Class Balance (and Why It Will Never Happen)

Lylith · January 2016

and the neverending nerfing whine continues...

Valrien · January 2016

Therium104 wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Everyone seems to be whining about class balance. While some things do need to be buffed slightly (maybe some things brought down), I feel the need to state this: balance will never happen. It has the potential to happen, but it would be INCREDIBLY boring.

True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.

Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.

True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.

*puts on flameproof suit*

Lol. Another NB crying to avoid a nerf. It is coming buddy. Stop whining. NB will definately get Nerfed.

Look at my sig. The only character I have is a Sorcerer. L2Read

Whatzituyah · January 2016

Valrien wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Everyone seems to be whining about class balance. While some things do need to be buffed slightly (maybe some things brought down), I feel the need to state this: balance will never happen. It has the potential to happen, but it would be INCREDIBLY boring.

True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.

Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.

True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.

*puts on flameproof suit*

Lol. Another NB crying to avoid a nerf. It is coming buddy. Stop whining. NB will definately get Nerfed.

Look at my sig. The only character I have is a Sorcerer. L2Read

Its nice to see people only using one character its hard for me though.

Valrien · January 2016

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Everyone seems to be whining about class balance. While some things do need to be buffed slightly (maybe some things brought down), I feel the need to state this: balance will never happen. It has the potential to happen, but it would be INCREDIBLY boring.

True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.

Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.

True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.

*puts on flameproof suit*

Lol. Another NB crying to avoid a nerf. It is coming buddy. Stop whining. NB will definately get Nerfed.

Look at my sig. The only character I have is a Sorcerer. L2Read

Its nice to see people only using one character its hard for me though.

Yeah, I have all 8 slots filled but none of them are below level 15. I really can't bring myself to play anything except my Sorcerer.

Faulgor · January 2016

I disagree. While that would be balanced, it's usually not what people mean.

Using Street Fighter as an example, because that's an area where I'm more comfortable talking about this than ESO PvP:
Balance is not when everybody plays Ryu, it's when the variance of matchup favorability in the tier list is approaching 0. What does this mean? That every individual character has as many favorable as unfavorable matchups, or when measuring the magnitude, that their favorable matchups are as favorable to them as their unfavorable matchups are unfavorable.

For ESO, this would probably mean that every conceivable build can go up against any other and after all is said and done comes out 50/50 against the whole field of builds, even if they lose hard against some builds. Because builds in an RPG are much more difficult to quantify than characters in a fighting game, balance is some kind of chaotic strange attractor.

Now, would this be boring? It depends.
For one, it doesn't take away unique playstyles and builds at all. Akuma and Fei Long are vastly different, yet have a very balanced matchup. Also, generally speaking, the Street Fighter community would absolutely love to see more characters played in competitive tournaments, instead of them being neglected because of their sub-par tools. I can't remember the last time I saw Oni played anywhere, and he isn't even that bad.
On the other hand, imbalances in individual matchups make for great drama. Uphill battles, underdog fights and the like. This is an element some people would absolutely miss, and I agree. However, that's why you measure the variance, which gives each character or build room to have advantages and disadvantages.

The current problem is that there aren't sufficient counters to certain advantages, IMO.

Lysette · January 2016

There is the wrong idea of many, that every class would have to have equal opportunities regardless what combination of class and maxed out attribute you choose. But "play as you want" does not mean, that any such options would have to have equal opportunities, because where would be the point in "choice" if the outcome would be all the same in a different color. The whole point of classes and provided choice is to NOT BE EQUAL and to NOT BE BALANCED, but to have strengths and weaknesses. But it means as well, that if you are choosing a combination, which is weird, you will have to live with this weirdness. It was your choice, you cannot expect, that every weird choice you make, will lead to a nerf/buff of some other class, which players maxed out for that specific play style by avoiding weird choices which do not match that class or race.

A necessity for balance would just be given, if there is a class/attribute/skill/race combination, which would lead to a god-like character, who could survive all and everything and kill everything with ease - this would be imbalance. But all other is not. You should as well forget about "fairness" or "sportsmanship" in ESO PvP - the theme of PvP in ESO is "war", and war is always unfair, the whole point of starting a war is that the starting faction feels a lot more powerful than the opponent.

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO · January 2016

The whole argument of balance = everything must be the same is superficial and totally flawed.

Nature, without mans intervention is the definition of balance. Every polarity has a niche and is allowed to express itself. Nature is built around the principal of infinite diversification. If it didn't operative that way, or rather operated in accordance with mans idea of balance meaning everything must be the same, no life would exist.

Lysette · January 2016

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

The whole argument of balance = everything must be the same is superficial and totally flawed.

Nature, without mans intervention is the definition of balance. Every polarity has a niche and is allowed to express itself. Nature is built around the principal of infinite diversification. If it didn't operative that way, or rather operated in accordance with mans idea of balance meaning everything must be the same, no life would exist.

Very good point, it matches somewhat what I said before.

Valrien · January 2016

iamnotweakrwb17_ESO wrote: »

The whole argument of balance = everything must be the same is superficial and totally flawed.

Nature, without mans intervention is the definition of balance. Every polarity has a niche and is allowed to express itself. Nature is built around the principal of infinite diversification. If it didn't operative that way, or rather operated in accordance with mans idea of balance meaning everything must be the same, no life would exist.

Nature too OP, plz nerf.

Lysette · January 2016

It there is not a god-like combination, it will balance out by itself. Think of what would happen, if nearly all would choose to be nightblades. This creates a situation, where someone willing to fight nightblades can thrieve, because he can cater his playstyle now to counter and beat nightblades, because that is what he will encounter and pretty much nothing else. He will make a build, which is making use of the weaknesses of nightblades and by this he might be superior - just because he has a way to basically beat "all" (because they would be all nightblades). Soon this new class would become favorable and the former "top species" of nightblades would cease to be on top. This is all balancing out by itself, if left alone, it will adapt.

ContraTempo · January 2016

I see this same argument over and over. From what I can tell it's mostly about 1v1 PvP. Yeah, if you have some classes that are better at tank, heal, or AOE:
1. Going against a DPS class may not work out for you.
2. If they can't take the tank or healer down fast, it will probably take a long time. Then they will probably be frustrated and come gripe about it here.

Build for what you plan to do. I.E. if you build a healer, go out with a group. You are support. If you don't want to be support, build something else.

If you think NB is the best thing ever, BUILD ONE. Play that. Enjoy. BUT don't come whining when you get taken down by a group that includes a tank and a healer saying zerg, zerg, zerg. Don't tell us how the tank needs to be nerfed because your amazing assassin couldn't one-shot that one. That's what groups do: take down those too tough to handle 1v1.

Iove · January 2016

Junkogen wrote: »

nicab16_ESO wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

Haha. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ha.

But that templar surely can never beat you. Lol. People who 1v1 a healer and then complain that it heals ... Aw, hell. Just let them delete the class, can't possibly nerf it more.

Therein lies the heart of a lot of the whining. People don't really pay attention to the fact that a certain build can't kill them, but they fixate on not being able to kill them. To me, that's balanced. Very hard to kill, but not putting out much damage.

A way to appease the nerf herders might be to award AP to people when a target runs away after engaging. I don't know how the mechanics would work, but it might cut down on the exaggerated claims of overpowered classes and cries for nerfs.

Lol you don't understand that if me on a templar can't kill you, that means eventually you'll kill me... How is that balanced?

Derra · January 2016

Valrien wrote: »

Everyone seems to be whining about class balance. While some things do need to be buffed slightly (maybe some things brought down), I feel the need to state this: balance will never happen. It has the potential to happen, but it would be INCREDIBLY boring.

True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.

Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.

True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.

*puts on flameproof suit*

Agreed - however it´s too extreme in eso.
Flavor of the month used to be the term for what you´re describing. In eso it´s flavor of the year 2014 for DK, flavor of the year 2015 for NB and half a year for sorcs.

The amount of time it takes for the developers to work on things that are obviously overperforming when compared to everything else is too damn long.

lathbury · February 2016

Dubhliam · February 2016

Ffastyl wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Gotta love this channel.

I have spent countless hours watching Extra Credits.

On topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w

Very relevant to veteran Maelstrom Arena also.

Rune_Relic · February 2016

The lack of balance is simply because the original class concept is FUBAR'd
A Class was a preset selection of attributes.
Those attributes enhanced the effect of some skills and abilities and dampened the effect of others.

That link has been completely lost and abused so badly they work independantly.
Until that class=attribute relationship is restored...balance will always be broken.

danno8 · February 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The lack of balance is simply because the original class concept is FUBAR'd
A Class was a preset selection of attributes.
Those attributes enhanced the effect of some skills and abilities and dampened the effect of others.

That link has been completely lost and abused so badly they work independantly.
Until that class=attribute relationship is restored...balance will always be broken.

Yah, I'm fine with a paper-rock-scissors kind of thing, but the problem is ZoS is trying to make clear healer/tank/DPS classes while also trying to make everyone able to do everything.

They are stuck in a middle no-mans-land of balance where the best DPS also have the best defenses, but the dedicated healers have no DPS at all, but tanks on some classes can have strong DPS, while other classes can't.

It's just a mess.

Faulgor · February 2016

danno8 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The lack of balance is simply because the original class concept is FUBAR'd
A Class was a preset selection of attributes.
Those attributes enhanced the effect of some skills and abilities and dampened the effect of others.

That link has been completely lost and abused so badly they work independantly.
Until that class=attribute relationship is restored...balance will always be broken.

Yah, I'm fine with a paper-rock-scissors kind of thing, but the problem is ZoS is trying to make clear healer/tank/DPS classes while also trying to make everyone able to do everything.

They are stuck in a middle no-mans-land of balance where the best DPS also have the best defenses, but the dedicated healers have no DPS at all, but tanks on some classes can have strong DPS, while other classes can't.

It's just a mess.

The fact that higher weapon damage results in higher heals with Vigor just leaves me befuddled.

Shameless plug for my concept to add more attributes to ESO and streamline the buff system: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240195/streamlining-eso

Rune_Relic · February 2016

danno8 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

The lack of balance is simply because the original class concept is FUBAR'd
A Class was a preset selection of attributes.
Those attributes enhanced the effect of some skills and abilities and dampened the effect of others.

That link has been completely lost and abused so badly they work independantly.
Until that class=attribute relationship is restored...balance will always be broken.

Yah, I'm fine with a paper-rock-scissors kind of thing, but the problem is ZoS is trying to make clear healer/tank/DPS classes while also trying to make everyone able to do everything.

They are stuck in a middle no-mans-land of balance where the best DPS also have the best defenses, but the dedicated healers have no DPS at all, but tanks on some classes can have strong DPS, while other classes can't.

It's just a mess.

Pretty much bang on from my perspective. Agree 100%

Elara_Northwind · February 2016

A friend and I went to non-vet PvP last night with our lvl13 nb's (We both main templars) We were destroying groups of lvl40+ players without an issue, it was so much fun

and SO much easier than playing my magicka templar. I remember when she used to be able to PvP, now she has to stay in a group, or just hide out in the sewers looking for easy kills. My poor templar

The huge gap between these two classes is very noticeable, and although there may not ever be true balance, the gap needs to be smaller at least...

Artjuh90 · February 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Oh look more Nerf NB talk.

Seriously. Stop blaming good players and their classes for your lack of skill.

No ones blaming good players, you can just notice the difference when you change to a nb.7

It's easy to get good sustain,crit, dmg, resistance etc...

and a sorc does what? ;D

DRXHarbinger · February 2016

If everything was equal all that would matter is who hits who first. What ZOS should do is a campaign where you can use NO spells at all only weapon attacks. OT would shut the QQ lot right up. There would no cloak and no stupid op other crap. Just WB, Clench, ST and Focused Aim and everyone would be ....largely ..happy.

WalkingLegacy · February 2016

The problem is they are trying to balance a game based on single player beliefs. They don't know how to make an MMO game but hopefully they're learning from some veterans out there and not the forums.

eliisra · February 2016

Class balance doesn't mean that everyone is exactly the same and with equal tools in every single situation. This is some belief coming from people used to single player games.

Class balance means that everyone has the same potential to enjoy, compete and progress content wise. How it's done and with what class defining skills, is irrelevant.

Balance depends on what PvP content is available in a game. If endgame PvP is competitive group/guild fights with rewards, like in many Asian MMO's, than being good 1v1 isn't important. One class might suck 1v1 and it's perfectly acceptable, because it has the most powerful AoE's in the game, able to burn and cc entire raids during a guild war or arena type fight.

But here in ESO there's no competitive endgame PvP for groups or guilds. Cyrodiil has no special group objectives with nice reward or leading to progression. Balance here is about classes ability to manoeuvre well in Cyrodiil and IC, making AP, stones and engaging in fun fights. Being individual strong, able to roam and fight 1v1 does matter in this specific game.

ESO fails terrible at it. Every major patch brings new overlords and everyone jumps ship to the new fotm. Unlike OP I dont find it very interesting or exciting, when everyone plays the same class&spec's lol.

Tdroid · February 2016

I don't think that perfect balance can be achieved, but there is plenty to balance in the game as it is even with that in mind. A few things that come to mind are:

Stamina builds for PvE in general

Templars with their broken abilities

Having at least 1 defense(Major Evasion or resistance is fine, we don't need both since we can compliment the one we lack with armor skills), 1 mobility and 1 heal with stamina morph in each class.

Having a "primary" attack ability with stamina morph in each class(like Nightblades have with Surprise Attack) so Dragonknights and Sorcs aren't so dependent on weapon skills. Having the weapons skills available and usable is great. Having them be the only real option is not.

And, in my humble opinion, reduce the advantage given by Champion Points a bit. 25% is quite a lot. Why not a max value of 15%? Still worth to take, but not quite as punishing for new players.

Khaos_Bane · February 2016

You don't need to have the exact same abilities to have a more balanced game.

Tdroid · February 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

You don't need to have the exact same abilities to have a more balanced game.

No, and I didn't say the exact same abilities. I want the classes to all have defense, mobility, heals and damage available to both magicka and stamina so they aren't dependent on non-class skills to do the most basic things.

Maybe I am crazy, but I think it is a failure of class-design when a build's core is non-class skills and class skills are typically only support. I like the option between going for Surprise Attack or Wrecking Blow(for example) on my stamblade(not a PvP character, so, please people, don't crusify me for that one :P ), and I don't like not having such a choice on my stamknight. I like having Double Take for general defense and mobility on my stamblade, and I dislike not having a Major Expedition skill for my stamknight and stamplar. I like having Greeen Dragon Blood and Rally on my stamknight as emergency healing and I dislike my stamblade not having a choice.

I'm not saying "give Dark Cloak to everyone" or "give surprise attack to everyone". I'm saying I want the basics to be covered within the class(for example, I think it is fair that the Nightblade doesn't have a spell for the Major buff to spell resist and armor because they have a class version of Major Evasion, and vice versa for the Dragonknight/Sorc). I don't think it is fair that only Dragonknight(and possibly Sorc, not sure how Dark Enchange worked out off the top of my head) has a universally useful class heal(% based makes up for lack in spellpower) and that only Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility.

Khaos_Bane · February 2016

Tdroid wrote: »

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

You don't need to have the exact same abilities to have a more balanced game.

No, and I didn't say the exact same abilities. I want the classes to all have defense, mobility, heals and damage available to both magicka and stamina so they aren't dependent on non-class skills to do the most basic things.

Maybe I am crazy, but I think it is a failure of class-design when a build's core is non-class skills and class skills are typically only support. I like the option between going for Surprise Attack or Wrecking Blow(for example) on my stamblade(not a PvP character, so, please people, don't crusify me for that one :P ), and I don't like not having such a choice on my stamknight. I like having Double Take for general defense and mobility on my stamblade, and I dislike not having a Major Expedition skill for my stamknight and stamplar. I like having Greeen Dragon Blood and Rally on my stamknight as emergency healing and I dislike my stamblade not having a choice.

I'm not saying "give Dark Cloak to everyone" or "give surprise attack to everyone". I'm saying I want the basics to be covered within the class(for example, I think it is fair that the Nightblade doesn't have a spell for the Major buff to spell resist and armor because they have a class version of Major Evasion, and vice versa for the Dragonknight/Sorc). I don't think it is fair that only Dragonknight(and possibly Sorc, not sure how Dark Enchange worked out off the top of my head) has a universally useful class heal(% based makes up for lack in spellpower) and that only Nightblades and Sorcs have mobility.

First, I agree with you on the bolded line. They did fail on class design, especially since the soft caps and hybrids were obliterated. They did fail at game design, and especially when they removed softcaps and made people build off of STA or MAG. ZoS completely failed here ! I like the class definition and class skills, and it's usually why I have pick MAG builds. ZoS has been adding more STA based skills which is fine, but this should have been seen far ahead of removing the soft caps.

Basically, I am saying is that I don't want to see a similarity between class skills. For example, not every class should have a self heal of their own.

Tdroid · February 2016

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

Basically, I am saying is that I don't want to see a similarity between class skills. For example, not every class should have a self heal of their own.

Why not? I am not saying all heals should behave the same, I am saying all classes should have all basic tools for a character (defense, heal, damage and mobility) within the class.

An example of what I am talking about is Spiked Armor and Lightning Form. They both have the same basis, giving a Major buff to defense, but they still behave very differently. Lightning Form gives a short speed boost and does AOE damage, in addition to its synergy with passive Sorc skills(Expert Mage, Disintigrate etc). Spiked Armor gives the same Major defense buff, but has a melee-based reflect damage effect and a different synergy because of class passives. I am sure most would agree that there is enough significant gameplay difference between Lightning Form and Spiked Armor to justify having both skills in the game, even though both give the same defense buff.