The only thing I will add to Ezareth's comments is the following: right now, with CP capped at 501, the numerical advantages of stamina are not fully achievable. Simply inspecting the CP bonuses reveal clear advantages. However, shield stacking does remain a huge advantage.

(PS. Maelstrom arena gonna get magicka Sorc nerfed)

Ezareth wrote: »

giinoz2011rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Hi all, please don't burn me for this.

I have read somewhere that ZOS changed the Nirn items so that it's not beneficial to have a full set of Nirn armor anymore.
That it's only effective for up to two nirn armor items is this correct?

Thanks in advance.


One problem with the internet is so much misinformation and crap so I turn to my peers for their wisdom and assistance.

Nirnhoned Armor used to have a multiplicative effect with your entire spell resistance which was broken. It made since to equip multiple pieces in order to achieve the hard cap of resistance. Now however it was changed to basically be Reinforced with a 50% higher value but for Spell Resistance alone instead of Armor + Spell Resistance. It really doesn't make sense to craft at all, even on one piece since it is at Legendary Rank just +24% Spell Resistance on that item piece alone.

Thanks Ezareth for the explanation.
ZOS need to put it back the way it was or they need in game avatars getting flogged or heads on a spike for this.

When in Beta I started out with non mage, and followed a player as a mage, they flew through the game, while non mages had a hard slog and had to actually play the game.

Seems now they are handicapping players by stuffing this higher level trait, (Higher level by being at VR1 to enter Upper Craglorn to find trait mats, and ways of collecting items via drop by certain quests only.) they may as well give higher drop rates for weapons and Nirn mats and allow pickup everywhere as it's now worth less than the effort to get it.

Taking the time and effort to learn all the traits and hard work to get to be able to craft Nirnhoned then have that trait's abilities reduced to virtual crap was a waste of time and effort playing this game to get Nirnhoned trait ability.

ZOS are killing the incentive of playing this game, the ones that benefited form full abilities that as of now can not be achieved by anyone is discouraging a and indication ZOS don't care about their clients playing this game.

Friends of mine have stopped playing this game due to bugs and the crippling ZOS implement at updates.
This latest one is unforgivable.

I've been slogging it out helping other players, guild members and friends, trying to get my friends whom have let to come back, sadly I'm seriously considering notifying all my guilds that I may go indefinitely from this game as well as the ones whom have left as they made the RIGHT call and left this game.

Ezareth wrote: »

You seem to be in the mood to argue with people on any point made. The bias exists in the math and it's well documented by the community. I'm not going to get into the minutia of specific class abilities as that would lead down a whole separate tangent. On example that touches on a couple points you made is Evil Hunter is a hybrid of both Elemental Drain and Magelight. You get bonus Crit, stamina restore (only on undead/Daedra which isn't everything) and it does bonus damage. There are a ton of abilities that are better in some situations and worse in others. We both know that slotting *any* ability is a cost itself so there is nothing that is "Free" per se.

If you want to argue of the difficulty of playing a melee build versus a ranged build I'll agree with you ranged builds have always had it easier in PvE than melee builds in every game I've played including ESO. I'm not sure how it could be otherwise TBH.

Doesn't Vigor/Rally scale with Stamina/weapon damage and all of your damage CPs? Maxing your stamina doesn't allow you dodge roll/block more?

Didn't you just state that 4% Penetration only equals 1% Damage and is worse than 60 Weapon damage in one argument, while in this argument you're trying to say that Light Armor Concentration is somehow better than 12% Weapon damage?

Do you seriously think the *20%* Armor penetration given by Maces to *everything you do* in PvE is somehow worse than the
10% penetration you get from Penetrating magick which is only applied to Destro abilities which in all scenarios that count is limited to Impulse (lol....who knows if anyone even uses this in PvE) and Force Pulse.

Speaking of AoE.....when was the last time you Compared Steel Tornado to Impulse...or Magicka Detonation? Do I even need to make that comparison? I'm sure you're well aware of both.

I'm not going to try to argue with you on the PvE side of things as I'm not experienced enough there to tell you what is what because I've always found it boring compared to PvP. Maybe when I get a few Maelstrom clears under my belt and optimize my build to something other than PvP for it I'll offer my opinion, but in PvP right now Stamina Nightblades are the most powerful class in PvP right now and it's not solely because they're a nightblade.

Look at the champion system and find me a good Magicka passive that has no stamina equal. There have been dozens of threads about the bias in the champion system and the scaling of stamina builds with high CPs far surpass the scaling of magicka builds.

I only argue with points that are opinion based and not fact based, and points that are often misguided.
Evil Hunter's stamina return is extremely lack luster compared to a universal return by placing a buff. Both require a cost to apply, yes, so free was a poor choice. EH has a 15% chance to return ~800 (750 rank 1) stamina, on a 15% proc chance, with a 5 second ICD. Ele drain returns 564 per elemental source (3 times with force pulse) and has no ICD, and force siphon is a % base on all attacks. Just looking at basic spamming of an ability+weave thats anywhere from 1000 to 2000 magicka return per second. If you've run a trail at all you'll see that magicka sustain is almost never a problem as long as you have something to hit. When I used the term free, I meant you don't need to really go out of your way besides application of it to benefit, while stamina either needs constant fresh corpses or a 20 second ICD synergy (repent/shards).

Vigor and Rally do scale as offensive stats increase, but they require casts to benefit from, and are HoTs- not on demand heals that take me from 0-100% unless Rally has been up for a longer period. It also gets costly to spam, as Rally's cost was amped up quite a bit in 2.1. We also lack (aside from sorcs) a healing damage ability such as Inhale, Sap Essence, or Puncturing Sweeps, which are all caster based abilities.

12% weapon damage is still subjective to mitigation losses, meaning it's value is never 12% WD worth unless you're hitting critters or naked bafoons in PvP. 12% WD for most high end PvE builds that focus purely on damage is ~425-500 WD worth with full buffs , which is about a 3-5% dps value (calculated by taking 500 WD to each class's WD bread and butter coefficients and averaged, for NB Surprise attack is 1.35091:1, 1.35091 x 500 = 675. Most high end stam builds are pulling ~20k single target dps, 675 added damage per hit of SA (get one off every .8 seconds, so 1/.8 x 675 = 843 / 20000. 4.22% dps rounded up). The LA penetration offers 4884 penetration which is equivalent it 7.4% (4884/660) damage mitigaion, which is almost double of agility, without looking at mitigation losses of agility either. What was that about documented values?

20% amor REDUCTION, not penetration. Maces are highly subjective to dps value, as their strength is dependant on how armored the target is. Also, flat penetration such as sharpened/piercing strikes/etc reduce the efficiency of this passive. In order to be a 5% dps value like swords, a target needs 16500 armor (.20 x 16500 = 3300. 3300/660= 5). Most end game mobs have ~18k-20k armor, but major fracture reduces that to 13-15k, putting them under swords (which casters can equally benefit from!) I'll agree the destro penetration isn't as good for non sorcs though, but its still free DPS that you have just for using a staff of any type, unlike maces (which are pure garbage mathematically compared to daggers)

The one thing stam has is AoE, which is why it wasn't in my argument. Stam is crushed in single target DPS compared to caster, so we need something to make us semi competent, right?

In terms of CP the only lack of balance is the fact is that Hardy/Ele defender exist, but no equal to flat Physical damage reduction exists. Spell shield and Armor mastery negate one another as they are both an equal % of a %, but nothing equals Hardy/ele defender, which I agree is a problem in PvP. In terms of offensive capabilities however, they are both equal in CP options. In fact, stamina actually has to spread its point out even more than casters builds due to the vastly varying amounts of damage types we deal, as well as the different types of weapons in use.

I'm just tired of hearing this complaint of nerfing stamina builds. We've been leagues behind casters in PvE since day one and the only time we came nearly close to them was because of bugs. Stamina's strength is burst, so of course you'll see cheesy builds in PvP, but with the changes to regen while blocking, stacking roll dodging costs, and loss of regen on passives in the past 2 updates, that's all they have. There are still equally bursty caster builds out there that out preform stamina nightblades when pulled off properly. Consider this, if you took stealth play(a counterable play style via many means) out of staminablades, do you think they'd still be that good in PvP?

@Gilliamtherogue have you run the numbers on infused vs. sharpened for the inferno staff?

Ezareth wrote: »

Just to be clear, we're both tired of the nerf calls and you'll never hear me supporting one. I pointed out my facts regarding the mathematical stamina bias because it exists but that doesn't mean I think that stamina is too strong or magicka. My main objective is in not seeing that mathematical advantage extended due to a continued lack of Nirnhoned weapons in end game drops.

On the penetration isn't the sharpened penetration also reduced by major fracture as well? As I said I'm a PvP theorycrafter and do all my testing and math in PvP so when it comes to Mob armor values and group buffs/debuffs etc I'll never speak from authority. I do know I have both a V16 2hand sword and a V16 2hand mace and against any mob I've tested on the mace does far more damage than the sword and the only thing in PvP I'd use the sword on is when fighting sorcs who have no armor on their shields anyways.

As far as the CP imbalances you pointed out biggest comparison which is the lack of a defensive physical ability but you also may not be aware that many of these CP abilities will actually stack with each other against many attacks (Thick skinned and Hardy for example both stack against many attacks that are considered "Dots" that are also magic damage).

The next biggest issue is the CP passives. Unchained is amazing compared to Arcane well which is next to useless. In PvP Critical Leech, spell absorbtion and resilient favor builds that don't rely on damage shields. Shadowstrike is so good that in 1.7 they had to nerf it because there were NBs who were 2-shoting people and remaining in stealth the entire getting the stealth guaranteed crit and bonus on every opener. Phase is minor but every stamina build benefits from it while a magicka build doesn't. Retaliation, Reposte, Butcher and Tactician all provide massive damage increases when fighting players and marginal benefits in PvE. Then there is Opportunist and exploiter in the Ritual tree that all melee players will have along with Heroism which is pretty amazing as well and no caster will ever get it without wasting 20 CPs. I don't want to get into these abilities comparisons as I said each ability has its place but the CP system has a strong stamina bias and you can't really deny that.

I agree that magicka sustain is far easier to manage than stamina sustain, at least on single target encounters but I also think that most magicka users also have a far larger magicka pool because a stamina user will generally have more health. It is easier for magicka users to gain magicka and it is easier for stamina users to gain weapon damage.

As of patch 2.1 when penetration was "fixed", it was changed from a complicated stat that multiplied with different sources to a basic stat that clumped all together and offered a flat damage increase, similar to Major/Minor breach. However, it is still calculated after all other flat reductions. The priority of calculation of any source of inhibitor of armor is flat reduction (Major/minor breach), flat penetration (twin fanged snake), % penetration (sharpened, piercing strikes), and finally, % reduction (maces, infalliable aether). So major/minor breach as well as % penetration would reduce the overall reduction that maces would provide us. Let's say I have 100 piercing, and Major Breach. Thats -5280 armor to target, and a 25% penetration to that target after that, and then finally a 20% reduction of armor to that left over value. In order to have 5% damage worth we'd need a target with 27280 armor. 27280 - 5280 = 20625. 22000 x .75 (25% worth of penetration leaves a 75% efficiency) = 16500. 16500 x .2 = 3300. 3300/660 = 5%. They'd need even more armor if you had a sharpened weapon AND full piercing. Since maces are calculated last, they are actually hurt immensely by other forms of pen. I've spent hours and hours as well as over 10 full pages of notes breaking down the order of calculation by trial and error.

Arcane Well in PvP = pretty meh, but in PvE = amazing. Unchained in PvP = great, but in PvE = highly situational. You'd save more stamina dodge rolling the CC or just blocking it. Shadowstrike is something that very very few builds will be taking with the 501 CP cap, as you sacrafice so much between cost reduction and regen. Phase is a 1% damage mitigation which can almost be ignored completely as the buff begins as you dodge roll instead of when you finish it meaning you're getting less than 2 seconds out of it. Retaliation/Reposte/Butcher/Tactician are all equally beneficial to casters so can be ignored when comparing stam vs caster (also who spends that many points into the Atronach when there are wayyyy better damage options with the 501 cap). I agree Exploiter is fairly strong and favors stamina builds slightly over casters (at least non templars/sorcs) as we prefer to spend points in the Ritual. Opportunist is an unparalleled passive in terms of damage, even if you compare it to Vengance. Last Stand is very nice in PvP but is highly situational and often unable to be capitalized upon since being at 20% or lower health often means you are near death, and you have likely casted your ultimate recently. I do not think it's useless however. Over time with higher CP caps the only imbalance truly left will be the point nodes themselves which we have discussed and agreed upon.

As for the health regard, both specs run roughly the same amount. The only time it's different is what gear you use, a lot of older stamina builds were forced into health jewelry or set bonuses, while caster builds weren't as much. With the implementation of the three piece sets it's clear that both specs have almost identical health without having to glyph/spend attributes/etc in doing so. All casters I see in top tier trials have 18-20k health, and same goes for stamina builds. It is very true that casters have much higher magicka than spell damage, the same as stamina builds have more weapon damage than stamina. In the end due to the scaling system of CP (% gains for each point spent in a constellation) resources pools begin to out scale spell damage around 600 CP, and even lower depending on racials/barred abilities.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Just to be clear, we're both tired of the nerf calls and you'll never hear me supporting one. I pointed out my facts regarding the mathematical stamina bias because it exists but that doesn't mean I think that stamina is too strong or magicka. My main objective is in not seeing that mathematical advantage extended due to a continued lack of Nirnhoned weapons in end game drops.

On the penetration isn't the sharpened penetration also reduced by major fracture as well? As I said I'm a PvP theorycrafter and do all my testing and math in PvP so when it comes to Mob armor values and group buffs/debuffs etc I'll never speak from authority. I do know I have both a V16 2hand sword and a V16 2hand mace and against any mob I've tested on the mace does far more damage than the sword and the only thing in PvP I'd use the sword on is when fighting sorcs who have no armor on their shields anyways.

As far as the CP imbalances you pointed out biggest comparison which is the lack of a defensive physical ability but you also may not be aware that many of these CP abilities will actually stack with each other against many attacks (Thick skinned and Hardy for example both stack against many attacks that are considered "Dots" that are also magic damage).

The next biggest issue is the CP passives. Unchained is amazing compared to Arcane well which is next to useless. In PvP Critical Leech, spell absorbtion and resilient favor builds that don't rely on damage shields. Shadowstrike is so good that in 1.7 they had to nerf it because there were NBs who were 2-shoting people and remaining in stealth the entire getting the stealth guaranteed crit and bonus on every opener. Phase is minor but every stamina build benefits from it while a magicka build doesn't. Retaliation, Reposte, Butcher and Tactician all provide massive damage increases when fighting players and marginal benefits in PvE. Then there is Opportunist and exploiter in the Ritual tree that all melee players will have along with Heroism which is pretty amazing as well and no caster will ever get it without wasting 20 CPs. I don't want to get into these abilities comparisons as I said each ability has its place but the CP system has a strong stamina bias and you can't really deny that.

I agree that magicka sustain is far easier to manage than stamina sustain, at least on single target encounters but I also think that most magicka users also have a far larger magicka pool because a stamina user will generally have more health. It is easier for magicka users to gain magicka and it is easier for stamina users to gain weapon damage.

As of patch 2.1 when penetration was "fixed", it was changed from a complicated stat that multiplied with different sources to a basic stat that clumped all together and offered a flat damage increase, similar to Major/Minor breach. However, it is still calculated after all other flat reductions. The priority of calculation of any source of inhibitor of armor is flat reduction (Major/minor breach), flat penetration (twin fanged snake), % penetration (sharpened, piercing strikes), and finally, % reduction (maces, infalliable aether). So major/minor breach as well as % penetration would reduce the overall reduction that maces would provide us. Let's say I have 100 piercing, and Major Breach. Thats -5280 armor to target, and a 25% penetration to that target after that, and then finally a 20% reduction of armor to that left over value. In order to have 5% damage worth we'd need a target with 27280 armor. 27280 - 5280 = 20625. 22000 x .75 (25% worth of penetration leaves a 75% efficiency) = 16500. 16500 x .2 = 3300. 3300/660 = 5%. They'd need even more armor if you had a sharpened weapon AND full piercing. Since maces are calculated last, they are actually hurt immensely by other forms of pen. I've spent hours and hours as well as over 10 full pages of notes breaking down the order of calculation by trial and error.

Arcane Well in PvP = pretty meh, but in PvE = amazing. Unchained in PvP = great, but in PvE = highly situational. You'd save more stamina dodge rolling the CC or just blocking it. Shadowstrike is something that very very few builds will be taking with the 501 CP cap, as you sacrafice so much between cost reduction and regen. Phase is a 1% damage mitigation which can almost be ignored completely as the buff begins as you dodge roll instead of when you finish it meaning you're getting less than 2 seconds out of it. Retaliation/Reposte/Butcher/Tactician are all equally beneficial to casters so can be ignored when comparing stam vs caster (also who spends that many points into the Atronach when there are wayyyy better damage options with the 501 cap). I agree Exploiter is fairly strong and favors stamina builds slightly over casters (at least non templars/sorcs) as we prefer to spend points in the Ritual. Opportunist is an unparalleled passive in terms of damage, even if you compare it to Vengance. Last Stand is very nice in PvP but is highly situational and often unable to be capitalized upon since being at 20% or lower health often means you are near death, and you have likely casted your ultimate recently. I do not think it's useless however. Over time with higher CP caps the only imbalance truly left will be the point nodes themselves which we have discussed and agreed upon.

As for the health regard, both specs run roughly the same amount. The only time it's different is what gear you use, a lot of older stamina builds were forced into health jewelry or set bonuses, while caster builds weren't as much. With the implementation of the three piece sets it's clear that both specs have almost identical health without having to glyph/spend attributes/etc in doing so. All casters I see in top tier trials have 18-20k health, and same goes for stamina builds. It is very true that casters have much higher magicka than spell damage, the same as stamina builds have more weapon damage than stamina. In the end due to the scaling system of CP (% gains for each point spent in a constellation) resources pools begin to out scale spell damage around 600 CP, and even lower depending on racials/barred abilities.

I agree the CP cap has staved off the majority of issues the imbalance presents I only wanted to point out its existence.

I'd be interested in a link to your testing on the penetration. I've tested penetration far too many times throughout the years and I'm sick to death of having to retest it every single patch as aspects of it have changed about a dozen times so far.

I'll double check my Mace versus sword again in PvP and determine again which I prefer.

On the exploiter there are several abilities that actually proc this which do not state they proc it like Mass Hysteria for example. Fear a group of mobs and then Steel Tornado or Soul Harvest and you'll notice a 10% bonus.

Attronach is actually pretty good for stam builds or at least it was before they fixed crit damage this patch (I'll need to retest that).

The shadowstrike NBs I was speaking off were in the 1500-2000 CP range and it was a damn nightmare fighting them. I think much of the problem is resolved now with the nerf as well as the cap.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I agree the CP cap has staved off the majority of issues the imbalance presents I only wanted to point out its existence.

I'd be interested in a link to your testing on the penetration. I've tested penetration far too many times throughout the years and I'm sick to death of having to retest it every single patch as aspects of it have changed about a dozen times so far.

I'll double check my Mace versus sword again in PvP and determine again which I prefer.

On the exploiter there are several abilities that actually proc this which do not state they proc it like Mass Hysteria for example. Fear a group of mobs and then Steel Tornado or Soul Harvest and you'll notice a 10% bonus.

Attronach is actually pretty good for stam builds or at least it was before they fixed crit damage this patch (I'll need to retest that).

The shadowstrike NBs I was speaking off were in the 1500-2000 CP range and it was a damn nightmare fighting them. I think much of the problem is resolved now with the nerf as well as the cap.

Unfortunately all of my calculations are written down on paper in many notebooks I keep by my desk. I have already filled a 300 page college ruled one, and am about 1/3rd through a new one. As my signature suggests, I theory craft a lot :P In patch 2.0 when sharpened was bugged, maces completely lost to swords, but when 2.1 hit that changed. Maces begun winning, but only because the dual wield sword passive was broken and giving 5% spell+wep damage instead of 5% damage, making them obsolete. In my comparison for PvE, even before precise strikes/hemmorrhage/Minor+Major Force were fixed, daggers and precise were both beating maces and sharpened in any given situation. In PvP it varies between player, depending if they have points in resilient, or impenetrable items (although I've found a majority of "good" pvpers don't run impen much anymore) but now that all CHD is fixed, I still would find it difficult giving up the crit, especially with my CHD amp being absurdly high...

On the note of exploiter, the tooltip is actually quite misleading and there are some hidden mechanics going on that'd make you think it's a bug. Off balance simply refers to any loss of movement CC, but also applies to bosses who are immune to CC. For example, if you've ever hit a boss who can't be stunned with Flame Lash (the DK ability) you'll notice that the free cast can proc on them, without them actually being off balance. That is because they are internally effected by the status ailment, so that passives are not completely useless. Fear, stuns, and exploitable (dizzy/swirly lines above) all proc exploiter, even if an enemy is immune.

Atronach in terms of damage (all it gives is LA/HA damage nodes) was always a quality of life sort of thing. The passive unlocks are all above average, but the nodes in order to get them are all severely weaker compared to their flat damage counter parts (Mighty/Thaumaturge/Elemental Expert). Even in comparison to some of the more situational nodes like CHD or penetration that don't have set values, the LA+HA damage increase is rather low when compared. Let's say my overall DPS is 20k, and weaving (LA) takes up about 15% of that DPS, or 3000. At maximum efficiency I'd have a 25% bonus to that, which is an additional 750 dps boost. In turn Mighty would be 25% to all of my kit, and lets say all half of my kit is physical damage, and is equal to 10k of my dps. 25% of that is now 2500 instead of 750, as it effects more stuff. Even things like CHD can be calculated based on apply the CHD x Crit chance (For me, 25% precise strikes mutliplied by my 81.9% crit chance, is a 20.475% dps boost, while that LA damage was only 25% of 15%, or 3.75% dps) Atronach is pretty much just a point sink to squeeze out some extra little DPS after you've expended all of your really big impact nodes.

Shame it had to get nerfed, I enjoyed soloing vDSA on PTS with the 3600 cap simply because of that passsive

I'm definitely going to have to retest things.

So you're saying for dual wield *daggers* is the way to go for AoE? And hemmorrhage was only giving half benefit as well?

And Impenetrable is still the best trait on small pieces in PvP unless you rely on damage shields for your primary defense. My Nightblade runs with well over 30% Crit resistance ( =

Makkir wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'd be interested in a link to your testing on the penetration.

@Ezareth as info that link is NSFW

I guess that depends on where you work

Ezareth wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I agree the CP cap has staved off the majority of issues the imbalance presents I only wanted to point out its existence.

I'd be interested in a link to your testing on the penetration. I've tested penetration far too many times throughout the years and I'm sick to death of having to retest it every single patch as aspects of it have changed about a dozen times so far.

I'll double check my Mace versus sword again in PvP and determine again which I prefer.

On the exploiter there are several abilities that actually proc this which do not state they proc it like Mass Hysteria for example. Fear a group of mobs and then Steel Tornado or Soul Harvest and you'll notice a 10% bonus.

Attronach is actually pretty good for stam builds or at least it was before they fixed crit damage this patch (I'll need to retest that).

The shadowstrike NBs I was speaking off were in the 1500-2000 CP range and it was a damn nightmare fighting them. I think much of the problem is resolved now with the nerf as well as the cap.

Unfortunately all of my calculations are written down on paper in many notebooks I keep by my desk. I have already filled a 300 page college ruled one, and am about 1/3rd through a new one. As my signature suggests, I theory craft a lot :P In patch 2.0 when sharpened was bugged, maces completely lost to swords, but when 2.1 hit that changed. Maces begun winning, but only because the dual wield sword passive was broken and giving 5% spell+wep damage instead of 5% damage, making them obsolete. In my comparison for PvE, even before precise strikes/hemmorrhage/Minor+Major Force were fixed, daggers and precise were both beating maces and sharpened in any given situation. In PvP it varies between player, depending if they have points in resilient, or impenetrable items (although I've found a majority of "good" pvpers don't run impen much anymore) but now that all CHD is fixed, I still would find it difficult giving up the crit, especially with my CHD amp being absurdly high...

On the note of exploiter, the tooltip is actually quite misleading and there are some hidden mechanics going on that'd make you think it's a bug. Off balance simply refers to any loss of movement CC, but also applies to bosses who are immune to CC. For example, if you've ever hit a boss who can't be stunned with Flame Lash (the DK ability) you'll notice that the free cast can proc on them, without them actually being off balance. That is because they are internally effected by the status ailment, so that passives are not completely useless. Fear, stuns, and exploitable (dizzy/swirly lines above) all proc exploiter, even if an enemy is immune.

Atronach in terms of damage (all it gives is LA/HA damage nodes) was always a quality of life sort of thing. The passive unlocks are all above average, but the nodes in order to get them are all severely weaker compared to their flat damage counter parts (Mighty/Thaumaturge/Elemental Expert). Even in comparison to some of the more situational nodes like CHD or penetration that don't have set values, the LA+HA damage increase is rather low when compared. Let's say my overall DPS is 20k, and weaving (LA) takes up about 15% of that DPS, or 3000. At maximum efficiency I'd have a 25% bonus to that, which is an additional 750 dps boost. In turn Mighty would be 25% to all of my kit, and lets say all half of my kit is physical damage, and is equal to 10k of my dps. 25% of that is now 2500 instead of 750, as it effects more stuff. Even things like CHD can be calculated based on apply the CHD x Crit chance (For me, 25% precise strikes mutliplied by my 81.9% crit chance, is a 20.475% dps boost, while that LA damage was only 25% of 15%, or 3.75% dps) Atronach is pretty much just a point sink to squeeze out some extra little DPS after you've expended all of your really big impact nodes.

Shame it had to get nerfed, I enjoyed soloing vDSA on PTS with the 3600 cap simply because of that passsive

I'm definitely going to have to retest things.

So you're saying for dual wield *daggers* is the way to go for AoE? And hemmorrhage was only giving half benefit as well?

And Impenetrable is still the best trait on small pieces in PvP unless you rely on damage shields for your primary defense. My Nightblade runs with well over 30% Crit resistance ( =

Aye, dual daggers is the best choice for overall DPS options in terms of weapons, as well as precise for traits. With CHD able to reach astonishing numbers thanks to the CHD fixes, crit's DPS value has increased even more (already was pretty high with NB/temp+full divines shadow). That goes for AoE and single target.

Murmeltier wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I truly hope nirnhoned remains "crafting-exclusive".

I don't think anyone is asking that sets start randomly dropping with nirn trait. Ez is just arguing about Maelstrom weapons.

When the best rewards hidden behind the hardest solo content and some pretty bad RNG, are inferior to what any crafter can make in 2 mins then we have a problem.

It's not like there'll be thousands of players with these Maelstrom staves. It's highly unlikely that anything more than a small percentage of the players will even get to own one.

I am sure that the Devs never planned to make better Gear, obtainable only through hard Content, then crafting Gear. If they follow this Way they destroy the Motivation for the Crafting System. Sanctum, vDSA and vMA offers the Option to get slightly better Equip but if they offer perfect Weapons with perfect Traits, every Player will be forced to make this Content.

Zos moves really in the wrong Direction, one off the facinating Things in Teso is the Crafting System, nothing should offer you better Equip. Equal, yes but not better. We have really a Problem if a Player only needs to run some Hours through a Content, to get the best Weapons. Crafters worked for Months and invested a lot of Money, to get the Option to craft high End Equip.

And stop writing such elitist Nonsense, vMA is a hard but a really stupid Content. You have to reduce your Build to several Shield or Selfheals and some Dps, thats all.

Such Builds doesnt make more Damage then pure PvE Builds outside from vMA, or use more Skills. You learn the Position from the Enemys and do always the same, like in vDSA before. The only hard Thing in vMA is the Damage you get, not the Tactic or Skill you need.

But it feels better if someone can say: " I solved the vMA with the highest Numbers, so i am the best Player of Class XY". Dream on, you are only the "Hero" of vMA, that doesnt makes you to the best Player of your Class. Why you should get BiC Equip?

And the only Reason why vMA is full of Damage is not the Devy wants to offer you skilled Content, they only make it so hard because they have to bind the Players to the Game, so they dont leave. But it is only the incoming Damage, not the Tactic there. So if you mean that you have to get some BiC Equip there, stop this.

Not everyone likes to run this stupid Content, its not only the Damage it is total boring and some Builds, like Healers and Tanks, doesnt have a Chance there. This is not a personal BiC Content for "elitist" Players, it was an Idea for all Players. But Zos Ends like this, thank you very much.

Zos should offer Traders with Tokens, so every Player can get his own Setups through earning them. Problem solved, there you could get your "vMA" Staff in Nirnhoned too. For the Ego you have the Leaderboards, i dont care about them but if this is important for someone, its fine.

I hope Zos change their Way to the right Direction or they can reduce the Servers to a vMA only Server, for a handfull of Players. Those Players doesnt bring enough Money but they worked hard for the actual Situation with their "Ideas".

I gotta disgree with your assessment that the best gear should always be obtainable by crafting. If that is always true then everyone would have the same cookie cutter builds and gear. Random or difficult to find gear should always offer a slightly better option for some classes and builds on some pieces (not all).

Personally, I like the direction that ZoS has of making the best 5 Piece set typically a craftable set (Along with being able fit it in with weapons/shield/ or armor types of varying types while offering the best rings, helms/shoulders (depending on build), and weapons through either PvP or PvE. Currently the Maelstrom weapons can be best in slot for pretty much every weapon except staves. I have ever Malestrom Staff in every trait right now yet I use neither one in either PvE or PvP and that to me is a problem (and the point of this thread).

Ezareth wrote: »

Murmeltier wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I truly hope nirnhoned remains "crafting-exclusive".

I don't think anyone is asking that sets start randomly dropping with nirn trait. Ez is just arguing about Maelstrom weapons.

When the best rewards hidden behind the hardest solo content and some pretty bad RNG, are inferior to what any crafter can make in 2 mins then we have a problem.

It's not like there'll be thousands of players with these Maelstrom staves. It's highly unlikely that anything more than a small percentage of the players will even get to own one.

I am sure that the Devs never planned to make better Gear, obtainable only through hard Content, then crafting Gear. If they follow this Way they destroy the Motivation for the Crafting System. Sanctum, vDSA and vMA offers the Option to get slightly better Equip but if they offer perfect Weapons with perfect Traits, every Player will be forced to make this Content.

Zos moves really in the wrong Direction, one off the facinating Things in Teso is the Crafting System, nothing should offer you better Equip. Equal, yes but not better. We have really a Problem if a Player only needs to run some Hours through a Content, to get the best Weapons. Crafters worked for Months and invested a lot of Money, to get the Option to craft high End Equip.

And stop writing such elitist Nonsense, vMA is a hard but a really stupid Content. You have to reduce your Build to several Shield or Selfheals and some Dps, thats all.

Such Builds doesnt make more Damage then pure PvE Builds outside from vMA, or use more Skills. You learn the Position from the Enemys and do always the same, like in vDSA before. The only hard Thing in vMA is the Damage you get, not the Tactic or Skill you need.

But it feels better if someone can say: " I solved the vMA with the highest Numbers, so i am the best Player of Class XY". Dream on, you are only the "Hero" of vMA, that doesnt makes you to the best Player of your Class. Why you should get BiC Equip?

And the only Reason why vMA is full of Damage is not the Devy wants to offer you skilled Content, they only make it so hard because they have to bind the Players to the Game, so they dont leave. But it is only the incoming Damage, not the Tactic there. So if you mean that you have to get some BiC Equip there, stop this.

Not everyone likes to run this stupid Content, its not only the Damage it is total boring and some Builds, like Healers and Tanks, doesnt have a Chance there. This is not a personal BiC Content for "elitist" Players, it was an Idea for all Players. But Zos Ends like this, thank you very much.

Zos should offer Traders with Tokens, so every Player can get his own Setups through earning them. Problem solved, there you could get your "vMA" Staff in Nirnhoned too. For the Ego you have the Leaderboards, i dont care about them but if this is important for someone, its fine.

I hope Zos change their Way to the right Direction or they can reduce the Servers to a vMA only Server, for a handfull of Players. Those Players doesnt bring enough Money but they worked hard for the actual Situation with their "Ideas".

I gotta disgree with your assessment that the best gear should always be obtainable by crafting. If that is always true then everyone would have the same cookie cutter builds and gear. Random or difficult to find gear should always offer a slightly better option for some classes and builds on some pieces (not all).

Personally, I like the direction that ZoS has of making the best 5 Piece set typically a craftable set (Along with being able fit it in with weapons/shield/ or armor types of varying types while offering the best rings, helms/shoulders (depending on build), and weapons through either PvP or PvE. Currently the Maelstrom weapons can be best in slot for pretty much every weapon except staves. I have ever Malestrom Staff in every trait right now yet I use neither one in either PvE or PvP and that to me is a problem (and the point of this thread).

Disagree about crafting. They make multiple options available for different niches. Crafting one of those does not make it cookie cutter.

On a side note, I spent time in VMA only for the weapons. Once I got what I wanted, I never ran it again. It is not fun content for me at least.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I truly hope nirnhoned remains "crafting-exclusive".

I don't think anyone is asking that sets start randomly dropping with nirn trait. Ez is just arguing about Maelstrom weapons.

When the best rewards hidden behind the hardest solo content and some pretty bad RNG, are inferior to what any crafter can make in 2 mins then we have a problem.

It's not like there'll be thousands of players with these Maelstrom staves. It's highly unlikely that anything more than a small percentage of the players will even get to own one.

very true specially since, well lets face it I not gonna do maelstrom because I get too bored of this game to learn a challenge without a group of friends to socialize with while doing so. its one thing to beat your head against wall learning a trial, its quite another to be doing it solo.

Ezareth wrote: »

I would just like to point out that Maelstrom Destro Staves in their current form, even without the recent 30% buff fall behind a crafted Nirnhoned Destro Staff.

You can use another piece of a build that will give you a 129 spell damage bonus (Like 5 Piece Julianos with Nirn Destro Staff, 3 Piece Elemental Succession or Overwhelming Surge, 3 Piece willpower for example).

The extra 60 Spell damage doesn't even provide more bonus damage than a basic fire enchant on a staff does.

Then it comes down to the fact that a legendary Nirnhoned Staff provides both 4% more Spell penetration *and* 18% spell resistance to your char than a Sharpened Maelstrom staff.

Unless you make destro staves drop in Nirnhoned then the Maelstrom staves become useless. No one uses wall of Elementals and it is useless in any sort of DPS rotation.

Lastly the 189 spell damage should actually be 193 spell damage for a legendary enchant if it follows the same example as a V16 spell damage set bonus on Willpower. 189 spell damage is the bonus you get with at purple V16 Willpower.

I completely disagree with many of these claims. I am not opposed to a nirnhoned version, however WoE fits seamlessly into many builds, and is useful for multiple classes. It is a substantial increase in damage for some builds. It may be more effective for some to use a nirn version, but not all.

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I would just like to point out that Maelstrom Destro Staves in their current form, even without the recent 30% buff fall behind a crafted Nirnhoned Destro Staff.

You can use another piece of a build that will give you a 129 spell damage bonus (Like 5 Piece Julianos with Nirn Destro Staff, 3 Piece Elemental Succession or Overwhelming Surge, 3 Piece willpower for example).

The extra 60 Spell damage doesn't even provide more bonus damage than a basic fire enchant on a staff does.

Then it comes down to the fact that a legendary Nirnhoned Staff provides both 4% more Spell penetration *and* 18% spell resistance to your char than a Sharpened Maelstrom staff.

Unless you make destro staves drop in Nirnhoned then the Maelstrom staves become useless. No one uses wall of Elementals and it is useless in any sort of DPS rotation.

Lastly the 189 spell damage should actually be 193 spell damage for a legendary enchant if it follows the same example as a V16 spell damage set bonus on Willpower. 189 spell damage is the bonus you get with at purple V16 Willpower.

As a counter to your point - if you run a 5 piece (julianos), a 2 piece (Kena) and a 3 piece (willpower) then you have one slot left. I would take that 189 spell damage and sharpened over no bonus and nirnhoned

With that set up I'd take dual swords, 1 Nirn, 1 Precise. Over any DPS weapons, currently in game.