Bombard -will be the New Steel Tornado - This must be addressed before the TG gets out of the PTS

silky_soft · February 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

@Wrobel

I like many other players are excited about the coming Thieves Guild DLC. We are all excited about the upcoming changes. There is one skill however that is being put under the radar (Downplayed intentionally) and that is Bombard from the Bow and Arrow Line.

Lets Look at the Bombard Skill

Bombard
Range - 20 meters (More with Cyrodiil buffs)

Ranged Area of Effect - Does damage to multiple targets at range.

Ranged Root - It Roots targets in place at range.

Ranged Snare - It Snares Targets by 40% for 5 secs after the root is over.

Doesn't require targeting like other ranged AOE (See lighting Flood, Blazing Spear, Eruption, etc)

Snares can stack on top of each other making the target 100% snared meaning they can't move, can't dodge roll out of it, can't CC break it

Bombard in its current state is insanely OP in a PVP group setting and smart people know this. Its being downplayed intentionally. If Bombard is not changed it will be the new Steel Tornado which is what it seemed you guys are wanting to get away from.

If Bombard stays as it is, every raid will have many Bombard spammers. The only reason most raids have only 2-3 Bombard spammers now is because Steel Tornado is so insanely good, once its nerfed, Bombard becomes the new FOTM because its so insanely good for what it does and its cost. A ranged spammable root and snare that gives no CC immunity that puts out very good damage. Its too much and it needs to be changed.

My Suggestion is:
Arrow Spray - Slightly increase the cost of the base skill

Acid Spray - costs less, and gets its Poison Dot damage increased slightly and snares.

Bombard - gets its snare and replace the root component with Minor Fracture and Minor Breech which is a small reduction to Armor and Spell Resistance and remove the rooting component of the skill.

these are suggestions, something however needs to be done. Bombard will be the new Steel Tornado in Cyrodiil if its left as it is. No one wants the skill to be useless, but a ranged spammable AOE snare and root is just OP. Its every bit as OP as Steel Tornado is right now, its just not as popular. If left as it is though, it will be very very popular next update once many realize how OP the skill actually is in its current form in a group setting.

I know i'll take heat for posting this, but it needs to be said. The skill needs to be addressed, a spammable AOE snare and root with a 20+ meter range at such a cheap cost is OP in its current form in PVP. If left as is, it will only be natural that many Steel Nado users will go to Bombard because of insanely good the skill is considering there is no Cc immunity to roots or snares.

I have said my part, and thank you for taking the time to listen to my feedback.

I really don't get it:
It does exactly what artillery should do: desorganise logistics & movement of your opponents.

Bombard never changed throughout this game since the start !!!

Are we nerfing down this game to Oblivion or what ?

Bombard is fine as it is !

Sometimes sorcs get butthurt and make dumb topics like this. Other times they are butthurt there is nothing to be butthurt about and just start crying.

Farorin · February 2016

I don't see anything wrong with bombard, or steel tornado, this is comming from someone who PVPs a decent amount, and does not use either of those skills despite using DW and bow on my main.

tinythinker · February 2016

Best to wait and see what players actually use. I asked a while back what would be the new steel tornado after the update, but honestly, we won't truly know until players keep trying out different builds to see what gets maximum benefit.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

silky_soft wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Sometimes sorcs get butthurt and make dumb topics like this. Other times they are butthurt there is nothing to be butthurt about and just start crying.

What a petty classless statement. One that has nothing to do with anything and adds nothing to the conversation. Congrats!

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

Im not here to debate this, im here to put this out there to ZOS. At the end of the day it will be their call, but its very easy to see where things will go if Bombard is left in its current state.

Just like I told them making changes to Detect Pots was a big mistake (Its now Elder Nightblades Online and Cloak is the biggest complaint here now)

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/182554/so-now-that-detect-pots-will-no-longer-work-against-cloak-in-1-7/p1

Bombard will have a much larger presense in group PVP once Steel Tornado is nerfed.

Sadly, removing the root from Bombard and replacing it with a Minor Armor Reduction actually gives it good group utility while keeping its damage and snare. An AOE cone spammable Root is OP, the snare and damage is just cheese. Removing the root and replacing it with something else isn't going to ruin the skill at all.

However, I have said my part on this...if this gets out of the PTS in its current form, Cyrodiil will be full of Bombard Spammers in groups just like groups are full of Steel tornado spammers now.....just like Cyrodiil is full of Nightblades now because of the nerfs to detect pots....its not hard to see where things go in this game.

I have said my part, now its up to ZOS to decide if they want more of the same(stack group spamming X AOE ability with a CC) or if they actually want to change the gameplay somewhat, the ball is in their court.

actosh · February 2016

The Argument works for everything, if u want to nerf that specific skill, u gotta go ahead and nerf EVERYTHING that does aoe,cc, or is spamable.

There will always be skills used by zergs to bomb the *** out of the other grp. We can nerf Mag Det as well as all other skills.

Kas · February 2016

great post and this might really be an issue... on the other hand, depending on what ahppens w.r.t.- siege, we might end up with a patch where any use of an (AoE) ability might be a wasted opportunity to set up/fire another siege ^^

mr_wazzabi · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Im not here to debate this, im here to put this out there to ZOS. At the end of the day it will be their call, but its very easy to see where things will go if Bombard is left in its current state.

Just like I told them making changes to Detect Pots was a big mistake (Its now Elder Nightblades Online and Cloak is the biggest complaint here now)

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/182554/so-now-that-detect-pots-will-no-longer-work-against-cloak-in-1-7/p1

Bombard will have a much larger presense in group PVP once Steel Tornado is nerfed.

Sadly, removing the root from Bombard and replacing it with a Minor Armor Reduction actually gives it good group utility while keeping its damage and snare. An AOE cone spammable Root is OP, the snare and damage is just cheese. Removing the root and replacing it with something else isn't going to ruin the skill at all.

However, I have said my part on this...if this gets out of the PTS in its current form, Cyrodiil will be full of Bombard Spammers in groups just like groups are full of Steel tornado spammers now.....just like Cyrodiil is full of Nightblades now because of the nerfs to detect pots....its not hard to see where things go in this game.

I have said my part, now its up to ZOS to decide if they want more of the same(stack group spamming X AOE ability with a CC) or if they actually want to change the gameplay somewhat, the ball is in their court.

Detect pots at 40s made nb useless. The 10s detect time is just right. You have to be skillful in your use of detect pots, not run around with 100% detection 90% of the time.

See a nb gank your buddy and cloak, use a detect pot. He won't get away within 10s if you're a good player. 40s means you can keep eating the pots for your entire stay in cyrodiil with only a 20s cooldown of detection in between pots. Pretty much nb are a useless class if that was the case.

Septimus_Magna · February 2016

This broken skill is main reason why I re-morphed Rally to Forward Momentum.

Retreating Maneuver and Shuffle are great skills to reduce snare but they cost a lot of stamina to cast.

BEZDNA · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Lets Look at the Bombard Skill

Bombard
Range - 20 meters (More with Cyrodiil buffs)

Bombard has no range. It has 20 meters RADIUS, which doesn't change in Cyrodil and can't be incresed by any passives.

blur · February 2016

@Wrobel

Bombard is fine.
OP did not mention practically every stamina build has Shuffle on their bar. OP did not mention a lot of non stamina builds have Efficient Purge which is cheap to cast. Lastly everyone has Retreating Maneuvers. Let's not pretend Bombard is breaking PvP. Bombard is actually keeping roll dodge spamming / perma dodgers (shuffle) somewhat in check.

This is just another "omg the sky is falling post."

Joy_Division · February 2016

I don't think people should be calling for nerfs before the patch notes are up.

actosh · February 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

I don't think people should be calling for nerfs before the patch notes are up.

ppl should to extensive tests first and recheck them before providing detailed feedback. I hope the devs ignore each thread that has "NERF" in the title

Xantaria · February 2016

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Here's a MUCH better solution:

1) Leave Bombard alone.

2) Cancel the Tornado nerf.

3) UN-nerf Impulse and Wall of Elements.

4) QUIT BEGGING FOR NERFS!

actually yes that would be the easiest solution.

karakondzula · February 2016

I will just say YES! Because i'm tired of people who just say "NO!" or "NO JUST NO!" and never elaborate.

BEZDNA · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

My Suggestion is:
Bombard - gets its snare and replace the root component with Minor Fracture and Minor Breech which is a small reduction to Armor and Spell Resistance and remove the rooting component of the skill.

You shud understend that for clases like templars and nightblades bombard is the only way to get aoe root, like dk and sorcs have. And that root is very important for some builds, like mine 2h/bow stamblade. I don't like you sudgestion at all.

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

As i said before. I understand, I get it...no one wants a skill they use to be changed.

If Bombard is not changed, Let it not be said that someone spoke up many months agoabout how broken this skill is due to no immunity on soft CC.

Everyone here is missing the point:

Soft Cc like roots have Immunity Timer.

If I root you
You dodge
I can then root you again
this can go on over and over ad infinitium until one of us runs out of resources(most likely the one dodgeroller due to Increased Cost
If i cast Purge to purge root
You can immediately root me again

)

Lastly Purge is being changed and probably won't be a viable counter due to either increased cost or some sort of cooldown on how many times you can be purged in a set time frame.

the issue is there is no immunity on soft CC, Encase and Talons are extremly powerful right now...Does anyone here remember the Talon spam of 2014? Huge Range, Good damage, and DOT to boot? Bombard is the same thing....Bombard has been OP for months, just Steel Tornado is better that whys Bombard spam isn't as bad as Steel Tornado Spam is.

You want Bombard left as is? Fine then after dodgerolling you should be immune to roots and snares for 6 Secs just like your immune to hard Cc when you break free, otherwise Bombard and skills like it are every bit as broken as Spambush and the Gap closer garbage we currently have on live due to fact of no root immunity and snares stacking from multiple sources...guess what happens when your snared 100%?...you cna't move nor dodge, nor do anything at all yets its no apprent to the player...its so broken, anyone defending this i seriously question their motives.

Zheg · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As i said before. I understand, I get it...no one wants a skill they use to be changed.

If Bombard is not changed, Let it not be said that someone spoke up many months agoabout how broken this skill is due to no immunity on soft CC.

Everyone here is missing the point:

Soft Cc like roots have Immunity Timer.
If I root you

You dodge

I can then root you again

this can go on over and over ad infinitium until one of us runs out of resources(most likely the one dodgeroller due to Increased Cost

If i cast Purge to purge root

You can immediately root me again

)

Lastly Purge is being changed and probably won't be a viable counter due to either increased cost or some sort of cooldown on how many times you can be purged in a set time frame.

the issue is there is no immunity on soft CC, Encase and Talons are extremly powerful right now...Does anyone here remember the Talon spam of 2014? Huge Range, Good damage, and DOT to boot? Bombard is the same thing....Bombard has been OP for months, just Steel Tornado is better that whys Bombard spam isn't as bad as Steel Tornado Spam is.

You want Bombard left as is? Fine then after dodgerolling you should be immune to roots and snares for 6 Secs just like your immune to hard Cc when you break free, otherwise Bombard and skills like it are every bit as broken as Spambush and the Gap closer garbage we currently have on live due to fact of no root immunity and snares stacking from multiple sources...guess what happens when your snared 100%?...you cna't move nor dodge, nor do anything at all yets its no apprent to the player...its so broken, anyone defending this i seriously question their motives.

Sorcs can still streak away when rooted (dumb...). While not optimal at all and starts to not work when there's more than one person spamming bombard on you, purge is available. If you're stam you have multiple skills available to you. Make friends with someone that can cast rapids? I agree bombard spam is annoying and already here, but I don't get the same chicken little feeling on this as I do about some of the dumber siege changes coming.

Telel · February 2016

This one is just going to point out that bombard...

A) Is a cone, not a bubble like steel tornado's effective 25 meter range is.

Does not handle changes in height well thus making it less useful if your opponent is standing above or below you.

C) Tends to lag behind in regards to aiming much like cleave does for 2hders. This often means firing a shot in the wrong direction.

D) actually doesn't do all that much damage compared to other AOEs.

Combined with its high cost that can rapidly drain the stamina of the cookie cutter spamnado builds this makes it less suitable for the average zerg scrub who has come to rely on 1 button to win skills.

Takllin · February 2016

Nerf Encase morph with the snare while your at it :P

RinaldoGandolphi · February 2016

Zheg wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

As i said before. I understand, I get it...no one wants a skill they use to be changed.

If Bombard is not changed, Let it not be said that someone spoke up many months agoabout how broken this skill is due to no immunity on soft CC.

Everyone here is missing the point:

Soft Cc like roots have Immunity Timer.
If I root you

You dodge

I can then root you again

this can go on over and over ad infinitium until one of us runs out of resources(most likely the one dodgeroller due to Increased Cost

If i cast Purge to purge root

You can immediately root me again

)

Lastly Purge is being changed and probably won't be a viable counter due to either increased cost or some sort of cooldown on how many times you can be purged in a set time frame.

the issue is there is no immunity on soft CC, Encase and Talons are extremly powerful right now...Does anyone here remember the Talon spam of 2014? Huge Range, Good damage, and DOT to boot? Bombard is the same thing....Bombard has been OP for months, just Steel Tornado is better that whys Bombard spam isn't as bad as Steel Tornado Spam is.

You want Bombard left as is? Fine then after dodgerolling you should be immune to roots and snares for 6 Secs just like your immune to hard Cc when you break free, otherwise Bombard and skills like it are every bit as broken as Spambush and the Gap closer garbage we currently have on live due to fact of no root immunity and snares stacking from multiple sources...guess what happens when your snared 100%?...you cna't move nor dodge, nor do anything at all yets its no apprent to the player...its so broken, anyone defending this i seriously question their motives.

Sorcs can still streak away when rooted (dumb...). While not optimal at all and starts to not work when there's more than one person spamming bombard on you, purge is available. If you're stam you have multiple skills available to you. Make friends with someone that can cast rapids? I agree bombard spam is annoying and already here, but I don't get the same chicken little feeling on this as I do about some of the dumber siege changes coming.

I actually agree that Sorc's shouldn't be able to Streak when rooted and i made my case about that too, but it was never changed...

I have tried to get alot of dumb broken mechanics in this game changed. I have won a few and lost a few. It is what it is. I'd rather see Bombard get adjusted leaving the skill itself in very good shape then to see ZOS drop the nerf hammer of epic proportions on it rendering it useless....

as always though...its out of my hands now...i fully believe every major skill killing nerf in this game could have been avoided if this community was willing to compromise and would have came forward to ZOS in meetings and offered reasonable changes instead of just clinging to their OP class or skill and refusing to budge on anything.

Most PVE folks use Acid Spray for DPS, changing Bombard to remove the root and adding Minor Fracture and Minor Breech would make it a unique skill that no other skill has, would passively help your whole team deal more damage, and its still going to snare...I think thats a great comprise that don't kill the skill off completely...if left as is...in the next update they will hammer that skill into useless because it will be the new thing people complains about.

1st it was Impulse
2nd it was Steel Tornado
Next it will be Bombard.

do you want Bombard to get the Impulse treatment? Do you want Steel Tornado to get the Impulse Treatment? of course not.

Then Comprise...ZOS has been very good at compromise when players are willing to step forth and show they are open to the ideas instead of clinging with both hands clenched tight and refusing to budge.

Leave it as is i'll just spam Purify on my Templar or Purge on my Sorc i don't care, but its still a broken skill with a doube CC that has no immunity timer.

nilldax · February 2016

Like mentioned Shuffle, Purg, Retreating are grear counred to it. Bombard doesnt have damage like Tornado. In most cases works as stopper for magicka based zergs. But noone said that Razor Caltrops snares you for 70% (IIRC one DKs skill too, however with smaller radius).
And yes, Bobmard requires some targeting from user. Its AoE attack, with its radius.
Anyway, soft CC was (ab)used and will be for a long time.

mr_wazzabi · February 2016

They just need to give root and snare immunity after a dodge roll. Simple fix without needing to nerf Bombard.

Recremen · February 2016

It's not being downplayed intentionally, it is a solid skill and the good groups are using it where appropriate. But you only really need a couple people using that when pushing on an enemy group, because otherwise your damage is suffering, so why bother with everyone slotting it? It's a solid skill literally only because of the root mechanic, taking that away is taking away everything good about it. I mean, who really wants a high-cost, narrow cone AoE that does low damage? That's like trying to take away the root from DK talons and pretending it's still a good skill.

Nifty2g · February 2016

bombard being a cone attack, changes to cp system as in physical mitigation
seems sort of ineffective to see a whole raid of bombard users like you see steel tornado.
i highly doubt it will be the next big thing maybe a few people using it in the zerg to root people but that's it i guess.

Takllin · February 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

bombard being a cone attack, changes to cp system as in physical mitigation
seems sort of ineffective to see a whole raid of bombard users like you see steel tornado.
i highly doubt it will be the next big thing maybe a few people using it in the zerg to root people but that's it i guess.

Yeah which already happens, I don't see much if any change. A big to do about nothing.

Kelleton · February 2016

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I think the real issue here is that they need to address CC and roots in general.

we have a winner

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

Alucardo wrote: »

I only use it for hosing down Nightblades, but hey, maybe if they made it less useful the cost of this ability should also be decreased, so sure. Remove the snare or something. You don't really need a root and snare on the same skill.

That's fine, explain Restraining Prison (Encase Morph). If Sorcs get this ability, why can't Bow users get something similar? I see no problem with giving snare + brief root. The problem is that turtle builds are no longer as viable as they use to be, and turtling has become very expensive. I do agree though that it seems as though snaring has gotten out of control in pvp lately, I'm just not sure its worth weakening the Bow skill line like this.

I am in agreement with others that other AoE should be more meaningful rather than weakening what exists. Additionally, I think AoE should somehow be made less meaningful (from the perspective of damage) in Cyrodiil. They really need to find a way to make Single Target damage more enticing to use in pvp. Some skills need adjustment like the first two skills in Dual Wield for instance.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

The damage on this ability is fine. Cost is also fine. With 7 medium and 8% cost reduction in champ points it still sits at a 2200 cost. That is decent. The issue is the resource management. No one has to worry about resources anymore. It is a problem with all skills not just one.

As for the root and snare....
You can purge snares both as a mag user and stam user. Also, immovable and immovable pots are a great counter. Because you dont want to use the counters does not mean it is OP. I also am one of the few that think steel tornado is fine. The issue is the lack of being able to reduce physical damage in champ tree. Once that is introduced it wont hit nearly as hard. Not to mention mag aoe will be more viable because people will start dispersing points into physical redcution and not just mag reduction.

Other aoe need to be buffed not the good/decent ones nerfed. The reason everyone runs around with tornado, and to a lesser extent bombard, is one becuase of champ tree favoring stam and becuase mag aoe were nerfed into the ground making them useless. When you take away all other aoe options ofcourse everyone is running the same one or two. Not to mention, tornado and bombard are really the only good stam aoe. SInce everyone is running stam because the champ tree favors that, you will see these two aoe more than any other.

Overall, introducing a champ tree passive for physical reduction buff some mag aoe a little you will see more diversity.

Last, you want them to nerf bow? really? That line needs work not a nerf. There are counters out there to your issues mentioned with bombard effects annd the champ tree and removal of softcaps is the reason for spmability. If you increase cost on this you have to for all spammabale abilities.

I know you can use Purge and other skills to counter snares and roots but those counters cost more then the skill. A ranged AOE root and snare that Bombard is for what it does is OP...it actually does very good damage. Also Immovable Pots give no immunity to Snares or Roots, Shuffle from the Medium Armor line and Forward Momentum on Two Handed Help to a degree and of course Purge, but they will do little to this being spammed on you.

Bombard is just another version of Ambush/Gap closers that locks people in place and can be spammed with no immunity. Its actually worse then the Dragonknight Talon spam of 2014, high damage inflicting AOE roots that are ranged with a snare is just OP its every bit as bad as Steel tornado.

It needs to be toned down before the TG goes live. Since there is no immunity on roots and snares, its just too much.

The problem is that Purge SHOULD deal with snares, but does not currently, so now we are left with the situation where we have to slot something like Forward Momentum or the like on our bars to solve perhaps the most annoying CC in the game.

dodgehopper_ESO · February 2016

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Im not here to debate this, im here to put this out there to ZOS. At the end of the day it will be their call, but its very easy to see where things will go if Bombard is left in its current state.

Just like I told them making changes to Detect Pots was a big mistake (Its now Elder Nightblades Online and Cloak is the biggest complaint here now)

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/182554/so-now-that-detect-pots-will-no-longer-work-against-cloak-in-1-7/p1

Bombard will have a much larger presense in group PVP once Steel Tornado is nerfed.

Sadly, removing the root from Bombard and replacing it with a Minor Armor Reduction actually gives it good group utility while keeping its damage and snare. An AOE cone spammable Root is OP, the snare and damage is just cheese. Removing the root and replacing it with something else isn't going to ruin the skill at all.

However, I have said my part on this...if this gets out of the PTS in its current form, Cyrodiil will be full of Bombard Spammers in groups just like groups are full of Steel tornado spammers now.....just like Cyrodiil is full of Nightblades now because of the nerfs to detect pots....its not hard to see where things go in this game.

I have said my part, now its up to ZOS to decide if they want more of the same(stack group spamming X AOE ability with a CC) or if they actually want to change the gameplay somewhat, the ball is in their court.

Detect pots at 40s made nb useless. The 10s detect time is just right. You have to be skillful in your use of detect pots, not run around with 100% detection 90% of the time.

See a nb gank your buddy and cloak, use a detect pot. He won't get away within 10s if you're a good player. 40s means you can keep eating the pots for your entire stay in cyrodiil with only a 20s cooldown of detection in between pots. Pretty much nb are a useless class if that was the case.

That really depends how your nb is played and used. You're still getting shadow barrier on activation (Major Ward+Resolve), Something like +8% max health just for slotting it (if memory serves), and a cleanse. I feel they went too far with the detect potions myself, and have just made it so using another skill like caltrops, bombard, or volley are better. I don't think it should give 80% up time, but 10 seconds is too low.