ZOS_Finn wrote: »

EgoRush wrote: »

Oh and some feedback based on the gear. Why is everything except rehashed old gear (Worm Cult/Hircine's Veneer/Ebon) BOP once again? Technically we still have absolutely zero new BOE sets from the PvE content. Can't this be more like vDSA/Sanctum that dropped interesting BOE sets that were valid for end game? I want an equivalent to Healer/Footman/Dreugh King.

That would massively enhance the appeal to completing this new content. Especially if only the best pieces dropped in Veteran.

Only the four new Trial pieces are Bind on Pickup. All of the other PvE sets within the DLC (Crafted and Quest/World Boss Drops) are Bind on Equip.

Aha, so that's 8 new BOE sets (excluding crafted and old sets like Worm Cult). But all trial sets will be BOP. I didn't realise, apologies. That's better than all previous updates.

EgoRush wrote: »

agro2014 wrote: »

ZOS_Finn wrote: »

Woeler wrote: »

Another remark from me on the loot of the last boss in normal mode.

I remember being said that the last boss on normal DOES drop the new sets, i.e. lunar bastion, moondancer etc.

We completed normal and all got ebon/savior/wormcult loot from the last boss. A bug? A misunderstanding? An unfortunate series of events? A coincidence? Magic?

Rakkhat, the Fang of Lorkhaj in Normal difficulty can drop any piece of loot that comes from the trial. This includes the brand new sets as well as the other sets and Jewelry.

New sets from last boss in Normal drops up to VR15 or VR16?

V16, but will be blue instead of purple as I understand it.

OK so the new sets drops in normal as well - at a reduced rate? Getting a blue vr16 item is great as upgrading it to purple costs just about nothing.

Alcast wrote: »

Both, boss nr 1 and boss nr 2 need a buff.

Boss nr 1 hits like a noodle and basically only the 30% burnphase is difficult.
Boss nr 2 is good difficulty but if we had our chars+nice ping that dude would be dead already.

so how to improve difficulty? And those difficulty improvements are not over the top, they would make the fights a lot more interesting.

Boss nr 1.
Decrease time to get behind pillars that kills everybody who is not behind a pillar. Now you basically have time to run over the whole room to get behind a pillar, so you need no reaction time or good positioning of the boss at all.

If you want us to have more fun on this boss give us more tigers, so we actually would need a 2nd tank on this boss because of more tigers spawning which would make the fight longer, and automatically more difficult because we can dps the boss less when we have to kill the tigers.

Atm from 30% to 0 we can just ignore the tigers and execute the boss, up the HP of the boss by 20-30% so we actually have to kill the tigers that spawn afterwards, atm we just ignore those.

Boss nr 2.
The mechanics on this boss are godlike, this is by far the most interesting fight so far in ESO, colorchanges are a real mindf***.

The only thing to improve here is that you should give the bosses like 30% more HP and limit addsspawn to 4 per side. Why? This is kind of an DPS race and the longer the fight lasts the more adds spawn. So the problem is...if you have super fast dps this bossfight will not get hard because you can nuke down the bosses pretty fast which means you have to deal with a lot less adds than ppl with low dps.

So up the HP of the bosses by 30% and limit the max spawnable adds per side to 4. 4 Adds on each side is a good number and makes the fight really interesting. Everything past 4 adds per side is Armageddon.

@Seiffer
Hand shout out to the devs, this trial is A-W-E-S-O-M-O. Just up the difficulty a bit more
Cant give feedback to other bosses as we have a really hard time with templates+250 ping to get past the 2nd boss. Tho if we had our real chars that boss would prolly be dead already. So buff bosses!

I think Alcast's take on the second boss is insightful. I don't think the sort of mechanic DPS race where high DPS = easy, low DPS = impossible is compelling. His suggestion in essence makes it more difficult for groups with high DPS while removing the "you lose" mechanic for groups with lower DPS. If I understand correctly.

Hjelmerina wrote: »

I think it's unfair that the normal mode and veteran mode drops the exact same loot, making people just go for the easy route to farm the normal one for gear since especially good people can just stomp through it in minutes basically. Vet Maw of Lorkhaj will not feel as much rewarding like this when you know you can get the exact same loot from normal mode a lot easier. Only reward we get from the Veteran mode is a costume... so once you get it, there's not really a reason to run it for other reason than leaderboards run.

This could get balanced so EASILY: Make the normal mode drop the gear up to your level but ONLY up to VR15 and it would be blue. That would be rewarding enough for more casual players only doing normal mode. And for veteran mode make it scale up to VR16 purple. Then people would really feel like there's a reason to farm the veteran mode! (So just like vDSA and DSA when the level cap was VR14)

Hjelmerina wrote: »

This could get balanced so EASILY: Make the normal mode drop the gear up to your level but ONLY up to VR15 and it would be blue. That would be rewarding enough for more casual players only doing normal mode.

No.
I don't mind some content being gated behind "excellency" but not gear. If you need more incentive than fun to run a trial several times then I don't know what to tell you anymore.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

This could get balanced so EASILY: Make the normal mode drop the gear up to your level but ONLY up to VR15 and it would be blue. That would be rewarding enough for more casual players only doing normal mode.

No.
I don't mind some content being gated behind "excellency" but not gear. If you need more incentive than fun to run a trial several times then I don't know what to tell you anymore.

The gear isn't locked from you, as I never stated that. It would only reflect the difficulty you're doing it on. Why did vDSA drop only VR14 purple gear and its normal mode only VR13 blue? Since only this trial has both modes like DSA, it should go the same way.

Hjelmerina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

This could get balanced so EASILY: Make the normal mode drop the gear up to your level but ONLY up to VR15 and it would be blue. That would be rewarding enough for more casual players only doing normal mode.

No.
I don't mind some content being gated behind "excellency" but not gear. If you need more incentive than fun to run a trial several times then I don't know what to tell you anymore.

The gear isn't locked from you, as I never stated that. It would only reflect the difficulty you're doing it on. Why did vDSA drop only VR14 purple gear and its normal mode only VR13 blue? Since only this trial has both modes like DSA, it should go the same way.

The level of difficulty of VDSA never was as high, even at the beginning, as MoL is intended to be (for your sake). That's the difference. VDSA was always doable by a large portion of players (even if that required quite a bit of work for some of us, we all more or less managed it somehow). vMoL isn't meant to be beaten by the majority, not before a long time.
And by gear, I mean appropriate level gear, that means VR16. It's bad enough that we don't get Maelstroem weapons on MSA.
As Woeler stated, if they start dropping VR15 set pieces in normal MoL instead of VR16 I'll cry for nerfs and I won't be the only one.
We don't mind you having your thing, but as long as you don't take anything away from us.
Don't be scared, having VR16 stuff won't make us better than you anytime soon.

.

Woeler wrote: »

Just to make things clear here, I'm NOT in any way defending your views. I'm just stating what will happen, I still think that the fact that it will happen is silly.

OK, no problem with that ;-)

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

This could get balanced so EASILY: Make the normal mode drop the gear up to your level but ONLY up to VR15 and it would be blue. That would be rewarding enough for more casual players only doing normal mode.

No.
I don't mind some content being gated behind "excellency" but not gear. If you need more incentive than fun to run a trial several times then I don't know what to tell you anymore.

The gear isn't locked from you, as I never stated that. It would only reflect the difficulty you're doing it on. Why did vDSA drop only VR14 purple gear and its normal mode only VR13 blue? Since only this trial has both modes like DSA, it should go the same way.

The level of difficulty of VDSA never was as difficult, even at the beginning, as MoL is intended to be. That's the difference.
And by gear, I mean appropriate level gear, that means VR16. It's bad enough that we don't get Maelstroem weapons on MSA.
As Woeler stated, if they start dropping VR15 set pieces in normal MoL instead of VR16 I'll cry for nerfs and I won't be the only one.
We don't mind you having your thing, but as long as you don't take anything away from us.
Don't be scared, having VR16 stuff won't make us better than you anytime soon.

.

And why do you need the best equip?

best equip-->best DPS/HPS-->fastest bosskills/dungeon runs/trial runs etc -->Nr.1 in trials rankings

Do you want this?
If yes, you should be able to beat the conten without this gear
If no, why do you worry about this?

I don't want to go too far into this "eternal" discussion.
But to make it quick :
Result = skill + gear
You already have the best results, why do you need better gear ? (for competition, I guess, but we're not your competitors anyway).
Less naturally talented or less trained people (less playtime, slower reaction, whatever the reason) who cannot improve skills because they've reached their personal max skill level for whatever reason can improve their results via gear. This helps narrowing the gap (and, as a consequence, avoid stuff being nerfed in the long term).
Subsequent question would be : what does it take away from you that we get the gear ? and are your results not enough to make you feel "special and rewarded", does it have to be "exclusive", too? I'm asking genuinely, because that's something I'll never understand.

EDIT : don't forget that things will not be equal between normal and vet. Vet will get one piece of loot / boss, we'll get only one piece on the end boss. It will not be handed to us for free, we'll have to grind it hard.
.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

This could get balanced so EASILY: Make the normal mode drop the gear up to your level but ONLY up to VR15 and it would be blue. That would be rewarding enough for more casual players only doing normal mode.

No.
I don't mind some content being gated behind "excellency" but not gear. If you need more incentive than fun to run a trial several times then I don't know what to tell you anymore.

The gear isn't locked from you, as I never stated that. It would only reflect the difficulty you're doing it on. Why did vDSA drop only VR14 purple gear and its normal mode only VR13 blue? Since only this trial has both modes like DSA, it should go the same way.

The level of difficulty of VDSA never was as high, even at the beginning, as MoL is intended to be (for your sake). That's the difference. VDSA was always doable by a large portion of players (even if that required quite a bit of work for some of us, we all more or less managed it somehow). vMoL isn't meant to be beaten by the majority, not before a long time.
And by gear, I mean appropriate level gear, that means VR16. It's bad enough that we don't get Maelstroem weapons on MSA.
As Woeler stated, if they start dropping VR15 set pieces in normal MoL instead of VR16 I'll cry for nerfs and I won't be the only one.
We don't mind you having your thing, but as long as you don't take anything away from us.
Don't be scared, having VR16 stuff won't make us better than you anytime soon.

.

Shouldn't you be off begging for nerfs somewhere or is QQing about how you would never get gear if it only dropped at v16 in vet mode good enough? Vet mode needs to drop at least something unique in the way of boe gear so that we have a way to buy all those potions we are using on cooldown to complete the trial. Letting us go with no real source of income will not be good for the games economy as hardcore players will just stop wasting money on potions. Where as if you give us unique boe sets compared to normal mode the hardcore players can farm those sets and sell them to the people who aren't able to complete vet and then maybe using that upgraded gead they will eventually be able to complete vet.

Also if players aren't getting anything special from vet then there will be no reason to farm it and go through all that struggle so vet will just fall by the wayside just like maelstrom did.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Hjelmerina wrote: »

This could get balanced so EASILY: Make the normal mode drop the gear up to your level but ONLY up to VR15 and it would be blue. That would be rewarding enough for more casual players only doing normal mode.

No.
I don't mind some content being gated behind "excellency" but not gear. If you need more incentive than fun to run a trial several times then I don't know what to tell you anymore.

The gear isn't locked from you, as I never stated that. It would only reflect the difficulty you're doing it on. Why did vDSA drop only VR14 purple gear and its normal mode only VR13 blue? Since only this trial has both modes like DSA, it should go the same way.

The level of difficulty of VDSA never was as difficult, even at the beginning, as MoL is intended to be. That's the difference.
And by gear, I mean appropriate level gear, that means VR16. It's bad enough that we don't get Maelstroem weapons on MSA.
As Woeler stated, if they start dropping VR15 set pieces in normal MoL instead of VR16 I'll cry for nerfs and I won't be the only one.
We don't mind you having your thing, but as long as you don't take anything away from us.
Don't be scared, having VR16 stuff won't make us better than you anytime soon.

.

And why do you need the best equip?

best equip-->best DPS/HPS-->fastest bosskills/dungeon runs/trial runs etc -->Nr.1 in trials rankings

Do you want this?
If yes, you should be able to beat the conten without this gear
If no, why do you worry about this?

I don't want to go too far into this "eternal" discussion.
But to make it quick :
Result = skill + gear
You already have the best results, why do you need better gear ? (for competition, I guess, but we're not your competitors anyway).
Less naturally talented or less trained people (less playtime, slower reaction, whatever the reason) who cannot improve skills because they've reached their personal max skill level for whatever reason can improve their results via gear. This helps narrowing the gap (and, as a consequence, avoid stuff being nerfed in the long term).
Subsequent question would be : what does it take away from you that we get the gear ? and are your results not enough to make you feel "special and rewarded", does it have to be "exclusive", too? I'm asking genuinely, because that's something I'll never understand.

EDIT : don't forget that things will not be equal between normal and vet. Vet will get one piece of loot / boss, we'll get only one piece on the end boss. It will not be handed to us for free, we'll have to grind it hard.
.

Alright well, you can soothe your mammaries, I didn't make my original comment to start any big discussion or QQ. Sorry, I didn't know about getting gear only from the last boss in normal which makes it a bit more even I guess. In no way I wanted to exclude anyone, since I didn't think casual players would care this much about getting top notch gear, even if they're not even gonna need that miniscule extra magicka/stamina/whatever they get from VR16 instead of VR15 for completing their content at their level. (I'm a forum noob, sorry!) I just thought of a way making ALL people wanting to do and train vMoL, not just ''us'', instead of you doing it on easy mode all the time.

Destruent wrote: »

The gap will never close, bc every set gives you a percentage increase. So the difference will get bigger as long as you don't improve as a player.
everything else....you want to do the hardest content to get the same as in the "easymode"? rly?

That's not a reason to make the gap even wider.
As to your question : yes, really. What's wrong with that ? This is a GAME, man, forget one second about "deserve" and "merit" and whatever vision of society you might have. People should play for FUN ! And progress is DOOMED to be erased on a regular basis by the game's meta / design in order to narrow the gaps between the various groups / levels of players (look at CP caps, AP requirements, etc... all this which cost you and me tons of effort/time is now meaningless and replaced by other stuff...)

.

A few thoughts now that we've had more time on the PTS.

I am in disagreement about increasing the difficulty of the trial when it comes live. Spending months on end in SO until the Serpent finally died was daunting and honestly a big eye roll. We were all anxious to start farming the gear and seeing the fruits of our labor. It didn't make that big of a difference that it took so long because it took over a year for new content to come out. There was literally nothing else to do except bang out the old trials on repeat. With the hope that another trial will come out in at least half the time.. what's the point of spending 2-3 times longer for a single complete? We think the second boss is monumentally harder than the first, but I can imagine the final boss is even more of a time and coordination sync. Buffing the first boss so it takes even MORE time for us to get to and complete the final boss is a good idea? No thanks.

I think this trial is a thing of beauty. But it is lacking in it's time commitment and some of its trash encounters. Call me old fashioned or just plain tired of the hunt, but running 1 or 2 successful runs a night in the coming months to garner a couple pieces of gear is just depressing. What is considered 'on farm'? Having the time to get 1-2 completes a raid.. or 4-5? Are we good enough to eventually complete the content? You bet we are. And.. I speak for myself.. but man, the sheer time commitment is frustrating. I hear the final boss fight is supposed to last around 15 minutes. Someone thinks that sounds like a blast? I guess it's still a far cry from 4 hour raids in Everquest with final boss encounters that lasted 45 minutes.

The trash in between the bosses seem like a big distraction. Ultimately the beauty, craftsmanship, and players appreciation for cool mechanics, balance, RP, etc fades. I want to focus solely on the bosses that give the loot so we can more quickly gear up and be ready for the next DLC. Right now the trash seems like a mini raid on its own. It's just too much. Leave all the cool trash mechanics, but cut the health in half so we can get to the bosses quicker. Was your intention to slow us down and make us smell the roses? If so you're nailing it on the head and I bow my head in submission. Again, this is not a 'nerf' request based on L2P or because we don't have what it takes. We are still one of the best guilds in the world, but in my opinion the time requirements make me want to stop running the trial.

Maybe it's just because I'm a raid leader that my mind is focused mostly on efficiency and getting to and through objectives quickly. If so, then my opinion is lop sided and I apologize. Maybe I'm an old man who's just tired of the grind. But I personally am looking for a trial that is difficult but CAN eventually be mastered on all levels. That means an eventual 'no death run'. I can see a no death on the first boss with extreme luck via the pad cleanses and/or timing of the pillars. But... the second boss is chalk full of cosmic accidental collision explosions among other disastrous craziness from the adds and the like. I'm not looking for another VMA where you can know every spawn and have every priority down to an art form but you still die to the most random stuff ever.

I'll end by saying I appreciate all you have done for the raiding community. I feel like you have taken in to account a lot of the thoughts and concerns we brought up in our first Council of Raiders meeting. It is obvious that we are on your priority list and for that I say thank you.

Woeler wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

it's too hard to be fun, that's all.

It's too hard for YOU. That is something entirely different. Also, you do not define what "fun" encompasses.

Also not beating ICP and WGT is not because the dungeon is too hard. They were never THAT hard and they have been nerfed twice. Heck even my mainstream/pug guild runs these dailies fine. It IS a lack of skill, and also a lack of the will to try. Yes some content can't be completed the first time you go in within 15 minutes!

Why not just give people /tgm and be done with it then?

What you quote from me is wrong. I said "For them, it's too hard to be fun, that's all". Which is entirely different. To me, it is not too hard. But as a matter of fact, many (not all, sure, but a significant part) people don't even want to try those dungeons again, because (they think) it is too hard for them.
You can judge that however you want, but reward or incentives are NOT going to change that, and people are what they are, not what you would like them to be. What do you want to do against a lack of will to try ? If people think it's too hard for them to be fun, then that's what it is.

.