Class Balance (and Why It Will Never Happen)

leepalmer95

Vekoeros wrote: »

I think the game is fairly balanced already each class has its advantages and disadvantages, that's the entire point of having a class system anyway.

Apart from nb's have a lot of advantages and nearly no disadvantages. Templar and dk's have been bugged and nerfed for a while now. Sorc received some nerfs but are still playable and do well.

Nb's have only been buffed.

You should spend more time playing the game first though and play each character before you decide your view point.

Therium104

Vekoeros wrote: »

I think the game is fairly balanced already each class has its advantages and disadvantages, that's the entire point of having a class system anyway.

Lol. Magic DK needs a buff. NB needs major and comprehensive NERF to balance pvp. I know for some reason it makes sense to you...... to kill a player by spamming one or two abilities and no skill but for the rest of us... we just want a balanced game.

Vekoeros

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Vekoeros wrote: »

I think the game is fairly balanced already each class has its advantages and disadvantages, that's the entire point of having a class system anyway.

Apart from nb's have a lot of advantages and nearly no disadvantages. Templar and dk's have been bugged and nerfed for a while now. Sorc received some nerfs but are still playable and do well.

Nb's have only been buffed.

You should spend more time playing the game first though and play each character before you decide your view point.

Yes because NB's have high survivability, oh no I got attacked from stealth and then they disappeared on me. OH WAIT that's the point of a stealth class, seems more like a common sense L2P issue then a valid argument because even siphon NB'S still don't have massive survivability, if you knew how to properly build and play your class you wouldn't have a problem.


Don't get me wrong fix the bugged parts of all classes but don't sit there crying about how every other class is underpowered,
A good player on a DK is going to survive they have good tanking abilities. Templars are going to be able to survive because they have great healing abilities. Its the same with all classes they all serve their purpose just fine,maybe you should consider a thought fully and pull your own personal bias out before passing judgment on other people.

Vekoeros

Therium104 wrote: »

Vekoeros wrote: »

I think the game is fairly balanced already each class has its advantages and disadvantages, that's the entire point of having a class system anyway.

Lol. Magic DK needs a buff. NB needs major and comprehensive NERF to balance pvp. I know for some reason it makes sense to you...... to kill a player by spamming one or two abilities and no skill but for the rest of us... we just want a balanced game.

Why is it always people talking about other classes needing a nerf/buff because someone spams the same moves over and over that's not a game issue that's a player issue your not really looking for a better class you need to be looking for better type of player.

RoyJade

NB don't need any nerf. Perhaps fear should be adjusted (faster response / CC break, CC immunity at the end of the effect), but no more. The empower buff can be adjusted too, but not just for ambush.
No, NB are finally fine in pvp. They can tank, they can dps, they can heal, they have a unique feeling, they are nearly perfect. No we just need the other classes to be able to have a similar feeling. Most of them already have a shining spot (magicka sorc tank-dps-mobility, stamina DK aoe-cc burster, templar tank-healer), but it's not enough.

Therium104

Vekoeros wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Vekoeros wrote: »

I think the game is fairly balanced already each class has its advantages and disadvantages, that's the entire point of having a class system anyway.

Lol. Magic DK needs a buff. NB needs major and comprehensive NERF to balance pvp. I know for some reason it makes sense to you...... to kill a player by spamming one or two abilities and no skill but for the rest of us... we just want a balanced game.

Why is it always people talking about other classes needing a nerf/buff because someone spams the same moves over and over that's not a game issue that's a player issue your not really looking for a better class you need to be looking for better type of player.

Lol what? NB are a no skill overpowered class. They need a nerf just like DK did at launch. Crying about it will not change the inevitable.

leepalmer95

RoyJade wrote: »

NB don't need any nerf. Perhaps fear should be adjusted (faster response / CC break, CC immunity at the end of the effect), but no more. The empower buff can be adjusted too, but not just for ambush.
No, NB are finally fine in pvp. They can tank, they can dps, they can heal, they have a unique feeling, they are nearly perfect. No we just need the other classes to be able to have a similar feeling. Most of them already have a shining spot (magicka sorc tank-dps-mobility, stamina DK aoe-cc burster, templar tank-healer), but it's not enough.

Since when was the 'rogue' type character mean't to effectively do everything in the game.

How is dk a aoe - cc burster? The stam dk is pretty much 2h user, the mag dk is useless.

Templar have heals thats it. Most skills are broken, don't do near the amount of dmg of nb's or such and can't tank as effectively as any of them.

Sorc is good for a mag sorc only, stam sorc is a 2h user.

RoyJade

Stam Dk has leap, who is a very powerful aoe+CC+ heavy damage low cost ultimate. Like mag DK, he need a form of boost for his dots, I agree that he is not perfect (and mag Dk indeed need a boost).

I just say "tank and heal" for templar, I know nearly all these offensives skills are buggued (I see it every time I try to be aggressive with my two templars). BoL and defensive passives aren't, so a sword and board healer templar is good. And with his very high-speed rez, he still is really useful but in only one purpose : healer in a group.

Stam sorc are good but not great, they miss something else. They rely too much to weapon skill, I think.

And one of the greatest thing in this game is the "playing as you want". All classes definitely need to be able to do nearly everything, but not at the same time. NB can be stealth-based dps, burster, tank and heal, but not all at the same time. Actually, they are the only one who can efficiently fulfill all type of gameplay in pvp. Sorctank, bursterplar, dot-based DK, all these gameplay must be efficient in Cyrodiil. If we need a change (and we definitely need one), it's a buff for these one and some other thing. But no nerf.

Therium104

RoyJade wrote: »

Stam Dk has leap, who is a very powerful aoe+CC+ heavy damage low cost ultimate. Like mag DK, he need a form of boost for his dots, I agree that he is not perfect (and mag Dk indeed need a boost).

I just say "tank and heal" for templar, I know nearly all these offensives skills are buggued (I see it every time I try to be aggressive with my two templars). BoL and defensive passives aren't, so a sword and board healer templar is good. And with his very high-speed rez, he still is really useful but in only one purpose : healer in a group.

Stam sorc are good but not great, they miss something else. They rely too much to weapon skill, I think.

And one of the greatest thing in this game is the "playing as you want". All classes definitely need to be able to do nearly everything, but not at the same time. NB can be stealth-based dps, burster, tank and heal, but not all at the same time. Actually, they are the only one who can efficiently fulfill all type of gameplay in pvp. Sorctank, bursterplar, dot-based DK, all these gameplay must be efficient in Cyrodiil. If we need a change (and we definitely need one), it's a buff for these one and some other thing. But no nerf.

I hate to break it to you but NB will need to get a nerf. They are just to overpowered and broken. Lets fix what is broken and buff what is neccessary.

Artjuh90

Sausage wrote: »

Finally someone gets it, someone who played Rift with balanced PVP about 15 month, its not so fun as people might think, its actually boring. Id prefer to keep ESO as mass/zerg PVP game and because of it, it gives more slack for balance issue and making it fun. Im gonna be extremely unhappy if they go with balanced PVP and from business point of view it sounds bad idea too, theres tons of balanced PVP games for those who want those, Zen should improve Cyrodil before adding Arenas, because thats where the money is.

this is so true. in arena's different builds are going to be actually demolishing builds that aren't good right now. thinks like a magicka DK is so strong in a 1 v 1 because you have sustain and you wont be burst down. sure you don't burn down the others as fast as other a other class can do (main reason it suffers in cyro were the meta is all about bursting someone down). stam NB will suck in that situation. because you know if the NB cloaks just block untill it shows up. if he cloak -> fear (and you fear is fixed and you can break free right away) and he cloaks again you know he's OOM and he won't be able to cloak again

RoyJade

Some things need a nerf. Fear (but all fear), the empower buff (spambush, I calling you), the gap closer root (spambush again, but all gap closer too), but I don't think NB really need a nerf. If we boost all other classes and speciality to a competitive level, NB won't be as problematic as now, would be ?


I mean, I remember the beginning, when one vampire DK can tank-heal-dps and kill a good zerg alone. Actually NB aren't overpowered like DK was, they just are very strong. The game is far more balanced than ever, we just need a few more adjustment and it will be nearly perfect.
And honestly… nerfing thing is not the solution. And when ZOS nerf, it's a heavy nerf (remember mag DK, or absorption shield for everyone other than sorc).

Ffastyl

Vekoeros wrote: »

Therium104 wrote: »

Vekoeros wrote: »

I think the game is fairly balanced already each class has its advantages and disadvantages, that's the entire point of having a class system anyway.

Lol. Magic DK needs a buff. NB needs major and comprehensive NERF to balance pvp. I know for some reason it makes sense to you...... to kill a player by spamming one or two abilities and no skill but for the rest of us... we just want a balanced game.

Why is it always people talking about other classes needing a nerf/buff because someone spams the same moves over and over that's not a game issue that's a player issue your not really looking for a better class you need to be looking for better type of player.

This is also a systemic issue with how buffs have been tweaked. I give a more detailed analysis in my first post on Wrobel's class balance thread; many powerful abilities are self-buffing. The most well known example is Wrecking Blow.

Prior to Update 6, buffs were not standardized and stacked. Abilities that buffed the next attack did so by adding Weapon/Spell Damage for the calculation of that attack and had the condition it not be the same attack that applied the damage buff (i.e. "Does not apply to Uppercut and morphs."). This buff was attached mostly to abilities that already hit hard, so the change to Empower, removing the condition, promoted using the same attack consecutively as a self-buffing attack.

This applies to Ambush and Surprise Attack, the main offenders in one-button-spam from Nightblades. Ambush grants Empower, the same as Wrecking Blow. Surprise Attack applies Major Fracture (Physical Resistance debuff) and deals physical damage.

Fixing things like Ambush and Wrecking Blow spam require not tweaking the abilities but the Empower buff that promotes spam. Surprise Attack scales well for a Stamina based attack, something that cannot be said for many Stamina based abilities (In Update 5 Stamina based attacks had their base damage increased but Magicka based heavy hitters scale extremely well with Spell Damage and Max Magicka, allowing them to surpass Stamina abilities at the Damage values seen today). Reducing Surprise Attack's scalar multiplier or base damage will be a bandaid fix that puts Magicka DPS slightly ahead of Stamina DPS, like it was back at game launch in 2014.

So how do we address Surprise Attack, a skill that's slightly but notably above the power curve? Reducing the maximum possible Weapon/Spell Damage and Max stats achievable and/or decoupling them from all but damage dealing abilities will resolve the overarching issue of Magicka DPS surpassing Stamina DPS by not allowing Spell Damage and Max Magicka to reach the point where the scalar benefit outstrips the base damage benefit of Stamina abilities. It will also partially address the glass cannon meta by reducing returns for investing in Damage (active defense still needs to be increased to approximately Update 5 power). Smaller tweaks that address Surprise Attack specifically are changing the damage type to Magic so it no longer benefits from Major Fracture (still scales with Weapon Damage and Max Stamina) or giving Major Fracture the same conditional as the stun: must attack from stealth or invisibility. These changes address the self-buffing nature of Surprise Attack but also slightly reduce Stamina DPS, unfortunately.

Also consider the ability Puncture (Ransack / Pierce Armor): it deals 20 - 30% less damage than Surprise Attack (6518 vs 8876 at VR16; 1878 vs 2302 at Lv39), applies Major Fracture (self-buffing) and costs 20 - 30% less Stamina (1188 vs 1508 at VR16; 918 vs 1296 at Lv39). Why are we not also calling this ability out?

Artjuh90

RoyJade wrote: »

Some things need a nerf. Fear (but all fear), the empower buff (spambush, I calling you), the gap closer root (spambush again, but all gap closer too), but I don't think NB really need a nerf. If we boost all other classes and speciality to a competitive level, NB won't be as problematic as now, would be ?

part of the problem people have with they NB is actually their own fault to be honest. NB is an assassin class that burst down enemy's. people go allout min/max builds which makes life actually easyer for NB. Do i say NB doesn't have issues? No they do. i think best change ZoS should change to NB is fear. This is because of 2 reasons: cc breaking fear isn't working with a abilty which can be cast quite easly + it doesn't really affect PvE. Because stam Nb isn't doing that great in PvE. if they make a change to cloak they *** with PvE again. Which can lead to a inbalance in a different area of the game. and yes for some people this is hard to grasp somehow but this game has more then just PvP

smacx250

I agree. Not new, but still true:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

dday3six

Ffastyl wrote: »

Also consider the ability Puncture (Ransack / Pierce Armor): it deals 20 - 30% less damage than Surprise Attack (6518 vs 8876 at VR16; 1878 vs 2302 at Lv39), applies Major Fracture (self-buffing) and costs 20 - 30% less Stamina (1188 vs 1508 at VR16; 918 vs 1296 at Lv39). Why are we not also calling this ability out?

Honestly, I think that's because it's not about actually achieving balance. Rather about punishing fotm. I think once the new "it" build or class comes along, those sort of people will move on to trying to punish them instead.

Ffastyl

smacx250 wrote: »

I agree. Not new, but still true:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Ffastyl wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

Great minds think alike?

Tryxus

dday3six wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

Also consider the ability Puncture (Ransack / Pierce Armor): it deals 20 - 30% less damage than Surprise Attack (6518 vs 8876 at VR16; 1878 vs 2302 at Lv39), applies Major Fracture (self-buffing) and costs 20 - 30% less Stamina (1188 vs 1508 at VR16; 918 vs 1296 at Lv39). Why are we not also calling this ability out?

Honestly, I think that's because it's not about actually achieving balance. Rather about punishing fotm. I think once the new "it" build or class comes along, those sort of people will move on to trying to punish them instead.

Too true

Many ppl here wish to see NB completely nerfed whereas in fact, the true problem lies with only 2 moves that can easliy be abused and spammed. And since it's easier to complain rather than to adapt (or in some cases a dislike of the class/playstyle), ppl prefer to go too far in an attempt to completely nerf them

And completely nerfing a class is NOT the answer: the current status of the DK is proof of that. ZOS listened to the nerf-sayers and eventually overnerfed the DK, allowing the next FOTM to take their place

Some skills need adjusting, that is true. But completely nerfing a class will not balance out everything with the next update. And at this point with a class in shambles (Templar), I'd prefer to get ZOS to spend all their time fixing them up and buffing them too instead of figuring out how to overnerf the NB.

Swampfox

Before considering the so called Class Balance i would have thought fixing what is broken FIRST would be the priority

I have never believed the Rock Paper Scissors Theory as Class Balance like so many do

Having the ability to counter what is thrown at you is what counts

In ESO managing your resources properly allows you to do just that

Bad resource management is the fault of the player not the game

But when skills are still broken all you can do is compromise

We can only hope that the next 2 ESO Live shows does address what most of us players have been concerned about for ages

Korah_Eaglecry

Oh look more Nerf NB talk.

Seriously. Stop blaming good players and their classes for your lack of skill.

leepalmer95

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Oh look more Nerf NB talk.

Seriously. Stop blaming good players and their classes for your lack of skill.

No ones blaming good players, you can just notice the difference when you change to a nb.7

It's easy to get good sustain,crit, dmg, resistance etc...

Korah_Eaglecry

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Oh look more Nerf NB talk.

Seriously. Stop blaming good players and their classes for your lack of skill.

No ones blaming good players, you can just notice the difference when you change to a nb.7

It's easy to get good sustain,crit, dmg, resistance etc...

LMAO way to include everything every other class can do as well.

leepalmer95

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Oh look more Nerf NB talk.

Seriously. Stop blaming good players and their classes for your lack of skill.

No ones blaming good players, you can just notice the difference when you change to a nb.7

It's easy to get good sustain,crit, dmg, resistance etc...

LMAO way to include everything every other class can do as well.

But i wasn't talking about other classes?

LMAO!!!!!

But seriously go compare the passives between the classes, then the actual skills and you see why everyone is rolling nb's.

Egonieser

I am fine with class balance/imbalance personally. It's the lag and buggy skills that annoys me the most, and rightfully so.
If ZoS fixed all the bugs and lag, the unbalanced classes perhaps wouldn't seem so unbalanced anymore and work more as intended™

willymchilybily

I think balance is not the same as equality. And I don't feel the original post despite its good point realises this. I don't want a cloak on my DK or a shield on my nb, I want to be unique,

but I also want a balance where rock beats scissors, scissors beats paper, and paper beats rock. The balance exists in the larger picture not some 1v1 microcosm

But when you blunt the scissors to the point it can't cut paper, then the system falls down. There is no downside to being paper and no balance. And what seems to elude most people is you fix it by giving scissor back its edge, even if every forum post is asking for a nerf to paper.

Probably took the analogy a bit far.

xXNesTXx

Valrien wrote: »

Everyone seems to be whining about class balance. While some things do need to be buffed slightly (maybe some things brought down), I feel the need to state this: balance will never happen. It has the potential to happen, but it would be INCREDIBLY boring.

True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.

Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.

True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.

*puts on flameproof suit*

So....you feel bad when you kill a sorc or DK then?

Maybe I am a rare guy, but... always when I not die....I feel good.. anyways .... when I feel really good, is when I can kill some specific "hard to kill" players... classes are totally irrelevant for me....

Junkogen

nicab16_ESO wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

Haha. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ha.

But that templar surely can never beat you. Lol. People who 1v1 a healer and then complain that it heals ... Aw, hell. Just let them delete the class, can't possibly nerf it more.

Therein lies the heart of a lot of the whining. People don't really pay attention to the fact that a certain build can't kill them, but they fixate on not being able to kill them. To me, that's balanced. Very hard to kill, but not putting out much damage.

A way to appease the nerf herders might be to award AP to people when a target runs away after engaging. I don't know how the mechanics would work, but it might cut down on the exaggerated claims of overpowered classes and cries for nerfs.

leepalmer95

Junkogen wrote: »

nicab16_ESO wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

Haha. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ha.

But that templar surely can never beat you. Lol. People who 1v1 a healer and then complain that it heals ... Aw, hell. Just let them delete the class, can't possibly nerf it more.

Therein lies the heart of a lot of the whining. People don't really pay attention to the fact that a certain build can't kill them, but they fixate on not being able to kill them. To me, that's balanced. Very hard to kill, but not putting out much damage.

A way to appease the nerf herders might be to award AP to people when a target runs away after engaging. I don't know how the mechanics would work, but it might cut down on the exaggerated claims of overpowered classes and cries for nerfs.

Never heard about anyone complaining that they couldn't kill some and that they was op.... it's more about the fact nb's 3 hit people and kill within 2 seconds, then cloak. Or the fact there at a disadvantage and just cloak away.

Junkogen

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Junkogen wrote: »

nicab16_ESO wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Valrien wrote: »

Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?

Haha. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Ha.

But that templar surely can never beat you. Lol. People who 1v1 a healer and then complain that it heals ... Aw, hell. Just let them delete the class, can't possibly nerf it more.

Therein lies the heart of a lot of the whining. People don't really pay attention to the fact that a certain build can't kill them, but they fixate on not being able to kill them. To me, that's balanced. Very hard to kill, but not putting out much damage.

A way to appease the nerf herders might be to award AP to people when a target runs away after engaging. I don't know how the mechanics would work, but it might cut down on the exaggerated claims of overpowered classes and cries for nerfs.

Never heard about anyone complaining that they couldn't kill some and that they was op.... it's more about the fact nb's 3 hit people and kill within 2 seconds, then cloak. Or the fact there at a disadvantage and just cloak away.

This is what I'm talking about.

xXNesTXx

Therium104 wrote: »

Lol. Another NB crying to avoid a nerf. It is coming buddy. Stop whining. NB will definately get Nerfed.

It's curious, a guy who only claims nerfs in the all threads without any intelligent argument to defend it, talking about crying....

Well, don't worry honey, if NB definitely gets a nerf, the most part of the actual NB players, in a few days can found the way to continue killing, or even, switch to another classes, because good players are adaptive...however, people like you and another forum warriors, with a serious lack of skill only can stay here, claiming for another nerf for the next "OP class"

Ffastyl

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Never heard about anyone complaining that they couldn't kill some and that they was op.... it's more about the fact nb's 3 hit people and kill within 2 seconds, then cloak.

Part of the glass cannon meta. What happens when 15k HP and 30k DPS meets 15k HP and 30k DPS?