Stamina Templar Balancing Thread

AfkNinja · February 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Pretty much why we all picked Templar right?

AfkNinja wrote: »

Edit: P.S. They need to add spear weapons to the game.

Yeeeeeees.

PRAISE THE SUN!

Faulgor · February 2016

AfkNinja wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Pretty much why we all picked Templar right?

AfkNinja wrote: »

Edit: P.S. They need to add spear weapons to the game.

Yeeeeeees.

PRAISE THE SUN!

If only we could be so grossly incandescent =/

Zinaroth · February 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

It doesn't look like any stam builds got a boost though. Only positive for Stamplar.

Problem being that they were already the weakest stamina build so they needed some buffs aimed particularly at them. The Major Mending and Minor Protection sure would help, if it didn't require us to stand inside a little circle, which isn't feasible in anything remotely competetive in PvE or PvP. Neither is rebuffing it ever 4-8 seconds.

Bazeric · February 2016

Well originally I wanted to be a fairly tanky Swiss Army knife front line warrior.

*cue dramatic music and narrator*

I wanted to jump in the front lines blinding my enemies with my glory while inspiring my comrades to push forward. I would take a punches while giving a punch, all the while keeping my brothers-and-sisters-in-arms topped off and confident. Then.... Then the plague came and wiped away the soft caps of Tamriel. A tarnish had built on my shiny knight of glory. I struggled for an identity until I had found a path that was a mere shadow of the former glory. I could still take punches... Still top off some comrades.... But my spears had become wet noddles I flopped about unceremoniously. In frustration I sought to strengthen my noodles, and I did, at the expense of being able to keep my allies comfortable. Then.... Then the plague came again and I found that all strength was sapped. I could only stand by as my fellow warriors fell before my feet and I, stuck in a fury of *heal spamming* eventually fell too. Alas heals do nothing to intimidate the enemy. A shadow had consumed my light and in the ever climbing power race, I had fallen ill. Then... Then... I had a fever dream where I watched as a shadowy magic user used the darkness of oblivion and floated across the battlefield like a poisonous gas. The dream lasted what felt like 3 months until I awoke with hatred in my heart. I began to retrain myself. I embraced my red diamond blood and did many many push-ups and many more sit-ups, jogged many miles, and found an old strange hag who gave me deer guts. I returned to the battlefield lusting for the sight of the red of my enemies life force. And many did fall to me... But no longer did I support my fellow banner men... No longer could I blaze the glory of the front line. Now I am a tiring old man who usefulness has wained and withered and the war had finally taken is toll. Now I drift off into another slumber...

This... This is the story of the Templar Warrior.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Jura23 wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

The Stamina Templar - an ideology
For me I have always imagined my Templar as a paladin or crusader, a heavy front line warrior able to stand his ground and smite his enemies with holy light and fire while providing buffs to his fellow team mates.

Btw. this is exactly the idea I had in mind when I selected Templar first time I logged into ESO. Spot on man.

This is what we all had in mind. You were basically choosing to be the Priest or the Crusader. Every single player I've run into who made a Templar at the beginning, this is the model that they had in mind (and ZoS definitely conveyed).

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Its pretty busy here, but I'm on hold right now so I have a moment to comment. Love the post I think it sums up a lot of issues we all have. I think the big issues is that the problems ought to be state. The vision for the class is not being met, that much is clear.

1. No mobility in a game design that grossly rewards having mobility.
2. Terrible mitigation skills that tie into 1, with the added slap on the wrist of slow animation and brief duration.
3. A skill line 'fully dedicated' to healing but not actually providing much apart from one skill, two if you count cleansing ritual. Rune might be a strong third if it wasn't so ground dependent and time sensitive.
4. *** poor CC. You can't really say Templars have cc. There are a few weak snares that are easily surpassed by other classes. The rest of the hard cc are single target and brief duration. It still runs counter to Eclipse. The loss of Blinding Flashes is palpable, and in many ways gutted the class. They really should look at bringing back this skill and replace any floundering morph of something else crappy within the Templar skill line (like Solar Barrage for instance).
5. Eclipse should be iconic, but it is still terrible and also logistically much more difficult to use than Reflective Scales despite having a similar cost. I'd be happy with your suggestions, or anything really that got rid of the CC element. I have no problem with this skill being purged, but it is *** the way this skill works and has always worked.
6. Resource management is really bad in pvp unless you are facerolling the enemy (in which case resource management isn't an issue). In pve its only really useful to keep your team topped off on stamina/health so they can run from one pack of mobs to the other for either farming or trials. Beyond this the Radiant/Repentance morphs really underperform with respect to other classes regeneration, specifically because they fall under Major/Minor buffs. Everything is high cost and low duration for Templars, which means you need to spam more and get less.
7. Most Templar abilities also do not play double/triple/quadruple duty like a lot of other class skills. The whole class falls prey to bad synergy and mostly bad passives.
8. It would be nice if there were a radiant destruction for Stamplars, even if it were semi melee range ability.
9. I would just like to say I would love it if our charge became a Teleport and stomp like the Vosh Raka guys in Wrothgar use. Giving this skill a rewrite might be the way to solve the problems with it, since what people are saying on PTS it still doesn't work. We appreciate the effort guys, but maybe you should take this one back to the drawing board.

I just wanted to add, that I hope you made some of these suggestions on the Official Feedback Thread.

AfkNinja · February 2016

ZOS's response today:

30wphfo.jpg.gif

[img][/img]

BalticBlues · February 2016

Essiaga wrote: »

I think that much is clear. ZOS doesn't play a templar.

There has not been any design put into the Templar class since they took Blinding Flashes away. All that's happened since then is bugs and fixes and alteration to the way things apply. [...] No viable mitigation, dps, regen, resources. The buffed worthless skills to be only slightly less worthless, but not in a way to make them worth

There is no love for the templar class.

So why does ZOS not make a clean cut then:
Remove the unwanted Templar class and offer players a free class change.

So much is evident:
Now that already the majority of PvP consist of Sorcs/NBs, who needs Templars?
Now that all classes can heal as good or even better in PvE, who needs Templars?
Now that all new gameplay is centered around DPS and mobility, who needs Templars?

It is obvious that ZOS is not willing to give the class the required general overhaul.
Instead of prolonging the life of this moribund patient with more and more terrible nerfs,
ZOS, please be honest enough to tell people the sad truth and make a clean cut.

It's better to make a painful break than draw out the agony.

Zinaroth · February 2016

After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.

He told me to tag @ZOS_KNowak in here aswell since he is also part of the class balancing team along with @Wrobel since he is the lead gameplay designer. Thanks again Seiffer and hope you guys give this post a look.

Kas · February 2016

zos will never takes these threads seriously if people write 10 pages and miss that stamplars just got major mending to buff vigor and rally to the extends only dk's used to have until now

that said, you got several valid points. but this patch is a HUGE buff stamplars. no ideal if it's enough but in my opinion it takes them to the level of stam dk's.

Lettigall · February 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Pretty much why we all picked Templar right?

AfkNinja wrote: »

Edit: P.S. They need to add spear weapons to the game.

Yeeeeeees.

More like:

Zinaroth · February 2016

Kas wrote: »

zos will never takes these threads seriously if people write 10 pages and miss that stamplars just got major mending to buff vigor and rally to the extends only dk's used to have until now

that said, you got several valid points. but this patch is a HUGE buff stamplars. no ideal if it's enough but in my opinion it takes them to the level of stam dk's.

Aslong as Major Mending only lasts while standing inside the Rune or for 4 seconds after leaving it is a very minor buff.
Yes Major Mending is huge for Stamplar survivability, but once again it is something we get through clunky and cumbersome gameplay. As you read and aknowledged Stamplars have many other issues; ony of them being that their major defensive ability needs to be spammed every 8 second, which includes weapon swapping every 8 seconds, it shouldn't have to be like that. But yes, I agree, some people are really underplaying the importance of Major Mending, but honestly, it was needed, and honestly, Templars are the self healing class yet Stamina DKs had more self healing than Stamina Templars, that was ridiculous.

Going to reiterate here:
- Puncturing Strikes and its morphs needs a minor damage boost, mainly for PvE
- Burning Light has a hidden cooldown and doesn't proc on shields
- Class ultimates will still not be worth using; except for the situational Nova
- We need better rescource management through passives; as my comparison proves
- Eclipse needs an overhaul; I propose a self buff instead of a targeted one
- Sun Shield should not be affected by Battle Fatigue; it is still too weak in PvP and still gimmicky in PvE
- We have too few stamina morphs to make Stamina Templar choises interesting
- Rune Focus needs to be a true self buff and not a ground targeted effect, mobility is key and being the only class without mobility tools now we don't need to be further encumbered by having to stand still in a specific spot

Faulgor · February 2016

Zinaroth wrote: »

After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.

He told me to tag @ZOS_KNowak in here aswell since he is also part of the class balancing team along with @Wrobel since he is the lead gameplay designer. Thanks again Seiffer and hope you guys give this post a look.

That's great to hear. I'm looking forward to hear their thoughts about our suggestions.
I also don't think the majority of posts regarding Templar issues are just snippy comments. Especially Stamplars don't ask for more than other classes already have, namely CC, slightly better (passive) regeneration tools and active damage buffs.

Kas wrote: »

zos will never takes these threads seriously if people write 10 pages and miss that stamplars just got major mending to buff vigor and rally to the extends only dk's used to have until now

So we still have to rely on non-class heals.

Which wouldn't be such a terrible fate if it didn't shoehorn stamina builds into using 2h or playing PvP to get a viable PvE build.

Mojmir · February 2016

Zinaroth · February 2016

Faulgor wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

After speaking to @ZOS_Seiffer on a Hodor raid stream last night he assured me that developers are reading all feedback made on the PTS forum at the moment. If you really want your point across make sure its thorough, indepth and well argumented, and not just some snippy comment about you wanting a buff or a nerf.

He told me to tag @ZOS_KNowak in here aswell since he is also part of the class balancing team along with @Wrobel since he is the lead gameplay designer. Thanks again Seiffer and hope you guys give this post a look.

That's great to hear. I'm looking forward to hear their thoughts about our suggestions.
I also don't think the majority of posts regarding Templar issues are just snippy comments. Especially Stamplars don't ask for more than other classes already have, namely CC, slightly better (passive) regeneration tools and active damage buffs.

Yeah but most people just ask, they do not argue WHY the change should be made or make the actual comparisons. You have to be indepth.

Can only agree with the ZOS developers there, argue your case in a constructive and civil manner and be precise and thorough, that is how anything works in this world if you want your points to come across.

Mojmir wrote: »

So you want to be a semi-bald woman wearing a thong or what are you saying?

Kas · February 2016

Zinaroth wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

zos will never takes these threads seriously if people write 10 pages and miss that stamplars just got major mending to buff vigor and rally to the extends only dk's used to have until now

that said, you got several valid points. but this patch is a HUGE buff stamplars. no ideal if it's enough but in my opinion it takes them to the level of stam dk's.

Aslong as Major Mending only lasts while standing inside the Rune or for 4 seconds after leaving it is a very minor buff.
Yes Major Mending is huge for Stamplar survivability, but once again it is something we get through clunky and cumbersome gameplay. As you read and aknowledged Stamplars have many other issues; ony of them being that their major defensive ability needs to be spammed every 8 second, which includes weapon swapping every 8 seconds, it shouldn't have to be like that. But yes, I agree, some people are really underplaying the importance of Major Mending, but honestly, it was needed, and honestly, Templars are the self healing class yet Stamina DKs had more self healing than Stamina Templars, that was ridiculous.

Going to reiterate here:
- Puncturing Strikes and its morphs needs a minor damage boost, mainly for PvE
- Burning Light has a hidden cooldown and doesn't proc on shields
- Class ultimates will still not be worth using; except for the situational Nova
- We need better rescource management through passives; as my comparison proves
- Eclipse needs an overhaul; I propose a self buff instead of a targeted one
- Sun Shield should not be affected by Battle Fatigue; it is still too weak in PvP and still gimmicky in PvE
- We have too few stamina morphs to make Stamina Templar choises interesting
- Rune Focus needs to be a true self buff and not a ground targeted effect, mobility is key and being the only class without mobility tools now we don't need to be further encumbered by having to stand still in a specific spot

it also lasts while in purifying ritual + 2sec's.
i don't want to say it makes this discussion obsolete, but it REALLY has to be acknowledged. It is a major buff, imho

Zinaroth · February 2016

Kas wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

zos will never takes these threads seriously if people write 10 pages and miss that stamplars just got major mending to buff vigor and rally to the extends only dk's used to have until now

that said, you got several valid points. but this patch is a HUGE buff stamplars. no ideal if it's enough but in my opinion it takes them to the level of stam dk's.

Aslong as Major Mending only lasts while standing inside the Rune or for 4 seconds after leaving it is a very minor buff.
Yes Major Mending is huge for Stamplar survivability, but once again it is something we get through clunky and cumbersome gameplay. As you read and aknowledged Stamplars have many other issues; ony of them being that their major defensive ability needs to be spammed every 8 second, which includes weapon swapping every 8 seconds, it shouldn't have to be like that. But yes, I agree, some people are really underplaying the importance of Major Mending, but honestly, it was needed, and honestly, Templars are the self healing class yet Stamina DKs had more self healing than Stamina Templars, that was ridiculous.

Going to reiterate here:
- Puncturing Strikes and its morphs needs a minor damage boost, mainly for PvE
- Burning Light has a hidden cooldown and doesn't proc on shields
- Class ultimates will still not be worth using; except for the situational Nova
- We need better rescource management through passives; as my comparison proves
- Eclipse needs an overhaul; I propose a self buff instead of a targeted one
- Sun Shield should not be affected by Battle Fatigue; it is still too weak in PvP and still gimmicky in PvE
- We have too few stamina morphs to make Stamina Templar choises interesting
- Rune Focus needs to be a true self buff and not a ground targeted effect, mobility is key and being the only class without mobility tools now we don't need to be further encumbered by having to stand still in a specific spot

it also lasts while in purifying ritual + 2sec's.
i don't want to say it makes this discussion obsolete, but it REALLY has to be acknowledged. It is a major buff, imho

I just aknowledged it? Why do you keep repeating that? I know it lasts inside Purifying Ritual, but that is also a ground targeted effect, I am fine with that though because it is bigger. But all of this still DOES NOT change the fact that our armor buff is a small ground targeted effect that only lasts 8 second if you leave the circle, it needs to be standardized to match up with the other classes, and I don't think it would be unfair if Major Mending, Minor Protection and whatever morph effect we chose, sticks with us aswell. In no way, shape, or form, would that make Templars OP, it would just give them the survivability they need since we have no proper utility, while not impairing our mobility.

I am not pushing for Purifying Ritual to be changed here, it is an awesome skill, it is Rune Focus that should be turned into a true self buff in accordance to what the other classes have. Templars being the only class without a movement tool AND being forced to stand inside a small area, unless he wants to weapon swap and rebuff every 6-7 seconds, just doesn't make sense, and isn't fair. I have argued it on here many times, and in the other threads aswell, and I don't see how what you're saying is justifying this indescrepancy.

Jura23 · February 2016

Kas wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

zos will never takes these threads seriously if people write 10 pages and miss that stamplars just got major mending to buff vigor and rally to the extends only dk's used to have until now

that said, you got several valid points. but this patch is a HUGE buff stamplars. no ideal if it's enough but in my opinion it takes them to the level of stam dk's.

Aslong as Major Mending only lasts while standing inside the Rune or for 4 seconds after leaving it is a very minor buff.
Yes Major Mending is huge for Stamplar survivability, but once again it is something we get through clunky and cumbersome gameplay. As you read and aknowledged Stamplars have many other issues; ony of them being that their major defensive ability needs to be spammed every 8 second, which includes weapon swapping every 8 seconds, it shouldn't have to be like that. But yes, I agree, some people are really underplaying the importance of Major Mending, but honestly, it was needed, and honestly, Templars are the self healing class yet Stamina DKs had more self healing than Stamina Templars, that was ridiculous.

Going to reiterate here:
- Puncturing Strikes and its morphs needs a minor damage boost, mainly for PvE
- Burning Light has a hidden cooldown and doesn't proc on shields
- Class ultimates will still not be worth using; except for the situational Nova
- We need better rescource management through passives; as my comparison proves
- Eclipse needs an overhaul; I propose a self buff instead of a targeted one
- Sun Shield should not be affected by Battle Fatigue; it is still too weak in PvP and still gimmicky in PvE
- We have too few stamina morphs to make Stamina Templar choises interesting
- Rune Focus needs to be a true self buff and not a ground targeted effect, mobility is key and being the only class without mobility tools now we don't need to be further encumbered by having to stand still in a specific spot

it also lasts while in purifying ritual + 2sec's.
i don't want to say it makes this discussion obsolete, but it REALLY has to be acknowledged. It is a major buff, imho

It is good buff when we talk about Cleansing ritual, I said that already in another topic, but it's not enough. My main problem is now that the Jabs snare still applies on the last hit, instead of the first. That's the difference for me now so I could consider this patchto be of reasonable help. If they change this, I'm fine and we will see how Templars are doing after it goes live.

Zinaroth · February 2016

Jura23 wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

zos will never takes these threads seriously if people write 10 pages and miss that stamplars just got major mending to buff vigor and rally to the extends only dk's used to have until now

that said, you got several valid points. but this patch is a HUGE buff stamplars. no ideal if it's enough but in my opinion it takes them to the level of stam dk's.

Aslong as Major Mending only lasts while standing inside the Rune or for 4 seconds after leaving it is a very minor buff.
Yes Major Mending is huge for Stamplar survivability, but once again it is something we get through clunky and cumbersome gameplay. As you read and aknowledged Stamplars have many other issues; ony of them being that their major defensive ability needs to be spammed every 8 second, which includes weapon swapping every 8 seconds, it shouldn't have to be like that. But yes, I agree, some people are really underplaying the importance of Major Mending, but honestly, it was needed, and honestly, Templars are the self healing class yet Stamina DKs had more self healing than Stamina Templars, that was ridiculous.

Going to reiterate here:
- Puncturing Strikes and its morphs needs a minor damage boost, mainly for PvE
- Burning Light has a hidden cooldown and doesn't proc on shields
- Class ultimates will still not be worth using; except for the situational Nova
- We need better rescource management through passives; as my comparison proves
- Eclipse needs an overhaul; I propose a self buff instead of a targeted one
- Sun Shield should not be affected by Battle Fatigue; it is still too weak in PvP and still gimmicky in PvE
- We have too few stamina morphs to make Stamina Templar choises interesting
- Rune Focus needs to be a true self buff and not a ground targeted effect, mobility is key and being the only class without mobility tools now we don't need to be further encumbered by having to stand still in a specific spot

it also lasts while in purifying ritual + 2sec's.
i don't want to say it makes this discussion obsolete, but it REALLY has to be acknowledged. It is a major buff, imho

It is good buff when we talk about Cleansing ritual, I said that already in another topic, but it's not enough. My main problem is now that the Jabs snare still applies on the last hit, instead of the first. That's the difference for me now so I could consider this patchto be of reasonable help. If they change this, I'm fine and we will see how Templars are doing after it goes live.

Why wait? You can jump on PTS and test it out now. Now is the time if we want something changed, otherwise we might have to wait another year. Agree on the snare on first hit instead of last, mentioned it in the OP aswell, but it is not a major concern for me, nothing compared to the Rune Focus or some of the other concerns I listed atleast.

Joy_Division · February 2016

TY @Zinaroth for typing this very well thought out feedback for the developers and for people who do not have much experience with stamina templars (like myself!). This is a very incisive look into the mechanics of the class and absolutely worth reading and re-reading.

Therium104 · February 2016

Templar is fine. No buffs required. Your analysis is flawed.

Zinaroth · February 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

TY @Zinaroth for typing this very well thought out feedback for the developers and for people who do not have much experience with stamina templars (like myself!). This is a very incisive look into the mechanics of the class and absolutely worth reading and re-reading.

Thank you man.

Therium104 wrote: »

Templar is fine. No buffs required. Your analysis is flawed.

What am I supposed to do with this claim? If you want to challenge my analysis make your own or come up with some arguments against mine. Your words hold no weight on their own.

Latter · February 2016

Thanks for posting this Zinaroth, i'm glad someone is taking the initiative.

Husan · February 2016

Zinaroth wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Templar is fine. No buffs required. Your analysis is flawed.

What am I supposed to do with this claim? If you want to challenge my analysis make your own or come up with some arguments against mine. Your words hold no weight on their own.

He is just a flamer boy, ignore him. He is doing us a favour bumping the topic and giving this thread more exposure

.

TheM0rganism · February 2016

As an Imperial templar tank...bless you child!

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Therium104 wrote: »

Templar is fine. No buffs required. Your analysis is flawed.

We could give more credence to your claim if you could argue point by point why this is true, particularly with respect to the balance of all classes. If you can't do this, you're not really adding much to the conversation.

BlackEar · February 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Templar is fine. No buffs required. Your analysis is flawed.

We could give more credence to your claim if you could argue point by point why this is true, particularly with respect to the balance of all classes. If you can't do this, you're not really adding much to the conversation.

@dodgehopper_ESO Just ignore the bait.

Everyone who played Templar + another or even just Templars knows they have issues.

Cinbri · February 2016

BlackEar wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Templar is fine. No buffs required. Your analysis is flawed.

We could give more credence to your claim if you could argue point by point why this is true, particularly with respect to the balance of all classes. If you can't do this, you're not really adding much to the conversation.

@dodgehopper_ESO Just ignore the bait.

Everyone who played Templar + another or even just Templars knows they have issues.

No, it just means we all must L2P this class, not a single player learnt to do it yet.

caeliusstarbreaker · February 2016

I just wish the applied the major mending stuff and left everything else about the class alone

Elara_Northwind · February 2016

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

I just wish the applied the major mending stuff and left everything else about the class alone

I feel the same way, I much prefer my templar on live than on pts... Nothing that needed fixing got fixed, just some weird stuff that ruins life got changed, so if no changes that were needed are going to be made, then I would actually much rather she just stays exactly how she is right now please