Don't lower the AP required to level Assault and Support skill lines

dday3six · February 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Lowered AP requirements means Prox Det is coming to Blackwater blade. God help us all. The best part of BWB was no prox det and no meteor. Yes you could get both but it was very hard to do. Not anymore.

Keep in mind the base damage on Magicka Det is lowered by 15% and BWB is non-CP. It'll be there but as a shadow of it's former self.

redspecter23 · February 2016

I think this is an amazing change. As someone who is not an elite pvp player, I could get maybe 30k a night. I was looking at months - years to level my alts through the skill line. Now I can pvp for fun rather than focus on max AP/hour. I'll be in pvp because I want to be there not simply to grind AP until my eyes bleed.

FlyLeaf30 · February 2016

I agree with Red, yes I am a primary PVE player, going to the grindfest of pvp and dealing with zergs all spamming spells then crashing out, it's horrible. Whenever I do PVP, I get maybe 30-40K AP/night (roughly 3-4 hours) I like the change a lot because this means I can get Caltrops and Mag Det faster for PVE sake. I do agree with the undaunted argument though. If you nerf the amount of AP you gain for the skills, then you should also nerf the amount of XP you get for the undaunted skills.

MidnightBlue · February 2016

Undaunted levels slow for me, but I hardly do any dungeons in general probably because it's hard to find people to do them with.

James-Wayne · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Because you're cheapening it. Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long, so my only assumption is you're catering to all the PVE whiners. Why should their opinions reflect what you do with Alliance war?
You're making PVP less of an achievement, and if this sticks, I expect you to lower the experience needed for the Undaunted skill line so we can obtain that faster too.

Same reason the PvP players are getting access to things like Monster sets. Deal with it!

Septimus_Magna · February 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Lowered AP requirements means Prox Det is coming to Blackwater blade. God help us all. The best part of BWB was no prox det and no meteor. Yes you could get both but it was very hard to do. Not anymore.

Keep in mind the base damage on Magicka Det is lowered by 15% and BWB is non-CP. It'll be there but as a shadow of it's former self.

Base dmg is lowered by 15% but dmg scales up by 10% per target hit up to 100%, when hitting 10 or more targets.

Base dmg - Proxy Det: 10k (not considering crits)

1 target dmg live: 10k
2 targets dmg live: 11k
3 targets dmg live: 11.50k
4 targets dmg live: 12k
5-10 targets dmg live: 12.50k

1 target dmg pts: 8.50k
2 targets dmg pts: 10.20k
3 targets dmg pts: 11.05k
4 targets dmg pts: 11.90k
5 targets dmg pts: 12.75k
6 targets dmg pts: 13.60k
7 targets dmg pts: 14.45k
8 targets dmg pts: 15.30k
9 targets dmg pts: 16.15k
10 targets pts: 17k

Min dmg for Proxy Det is nerfed by 15%.
Dmg against less than 4 targets has been nerfed slightly.
Dmg against 5 or more targets has been buffed significantly.
Max dmg for Proxy Det is buffed by 36%.

It will wreck complete raids with enough simultaneous hits.

Emma_Overload · February 2016

The Uninvited wrote: »

MountainHound wrote: »

The thing is though, it is making a mockery of all the players that put in hours and hours of game play to get to rank 50. My highest character is 25 and that took alot of play time.

I would only accept this change IF it encouraged more people to PVP to unlock the skill points or something... but as pointed out in this thread it seems that once people get vigor, they wont be returning.

But the same goes for the PVP crowd once they max Undaunted, they won't return to PVE.

There is only 1 solution to stop the back-and-forth discussion and that is to make it so that Undaunted skills can't be used in PVP and Alliance skills can't be used in PVE.

But I can only begin to imagine the raging that will bring.

The problem with your solution is that it only benefits PvP players. PvE players will still be disadvantaged when they are grinding in so-called "PvP zones" like the Imperial City. Also, the Undaunted line is massively under-powered compared to the Assault line, so giving up Undaunted in PvP is not really much of a sacrifice for PvP players. As I already pointed out, however, Veteran Maelstrom is basically unplayable for Stamina builds without Vigor.

Tankqull · February 2016

jep don´t change them just disable aliance war abilities outside of cyrodil to free pveer´s from the need of grinding them!

Glory · February 2016

Meh.

I was one of the scrubs who called for account wide alliance ranks a while ago. I find the push for AR10 on 8 characters to be tedious, and sometimes wondered what rank I would be if I had all my collective AP earned combined on one character. So, I am fine with the changes.

I will say however, that I strongly feel that there should be some incentivization to achieving a higher PvP rank, as many have called for in the past. Be it improved Rewards for the Worthy (each PvP rank gives an x% boosted chance at getting an actual set piece perhaps?), title based costumes (if you're into that thing), etc. This is coming from a person who doesn't even have anyone over rank 30 (although I have several rank 20s), I just feel that people who put time into this system deserve SOME kind of tangible benefit.

Kas · February 2016

There should rather be a form of progression (albeit small) until AR50 (and beyond???).

Who cares if this makes high ranked players stronger and hard to beat. Make killing them provide 4 times the AP. You already see the symbol and you already know you're in for a harder fight than against that typical PvE-player trying to get his caltrops or deto (unless you find a large-group-more-people-more-fun champ without his friends).

I don't see a problem making high ranked players strong (only within cyrodiil) and killing them an acievment with rewards (e.g. 4k AP plus new multiplyier) when solo killing them. I don't see how this hurts. Instead, it really motivates people to stick around

The Uninvited · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long...

You're making PVP less of an achievement

Reading this again and it doesn't really make sense to me. It's an achievement OR it doesn't take that long. Can't be both, can it?

Kas · February 2016

The Uninvited wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long...

You're making PVP less of an achievement

Reading this again and it doesn't really make sense to me. It's an achievement OR it doesn't take that long. Can't be both, can it?

ar 24 / assualt/support 10 was kind of an achievment. sure, active pvp players have long eclipsed this and many players have done it on several char. still it used to include more effort than undaunted 9, even for very efficient players making more than 50k AP/h (unless they additionally really sucked in PvE and took hours to run a daily, but i don't think so

)

So while skillines at 10 and all passives wasn't "special" or anywhere near the really high AvA ranks, it WAS kind of an achievment. Still, getting to 7 never took too long

WillhelmBlack · February 2016

I'm with you on that, Aluc!

The Uninvited · February 2016

Kas wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long...

You're making PVP less of an achievement

Reading this again and it doesn't really make sense to me. It's an achievement OR it doesn't take that long. Can't be both, can it?

ar 24 / assualt/support 10 was kind of an achievment. sure, active pvp players have long eclipsed this and many players have done it on several char. still it used to include more effort than undaunted 9, even for very efficient players making more than 50k AP/h (unless they additionally really sucked in PvE and took hours to run a daily, but i don't think so )

So while skillines at 10 and all passives wasn't "special" or anywhere near the really high AvA ranks, it WAS kind of an achievment. Still, getting to 7 never took too long

Than they should make it so that skills unlock faster (with lower AP needed) but PVP titles should unlock slower (with higher AP needed).

That way, PVE players can get the skills but not the titles and PVP players would still have something to show for.

code65536 · February 2016

The Uninvited wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long...

You're making PVP less of an achievement

Reading this again and it doesn't really make sense to me. It's an achievement OR it doesn't take that long. Can't be both, can it?

ar 24 / assualt/support 10 was kind of an achievment. sure, active pvp players have long eclipsed this and many players have done it on several char. still it used to include more effort than undaunted 9, even for very efficient players making more than 50k AP/h (unless they additionally really sucked in PvE and took hours to run a daily, but i don't think so )

So while skillines at 10 and all passives wasn't "special" or anywhere near the really high AvA ranks, it WAS kind of an achievment. Still, getting to 7 never took too long

Than they should make it so that skills unlock faster (with lower AP needed) but PVP titles should unlock slower (with higher AP needed).

That way, PVE players can get the skills but not the titles and PVP players would still have something to show for.

...which is exactly what they did.

On the PTS, my main is Assault/Support 10, but her rank and title is still First Sergeant.

The Uninvited · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Kas wrote: »

The Uninvited wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Seriously, getting to level 7 to unlock all the skills does not take THAT long...

You're making PVP less of an achievement

Reading this again and it doesn't really make sense to me. It's an achievement OR it doesn't take that long. Can't be both, can it?

ar 24 / assualt/support 10 was kind of an achievment. sure, active pvp players have long eclipsed this and many players have done it on several char. still it used to include more effort than undaunted 9, even for very efficient players making more than 50k AP/h (unless they additionally really sucked in PvE and took hours to run a daily, but i don't think so )

So while skillines at 10 and all passives wasn't "special" or anywhere near the really high AvA ranks, it WAS kind of an achievment. Still, getting to 7 never took too long

Than they should make it so that skills unlock faster (with lower AP needed) but PVP titles should unlock slower (with higher AP needed).

That way, PVE players can get the skills but not the titles and PVP players would still have something to show for.

...which is exactly what they did.

On the PTS, my main is Assault/Support 10, but her rank and title is still First Sergeant.

I'm on EU so no character copy yet, but if so than that's okay I guess. Templates are all Tribune rank.

Vyle_Byte · February 2016

Paulington wrote: »

Hey all.

Just haven't seen these numbers anywhere yet so wanted to let people know the new AP requirements for the Assault/Support skill trees.

Rank 1: 0 - 700 AP
Rank 2: 700 - 8,000 AP
Rank 3: 8,000 - 37,300 AP
Rank 4: 37,300 - 90,000 AP
Rank 5: 90,000 - 150,000 AP
Rank 6: 150,000 - 210,000 AP
Rank 7: 210,000 - 300,000 AP
Rank 8: 300,000 - 450,000 AP
Rank 9: 450,000 - 670,000 AP
Rank 10: 670,000 AP.

This means if you are AvA Rank (not skill, RANK) 8 or above on Live you will get Proxy. If you are AvA Rank 11.5 (or so) on live then you will max out the Alliance War skill trees when this goes live providing nothing changes.

Here's the actual numbers needed now. Taken from this thread
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245335/new-ava-skill-line-requirements#latest

Its mind boggling. I don't even know what to say, a bit disappointed with this change. They just keep dumbing down pvp. It SHOULD be an achievement for ranking up. Its not like there is much that is actually challenging in this game. I play pvp to feel challenged. I don't have a single character yet that is above like rank 6 or 7 mostly bc I reroll to play BWB. Point is, I like that, its not epically easy to get those higher level skills, well, it wasn't. Now it wont even feel good to get it.

And honestly, idc about the arguments of pvp skills vs pve sets bc I never asked for that. If I wanted helms and shoulders Id have run the dungeons. IMO thats the way it should be. They are supposed to be separate damnit.

And please people, quit telling others to stop whinning. Its just silly. I don't see anything as whinning, I see it as human beings having opinions and feelings on matters. Because, human beings.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · February 2016

Vyle_Byte wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

Hey all.

Just haven't seen these numbers anywhere yet so wanted to let people know the new AP requirements for the Assault/Support skill trees.

Rank 1: 0 - 700 AP
Rank 2: 700 - 8,000 AP
Rank 3: 8,000 - 37,300 AP
Rank 4: 37,300 - 90,000 AP
Rank 5: 90,000 - 150,000 AP
Rank 6: 150,000 - 210,000 AP
Rank 7: 210,000 - 300,000 AP
Rank 8: 300,000 - 450,000 AP
Rank 9: 450,000 - 670,000 AP
Rank 10: 670,000 AP.

This means if you are AvA Rank (not skill, RANK) 8 or above on Live you will get Proxy. If you are AvA Rank 11.5 (or so) on live then you will max out the Alliance War skill trees when this goes live providing nothing changes.

Here's the actual numbers needed now. Taken from this thread
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245335/new-ava-skill-line-requirements#latest

Its mind boggling. I don't even know what to say, a bit disappointed with this change. They just keep dumbing down pvp. It SHOULD be an achievement for ranking up. Its not like there is much that is actually challenging in this game. I play pvp to feel challenged. I don't have a single character yet that is above like rank 6 or 7 mostly bc I reroll to play BWB. Point is, I like that, its not epically easy to get those higher level skills, well, it wasn't. Now it wont even feel good to get it.

And honestly, idc about the arguments of pvp skills vs pve sets bc I never asked for that. If I wanted helms and shoulders Id have run the dungeons. IMO thats the way it should be. They are supposed to be separate damnit.

And please people, quit telling others to stop whinning. Its just silly. I don't see anything as whinning, I see it as human beings having opinions and feelings on matters. Because, human beings.

Well, PvPers get to skip past the effort of getting helms in dungeons, I know anyone can get it, but we all know it's mostly to cater to PvPers that don't want to have to use time and effort to get helms the intended way. So I got no sympathy for PvPers complaining about PvErs not having to spend as much time in PvP.

Enodoc · February 2016

From that same thread, here's something I think is a reasonable compromise, which would keep the skill levels lined up with ranks:

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Thanks Xendyn! These numbers are weird. I would prefer it if they kept them in line with Alliance War rank numbers.

I agree! As a compromise, they should've made it every 2 AvA ranks, instead of every 3 AvA ranks. And that way, it can line up neatly with each insignia/title change.

Please, ZOS_BrianWheeler ZOS_RichLambert compromise and make Support/Assault 4-10 happen at AvA 5, 7, 9, ..., 17. This will ease the Support/Assault progression without making it too much of a cakewalk, and it will line up very nicely with the insignia/title/achievements, to give each titled rank progression up to Lieutenant more meaning. (Also, this means that each skill rank-up will still coincide with a new skill point, which simply makes a lot of sense.)

Agreed. I was coming to the same conclusion that every 2 ranks up to 17 would be a good balance. It's still a 3-fold reduction from what it is on Live now; it's not as ridiculously low as 670k, but it's not as high as 6.9 mil either. That would take 2-3 months at ~30k per night, rather than over half a year now, which I think is reasonable balance of time for maxing a skill line. (Is 30k a night realistic? I don't pay much attention to the numbers, but someone mentioned that value elsewhere.)

Arkraptor · February 2016

While I like it that most of my alts are now at least rank 8-10, it does seem a bit much. Changing it such that you get a rank on the skill line for every 2 alliance rank seems like a good suggestion that preserves the sense of progression but makes it reasonable for people who mostly PvE (like me) to unlock good skills like Vigor, Caltrops, Warhorn, and Prox Det.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · February 2016

Enodoc wrote: »

From that same thread, here's something I think is a reasonable compromise, which would keep the skill levels lined up with ranks:

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Thanks Xendyn! These numbers are weird. I would prefer it if they kept them in line with Alliance War rank numbers.

I agree! As a compromise, they should've made it every 2 AvA ranks, instead of every 3 AvA ranks. And that way, it can line up neatly with each insignia/title change.

Please, ZOS_BrianWheeler ZOS_RichLambert compromise and make Support/Assault 4-10 happen at AvA 5, 7, 9, ..., 17. This will ease the Support/Assault progression without making it too much of a cakewalk, and it will line up very nicely with the insignia/title/achievements, to give each titled rank progression up to Lieutenant more meaning. (Also, this means that each skill rank-up will still coincide with a new skill point, which simply makes a lot of sense.)

Agreed. I was coming to the same conclusion that every 2 ranks up to 17 would be a good balance. It's still a 3-fold reduction from what it is on Live now; it's not as ridiculously low as 670k, but it's not as high as 6.9 mil either. That would take 2-3 months at ~30k per night, rather than over half a year now, which I think is reasonable balance of time for maxing a skill line. (Is 30k a night realistic? I don't pay much attention to the numbers, but someone mentioned that value elsewhere.)

Soooo, fighters guild, mages guild and undaunted should take everyone 2-3 months each by doing those a few hours a day too?

Enodoc · February 2016

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

From that same thread, here's something I think is a reasonable compromise, which would keep the skill levels lined up with ranks:

Enodoc wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Thanks Xendyn! These numbers are weird. I would prefer it if they kept them in line with Alliance War rank numbers.

I agree! As a compromise, they should've made it every 2 AvA ranks, instead of every 3 AvA ranks. And that way, it can line up neatly with each insignia/title change.

Please, ZOS_BrianWheeler ZOS_RichLambert compromise and make Support/Assault 4-10 happen at AvA 5, 7, 9, ..., 17. This will ease the Support/Assault progression without making it too much of a cakewalk, and it will line up very nicely with the insignia/title/achievements, to give each titled rank progression up to Lieutenant more meaning. (Also, this means that each skill rank-up will still coincide with a new skill point, which simply makes a lot of sense.)

Agreed. I was coming to the same conclusion that every 2 ranks up to 17 would be a good balance. It's still a 3-fold reduction from what it is on Live now; it's not as ridiculously low as 670k, but it's not as high as 6.9 mil either. That would take 2-3 months at ~30k per night, rather than over half a year now, which I think is reasonable balance of time for maxing a skill line. (Is 30k a night realistic? I don't pay much attention to the numbers, but someone mentioned that value elsewhere.)

Soooo, fighters guild, mages guild and undaunted should take everyone 2-3 months each by doing those a few hours a day too?

Yes? I know it took me more than 3 months to max Fighters Guild. But I have no idea what the average AP gain rate is; I was basing that (30k) on one post by one player.

Here's my thinking: You have to kill 4272 Undead/Daedra to max Fighters Guild (assuming one elite per 5 standard mobs, and 5 FG rep for an elite kill). Assuming 800 AP per player kill, that's 3.4 mil AP for 4272 player kills. (Fighters Guild is a good comparison here, but Mages Guild is less useful because it doesn't involve any combat.) 3.4 mil AP puts you at Alliance Rank 19. Drop that down to Alliance Rank 17 (2.4 mil AP), and you get a nice increment of one skill line level every two ranks, and something that is kill-comparable to levelling Fighters Guild.

Alucardo · February 2016

OK, so they've also seemed to have DOUBLED the AP you get from repairing walls. You're literally going to be able to skate through the PVP ranks. I hope everyone is now happy.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

OK, so they've also seemed to have DOUBLED the AP you get from repairing walls. You're literally going to be able to skate through the PVP ranks. I hope everyone is now happy.

Very happy, it's only fair when PvPers can just buy a helm they want for pocket change without having to put in any effort. And yes, I know anyone can do that, but everyone knows it's mostly for PvPers that don't want to PvE.

Jura23 · February 2016

Yeah there is no reason to lower ranks of these lines. It's still gonna be easier since they are increasing AP gain for kills. Together with this change it would be too much.

Didgerion · February 2016

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

If you didn't notice - ZOS has nerfed zerg groups badly.

That makes AP grinding much slower for PVE players.

The quick rez is not a problem anymore....those people that die fast are a potential self launching bombs now - no one will want to rez them --- cause you rez them and they are dead in a second again and boom!

I consider these changes amazing.....good job ZOS......I hate grinding in any form....so good job....I'm a PVP-er by the way.

They were also significantly increasing the AP gains for small groups, or will that be in the next update?

Yeah most probably PVE players will run in groups of 4 (their comfort size) to grind for AP...but guess what....they might enjoy it...now running in groups of 4 is viable again....they might like it and stay in PVP forever....isn't it what PVPers want.....to lure new players into Cyrodiil for grinding ...and then them staying in Cyrodiil indefinitely because they love it......if they don't like it then let them out of Cyrodiil ASAP.

LokoMatic · February 2016

Dumbest thing I have ever seen. As if you haven't nerfed the assault and support lines enough already, combat frenzy will no longer be a passive because EVERYONE WILL HAVE IT.

If this is the case can Legate's get a flying mount?

Can Palatine's get a 3rd tier to combat frenzy?

Can Grand Warlord's get hardened ward and cloak?

Give us something to play for for gods sake.

Your most loyal and long term enabled community is the PVP community. It is an established community of people whom have been playing for as long as 2 years. How can you in the non-delusional mindset make changes that do not apply and thwart the long term pvpers?

code65536 · February 2016

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245393

LokoMatic · February 2016

Some people have spent 6 months getting Tier 2 combat frenzy. For you to give newcomers the ability to get this in less than 1 week is insane.

You are taking steps backwards appeasing the long term community. 50% of the new PVP'ers will leave regardless once they get roflstomped by a player with better skill. Adding in this won't make them stay any longer, you will just hurt the community and lose player engagement. With a few new MMO's popping up, this is honestly the worst financial mistake you could make as the most loyal playerbase will feel left out and move to new games. You have to keep them happy if you want them to stay.

The Uninvited · February 2016

code65536 wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/245393

If those numbers are real, I can understand the "big deal" now. That really is a very, very large discount in needed AP...

That proposal seems to be more fitting for both parties.