on BiS difficulty very clear.

Buddy, that is what the rest of the thread has been talking about. We need a better loot system. Nobody is arguing to make this stuff easy to get. Nobody (I dont think) has suggested making this Maelstrom weapons BoE. It might make me selfish, but I love the fact that I have weapons others dont because I am able to clear the content. We just want there to be meaningful progression. We want a path outlined to obtain the things we want. Personally I think 100 clears for a weapon of your choosing is a little high. To me 20-30 clears seems about right. If you think about it, that is probably 30-50 hours for a very competent player to get a weapon, and most players want more than one thing out of this place. I dont think most people are consistantly clearing in less than 90 minutes. If you can, more power to you. Your extra skill means your path is a little shorter than the rest, but you still need to walk the path. That is how it should be.

Can you just let this die already? What you are proposing is not better. That is why I am forced to argue in favor of RNG. Please stop with your estimation of what feels right. 30 runs feels right to you, maybe too long for someone else.

@Derra was the only one productive enough to come up with a loot system idea that is not taking away the positive aspects of RNG.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw you clearly consistently miss the spirit of what I am trying to say. Yes we need a better loot system but what does that look like? I have no idea and I never did, so I would defer to RNG as a better system than what most are suggesting.

In short DO NOT CHANGE RNG until there is a real viable alternative that:

-Does not make loot easier to obtain
-Is fair for all classes & races & play styles
-Allows for the best players to have opportunity at exclusive rewards
-Allows for weaker players to still obtain BiS gear at a slower rate that advance players
-Cannot be influenced by gold buying/selling economy
-Provide continuing incentive to run content over the course of the game (seems I will run Spindle until end of time for a damn divine or impen helm)

and I am sure there are more aspects than even this. I am arguing RNG BOP does this...maybe not perfectly, but it satisfies those points on average. I am not saying RNG is the system we need, I am saying it is the system we deserve.

So your argument is that the current system is better because you personally don't like the alternatives. That is a terrible position from which to argue any topic, and it does nothing to further the dialogue about how to fix it. You said yourself we need a better loot system. Well, what in the world is your idea? I would love to hear it. You can't say that we both need a better loot system AND the current loot system is fine the way it is. The two ideas are in conflict. 20-30 clears might not be the right number, but at least I am trying to provide a constructive alternative AND giving a reason for my position.

Also, I disagree with some of your so called requirements:

-Does not make loot easier to obtain: Um, that is the whole point of this thread. Right now it is not a question of easy or hard, it is a question of Randomness and Fairness. If you can clear VMA once, clearing it 100 times is not more difficult. What we are proposing still takes the same skill level, but brings some balance into the amount of time for each player to complete their goals.

-Is fair for all classes & races & play styles: Wake up my friend, this is meaningless to this discussion. Whether we have a token system or pure RNG, it's easier for some builds to clear this than others. The quest for balance like this is a completely separate issue and one that will never be achieved unless we make all skills available to all classes and eliminate racial passives, which is a terrible idea IMO.

-Allows for the best players to have opportunity at exclusive rewards: Token system does exactly this!!! Again, nobody said make it BoE.

-Allows for weaker players to still obtain BiS gear at a slower rate that advance players: This is in direct conflict to the previous statement. Anyone clearing VMA is by definition not a weak player. Weaker players are not going to clear VMA and get the rewards unless you nerf the content, make the weapons BoE, or offer them in other content. Nobody is suggesting we do that, and a token system certainly does not do that.

-Cannot be influenced by gold buying/selling economy: BoP takes care of this. A token system does nothing to bring gold into the equation unless you start talking about paid for runs. That violates the ToS and is a problem with both RNG and a token system.

-Provide continuing incentive to run content over the course of the game: There is no denying that RNG acts as an incentive. But so does a token system. Not all incentives are good. This is a game and something most of us do for fun. I prefer an incentive that rewards rather than one that punishes. Right now we have the later.

As for you last statement saying "I am not saying RNG is the system we need, I am saying it is the system we deserve." I have no idea what in the world you are getting at. Maybe you are some sort of self loathing masochist, i have no idea. If so, seek help, please. This is not about need vs deserve. Its about how to make a freaking video game fun and rewarding for the people that play it. The overwhelming consensus is that the current system does neither.

Derra · February 2016

On top of the beforementioned token + rgn system they could reintroduce gold jewelry to weeklys again because while weapons (unarguably mandatory for true endgame builds) would become obtainable with a time factor (or luck) gold jewels would still be exclusive to players that are able to complete with a top 100 score (but as leaderboards are class based it would circumvent the class imbalance problems).

Imo this would only make the system better.

DDemon · February 2016

You lot seem to have very interesting and long winded discussions about this topic, let me just state that this is a _game_ and is intended to be fun.

Regardless of what you may or may not think of the gear drop, vMA is a chore and completely unfun to do, if you want to get the maelstrom weapons, you _have_ to run it over and over and over.

I ran the arena several times, last 5 runs I got no weapon drops at all. This is so demotivating for me, that I have yet to run this stupid arena again. It's been 2 weeks and I still have no intention of running it again.

The least they could do is add some sort of token system where you get to open a fault to pick up a random maelstrom weapon after x amount of runs, as they have with vWGT and vICP.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Yeah we need a better loot system, I have made my feelings on BiS difficulty very clear.

Buddy, that is what the rest of the thread has been talking about. We need a better loot system. Nobody is arguing to make this stuff easy to get. Nobody (I dont think) has suggested making this Maelstrom weapons BoE. It might make me selfish, but I love the fact that I have weapons others dont because I am able to clear the content. We just want there to be meaningful progression. We want a path outlined to obtain the things we want. Personally I think 100 clears for a weapon of your choosing is a little high. To me 20-30 clears seems about right. If you think about it, that is probably 30-50 hours for a very competent player to get a weapon, and most players want more than one thing out of this place. I dont think most people are consistantly clearing in less than 90 minutes. If you can, more power to you. Your extra skill means your path is a little shorter than the rest, but you still need to walk the path. That is how it should be.

Can you just let this die already? What you are proposing is not better. That is why I am forced to argue in favor of RNG. Please stop with your estimation of what feels right. 30 runs feels right to you, maybe too long for someone else.

@Derra was the only one productive enough to come up with a loot system idea that is not taking away the positive aspects of RNG.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw you clearly consistently miss the spirit of what I am trying to say. Yes we need a better loot system but what does that look like? I have no idea and I never did, so I would defer to RNG as a better system than what most are suggesting.

In short DO NOT CHANGE RNG until there is a real viable alternative that:

-Does not make loot easier to obtain
-Is fair for all classes & races & play styles
-Allows for the best players to have opportunity at exclusive rewards
-Allows for weaker players to still obtain BiS gear at a slower rate that advance players
-Cannot be influenced by gold buying/selling economy
-Provide continuing incentive to run content over the course of the game (seems I will run Spindle until end of time for a damn divine or impen helm)

and I am sure there are more aspects than even this. I am arguing RNG BOP does this...maybe not perfectly, but it satisfies those points on average. I am not saying RNG is the system we need, I am saying it is the system we deserve.

So your argument is that the current system is better because you personally don't like the alternatives. That is a terrible position from which to argue any topic, and it does nothing to further the dialogue about how to fix it. You said yourself we need a better loot system. Well, what in the world is your idea? I would love to hear it. You can't say that we both need a better loot system AND the current loot system is fine the way it is. The two ideas are in conflict. 20-30 clears might not be the right number, but at least I am trying to provide a constructive alternative AND giving a reason for my position.

Also, I disagree with some of your so called requirements:

-Does not make loot easier to obtain: Um, that is the whole point of this thread. Right now it is not a question of easy or hard, it is a question of Randomness and Fairness. If you can clear VMA once, clearing it 100 times is not more difficult. What we are proposing still takes the same skill level, but brings some balance into the amount of time for each player to complete their goals.

-Is fair for all classes & races & play styles: Wake up my friend, this is meaningless to this discussion. Whether we have a token system or pure RNG, it's easier for some builds to clear this than others. The quest for balance like this is a completely separate issue and one that will never be achieved unless we make all skills available to all classes and eliminate racial passives, which is a terrible idea IMO.

-Allows for the best players to have opportunity at exclusive rewards: Token system does exactly this!!! Again, nobody said make it BoE.

-Allows for weaker players to still obtain BiS gear at a slower rate that advance players: This is in direct conflict to the previous statement. Anyone clearing VMA is by definition not a weak player. Weaker players are not going to clear VMA and get the rewards unless you nerf the content, make the weapons BoE, or offer them in other content. Nobody is suggesting we do that, and a token system certainly does not do that.

-Cannot be influenced by gold buying/selling economy: BoP takes care of this. A token system does nothing to bring gold into the equation unless you start talking about paid for runs. That violates the ToS and is a problem with both RNG and a token system.

-Provide continuing incentive to run content over the course of the game: There is no denying that RNG acts as an incentive. But so does a token system. Not all incentives are good. This is a game and something most of us do for fun. I prefer an incentive that rewards rather than one that punishes. Right now we have the later.

As for you last statement saying "I am not saying RNG is the system we need, I am saying it is the system we deserve." I have no idea what in the world you are getting at. Maybe you are some sort of self loathing masochist, i have no idea. If so, seek help, please. This is not about need vs deserve. Its about how to make a freaking video game fun and rewarding for the people that play it. The overwhelming consensus is that the current system does neither.

Dude you are a joke. I never said the current system was perfect, in fact I admitted it was not. I also admitted I do not have any better ideas, what is WHY I am arguing for RNG.

So let me rip you apart one last time:

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

So your argument is that the current system is better because you personally don't like the alternatives. That is a terrible position from which to argue any topic, and it does nothing to further the dialogue about how to fix it. You said yourself we need a better loot system. Well, what in the world is your idea? I would love to hear it. You can't say that we both need a better loot system AND the current loot system is fine the way it is. The two ideas are in conflict. 20-30 clears might not be the right number, but at least I am trying to provide a constructive alternative AND giving a reason for my position.

You did not read what I wrote. I clearly stated I do not have a better idea, that is why I am arguing in favor of RNG. If an idea gets proposed that is an improvement in my opinion, I acknowledge it. (Shout out to @Derra) What is even worse is the dialog you want to have is full of a bunch of half baked ideas that would benefit you and you alone without looking at the player base as a whole. I never said the loot system is fine, stop putting words in my mouth. I said the current system is better than proposed alternatives save @Derra suggestion.

You are not being constructive you are being argumentative for I dunno what reason. Instead of providing ways a loot system could be implemented you are just putting straw-man "anti-rng" arguments. That is not constructive, and a token system is not a novel idea....sorry.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Does not make loot easier to obtain: Um, that is the whole point of this thread. Right now it is not a question of easy or hard, it is a question of Randomness and Fairness. If you can clear VMA once, clearing it 100 times is not more difficult. What we are proposing still takes the same skill level, but brings some balance into the amount of time for each player to complete their goals.

We just stated that there is a imbalance in terms of vMSA difficulty between classes.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Is fair for all classes & races & play styles: Wake up my friend, this is meaningless to this discussion. Whether we have a token system or pure RNG, it's easier for some builds to clear this than others. The quest for balance like this is a completely separate issue and one that will never be achieved unless we make all skills available to all classes and eliminate racial passives, which is a terrible idea IMO.

Your ability to miss general concepts is astounding. No wonder you struggle.

RNG is fair for all in that it is unfair and unforgiving to all. Regardless of race or build. You may have more opportunities at the RNG wheel as a sorc but in general the fact that a Templar, Sorc, DK or NB could get a piece of loot on the first run is as fair as I can see anything being. Everyone has equal chance when they complete the content. It may be a crappy chance for all but it is still even. The balance issues you refer to I just called out as to why token based systems would be inherently unfair. 30 runs on a sorc is not the same as 30 runs on a magic DK. However under the current system they both have a chance to get their gear they need on the 1st or 2nd run.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Allows for the best players to have opportunity at exclusive rewards: Token system does exactly this!!! Again, nobody said make it BoE.

It depends on how a token system is implemented. I never said a token system couldn't account for some of these points I just stated that the RNG is the one that that successfully meets most of the criteria over a larger population of players. A tekn system done right is not a bad thing (shout out @Derra )

Not only that but there are those that would take issue with saying that BOP is the answer. Many people would like to have a system that was all BOE. Do we owe it to those players to think of a system that can have a positive effect on the ESO economy? BOP is not a permanent solution but it prevents some forms of abuse that are currently in the game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Allows for weaker players to still obtain BiS gear at a slower rate that advance players: This is in direct conflict to the previous statement. Anyone clearing VMA is by definition not a weak player. Weaker players are not going to clear VMA and get the rewards unless you nerf the content, make the weapons BoE, or offer them in other content. Nobody is suggesting we do that, and a token system certainly does not do that.

I had to laugh at this one a bit. Its clear you think that you are a decent player because you can complete the arena. I am sorry, but that is not the case. Depending on class, CP level and a host of other things, beating the arena can be hard or not so hard. I am not trying to pick on any class or play style but the arena is very challenging to some and not very challenging to others. Do I look at a magic DK and a magic sorc the same if they both have Stormproof or flawless conquerer? No...I hope you wouldn't either. One of those was significantly harder to obtain in my opinion, but I also don't have a sorc and have nothing against the class. Just echoing sentiment.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Cannot be influenced by gold buying/selling economy: BoP takes care of this. A token system does nothing to bring gold into the equation unless you start talking about paid for runs. That violates the ToS and is a problem with both RNG and a token system.

Once again....its not that a token system cant do these things....just....sigh....

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

-Provide continuing incentive to run content over the course of the game: There is no denying that RNG acts as an incentive. But so does a token system. Not all incentives are good. This is a game and something most of us do for fun. I prefer an incentive that rewards rather than one that punishes. Right now we have the later.

I agree with your sentiment, not sure the best way to implement without causing a mess.

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

As for you last statement saying "I am not saying RNG is the system we need, I am saying it is the system we deserve." I have no idea what in the world you are getting at. Maybe you are some sort of self loathing masochist, i have no idea. If so, seek help, please. This is not about need vs deserve. Its about how to make a freaking video game fun and rewarding for the people that play it. The overwhelming consensus is that the current system does neither.

This argument is always a go to for care bears. At what point does working for something make it no longer fun and rewarding? I thought working for something and getting it was the most rewarding thing you could do?

You speak about the people who play it, wouldn't that include myself and all those who think like me? Please get over yourself man. You are acting like your the only one who hit a hard RNG hustle.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

DDemon wrote: »

You lot seem to have very interesting and long winded discussions about this topic, let me just state that this is a _game_ and is intended to be fun.

Regardless of what you may or may not think of the gear drop, vMA is a chore and completely unfun to do, if you want to get the maelstrom weapons, you _have_ to run it over and over and over.

I ran the arena several times, last 5 runs I got no weapon drops at all. This is so demotivating for me, that I have yet to run this stupid arena again. It's been 2 weeks and I still have no intention of running it again.

The least they could do is add some sort of token system where you get to open a fault to pick up a random maelstrom weapon after x amount of runs, as they have with vWGT and vICP.

I had fun. These blanket statements are so strange...... I know quite a few people who had fun in the arena. There are so many people who play this game, I assure you the guy who doesn't like to group probably not on the forums. Why can't the arena be for them? We already established the weapons are not necessary.

Why is something invalid because there a certain player population that doesn't like it?

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Derra wrote: »

On top of the beforementioned token + rgn system they could reintroduce gold jewelry to weeklys again because while weapons (unarguably mandatory for true endgame builds) would become obtainable with a time factor (or luck) gold jewels would still be exclusive to players that are able to complete with a top 100 score (but as leaderboards are class based it would circumvent the class imbalance problems).

Imo this would only make the system better.

@Derra Yes and Yes.

Though I disagree the weapons are mandatory. People are confusing need and want way too much.

There was a Stamplar build put up the other day (yesterday I think) 4.1k weapon damage.....no maelstrom weapons with S&B. He could not of done that with an arena setup.

Regardless @Derra I feel your suggestion was the most positive and practical of the whole thread. Thanks.

Derra · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

On top of the beforementioned token + rgn system they could reintroduce gold jewelry to weeklys again because while weapons (unarguably mandatory for true endgame builds) would become obtainable with a time factor (or luck) gold jewels would still be exclusive to players that are able to complete with a top 100 score (but as leaderboards are class based it would circumvent the class imbalance problems).

Imo this would only make the system better.

@Derra Yes and Yes.

Though I disagree the weapons are mandatory. People are confusing need and want way too much.

There was a Stamplar build put up the other day (yesterday I think) 4.1k weapon damage.....no maelstrom weapons with S&B. He could not of done that with an arena setup.

Regardless @Derra I feel your suggestion was the most positive and practical of the whole thread. Thanks.

Thanks for the kind words!

Agreed weapons are not mandatory for every build. For magica builds (especially with wall of elements buff next patch) aswell as stamina builds with offbar bow (volley) they kind of are in competetive endgame atleast on static or semistatic fights.

Ofc this isn´t relevant for 99% of the content apart from getting vmsa and trial leaderboard spots. So i admit that mandatory is very subjective anyway. For the build i´m interested in they are

yake82 · February 2016

Too many words in this thread....

I think better solution for final reward would be to give player a choice. 3 random pieces: 1 jewelry, 1 armor and 1 weapon piece. Player could pick one.

DDemon · February 2016

yake82 wrote: »

Too many words in this thread....

I think better solution for final reward would be to give player a choice. 3 random pieces: 1 jewelry, 1 armor and 1 weapon piece. Player could pick one.

Or simply a key that can open 1 of 3 chests at the place where you hand in the quest. You can then pick from a weapon, jewelry or armor chest?

You are right about the lengthy discussions here, there is something as too much discussion about something simple. While I won't deny there might be people that actually have fun running vMA multiple times, I have yet to meet one.

@Seido_Tensei_

Every single person I have spoken to, did not like running the vMA, it was too aggravating and time consuming. To then also have no drops at all when you open the end chest, after spending hours completing the arena, is seriously demotivating. If you can't see an issue with this, I don't know what I can say to convince you.

We have already established these weapons are not needed, however, they are a part of the game and can make a character more powerful, so off course people want them. I just feel like people should have at least a decent shot at getting _something_ of value out of the end chest. It does take at least a full hour to complete this arena, and to then only lose money on it.. well, makes that part of the game so much less fun to do.

TLDR:

If you invest a good amount of time in something, there should be a reward, even if it might not be something you need or have use for. In my opinion token system would be the best solution.

Function · February 2016

The RNG system is complete trash.. I have wasted WEEKS, I mean actual /played weeks of my life in vMA in the attempt to get my sharpened inferno staff yet I still don't have it... am I any closer to getting it from all that effort? Nope. Each run I do I have the same exact incredibly low odds of getting it, there is no progression towards getting it, just pure luck.

willymchilybily · February 2016

The people demand a token system to go with existing RNG. Tokens earned limits and token requirements still subject to debate.

side not: I worry its going to be a worse grind now for hardcore players, with the vMaelstrom quest/save function preventing instantly re-running the content much how the normal is now. You will have a certain wait period between runs.

But im fine with that its a + for the health benefits of taking breaks and good for the average player who wants to slowly work towards a completion. and least i can stop and help guildies without losing progress

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

DDemon wrote: »

yake82 wrote: »

Too many words in this thread....

I think better solution for final reward would be to give player a choice. 3 random pieces: 1 jewelry, 1 armor and 1 weapon piece. Player could pick one.

Or simply a key that can open 1 of 3 chests at the place where you hand in the quest. You can then pick from a weapon, jewelry or armor chest?

You are right about the lengthy discussions here, there is something as too much discussion about something simple. While I won't deny there might be people that actually have fun running vMA multiple times, I have yet to meet one.

@Seido_Tensei_

Every single person I have spoken to, did not like running the vMA, it was too aggravating and time consuming. To then also have no drops at all when you open the end chest, after spending hours completing the arena, is seriously demotivating. If you can't see an issue with this, I don't know what I can say to convince you.

We have already established these weapons are not needed, however, they are a part of the game and can make a character more powerful, so off course people want them. I just feel like people should have at least a decent shot at getting _something_ of value out of the end chest. It does take at least a full hour to complete this arena, and to then only lose money on it.. well, makes that part of the game so much less fun to do.

TLDR:

If you invest a good amount of time in something, there should be a reward, even if it might not be something you need or have use for. In my opinion token system would be the best solution.

@DDemon This whole post reeks of dramatics. I am sure you have talked with 100's of people on the matter as well.

I enjoyed the arena, I know many others who also enjoy the arena. Clearly we are speaking with different people.

A stage 9 chest almost certainly drops something of value. It may not be what you want, but to say you get nothing of value after running the arena is just silly. Not only that what about leader board rewards?

If you are doing arena runs in an hour in cannot possibly be that much of a gold sink.

I have stated several times I have been victim of bad rng. Specifically in the arena during my first runs (which were the longest), so no you argument of "but I spent an hour" is not convincing at all.

I am not even going to address the open token system....its just a trash idea. Should of let this thread end on the high note of @Derra

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

yake82 wrote: »

Too many words in this thread....

I think better solution for final reward would be to give player a choice. 3 random pieces: 1 jewelry, 1 armor and 1 weapon piece. Player could pick one.

A guaranteed weapon drop for round 9....when there is already a guaranteed weapon from the leader board...right...

Who would actually pick the armor given that is what drops most frequently from rounds 1-8?

Automatic rewards are too easy. Anyone can limp through the arena....its just not that hard.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Function wrote: »

The RNG system is complete trash.. I have wasted WEEKS, I mean actual /played weeks of my life in vMA in the attempt to get my sharpened inferno staff yet I still don't have it... am I any closer to getting it from all that effort? Nope. Each run I do I have the same exact incredibly low odds of getting it, there is no progression towards getting it, just pure luck.

Ya I got nothing to say about the inferno staff, I have never seen it. Don't know anyone who has it. I got no defense of RNG here..... you guys are getting screwed. Did anyone at ZOS look into the drop rate?

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

willymchilybily wrote: »

The people demand a token system to go with existing RNG. Tokens earned limits and token requirements still subject to debate.

side not: I worry its going to be a worse grind now for hardcore players, with the vMaelstrom quest/save function preventing instantly re-running the content much how the normal is now. You will have a certain wait period between runs.

But im fine with that its a + for the health benefits of taking breaks and good for the average player who wants to slowly work towards a completion. and least i can stop and help guildies without losing progress

@willymchilybily Yeah to me this is disappointing. Just because it is further proof how seemingly simple requests can have ramifications for other player groups. People ask for changes that benefit them without thought to how other groups would be affected or have their enjoyment impacted.

I can't do consecutive runs....I don't have the attention span, but to prevent someone who enjoys doing so....just so people can have a save function....doesn't seem fair. The content is able to be completed as it is now, players do it every day. I really wonder how much the clear rate will go up with the save function....... and if it will be worth it.

People always say...."making something easier to get does not impact those who have already succeeded"...well that is just not true. I just think of all those guys with Kena helms that will almost certainly be impacted by the undaunted vendor in cyrodil. Yeah they got to enjoy the gear for the past few months, but after TG, you cannot tell if the guy wearing Kena beat WGT or bought the gear at the vendor. To me there is a clear difference in the quality of player, which is useful information depending on what content I am doing, but now I will have to assume it was purchased until proven otherwise now. I feel bad that player cant be recognized anymore.

DDemon · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

The people demand a token system to go with existing RNG. Tokens earned limits and token requirements still subject to debate.

side not: I worry its going to be a worse grind now for hardcore players, with the vMaelstrom quest/save function preventing instantly re-running the content much how the normal is now. You will have a certain wait period between runs.

But im fine with that its a + for the health benefits of taking breaks and good for the average player who wants to slowly work towards a completion. and least i can stop and help guildies without losing progress

@willymchilybily Yeah to me this is disappointing. Just because it is further proof how seemingly simple requests can have ramifications for other player groups. People ask for changes that benefit them without thought to how other groups would be affected or have their enjoyment impacted.

I can't do consecutive runs....I don't have the attention span, but to prevent someone who enjoys doing so....just so people can have a save function....doesn't seem fair. The content is able to be completed as it is now, players do it every day. I really wonder how much the clear rate will go up with the save function....... and if it will be worth it.

People always say...."making something easier to get does not impact those who have already succeeded"...well that is just not true. I just think of all those guys with Kena helms that will almost certainly be impacted by the undaunted vendor in cyrodil. Yeah they got to enjoy the gear for the past few months, but after TG, you cannot tell if the guy wearing Kena beat WGT or bought the gear at the vendor. To me there is a clear difference in the quality of player, which is useful information depending on what content I am doing, but now I will have to assume it was purchased until proven otherwise now. I feel bad that player cant be recognized anymore.

I grinded hours for the kena helm with friends, I don't really care if others get the gear the easy way, it does not influence me at all. That would be self centered.

Scamandros · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

The people demand a token system to go with existing RNG. Tokens earned limits and token requirements still subject to debate.

side not: I worry its going to be a worse grind now for hardcore players, with the vMaelstrom quest/save function preventing instantly re-running the content much how the normal is now. You will have a certain wait period between runs.

But im fine with that its a + for the health benefits of taking breaks and good for the average player who wants to slowly work towards a completion. and least i can stop and help guildies without losing progress

@willymchilybily Yeah to me this is disappointing. Just because it is further proof how seemingly simple requests can have ramifications for other player groups. People ask for changes that benefit them without thought to how other groups would be affected or have their enjoyment impacted.

I can't do consecutive runs....I don't have the attention span, but to prevent someone who enjoys doing so....just so people can have a save function....doesn't seem fair. The content is able to be completed as it is now, players do it every day. I really wonder how much the clear rate will go up with the save function....... and if it will be worth it.

People always say...."making something easier to get does not impact those who have already succeeded"...well that is just not true. I just think of all those guys with Kena helms that will almost certainly be impacted by the undaunted vendor in cyrodil. Yeah they got to enjoy the gear for the past few months, but after TG, you cannot tell if the guy wearing Kena beat WGT or bought the gear at the vendor. To me there is a clear difference in the quality of player, which is useful information depending on what content I am doing, but now I will have to assume it was purchased until proven otherwise now. I feel bad that player cant be recognized anymore.

You can always just flash your achievement. This is a really odd reason for why the undaunted vendor is going to negatively impact those who have the gear already

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

DDemon wrote: »

I grinded hours for the kena helm with friends, I don't really care if others get the gear the easy way, it does not influence me at all. That would be self centered.

@DDemon Then I assume you are also think that there should be alternative/easier ways to grind alliance and undaunted skills as well? Its pretty much the same thing....

Its a slippery slope....how long before the quality of the general playing population begins to decline because no one has to learn anything to receive the best rewards?

You may think it's helping but I doubt it. If anything its making the everyday player worse because they are not forced to L2P. I don't want player quality to decrease for the sake of everyone.

DDemon · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

DDemon wrote: »

I grinded hours for the kena helm with friends, I don't really care if others get the gear the easy way, it does not influence me at all. That would be self centered.

@DDemon Then I assume you are also think that there should be alternative/easier ways to grind alliance and undaunted skills as well? Its pretty much the same thing....

Its a slippery slope....how long before the quality of the general playing population begins to decline because no one has to learn anything to receive the best rewards?

You may think it's helping but I doubt it. If anything its making the everyday player worse because they are not forced to L2P. I don't want player quality to decrease for the sake of everyone.

Alliance skills and undaunted are entirely different things. For starters, they are not random and you will eventually get there at a steady pace. There is a clear goal, a finish line if you will. Also, any one that can complete the vMA is an above average player, as you need a certain amount of dps and ability to stay alive.

There are many times where I run pledges with random people, and you will have a DPS just heavy attacking with a lightning staff doing little to no DPS, when pointing this out they will almost always get angry and tell me to put my opinion where the sun doesn't shine. Even though I always try to be as friendly and constructive as possible when pointing this out. This type of player will _never_ be able to finish vMA.

The only reason you would experience vMA as easy, is after completing it at least 10 or so times learning all the mechanics. Yes, it is easy, but it takes time and effort, one mistake and you get 1 shot in there. I am not ashamed to admit it took me hours and hours to complete it initially, to now, where my fastest run is 1 hour and 18 minutes. When I stated earlier I had 5 runs with nothing to show for, I am talking about what is in the end chest, the big reward you get from doing what is considered the hardest content in the game currently. To me getting a piece of well-fitted parabellum armor and 100 or so gold, for spending over an hour running this arena, on my own in an MMO, I find insulting.

That's 6,5 hours, that is in my opinion wasted time, for 500 gold and some random well-fitted or reinforced armor pieces I will probably never have any use for.

I am not asking for content to be made easier, I am asking for the content we as players do, is made in such a way that it makes us feel worthwhile running it.

On a side note, I finally pushed myself to do another run today, and I did not get what I wanted, but I got a weapon out of it I could still use. In this case a precise healing staff. So, even though it was not what I wanted, it was something, and thus for me, it was a worthwhile run.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

DDemon wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

DDemon wrote: »

I grinded hours for the kena helm with friends, I don't really care if others get the gear the easy way, it does not influence me at all. That would be self centered.

@DDemon Then I assume you are also think that there should be alternative/easier ways to grind alliance and undaunted skills as well? Its pretty much the same thing....

Its a slippery slope....how long before the quality of the general playing population begins to decline because no one has to learn anything to receive the best rewards?

You may think it's helping but I doubt it. If anything its making the everyday player worse because they are not forced to L2P. I don't want player quality to decrease for the sake of everyone.

Alliance skills and undaunted are entirely different things. For starters, they are not random and you will eventually get there at a steady pace. There is a clear goal, a finish line if you will. Also, any one that can complete the vMA is an above average player, as you need a certain amount of dps and ability to stay alive.

There are many times where I run pledges with random people, and you will have a DPS just heavy attacking with a lightning staff doing little to no DPS, when pointing this out they will almost always get angry and tell me to put my opinion where the sun doesn't shine. Even though I always try to be as friendly and constructive as possible when pointing this out. This type of player will _never_ be able to finish vMA.

The only reason you would experience vMA as easy, is after completing it at least 10 or so times learning all the mechanics. Yes, it is easy, but it takes time and effort, one mistake and you get 1 shot in there. I am not ashamed to admit it took me hours and hours to complete it initially, to now, where my fastest run is 1 hour and 18 minutes. When I stated earlier I had 5 runs with nothing to show for, I am talking about what is in the end chest, the big reward you get from doing what is considered the hardest content in the game currently. To me getting a piece of well-fitted parabellum armor and 100 or so gold, for spending over an hour running this arena, on my own in an MMO, I find insulting.

That's 6,5 hours, that is in my opinion wasted time, for 500 gold and some random well-fitted or reinforced armor pieces I will probably never have any use for.

I am not asking for content to be made easier, I am asking for the content we as players do, is made in such a way that it makes us feel worthwhile running it.

On a side note, I finally pushed myself to do another run today, and I did not get what I wanted, but I got a weapon out of it I could still use. In this case a precise healing staff. So, even though it was not what I wanted, it was something, and thus for me, it was a worthwhile run.

@DDemon BiS rewards should be for top players not above average players. Or there should be better rewards for top players. Do you disagree?

The player you described is not an average player....they are a breath away from full ***. Sure they will never be able to complete vMSA but that same player IS going to be able to purchase a monster helm. How is that fair? I'm sorry this minimizes the accomplishment of getting the helm....it just does.

You are trying to do the same for average players and the vMSA.

Alliance skills and undaunted are not any different at all from vMSA. People hate to grind for them just as much if not more than grinding vMSA. These skills (like the maelstrom gear) are often considered essential to certain builds and play styles. There are a lot of players who choose not to go for those skills because of the perceived grind, and what is the point of a clear finish line if it is a million miles away? At that distance there are quite a few people would prefer to not know how long they have to go. It makes the effort seem impossible.

There is absolutely no difference between the vMSA gear and the alliance skills people complain about. Both require significant effort to get that may or may not be fun for the person involved. The "clear finish line" you speak of may actually be preventative of some players attempting the grind.

Some people like knowing "hey I just have to do 100 runs and I can get this" other people prefer just to do runs and not worry about how many they have already done.

I felt progression beating the arena. I felt progression every time I improved my time on a stage, or got further into the arena.

YOU are basing your progression off of gear drops. That is a personal preference and one that I think too many players fall victim to. Just because you are gauging your progression on gear drops, doesn't mean other people are and it doesn't mean you couldn't of found a reason to feel good after 6.5 hours in the arena. Why should my content and reward system be changed based on your idea of progression or what is "worth while?"

DDemon · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

DDemon wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

DDemon wrote: »

I grinded hours for the kena helm with friends, I don't really care if others get the gear the easy way, it does not influence me at all. That would be self centered.

@DDemon Then I assume you are also think that there should be alternative/easier ways to grind alliance and undaunted skills as well? Its pretty much the same thing....

Its a slippery slope....how long before the quality of the general playing population begins to decline because no one has to learn anything to receive the best rewards?

You may think it's helping but I doubt it. If anything its making the everyday player worse because they are not forced to L2P. I don't want player quality to decrease for the sake of everyone.

Alliance skills and undaunted are entirely different things. For starters, they are not random and you will eventually get there at a steady pace. There is a clear goal, a finish line if you will. Also, any one that can complete the vMA is an above average player, as you need a certain amount of dps and ability to stay alive.

There are many times where I run pledges with random people, and you will have a DPS just heavy attacking with a lightning staff doing little to no DPS, when pointing this out they will almost always get angry and tell me to put my opinion where the sun doesn't shine. Even though I always try to be as friendly and constructive as possible when pointing this out. This type of player will _never_ be able to finish vMA.

The only reason you would experience vMA as easy, is after completing it at least 10 or so times learning all the mechanics. Yes, it is easy, but it takes time and effort, one mistake and you get 1 shot in there. I am not ashamed to admit it took me hours and hours to complete it initially, to now, where my fastest run is 1 hour and 18 minutes. When I stated earlier I had 5 runs with nothing to show for, I am talking about what is in the end chest, the big reward you get from doing what is considered the hardest content in the game currently. To me getting a piece of well-fitted parabellum armor and 100 or so gold, for spending over an hour running this arena, on my own in an MMO, I find insulting.

That's 6,5 hours, that is in my opinion wasted time, for 500 gold and some random well-fitted or reinforced armor pieces I will probably never have any use for.

I am not asking for content to be made easier, I am asking for the content we as players do, is made in such a way that it makes us feel worthwhile running it.

On a side note, I finally pushed myself to do another run today, and I did not get what I wanted, but I got a weapon out of it I could still use. In this case a precise healing staff. So, even though it was not what I wanted, it was something, and thus for me, it was a worthwhile run.

@DDemon BiS rewards should be for top players not above average players. Or there should be better rewards for top players. Do you disagree?

The player you described is not an average player....they are a breath away from full ***. Sure they will never be able to complete vMSA but that same player IS going to be able to purchase a monster helm. How is that fair? I'm sorry this minimizes the accomplishment of getting the helm....it just does.

You are trying to do the same for average players and the vMSA.

Alliance skills and undaunted are not any different at all from vMSA. People hate to grind for them just as much if not more than grinding vMSA. These skills (like the maelstrom gear) are often considered essential to certain builds and play styles. There are a lot of players who choose not to go for those skills because of the perceived grind, and what is the point of a clear finish line if it is a million miles away? At that distance there are quite a few people would prefer to not know how long they have to go. It makes the effort seem impossible.

There is absolutely no difference between the vMSA gear and the alliance skills people complain about. Both require significant effort to get that may or may not be fun for the person involved. The "clear finish line" you speak of may actually be preventative of some players attempting the grind.

Some people like knowing "hey I just have to do 100 runs and I can get this" other people prefer just to do runs and not worry about how many they have already done.

I felt progression beating the arena. I felt progression every time I improved my time on a stage, or got further into the arena.

YOU are basing your progression off of gear drops. That is a personal preference and one that I think too many players fall victim to. Just because you are gauging your progression on gear drops, doesn't mean other people are and it doesn't mean you couldn't of found a reason to feel good after 6.5 hours in the arena. Why should my content and reward system be changed based on your idea of progression or what is "worth while?"

I'm sorry but I don't see getting a Kena helm as an accomplishment, if you get the speed runs and no death run achievements, I see that as an accomplishment. Once you know the mechanics of vWGT it becomes so easy it's not even funny anymore, and all that remains is luck, not skill.

It took me 20 to 30 runs to get my first helm, while there were other players that got it in the first run. This is not skill or an accomplishment, but just plain luck. If I see someone walking around with a kena helm, I don't think anything of it, anyone can get it if they are either lucky, or spend enough time completing the dungeon over and over. Now if someone has the to spite a tharn achievement, I see that as an accomplishment, as it is still quite hard to get a good group together, and not die the entire run.

Now, me personally, I would be happy to get a token from the last chest, that, when 10 combined you get an extra shot at another chest. It's not a lot, but there is still a sense of some sort of reward. There is still the whole matter of getting the right weapon and trait combination.

I don't feel it would devalue an item, and to be honest, it has no value as it is bind on pickup, if the chances of getting _any_ type of weapon would be even slightly higher then it is now. Having to grind a dungeon 50 times as opposed to a 100 times, for an item only you can use, changes nothing.

As you said yourself, you do not value the items, and you're happy to get an item in whatever trait. Everyone has different interests, and yours are running some dungeon over and over for, in my opinion meaningless scores. I just want the gear and be done with it, I do not and will not ever like running vMA as I have different aspects of the game I prefer. Why should I use up my valuable free time to spend in a dungeon I don't like running?

I do understand that it's a time trail, however, just let me get the gear I want out of it when I spend a good amount of time completing it multiple times over and over so I can go play this game with my friends. You can have your nice scores and time runs.

I do realize I used the word time in here a lot. I'm not asking for much, just for someone to throw me a bone for... time well spent.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

@DDemon I am not saying having gear is an accomplishment, I am saying the monster vendor will be taking some BiS gear and make it available to those unable to do the content. Kena shoulders are a perfect example.....everyone has them....I did not feel rewarded when I got my pair, because it was an essential and nothing else. Should gear be rewarding? Yes, but there is a clear difference between feeling like you have a high quality item and feeling like you got an item on par with everyone else. If everyone has BiS gear...it is no longer BiS gear...its the new normal.

I never said I did not value gear, please do not put words into my mouth. I just said I do not use gear as my sole metric for progression, though it is an important one. I am sure it is for everyone.

DDemon wrote: »

I do realize I used the word time in here a lot. I'm not asking for much, just for someone to throw me a bone for... time well spent.

We can agree that time should be valued, regardless of RNG. I have no issue with this sentiment.

What I take issue with are poorly thought out suggestions out of frustration with RNG....see your words below:

DDemon wrote: »

yake82 wrote: »

Too many words in this thread....

I think better solution for final reward would be to give player a choice. 3 random pieces: 1 jewelry, 1 armor and 1 weapon piece. Player could pick one.

Or simply a key that can open 1 of 3 chests at the place where you hand in the quest. You can then pick from a weapon, jewelry or armor chest?

Your latest suggestion of tokens to open another rng chest....that's actually not bad. But honestly probably doesn't do enough to solve your pain point. Please go back and read the suggestion by @Derra this thread is turning into a circle jerk.

Waffennacht · February 2016

So... ummm...

Quick Q?

Can (and I mean is it possible even if very unlikely) for jewelry and non-well fitted set peices to drop in the first 4 chests?

Derra · February 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

So... ummm...

Quick Q?

Can (and I mean is it possible even if very unlikely) for jewelry and non-well fitted set peices to drop in the first 4 chests?

Jewelry only ever dropped for me in stage 8 and 9. If there is a chance to drop in other stages it´s very very very very very unlikely.

Traits are random but seem to have about 50% well fitted 20% reinforced and 15% divine 15% infused in droprates for me (i´ve kept most pieces up to now because i had the idea to look at droprates once but abandoned that somewhere along the way).

yake82 · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

yake82 wrote: »

Too many words in this thread....

I think better solution for final reward would be to give player a choice. 3 random pieces: 1 jewelry, 1 armor and 1 weapon piece. Player could pick one.

A guaranteed weapon drop for round 9....when there is already a guaranteed weapon from the leader board...right...

Who would actually pick the armor given that is what drops most frequently from rounds 1-8?

Automatic rewards are too easy. Anyone can limp through the arena....its just not that hard.

Not everyone can get to the leaderboard. Especially NB or sorc leaderboard.
And do go tell DKs that vMA "is just not that hard".

Big pieces dont drop in early stages. Im sure there are people who would pick armor if they had guarantee chance for chest or legs drop.

Waffennacht · February 2016

Does a head piece count as "big" or just legs and chest?

Last night I had feet and gloves drop of succession (one with infused) while farming the early stages.

I can live without jewelry, just need one more piece

DDemon · February 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Does a head piece count as "big" or just legs and chest?

Last night I had feet and gloves drop of succession (one with infused) while farming the early stages.

I can live without jewelry, just need one more piece

Head, chest and legs are considered large pieces, a shield is also considered a large piece, if you use one.

code65536 · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

this thread is turning into a circle jerk.

This thread is turning had turned a long time ago into one person ceaselessly arguing against a tide of common sense and fairness. It's almost comical.

Waffennacht · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

this thread is turning into a circle jerk.

This thread is turning had turned a long time ago into one person ceaselessly arguing against a tide of common sense and fairness. It's almost comical.

I just got a ton of info and answers (which honestly because of title was what thread wss about lol)
Thanks for the help guys

Hopefully we can ignore the war

Oreyn_Bearclaw · March 2016

I love the part where he thinks he ripped me a new one. Seriously, best troll ever.