VMSA set drop rate

Decado · February 2016

Humatiel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

I just want to be damn sure you don't poison anyone else with your nonsense. So I speak from a different point of view.

ROTFL. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming consensus in this thread, among people who are capable of completing vMA, is that this RNG-grind that you support is the thing that's going to "poison" the game. You're the one tilting at windmills here.

From someone who completes vMA on a nearly daily basis I wouldn't necessarily mind having a token based system but I believe if we have one that it should lean toward the far end of what RNG would allow anyway. For instance 1 token for completing the arena and 100 tokens for picking out the staff with the trait that you want.

I believe the point of all this is simple, if its not worth working toward their is no point in doing it. YAY gear whatever, if you aren't looking for leaderboards I could (and have) run vMA in purple with precise. What do I care about gear when I know better then most that you can complete ANY content in the game with crafted gear anyway?

edit: Keeping a RNG based system shows a level of dedication and frankly outright faith that speaks highly of a gamers motivation and focus, by removing that you damn well better give us something that is hard enough I don't see a completion for a few months after it comes out so I can work toward it.

Have you tried the new trial yet? Now that is one tough piece on content, and it's not like the old trials of stack and burn lost of movement etc,

That may be the new difficult content you are looking at, I believe atm there are 3 guilds who have killed the second boss (hodor, beyond infinity and almost heroes) please correct me if im wrong, and if I forgot your guild I apologise. And if I'm correct in what in seeing of the last boss we will not be seeing s clear for a while yet and even longer before more can complete

Derra · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Baconlad wrote: »

What? Why would ANYONE not appreciate the change? I'm not talking about maelstrom weapons, I'm talking about the six sets. You ran vmsa a few times? What's your definition of running it a "few times". I have opened 20-25 vmsa chests. Been doing them for four days, four to five chests a night over two hours. I have gotten TWO pieces of these sets. Do the math. There are ALOT of pieces competing for a drop in these chests. 60 pieces. You have a one in 60 chance to get the piece you need. THAT DOESNT INCLUDE ALL THE TRAIT ON THESE SETS. It three times worse than undaunted shoulders. You sound like just another elitist "jerk" who thinks that no one else should have a set they want because they don't have the time to grind for 12 hours a day the same content untill they get their gear. Who the hell has the time for that? Why should I not be allowed to grind for my gear over two-three weeks and enjoy my gear? Why must I be forced to do a solo grind for potentially months at a time for a five piece set? At the end of the day I could open 200 chests and never find a perma ring healthy. Now let me ask you, seeing as you have so much time to grind vmsa, have you gotten ONE piece of gear you were looking for in vmsa? Not including maelstrom weps as they are not part of this topic. I doubt you have, therefore the rings you have gotten don't matter if they are not the set your looking for, they may as well have been non set purple items for vender sell.

Baconlad wrote: »

Also on a side note. I am not talking about the last chest, I'm talking about ALL the chests. They ALL should drop a set piece 100% of the time, and the last chest should drop a set piece and a maelstrom weapon.

The chests do drop set pieces at a very high rate, not sure anyone can argue that. It may not be 100% but every chest has a chance to drop a set piece. But that is not what you want....you want the jewelry so not sure what you are asking for. I have run the arena roughly 10 times to completion (so close to 100 chests) Almost every single round 9 I have gotten a piece of jewelry. Last 2 weeks from the leader board I received maelstrom weapons with the traits that I desire.

That´s lovely and all. Still it´s insanely lucky. I´m well above 150 (think about that being over 150 hours in that - thats almost a week) complete runs of the arena aswell as getting about 60 weekly rewards (doing it with 5 characters each week). I still haven´t got the weapon traint combination i desire nor do i have one jewelry piece in arcane of the set i desire.

It´s nice you got lucky. Problem with the current system is: While some people get lucky some get insanely unlucky and a game played for enjoyment simply should not work that way.
There is nothing i can work for. How many runs shall i do until i get these items 300 - 400? It´s a bullfeces system for endgame rewards.
If things become a chore for the most hardcore players in a game designed to provide enjoyment something isn´t working right. That´s why sth like a token system is needed on top of the current rgn - like 30 runs and you may choose one weapon with the trait you desire. I don´t think that´s unreasonable nor carebearish. 30 runs is a lot.

Also your comparison to get into harvard law school is about as false as an analogy gets. Being the best in the test increases your chances.
If it worked like eso it would work in a way that anyone who manages to complete the test has the same chance and they can apply with every test completed - so you just have to take the test a thousand times (and still might never make it). While someone else does it first try.

A better analogy would be (since you depicted it as a road layed out before you):

You´re having a car race on a round track.
You need a car capable of going round the track.
Everyone has a small chance of winning after each completed lap.
It does not matter how fast you go each lap - you simply have to go the full circle.
Some people win on their first round while others do a 1000 laps and still have to keep going.
The only advantage being better gives you is getting more chances in the same timeframe (if you stay motivated to do more laps because it gets really dull after going round in a circle after 50 times - especially when you see people being finished after their second lap).

Does that sound like fun to you?

Humatiel · February 2016

Decado wrote: »

Humatiel wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

I just want to be damn sure you don't poison anyone else with your nonsense. So I speak from a different point of view.

ROTFL. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming consensus in this thread, among people who are capable of completing vMA, is that this RNG-grind that you support is the thing that's going to "poison" the game. You're the one tilting at windmills here.

From someone who completes vMA on a nearly daily basis I wouldn't necessarily mind having a token based system but I believe if we have one that it should lean toward the far end of what RNG would allow anyway. For instance 1 token for completing the arena and 100 tokens for picking out the staff with the trait that you want.

I believe the point of all this is simple, if its not worth working toward their is no point in doing it. YAY gear whatever, if you aren't looking for leaderboards I could (and have) run vMA in purple with precise. What do I care about gear when I know better then most that you can complete ANY content in the game with crafted gear anyway?

edit: Keeping a RNG based system shows a level of dedication and frankly outright faith that speaks highly of a gamers motivation and focus, by removing that you damn well better give us something that is hard enough I don't see a completion for a few months after it comes out so I can work toward it.

Have you tried the new trial yet? Now that is one tough piece on content, and it's not like the old trials of stack and burn lost of movement etc,

That may be the new difficult content you are looking at, I believe atm there are 3 guilds who have killed the second boss (hodor, beyond infinity and almost heroes) please correct me if im wrong, and if I forgot your guild I apologise. And if I'm correct in what in seeing of the last boss will not be seeing s clear for a while yet and even longer before more can complete

I have, it's quite a lot of fun isnt it? If PvE environments were more geared toward MoL then I wouldn't have an issue with RNG being removed to a point, for instance 100% chance of a drop between X items (say the BoP gear) so we would know we would at least get gear worth having and not say a Ruby Ash Shield or some such.

The reality though is that if most PvE were like MoL then their wouldn't be many players doing PvE

Septimus_Magna · February 2016

The main problem is RNG upon RNG upon RNG upon RNG, this makes it insanely hard to get the exact right piece.

For example, in the beginning you will have choice from 10 different sets, 5 traits and 5/7 useful pieces.
Each time you get a useful piece the chance to get a new piece with a good trait will reduce significantly.

Assuming you have a 100% chance to get one set item in each chest, the chance to get the exact right item would be:

Chance before success: 1/10 x 1/5 x 5/7 = 0.014 = 1.4%
Chance after first success: 1/10 x 1/5 x 4/7 = 0.011 = 1.1%
Chance after second success: 1/10 x 1/5 x 3/7 = 0.009 = 0.9%
Chance after third success: 1/10 x 1/5 x 2/7 = 0.006 = 0.6%
Chance after forth success: 1/10 x 1/5 x 1/7 = 0.003 = 0.3%

With 9 chests per run this would take an average of 37 runs just to get the last item with the correct trait.

Note, this is without taken into account that roughly 80% of the useful set items drop with Well-Fitted trait.

Cuyler · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

I played ESO PC beta-3 months after launch and recently picked it up again when it released on console (1.6), was largely gone for 1.5. Not sure what that has to do with anything tho.

For the record, I am not trying to convince you , I just want to be damn sure you don't poison anyone else with your nonsense. So I speak from a different point of view.

It has to do with the way you frame your statements. You speak like the BOP meta has been the meta in ESO forever, that you're simply defending a long standing tradition and this is how it should be based off some doomsday gold seller market crash scenario or that players won't have things to do.

That's not the case. Every set in game except for weekly coffer trials sets, master weapons and monster sets had been BOE up until IC, which is when ZOS made significant personnel changes and shifted the meta to the crap BOP, forced DLC sales system for all the new dropped sets we have now.

Everything I described is literally how things used to be and has already happened. I am simply reiterating that the game should go back to the BOE meta and it's painfully obvious you weren't here for most of that time. Your opinions reflect that... and IMO are shortsighted in other words. All you know is the BOP ESO so it now makes sense. So yea, not "poisonous" but simply a history lesson for you.

The game was fine before with BOE. If you'd do a little forum research as well you'd also find that there were 100s of posts denouncing the changes to BOP sets. Players didn't want it, ZOS does...because it sells DLCs for them. There is more than one way to do itemization obviously, and it doesn't have to be the long, stressful grind til your eyes bleed meta we have now to retain the player base or the game to be successful. At least for most of the current BOP sets.

willymchilybily · February 2016

10 sets? that sounds incorrect. that maths looks a bit dodge in general....

I have no Problem with BOP if done right. but as you rightly mention @Septimus_Magna the RNG stacking is just too damn high eg to get a ring:
chance of getting a set item = 3/4 (is my guess)
chance of correct set 1/6
chance of correct item (ring) 1/9
totalling = 1/72

with 2 chances rounds 8 and 9 its down to 1/36. less than 3% chance to get one ring and if you want 2 of them...well you are back up to running it 72 times (assuming you have average RNG. Those with bad RNG would need hundreds of runs or will just straight up never see wjhat they want)

I'm actually contemplating not purchasing the TG till i have grinded out my rings. Whats the point in buying The TG if im not going to be playing it because i'm still grinding out my gear sets from the last 2 DLCs with vWGT runs and vet Maelstrom runs. I havent even finnished the orsinium story yet, im not ready for another DLC yet maybe it'd be best just to save the money till im ready to try it.

Derra · February 2016

willymchilybily wrote: »

10 sets? that sounds incorrect. that maths looks a bit dodge in general....

I have no Problem with BOP if done right. but as you rightly mention @Septimus_Magna the RNG stacking is just too damn high eg to get a ring:
chance of getting a set item = 3/4 (is my guess)
chance of correct set 1/6
chance of correct item (ring) 1/9
totalling = 1/72

with 2 chances rounds 8 and 9 its down to 1/36. less than 3% chance to get one ring and if you want 2 of them...well you are back up to running it 72 times (assuming you have average RNG. Those with bad RNG would need hundreds of runs or will just straight up never see wjhat they want)
I'm actually contemplating not purchasing the TG till i have grinded out my rings. Whats the point in buying The TG if im not going to be playing it because i'm still grinding out my gear sets from the last 2 DLCs with vWGT runs and vet Maelstrom runs. I havent even finnished the orsinium story yet, im not ready for another DLC yet maybe it'd be best just to save the money till im ready to try it.

I think that´s super important to point out here. People doing the content on a daily basis are not able to complete it within the time it takes for the next update to go live (if they have bad rgn).

That should never be the case. What are you going to tell someone who´s playing 3 days a week - good luck getting anything because once you´ve got your set complete it´s gonna be outdated because a year has passed and we´re three DLCs ahead of you. WTF

Septimus_Magna · February 2016

willymchilybily wrote: »

10 sets? that sounds incorrect. that maths looks a bit dodge in general....

I have no Problem with BOP if done right. but as you rightly mention @Septimus_Magna the RNG stacking is just too damn high eg to get a ring:
chance of getting a set item = 3/4 (is my guess)
chance of correct set 1/6
chance of correct item (ring) 1/9
totalling = 1/72

with 2 chances rounds 8 and 9 its down to 1/36. less than 3% chance to get one ring and if you want 2 of them...well you are back up to running it 72 times (assuming you have average RNG. Those with bad RNG would need hundreds of runs or will just straight up never see wjhat they want)
I'm actually contemplating not purchasing the TG till i have grinded out my rings. Whats the point in buying The TG if im not going to be playing it because i'm still grinding out my gear sets from the last 2 DLCs with vWGT runs and vet Maelstrom runs. I havent even finnished the orsinium story yet, im not ready for another DLC yet maybe it'd be best just to save the money till im ready to try it.

10 Sets was just an example to illustrate the problem with RNG upon RNG.
The example was also for body pieces, without head and shoulder because most people wear 2 monster set pieces, hence the 5/7 chance for the first piece.

For jewelry the chances are actually better, the right trait has a 1/3 chance and the right piece has a 1/2 chance because you need 2 rings and a necklace. I suspect this is the main reason why only round 8 and 9 drop jewelry pieces, otherwise it would be relative easy to farm.

willymchilybily · February 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

willymchilybily wrote: »

10 sets? that sounds incorrect. that maths looks a bit dodge in general....

I have no Problem with BOP if done right. but as you rightly mention @Septimus_Magna the RNG stacking is just too damn high eg to get a ring:
chance of getting a set item = 3/4 (is my guess)
chance of correct set 1/6
chance of correct item (ring) 1/9
totalling = 1/72

with 2 chances rounds 8 and 9 its down to 1/36. less than 3% chance to get one ring and if you want 2 of them...well you are back up to running it 72 times (assuming you have average RNG. Those with bad RNG would need hundreds of runs or will just straight up never see wjhat they want)
I'm actually contemplating not purchasing the TG till i have grinded out my rings. Whats the point in buying The TG if im not going to be playing it because i'm still grinding out my gear sets from the last 2 DLCs with vWGT runs and vet Maelstrom runs. I havent even finnished the orsinium story yet, im not ready for another DLC yet maybe it'd be best just to save the money till im ready to try it.

10 Sets was just an example to illustrate the problem with RNG upon RNG.
The example was also for body pieces, without head and shoulder because most people wear 2 monster set pieces, hence the 5/7 chance for the first piece.

For jewelry the chances are actually better, the right trait has a 1/3 chance and the right piece has a 1/2 chance because you need 2 rings and a necklace. I suspect this is the main reason why only round 8 and 9 drop jewelry pieces, otherwise it would be relative easy to farm.

@Septimus_Magna got to disagree although i know you are giving an "as example scenario" RNG stacking is sucky and I agree with that, but there is still definitely a drop-rate weighting system. That is far worse than what you indicate. and although it is exacerbated by number of sets, and number of traits, jewlery is still harder to get than the rest. Especially because you need a ring twice, and the rings and necklaces are not the only set piece drops from round 8 or from round 9. ive seen jerkins and hats and all sorts. and thats ignoring when you open up and get a non set item eg. "ruby ash inferno staff of frost"

i really dont think non set items should be coming from anything past round 4. Certainly not the only chests that have a chance to drop jewlery. Anyway enough moaning over broken RNG loot mechanics. Hopefully the decline in the player base caused by players not feeling rewarded/progression for their efforts will be the catalyst ZOS need to sort their systems of reward out.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Koreans make some damn good games.

Yeah, P2W pseudo-ftp crap full of rng. Random boxes with weapons in cash shop, stuff that requires 24/7 farming, rampant bots and gold selling... Yeah, that's so awesome, Korean style mmos surely are the jewel of the genre.
Its really cute how you're bashing P2W and goldselling and then praise those games.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

I just want to be damn sure you don't poison anyone else with your nonsense. So I speak from a different point of view.

ROTFL. I'm pretty sure that the overwhelming consensus in this thread, among people who are capable of completing vMA, is that this RNG-grind that you support is the thing that's going to "poison" the game. You're the one tilting at windmills here.

@code65536 I am sorry if that was the impression I gave. I was arguing in favor of RNG, not because I like it, or because think its a good system, just that any alternative system would either make the grind much harder..... or much easier.

If you got 1 token per run and had to have 100 tokens to select a weapon....to me that would make the grind harder. I am not against a token system or any other accumulation type of reward system its just that those systems are either insanely easy or insanely hard.

Like I get it man, I play the same game, I am in the same grind....... I just don't want it to get easier, I don't think that is good for the game. Nor do I want it to become more difficult (still haven't gotten my IC sets).

All I was arguing is that RNG is the most balanced and fair system available that doesn't make a grind artificially hard. I was only speaking out against the clear insinuation that gear needed to be easier to obtain of vMSA. I disagree with that sentiment completely.

If you can consistently complete the arena and still cant get your gear (that inferno staff drop is rough) then absolutely you have a right to be upset. I don't know what the answer is, but I know the answer is NOT making the path to BiS gear easier....whatever that means.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Koreans make some damn good games.

Yeah, P2W pseudo-ftp crap full of rng. Random boxes with weapons in cash shop, stuff that requires 24/7 farming, rampant bots and gold selling... Yeah, that's so awesome, Korean style mmos surely are the jewel of the genre.
Its really cute how you're bashing P2W and goldselling and then praise those games.

@KoshkaMurka I never said all the games were good, or that they are in their best development period. I just said Koreans have made some good games. Like do you need me to send you sources? Why would you even argue this?

Derra · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

All I was arguing is that RNG is the most balanced and fair system available that doesn't make a grind artificially hard. I was only speaking out against the clear insinuation that gear needed to be easier to obtain of vMSA. I disagree with that sentiment completely.

RGN is actually the most unfair and unbalanced way to hand out loot ever because of the simple fact that even if you work hard for something you can get unlucky. While someone doing hardly anything can get lucky.

That´s the exact opposite of fair or balanced.

And to take up your example. I´d love 100 token to get a weapon i want with correct trait - because i´d have one by now instead of still farming. That´s why random is bad.

So the answer is for a token system to require as many runs as the average person takes to get the weapon/gear they want. My guess would be something between 30 and 50.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Derra wrote: »

[
It´s nice you got lucky. Problem with the current system is: While some people get lucky some get insanely unlucky and a game played for enjoyment simply should not work that way.
There is nothing i can work for. How many runs shall i do until i get these items 300 - 400? It´s a bullfeces system for endgame rewards.
If things become a chore for the most hardcore players in a game designed to provide enjoyment something isn´t working right. That´s why sth like a token system is needed on top of the current rgn - like 30 runs and you may choose one weapon with the trait you desire. I don´t think that´s unreasonable nor carebearish. 30 runs is a lot.

@Derra What about the person who got what the needed in under 10 runs? Listen, I am not the guy who got lucky. I assure you it took me several weeks doing the arena 2-3 times a week to get something I could use, and I am still not done!

What I am saying is that you guys are trying to take the worst RNG case and use that as a reason to implement another system. What about the person who got what they needed on the first run? Why would you artificially inflate his requirement just because there is a chance you could be the unlucky one?

Everyone always speaks of fairness.....but then they want to screw someone else over. I keep thinking about the guy who ACTUALLY wanted gold jewelry from the vMSA leader board rewards. Then they took it away from him (and players like him) because people cried. Like why was he punished? He can't get his gold jewelry anymore because people wanted a higher drop rate on weapons. Did I benefit from the change? Absolutely....but changing stuff like this has a negative impact on some players and I am saying that may not be "fair".

Exhibit 1:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/235418/im-missing-10-magicka-thanks-to-you

Derra · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

[
It´s nice you got lucky. Problem with the current system is: While some people get lucky some get insanely unlucky and a game played for enjoyment simply should not work that way.
There is nothing i can work for. How many runs shall i do until i get these items 300 - 400? It´s a bullfeces system for endgame rewards.
If things become a chore for the most hardcore players in a game designed to provide enjoyment something isn´t working right. That´s why sth like a token system is needed on top of the current rgn - like 30 runs and you may choose one weapon with the trait you desire. I don´t think that´s unreasonable nor carebearish. 30 runs is a lot.

@Derra What about the person who got what the needed in under 10 runs? Listen, I am not the guy who got lucky. I assure you it took me several weeks doing the arena 2-3 times a week to get something I could use, and I am still not done!

What I am saying is that you guys are trying to take the worst RNG case and use that as a reason to implement another system. What about the person who got what they needed on the first run? Why would you artificially inflate his requirement just because there is a chance you could be the unlucky one?

Everyone always speaks of fairness.....but then they want to screw someone else over. I keep thinking about the guy who ACTUALLY wanted gold jewelry from the vMSA leader board rewards. Then they took it away from him (and players like him) because people cried. Like why was he punished? He can't get his gold jewelry anymore because people wanted a higher drop rate on weapons. Did I benefit from the change? Absolutely....but changing stuff like this has a negative impact on some players and I am saying that may not be "fair".

Because i´m experiencing the worst case of rgn. It s*cks balls. It makes the game about as unfun as it gets. It´s the worst, laziest excuse of a reward system ever.

That´s why i said implement a token system on top of the rgn. You keep the rgn drop chance so some people might get lucky but on top of that to eliminate the chance of doing the arena 150 times without getting what they want you implement a token system that lets people buy things after a little more than the average number of runs it takes to get the desired gear (someone with insight to droprates can calculate that easily).
That way you eliminate bad rgn while keeping the good rgn.

Also on a sidenote. When everyone has to work the same for something (even though it might affect them negatively because before they did not have to do that) - that´s fair. There is nothing unfair about that. Unfair was the scenario where they got lucky.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Derra wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

[
It´s nice you got lucky. Problem with the current system is: While some people get lucky some get insanely unlucky and a game played for enjoyment simply should not work that way.
There is nothing i can work for. How many runs shall i do until i get these items 300 - 400? It´s a bullfeces system for endgame rewards.
If things become a chore for the most hardcore players in a game designed to provide enjoyment something isn´t working right. That´s why sth like a token system is needed on top of the current rgn - like 30 runs and you may choose one weapon with the trait you desire. I don´t think that´s unreasonable nor carebearish. 30 runs is a lot.

@Derra What about the person who got what the needed in under 10 runs? Listen, I am not the guy who got lucky. I assure you it took me several weeks doing the arena 2-3 times a week to get something I could use, and I am still not done!

What I am saying is that you guys are trying to take the worst RNG case and use that as a reason to implement another system. What about the person who got what they needed on the first run? Why would you artificially inflate his requirement just because there is a chance you could be the unlucky one?

Everyone always speaks of fairness.....but then they want to screw someone else over. I keep thinking about the guy who ACTUALLY wanted gold jewelry from the vMSA leader board rewards. Then they took it away from him (and players like him) because people cried. Like why was he punished? He can't get his gold jewelry anymore because people wanted a higher drop rate on weapons. Did I benefit from the change? Absolutely....but changing stuff like this has a negative impact on some players and I am saying that may not be "fair".

Because i´m experiencing the worst case of rgn. It s*cks balls. It makes the game about as unfun as it gets. It´s the worst, laziest excuse of a reward system ever.

That´s why i said implement a token system on top of the rgn. You keep the rgn drop chance so some people might get lucky but on top of that to eliminate the chance of doing the arena 150 times without getting what they want you implement a token system that lets people buy things after a little more than the average number of runs it takes to get the desired gear (someone with insight to droprates can calculate that easily).
That way you eliminate bad rgn while keeping the good rgn.

Also on a sidenote. When everyone has to work the same for something (even though it might affect them negatively because before they did not have to do that) - that´s fair. There is nothing unfair about that. Unfair was the scenario where they got lucky.

No one will ever have the same effort level as another person. Even if you made it a flat 100 runs to get a item, some people would finish those 100 runs faster than other. The amount of work is always relative. The dude who got lucky on one item may find a horrific grind somewhere else. I have still never seen a pair of engine guardian shoulders, but have 3 helms and have opened god knows how many chests.

I'm just gonna leave this here:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/235418/im-missing-10-magicka-thanks-to-you

@Derra your suggestion to run an additional system alongside rng.....is actually pretty good assuming the token system would take longer on average. Not a bad idea at all.

Derra · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

[
It´s nice you got lucky. Problem with the current system is: While some people get lucky some get insanely unlucky and a game played for enjoyment simply should not work that way.
There is nothing i can work for. How many runs shall i do until i get these items 300 - 400? It´s a bullfeces system for endgame rewards.
If things become a chore for the most hardcore players in a game designed to provide enjoyment something isn´t working right. That´s why sth like a token system is needed on top of the current rgn - like 30 runs and you may choose one weapon with the trait you desire. I don´t think that´s unreasonable nor carebearish. 30 runs is a lot.

@Derra What about the person who got what the needed in under 10 runs? Listen, I am not the guy who got lucky. I assure you it took me several weeks doing the arena 2-3 times a week to get something I could use, and I am still not done!

What I am saying is that you guys are trying to take the worst RNG case and use that as a reason to implement another system. What about the person who got what they needed on the first run? Why would you artificially inflate his requirement just because there is a chance you could be the unlucky one?

Everyone always speaks of fairness.....but then they want to screw someone else over. I keep thinking about the guy who ACTUALLY wanted gold jewelry from the vMSA leader board rewards. Then they took it away from him (and players like him) because people cried. Like why was he punished? He can't get his gold jewelry anymore because people wanted a higher drop rate on weapons. Did I benefit from the change? Absolutely....but changing stuff like this has a negative impact on some players and I am saying that may not be "fair".

Because i´m experiencing the worst case of rgn. It s*cks balls. It makes the game about as unfun as it gets. It´s the worst, laziest excuse of a reward system ever.

That´s why i said implement a token system on top of the rgn. You keep the rgn drop chance so some people might get lucky but on top of that to eliminate the chance of doing the arena 150 times without getting what they want you implement a token system that lets people buy things after a little more than the average number of runs it takes to get the desired gear (someone with insight to droprates can calculate that easily).
That way you eliminate bad rgn while keeping the good rgn.

Also on a sidenote. When everyone has to work the same for something (even though it might affect them negatively because before they did not have to do that) - that´s fair. There is nothing unfair about that. Unfair was the scenario where they got lucky.

No one will ever have the same effort level as another person. Even if you made it a flat 100 runs to get a item, some people would finish those 100 runs faster than other. The amount of work is always relative. The dude who got lucky on one item may find a horrific grind somewhere else. I have still never seen a pair of engine guardian shoulders, but have 3 helms and have opened god knows how many chests.

I'm just gonna leave this hear:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/235418/im-missing-10-magicka-thanks-to-you

If you´re faster with your 100 runs than it´s a fair system because you reward someone for being more competent in completing the content. Someone is better and gets to the finish line faster (it´s only a problem when looking at classbalance).

The effort level to complete the arena is the same for everyone. NPCs have the same HP everyone fights the same mechanics.

All of this can´t be compared in the slightest to the complete removal of certain gear - because what i´ve discribed would not have any negative impacts on other players.
That´s why i would implement it on other gear grinds aswell. RGN is always bad not only in vmsa.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Koreans make some damn good games.

Yeah, P2W pseudo-ftp crap full of rng. Random boxes with weapons in cash shop, stuff that requires 24/7 farming, rampant bots and gold selling... Yeah, that's so awesome, Korean style mmos surely are the jewel of the genre.
Its really cute how you're bashing P2W and goldselling and then praise those games.

@KoshkaMurka I never said all the games were good, or that they are in their best development period. I just said Koreans have made some good games. Like do you need me to send you sources? Why would you even argue this?

Im not a racist and Im not saying that Koreans cant make good games. But their mmos are notorious for these rng and p2w issues, and stuff like this shouldnt belong to ESO.

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

What I am saying is that you guys are trying to take the worst RNG case and use that as a reason to implement another system. What about the person who got what they needed on the first run? Why would you artificially inflate his requirement just because there is a chance you could be the unlucky one?

Its not the worst case, its a pretty common case, that's the thing.
I know people with good leaderboard scores who still cannot get what they want, how's that fair.
Chance to get a perfect item on the first run... Well, I thought you were against instant gratification?

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Everyone always speaks of fairness.....but then they want to screw someone else over. I keep thinking about the guy who ACTUALLY wanted gold jewelry from the vMSA leader board rewards. Then they took it away from him (and players like him) because people cried. Like why was he punished? He can't get his gold jewelry anymore because people wanted a higher drop rate on weapons. Did I benefit from the change? Absolutely....but changing stuff like this has a negative impact on some players and I am saying that may not be "fair".

This is why we need a way to obtain the weapons more reliably, so leaderboards wont be just for getting weapons.
If there would be a reliable way to get the weapons, weekly could provide exclusive golden jewelry, why not. The problem with Zos is that they tried to cure the symptoms, not the disease itself. Due to bad weapon drop rate people used leaderboards just for exra chance for fire staff/sharpened dagger/whatever.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Starting to think that @Seido_Tensei_ is the greatest troll of all time! It is really quite impressive.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Starting to think that @Seido_Tensei_ is the greatest troll of all time! It is really quite impressive.

This or maybe just a mazochist

I'm not sure.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Im not a racist and Im not saying that Koreans cant make good games. But their mmos are notorious for these rng and p2w issues, and stuff like this shouldnt belong to ESO.

I never said they did....you brought it up man.
rng is a common loot concept that was not invented by the Korean gaming industry. It just happens to go hand in hand with P2W which their industry has adopted as the norm currently. If you are insinuating that ZOS is also going in that direction, you may be correct. But that has nothing to do with RNG. Many games offer RNG loot systems and have no corresponding P2W mechanics. Let's just leave this one alone.

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Its not the worst case, its a pretty common case, that's the thing.
I know people with good leaderboard scores who still cannot get what they want, how's that fair.
Chance to get a perfect item on the first run... Well, I thought you were against instant gratification?

"One Extreme" may be a better term then "worst case". Yeah I know the story...

What about the one where someone spent 15 hours in the arena and got the item they wanted on the first try vs the guy who pays every week for someone to do his Maelstrom run? Now Rng seems pretty balanced huh?

Please don't say one situation is more common than the other. We have no statistics to say otherwise.

Yeah we need a better loot system, I have made my feelings on BiS difficulty very clear.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Derra wrote: »

If you´re faster with your 100 runs than it´s a fair system because you reward someone for being more competent in completing the content. Someone is better and gets to the finish line faster (it´s only a problem when looking at classbalance).

The effort level to complete the arena is the same for everyone. NPCs have the same HP everyone fights the same mechanics.

All of this can´t be compared in the slightest to the complete removal of certain gear - because what i´ve discribed would not have any negative impacts on other players.
That´s why i would implement it on other gear grinds aswell. RGN is always bad not only in vmsa.

@Derra What about class imbalance? I bet a sorc could do 100 runs much faster than my templar. Still fair? The one dimensional thinking is real....lets just stay with your loot idea.

EDIT: sorry that was mean, analogies/straw-man are really tough over the internet as the meaning gets lost. I know what you are trying to say, I am saying there is more to it.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Starting to think that @Seido_Tensei_ is the greatest troll of all time! It is really quite impressive.

Shhhhhhhhhh.......

Derra · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you´re faster with your 100 runs than it´s a fair system because you reward someone for being more competent in completing the content. Someone is better and gets to the finish line faster (it´s only a problem when looking at classbalance).

The effort level to complete the arena is the same for everyone. NPCs have the same HP everyone fights the same mechanics.

All of this can´t be compared in the slightest to the complete removal of certain gear - because what i´ve discribed would not have any negative impacts on other players.
That´s why i would implement it on other gear grinds aswell. RGN is always bad not only in vmsa.

@Derra What about class imbalance? I bet a sorc could do 100 runs much faster than my templar. Still fair? The one dimensional thinking is real....lets just stay with your loot idea.

Do you even read what i´ve wrote? I specifically pointed out class balance could be a problem. But since i manage to get 59 minute runs on my magica bosmer templar and my fastest sorc runs are about 51 mins it might not be thaaaat big of a problem.
15% more time investment is nothing compared to 15000% more time investment possible with the current system on top of having those class inequalities anyway.
What do you tell a templar players who takes longer and has bad luck with the current system. Your statement does not make sense.

LadyNalcarya · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

What about the one where someone spent 15 hours in the arena and got the item they wanted on the first try vs the guy who pays every week for someone to do his Maelstrom run? Now Rng seems pretty balanced huh?

Please don't say one situation is more common than the other. We have no statistics to say otherwise.

Yeah we need a better loot system, I have made my feelings on BiS difficulty very clear.

Well, you can get a general impression of player's perception of vMA from reading forums and talking to people who do it on regular basis and have high scores.
As for paying people for vMA runs, I think that's against the license, like botting and such. So its basically cheating vs legit run. But if its really a common practice it just shows how badly Zos have failed with inventing vMA.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Derra wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you´re faster with your 100 runs than it´s a fair system because you reward someone for being more competent in completing the content. Someone is better and gets to the finish line faster (it´s only a problem when looking at classbalance).

The effort level to complete the arena is the same for everyone. NPCs have the same HP everyone fights the same mechanics.

All of this can´t be compared in the slightest to the complete removal of certain gear - because what i´ve discribed would not have any negative impacts on other players.
That´s why i would implement it on other gear grinds aswell. RGN is always bad not only in vmsa.

@Derra What about class imbalance? I bet a sorc could do 100 runs much faster than my templar. Still fair? The one dimensional thinking is real....lets just stay with your loot idea.

Do you even read what i´ve wrote? I specifically pointed out class balance could be a problem. But since i manage to get 59 minute runs on my magica bosmer templar and my fastest sorc runs are about 51 mins it might not be thaaaat big of a problem.
15% more time investment is nothing compared to 15000% more time investment possible with the current system on top of having those class inequalities anyway.
What do you tell a templar players who takes longer and has bad luck with the current system. Your statement does not make sense.

@Derra Nope I didn't read it. My apologies..... so if you understand class imbalance is an issue why make the suggestion? But I would also argue the optimal strategies for Templar are much less straight forward than Sorcerers and Templars have a higher gear threshold necessary to complete the arena. So the effort to get a Templar to 59 minute run is even more than a sorc to a 51 minute run. That is only speculation.

What do I tell my Templars? Don't worry about it......They fixed toppling charge and give us more healing options /s

Nah but for real, any Templar that has stuck it out and is still in the arena probably needs no encouragement from me and they probably are doing what the need to do in order to stay relevant.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

KoshkaMurka wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

What about the one where someone spent 15 hours in the arena and got the item they wanted on the first try vs the guy who pays every week for someone to do his Maelstrom run? Now Rng seems pretty balanced huh?

Please don't say one situation is more common than the other. We have no statistics to say otherwise.

Yeah we need a better loot system, I have made my feelings on BiS difficulty very clear.

Well, you can get a general impression of player's perception of vMA from reading forums and talking to people who do it on regular basis and have high scores.
As for paying people for vMA runs, I think that's against the license, like botting and such. So its basically cheating vs legit run. But if its really a common practice it just shows how badly Zos have failed with inventing vMA.

IF they made it group content, it would be the same thing (weaker players getting carried). It happens all the time....at least this way its a violation of ZOS-ToS so something in theory could be done about it. Still hard to prove. Man the arena hate is real....it was a solid piece of content, just clearly not for everyone.

Derra · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

If you´re faster with your 100 runs than it´s a fair system because you reward someone for being more competent in completing the content. Someone is better and gets to the finish line faster (it´s only a problem when looking at classbalance).

The effort level to complete the arena is the same for everyone. NPCs have the same HP everyone fights the same mechanics.

All of this can´t be compared in the slightest to the complete removal of certain gear - because what i´ve discribed would not have any negative impacts on other players.
That´s why i would implement it on other gear grinds aswell. RGN is always bad not only in vmsa.

@Derra What about class imbalance? I bet a sorc could do 100 runs much faster than my templar. Still fair? The one dimensional thinking is real....lets just stay with your loot idea.

Do you even read what i´ve wrote? I specifically pointed out class balance could be a problem. But since i manage to get 59 minute runs on my magica bosmer templar and my fastest sorc runs are about 51 mins it might not be thaaaat big of a problem.
15% more time investment is nothing compared to 15000% more time investment possible with the current system on top of having those class inequalities anyway.
What do you tell a templar players who takes longer and has bad luck with the current system. Your statement does not make sense.

@Derra Nope I didn't read it. My apologies..... so if you understand class imbalance is an issue why make the suggestion? But I would also argue the optimal strategies for Templar are much less straight forward than Sorcerers and Templars have a higher gear threshold necessary to complete the arena. So the effort to get a Templar to 59 minute run is even more than a sorc to a 51 minute run. That is only speculation.

What do I tell my Templars? Don't worry about it......They fixed toppling charge and give us more healing options /s

Nah but for real, any Templar that has stuck it out and is still in the arena probably needs no encouragement from me and they probably are doing what the need to do in order to stay relevant.

Because class balance has nothing to do with the suggestion. Class balance is a problem in both scenarios because in both scenarios templars will take roughly 15% more time to get the same result.

Be sure we agree completely on not giving away engame gear for free. I´m just hoping for zos to implement a way that gets rid of the the negative implications it can have on the game while keeping the positive ones.

I also do feel your pain for the way zenimax treats the templar class. I don´t understand what they envision for that class. I´d love to play my templar more but there´s little reason to do so.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · February 2016

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Yeah we need a better loot system, I have made my feelings on BiS difficulty very clear.

Buddy, that is what the rest of the thread has been talking about. We need a better loot system. Nobody is arguing to make this stuff easy to get. Nobody (I dont think) has suggested making this Maelstrom weapons BoE. It might make me selfish, but I love the fact that I have weapons others dont because I am able to clear the content. We just want there to be meaningful progression. We want a path outlined to obtain the things we want. Personally I think 100 clears for a weapon of your choosing is a little high. To me 20-30 clears seems about right. If you think about it, that is probably 30-50 hours for a very competent player to get a weapon, and most players want more than one thing out of this place. I dont think most people are consistantly clearing in less than 90 minutes. If you can, more power to you. Your extra skill means your path is a little shorter than the rest, but you still need to walk the path. That is how it should be.

Seido_Tensei_ · February 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Seido_Tensei_ wrote: »

Yeah we need a better loot system, I have made my feelings on BiS difficulty very clear.

Buddy, that is what the rest of the thread has been talking about. We need a better loot system. Nobody is arguing to make this stuff easy to get. Nobody (I dont think) has suggested making this Maelstrom weapons BoE. It might make me selfish, but I love the fact that I have weapons others dont because I am able to clear the content. We just want there to be meaningful progression. We want a path outlined to obtain the things we want. Personally I think 100 clears for a weapon of your choosing is a little high. To me 20-30 clears seems about right. If you think about it, that is probably 30-50 hours for a very competent player to get a weapon, and most players want more than one thing out of this place. I dont think most people are consistantly clearing in less than 90 minutes. If you can, more power to you. Your extra skill means your path is a little shorter than the rest, but you still need to walk the path. That is how it should be.

Can you just let this die already? What you are proposing is not better. That is why I am forced to argue in favor of RNG. Please stop with your estimation of what feels right. 30 runs feels right to you, maybe too long for someone else.

@Derra was the only one productive enough to come up with a loot system idea that is not taking away the positive aspects of RNG.

@Oreyn_Bearclaw you clearly consistently miss the spirit of what I am trying to say. Yes we need a better loot system but what does that look like? I have no idea and I never did, so I would defer to RNG as a better system than what most are suggesting.

In short DO NOT CHANGE RNG until there is a real viable alternative that:

-Does not make loot easier to obtain
-Is fair for all classes & races & play styles
-Allows for the best players to have opportunity at exclusive rewards
-Allows for weaker players to still obtain BiS gear at a slower rate that advance players
-Cannot be influenced by gold buying/selling economy
-Provide continuing incentive to run content over the course of the game (seems I will run Spindle until end of time for a damn divine or impen helm)

and I am sure there are more aspects than even this. I am arguing RNG BOP does this...maybe not perfectly, but it satisfies those points on average. I am not saying RNG is the system we need, I am saying it is the system we deserve.