Maelstrom Destro Staves a DPS downgrade without a Nirnhoned Option

KenaPKK

I don't understand this either... Make all the traits present in BiS end game content. Period.

Maulkin

Teargrants wrote: »

@Ezareth, I don't think you understand properly the imbalance of what you're asking for. People already melt in wall of elements, imagine how OP it would be to have a nirn'd staff w/ 189 spell dmg that buffs the OP wall of elements. Madness!

In fact, I move that ZOS should remove sharpened staffs from the loot table, to help keep Maelstrom wall of elements from upending all the balance changes since 1.6.

You're such a troll

code65536

Dracane wrote: »

If it was enchanteable, okay. But it's not, this staff is useless for myself.

I'd imagine the Maelstrom weapons in general would be more useful if the "when equipped" bonus was applied as a 1-item set bonus instead of as an enchantment. Then we could at least change the active effect enchantment if it's something that people feel is useless.

Maulkin

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth : my point is still valid, but yes, I admit I had missed your point, which I understand better now. I have no real opinion on how well balanced the maelstrom weapons are - I'm not that much of a theorycrafter - but if they have to tweak something, they should tweak the enchantment directly and not let these weapons drop in nirnhoned.

As to rewards being "worth it"... well... one item will be worth to some player and nothing to the next... but yes, I would not like to see an itemization fiasco like the trial drops either. So I have to agree with you.

.

And what would be the difference? Exactly same outcome as dropping in nirn

Ezareth

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth : my point is still valid, but yes, I admit I had missed your point, which I understand better now. I have no real opinion on how well balanced the maelstrom weapons are - I'm not that much of a theorycrafter - but if they have to tweak something, they should tweak the enchantment directly and not let these weapons drop in nirnhoned.

As to rewards being "worth it"... well... one item will be worth to some player and nothing to the next... but yes, I would not like to see an itemization fiasco like the trial drops either. So I have to agree with you.

.

And what would be the difference? Exactly same outcome as dropping in nirn

For the Immersions....

Makkir

I would even be okay with this lacking Nirnhoned if the G.D. skill was something other than wall of elements. WTF uses that anyway....

kuscoe

KenaPKK wrote: »

I don't understand this either... Make all the traits preset in BiS end game content. Period.

This.

anitajoneb17_ESO

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth : my point is still valid, but yes, I admit I had missed your point, which I understand better now. I have no real opinion on how well balanced the maelstrom weapons are - I'm not that much of a theorycrafter - but if they have to tweak something, they should tweak the enchantment directly and not let these weapons drop in nirnhoned.

As to rewards being "worth it"... well... one item will be worth to some player and nothing to the next... but yes, I would not like to see an itemization fiasco like the trial drops either. So I have to agree with you.

.

And what would be the difference? Exactly same outcome as dropping in nirn

Nirnhoned = crafters' exclusivity. That's important imho.

PBpsy

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth : my point is still valid, but yes, I admit I had missed your point, which I understand better now. I have no real opinion on how well balanced the maelstrom weapons are - I'm not that much of a theorycrafter - but if they have to tweak something, they should tweak the enchantment directly and not let these weapons drop in nirnhoned.

As to rewards being "worth it"... well... one item will be worth to some player and nothing to the next... but yes, I would not like to see an itemization fiasco like the trial drops either. So I have to agree with you.

.

And what would be the difference? Exactly same outcome as dropping in nirn

Nirnhoned = crafters' exclusivity. That's important imho.

Crafter exclusivity would be provided by a system where stuff like master weapons comes from a combination of the rng drop system and the actual crafting system. A crappy rng loot system is just a crappy rng loot system not "crafters' exclusivity".

If Master weapons and most dungeon sets would work more like the new motifs, where you are slowly gathering info and special mats to craft them, then that would be "crafters' exclusivity".

anitajoneb17_ESO

PBpsy wrote: »

Crafter exclusivity would be provided by a system where stuff like master weapons comes from a combination of the rng drop system and the actual crafting system. A crappy rng loot system is just a crappy rng loot system not "crafters' exclusivity".

If Master weapons and most dungeon sets would work more like the new motifs, where you are slowly gathering info and special mats to craft them, then that would be "crafters' exclusivity".

Don't see what any of this has to do with nirnhoned.

Instant

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth : my point is still valid, but yes, I admit I had missed your point, which I understand better now. I have no real opinion on how well balanced the maelstrom weapons are - I'm not that much of a theorycrafter - but if they have to tweak something, they should tweak the enchantment directly and not let these weapons drop in nirnhoned.

As to rewards being "worth it"... well... one item will be worth to some player and nothing to the next... but yes, I would not like to see an itemization fiasco like the trial drops either. So I have to agree with you.

.

And what would be the difference? Exactly same outcome as dropping in nirn

Nirnhoned = crafters' exclusivity. That's important imho.

I agree with you. Makes sense to add new weapons to the game when crafted will always be better.

eliisra

Instant wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth : my point is still valid, but yes, I admit I had missed your point, which I understand better now. I have no real opinion on how well balanced the maelstrom weapons are - I'm not that much of a theorycrafter - but if they have to tweak something, they should tweak the enchantment directly and not let these weapons drop in nirnhoned.

As to rewards being "worth it"... well... one item will be worth to some player and nothing to the next... but yes, I would not like to see an itemization fiasco like the trial drops either. So I have to agree with you.

.

And what would be the difference? Exactly same outcome as dropping in nirn

Nirnhoned = crafters' exclusivity. That's important imho.

I agree with you. Makes sense to add new weapons to the game when crafted will always be better.

Yeah, but ZOS could have made the destro staff worth using/farming for, without involving nirnhoned. Maybe that's what he's trying to say?

Think we can all agree that Maelstrom Arena itemization needs some alarming adjustment before patch, especially the staffs and the shield. Otherwise tanks and magicka users have no reason to run vMA, more than a few times for fun and immersion lol.

I very much doubt they'll change any of it though. ZOS is famous for bad itemization. Will make the same mistakes as with IC, where the city's exclusive sets for magicka users and tanks, wasn't worth the Tel Var stones

Ezareth

eliisra wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth : my point is still valid, but yes, I admit I had missed your point, which I understand better now. I have no real opinion on how well balanced the maelstrom weapons are - I'm not that much of a theorycrafter - but if they have to tweak something, they should tweak the enchantment directly and not let these weapons drop in nirnhoned.

As to rewards being "worth it"... well... one item will be worth to some player and nothing to the next... but yes, I would not like to see an itemization fiasco like the trial drops either. So I have to agree with you.

.

And what would be the difference? Exactly same outcome as dropping in nirn

Nirnhoned = crafters' exclusivity. That's important imho.

I agree with you. Makes sense to add new weapons to the game when crafted will always be better.

Yeah, but ZOS could have made the destro staff worth using/farming for, without involving nirnhoned. Maybe that's what he's trying to say?

Think we can all agree that Maelstrom Arena itemization needs some alarming adjustment before patch, especially the staffs and the shield. Otherwise tanks and magicka users have no reason to run vMA, more than a few times for fun and immersion lol.

I very much doubt they'll change any of it though. ZOS is famous for bad itemization. Will make the same mistakes as with IC, where the city's exclusive sets for magicka users and tanks, wasn't worth the Tel Var stones

Yeah the way I see it there isn't a single piece of gear in Osrinium that I want on my sorc. Someone else could craft Julianos for me and I have zero interest in acquiring a Nirnhoned staff. If I already weren't subscribed for the next few months I don't think I'd buy Osrinium at this point.

Capped progression and items that are worst than existing items behind a paywall. I literally could not log in for the next 3 months and be exactly the same power I am today, that's pretty ridiculous for an entire new expansion to the game.

Gilliamtherogue

The loss of penetration from Nirn to Sharpened is 4%, which would take 16500 spell resistance to equate to a 1% damage damage loss (660 armor/res = 1% mitigation, therefore 660/.04 - 16500). Now a 189 spell damage for most bread and butter abilities (whip/concealed coeff ~ 1.35091:1 ratio, jabs ~.62:1 overall ratio) equates roughly to a 2-4% damage gain on all abilities, and even more when you amplify that by Major and Minor Sorecery (25% bonus spell damage) as well as any other amps it increases the overall efficiency. The loss of 4% pen is easily made up by the spell damage, not even to mention the staggering bonus damage you get for hitting things inside Wall of Elements, which is one of the best universal DoT's in PvE. In PvP it's not really a deal breaker, but then again, none of the Maelstrom weapons are.

Most min/maxed setups next patch will be running 3 piece willpower, one 5 piece armor set, and a 2 piece undaunted, leaving an open slot and ignoring the previous "129 spell damage" bonus OP mentioned. It's not to say all setups will follow this, but for maximum efficiency they would.

Ezareth

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The loss of penetration from Nirn to Sharpened is 4%, which would take 16500 spell resistance to equate to a 1% damage damage loss (660 armor/res = 1% mitigation, therefore 660/.04 - 16500). Now a 189 spell damage for most bread and butter abilities (whip/concealed coeff ~ 1.35091:1 ratio, jabs ~.62:1 overall ratio) equates roughly to a 2-4% damage gain on all abilities, and even more when you amplify that by Major and Minor Sorecery (25% bonus spell damage) as well as any other amps it increases the overall efficiency. The loss of 4% pen is easily made up by the spell damage, not even to mention the staggering bonus damage you get for hitting things inside Wall of Elements, which is one of the best universal DoT's in PvE. In PvP it's not really a deal breaker, but then again, none of the Maelstrom weapons are.

Most min/maxed setups next patch will be running 3 piece willpower, one 5 piece armor set, and a 2 piece undaunted, leaving an open slot and ignoring the previous "129 spell damage" bonus OP mentioned. It's not to say all setups will follow this, but for maximum efficiency they would.

You're discounting the flame damage enchant and assuming that applying Wall of Elements, best dot or no just isn't very useful in PvE.

714 Flame damage is worth more than 60 spellpower alone. The real issue, other than the staff not being all that good is because it is not nirnhoned it isn't as powerful as a sharpened melee weapon. That 1% overall damage that you make light of is still 1% that Stamina doesn't lose.

Septimus_Magna

Im kinda confused, what is the difference if we compare a crafted nirn staff with enchant to sharpened maelstrom staff?

Im pretty sure the extra 189 spell dmg on the maelstrom staff makes up for the enchant and nirn/sharp difference, or am I wrong?

Joy_Division

You also miss out on increasing your own spell resistance if you take a sharpened staff over a nirnhoned weapon

Septimus_Magna

Joy_Division wrote: »

You also miss out on increasing your own spell resistance if you take a sharpened staff over a nirnhoned weapon

Yeah true, but that does not directly affect your dps.

Anhedonie

I hope ZOS will also remove Infused. Getting 200 spell damage instead of 189 is ridiculous.
No man should possess such power.

Gilliamtherogue

Ezareth wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The loss of penetration from Nirn to Sharpened is 4%, which would take 16500 spell resistance to equate to a 1% damage damage loss (660 armor/res = 1% mitigation, therefore 660/.04 - 16500). Now a 189 spell damage for most bread and butter abilities (whip/concealed coeff ~ 1.35091:1 ratio, jabs ~.62:1 overall ratio) equates roughly to a 2-4% damage gain on all abilities, and even more when you amplify that by Major and Minor Sorecery (25% bonus spell damage) as well as any other amps it increases the overall efficiency. The loss of 4% pen is easily made up by the spell damage, not even to mention the staggering bonus damage you get for hitting things inside Wall of Elements, which is one of the best universal DoT's in PvE. In PvP it's not really a deal breaker, but then again, none of the Maelstrom weapons are.

Most min/maxed setups next patch will be running 3 piece willpower, one 5 piece armor set, and a 2 piece undaunted, leaving an open slot and ignoring the previous "129 spell damage" bonus OP mentioned. It's not to say all setups will follow this, but for maximum efficiency they would.

You're discounting the flame damage enchant and assuming that applying Wall of Elements, best dot or no just isn't very useful in PvE.

714 Flame damage is worth more than 60 spellpower alone. The real issue, other than the staff not being all that good is because it is not nirnhoned it isn't as powerful as a sharpened melee weapon. That 1% overall damage that you make light of is still 1% that Stamina doesn't lose.

You mean that 1% we don't even have access to at all? Nirnhoned has a 4% advantaged over sharpened, while stamina is stuck without anything stronger. You think since we don't have an equivalent in strength it discredits a loss? Oh man, you just won the special award with that statement.

Also all of the top DK's/Sorcs are using it in the #1 spots in NA and pulling numbers that'd break the known DPS values seen before. 714 flame damage on a 6 second ICD is 119 DPS, compared to an addtional 1300 on LA's, so a direct 1300 dps value. I honestly suggest you pick it up and see the values before you keep bashing WoE, I know a lot of the good players I discussed it with were extremely resistant to trying it but now are glad I brought it up.

Wollust

I think the staff is still gonna be good on a magicka DK.

5 scathing
3 willpower
2 kena
1 maelstrom staff

As they changed molten armaments it might be even worth it to slot wall of elements into the DPS rotation.
Means that would be a bit of a buff for the weaving plus 190 spelldamage. And you lose the flame enchant and 6% penetration. But I guess that's stuff to test out as soon as people have the weapons.

Joy_Division

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The loss of penetration from Nirn to Sharpened is 4%, which would take 16500 spell resistance to equate to a 1% damage damage loss (660 armor/res = 1% mitigation, therefore 660/.04 - 16500). Now a 189 spell damage for most bread and butter abilities (whip/concealed coeff ~ 1.35091:1 ratio, jabs ~.62:1 overall ratio) equates roughly to a 2-4% damage gain on all abilities, and even more when you amplify that by Major and Minor Sorecery (25% bonus spell damage) as well as any other amps it increases the overall efficiency. The loss of 4% pen is easily made up by the spell damage, not even to mention the staggering bonus damage you get for hitting things inside Wall of Elements, which is one of the best universal DoT's in PvE. In PvP it's not really a deal breaker, but then again, none of the Maelstrom weapons are.

Most min/maxed setups next patch will be running 3 piece willpower, one 5 piece armor set, and a 2 piece undaunted, leaving an open slot and ignoring the previous "129 spell damage" bonus OP mentioned. It's not to say all setups will follow this, but for maximum efficiency they would.

You're discounting the flame damage enchant and assuming that applying Wall of Elements, best dot or no just isn't very useful in PvE.

714 Flame damage is worth more than 60 spellpower alone. The real issue, other than the staff not being all that good is because it is not nirnhoned it isn't as powerful as a sharpened melee weapon. That 1% overall damage that you make light of is still 1% that Stamina doesn't lose.

You mean that 1% we don't even have access to at all? Nirnhoned has a 4% advantaged over sharpened, while stamina is stuck without anything stronger. You think since we don't have an equivalent in strength it discredits a loss? Oh man, you just won the special award with that statement.

Also all of the top DK's/Sorcs are using it in the #1 spots in NA and pulling numbers that'd break the known DPS values seen before. 714 flame damage on a 6 second ICD is 119 DPS, compared to an addtional 1300 on LA's, so a direct 1300 dps value. I honestly suggest you pick it up and see the values before you keep bashing WoE, I know a lot of the good players I discussed it with were extremely resistant to trying it but now are glad I brought it up.

Well, I'm glad some people are getting use out of it. I noticed you are all happy when weapons work well for PvE but feel compelled to ask ZoS to reconsider when you think they don't.

kuscoe

Joy_Division wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

The loss of penetration from Nirn to Sharpened is 4%, which would take 16500 spell resistance to equate to a 1% damage damage loss (660 armor/res = 1% mitigation, therefore 660/.04 - 16500). Now a 189 spell damage for most bread and butter abilities (whip/concealed coeff ~ 1.35091:1 ratio, jabs ~.62:1 overall ratio) equates roughly to a 2-4% damage gain on all abilities, and even more when you amplify that by Major and Minor Sorecery (25% bonus spell damage) as well as any other amps it increases the overall efficiency. The loss of 4% pen is easily made up by the spell damage, not even to mention the staggering bonus damage you get for hitting things inside Wall of Elements, which is one of the best universal DoT's in PvE. In PvP it's not really a deal breaker, but then again, none of the Maelstrom weapons are.

Most min/maxed setups next patch will be running 3 piece willpower, one 5 piece armor set, and a 2 piece undaunted, leaving an open slot and ignoring the previous "129 spell damage" bonus OP mentioned. It's not to say all setups will follow this, but for maximum efficiency they would.

You're discounting the flame damage enchant and assuming that applying Wall of Elements, best dot or no just isn't very useful in PvE.

714 Flame damage is worth more than 60 spellpower alone. The real issue, other than the staff not being all that good is because it is not nirnhoned it isn't as powerful as a sharpened melee weapon. That 1% overall damage that you make light of is still 1% that Stamina doesn't lose.

You mean that 1% we don't even have access to at all? Nirnhoned has a 4% advantaged over sharpened, while stamina is stuck without anything stronger. You think since we don't have an equivalent in strength it discredits a loss? Oh man, you just won the special award with that statement.

Also all of the top DK's/Sorcs are using it in the #1 spots in NA and pulling numbers that'd break the known DPS values seen before. 714 flame damage on a 6 second ICD is 119 DPS, compared to an addtional 1300 on LA's, so a direct 1300 dps value. I honestly suggest you pick it up and see the values before you keep bashing WoE, I know a lot of the good players I discussed it with were extremely resistant to trying it but now are glad I brought it up.

Well, I'm glad some people are getting use out of it. I noticed you are all happy when weapons work well for PvE but feel compelled to ask ZoS to reconsider when you think they don't.

Not everything is for pvp, not all skills have a place in pvp and vice versa been using WoE since patch and I love it that said though WoE I think would be really good in sewers if I pvp'd on my dk I for sure would use it

kuscoe

Anhedonie wrote: »

I hope ZOS will also remove Infused. Getting 200 spell damage instead of 189 is ridiculous.
No man should possess such power.

XD Bruh its not 200 its 223

Ezareth

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

You mean that 1% we don't even have access to at all? Nirnhoned has a 4% advantaged over sharpened, while stamina is stuck without anything stronger. You think since we don't have an equivalent in strength it discredits a loss? Oh man, you just won the special award with that statement.

Also all of the top DK's/Sorcs are using it in the #1 spots in NA and pulling numbers that'd break the known DPS values seen before. 714 flame damage on a 6 second ICD is 119 DPS, compared to an addtional 1300 on LA's, so a direct 1300 dps value. I honestly suggest you pick it up and see the values before you keep bashing WoE, I know a lot of the good players I discussed it with were extremely resistant to trying it but now are glad I brought it up.

Let me spell it out for you since you continue to miss the obvious Captain. Right now a Nirnhoned crafted staff is best in slot DPS in both PvP and PvE. Right now Stamina BiS trait is Sharpened or Precise. Let's just say I buy into your argument that the Maelstrom Staff is *marginally* better in some situations in PVE. Great. (I'm pretty sure on a recent test I did the ICD on weapon enchant procs was less than 6 seconds but I'll take your word for it).

Every stamina user running a 2-hander that gets a maelstrom sharpened 2-hand sword and loses nothing on traits while they pick up the bonus weapon damage. The magicka users lose 1% of the total DPS while picking up the bonus spell power. This is in a game that already favors Stamina over magicka too much. If pointing that out wins me an award, great!

I really don't see what about this point there really is to argue. It's just seems lame to me that I'll be farming this content on my Magicka Sorc so I can get gear for my Stamina Nightblade.

Personofsecrets

Perhaps there is something to be said for magic users having a special trait just for them while melee are stuck with the sharpened trait, but that could very well be for game balancing reasons and not something that has occurred out of the blue.

Ezareth

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Perhaps there is something to be said for magic users having a special trait just for them while melee are stuck with the sharpened trait, but that could very well be for game balancing reasons and not something that has occurred out of the blue.

Keep in mind that sharpened for Melee classes is actually not terrible as every ultimate is actually magicka based with the exception of Dragon Leap and benefits from having the magicka penetration as well. On the flip side a magicka sorc receives zero benefit from the psysical penetration benefit of sharpened.

Nirnhoned weapons are the one statistical benefit that Magick users have over Stamina users. The Stamina bias in the CP system, Armor design, and weapon abilities, passives, and set bonuses is very strong.

giinoz2011rwb17_ESO

Hi all, please don't burn me for this.

I have read somewhere that ZOS changed the Nirn items so that it's not beneficial to have a full set of Nirn armor anymore.
That it's only effective for up to two nirn armor items is this correct?

Thanks in advance.


One problem with the internet is so much misinformation and crap so I turn to my peers for their wisdom and assistance.

Ezareth

giinoz2011rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Hi all, please don't burn me for this.

I have read somewhere that ZOS changed the Nirn items so that it's not beneficial to have a full set of Nirn armor anymore.
That it's only effective for up to two nirn armor items is this correct?

Thanks in advance.


One problem with the internet is so much misinformation and crap so I turn to my peers for their wisdom and assistance.

Nirnhoned Armor used to have a multiplicative effect with your entire spell resistance which was broken. It made since to equip multiple pieces in order to achieve the hard cap of resistance. Now however it was changed to basically be Reinforced with a 50% higher value but for Spell Resistance alone instead of Armor + Spell Resistance. It really doesn't make sense to craft at all, even on one piece since it is at Legendary Rank just +24% Spell Resistance on that item piece alone.

Gilliamtherogue

Ezareth wrote: »

This is in a game that already favors Stamina over magicka too much.

This... is a joke, right? Are you speaking PvP, PvE, or overall? Last I checked, caster builds outshined stamina builds in the following;
Defensive capabilities (spammable damage shields that nullify almost all dangers, safety with range)
Self sustain of resources (Ele drain, force siphon; both give magicka back with 0 outside interaction, you're literally awarded free resources for damaging a target)
Sustained DPS in PvE and PvP (a flowing system that doesn't rely on cheesy damage sources like sneak attacks or proc based abilities such as camo hunter)
Offense for defense (your healing/shield abilities directly scale with offensive stats, meaning you don't need to sacrifice anything to improve the strength of shields)
Being put on the defensive doesn't drain your main resource, as you don't lose magicka from blocking or dodge rolling.
Overall higher penetration (Nirnhoned 4% bonus, light armor passive, destruction staff passive)

Had you stated this before no stam regen while blocking or infinite dodge roll, as well as stacking sharpened/piercing strikes, and stackable camo hunter, I *might* have agreed (although in pve we were still being out shined by caster specs in trials). But now? Pff, please. Stamina builds are a dying breed, just look at vMaelstrom boards. And in PvP all that's left is FoTM NB builds that pour everything into sneak attacks and scurry around like a headless chicken when they fail to one shot you with double camo procs from sneak.