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Class Balance (and Why It Will Never Happen)
Valrien
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Everyone seems to be whining about class balance. While some things do need to be buffed slightly (maybe some things brought down), I feel the need to state this: balance will never happen. It has the potential to happen, but it would be INCREDIBLY boring.
True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.
Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?
All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.
True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.
*puts on flameproof suit*
Edited by Valrien on January 30, 2016 4:47AM True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.
Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?
All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.
True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.
*puts on flameproof suit*
Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)
Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake
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bikerangelo✭✭✭✭✭
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I think once I get abilities that actually work (toppling charge), I'll warm up to this idea a bit more.1 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭bikerangelo wrote: »
I think once I get abilities that actually work (toppling charge), I'll warm up to this idea a bit more.
Yeah, certain broken abilities still need to be fixed.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake1 -
Jura23✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yeah. Balance will not happen, I know.
So lets start with fixing skills so they are at least functional as intended.Edited by Jura23 on January 30, 2016 6:02PMGeorgion - Bosmer/Templar - PC/EU3 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's more balanced than people think. They're just thinking of it like a Magic deck, where black plays a card and then white has five minutes to choose what card to play back. Or red spends an hour picking out a fire spell just for blue to counter it in two seconds.
It's much faster pace in a video game. If you're fighting NBs, you need your detection items and abilities queued and ready. If you're fighting a templar, you need to be able to sustain longer than he can or just flee. For sorcerer you need sustain and multi-target abilities. For DK you just need to not stand in one place for too long.
Nobody strategizes anymore. They want to go with their one build and expect it to be great against everything. Not going to happen. You're going to be stronger against some builds and weaker against others. That's what true balance is. Not design equality. Counter-measures. Balance is what the individual does planning against multiple types of threats. But you can't plan for them all, so you will get wrecked by something. You will always have a weakness.signing off11 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There doesn't have to be 'true' balance but there should be some balance, i always understand that there will be some build/class stronger than other but it should only be slight and not the massive gap current pvp is.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...3 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?
Haha. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
Ha.2 -
Iove✭✭✭✭
But that templar surely can never beat you. Lol. People who 1v1 a healer and then complain that it heals ... Aw, hell. Just let them delete the class, can't possibly nerf it more.
Edited by Iove on January 30, 2016 6:41PM7 -
Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »
But that templar surely can never beat you. Lol. People who 1v1 a healer and then complain that it heals ... Aw, hell. Just let them delete the class, can't possibly nerf it more.
If you guys want me to be honest that's literally the only example I could think of for a Templar....Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake5 -
Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭Finally someone gets it, someone who played Rift with balanced PVP about 15 month, its not so fun as people might think, its actually boring. Id prefer to keep ESO as mass/zerg PVP game and because of it, it gives more slack for balance issue and making it fun. Im gonna be extremely unhappy if they go with balanced PVP and from business point of view it sounds bad idea too, theres tons of balanced PVP games for those who want those, Zen should improve Cyrodil before adding Arenas, because thats where the money is.Edited by Sausage on January 30, 2016 7:06PM0 -
Iove✭✭✭✭Finally someone gets it, someone who played Rift with balanced PVP about 15 month, its not so fun as people might think, its actually boring. Id prefer to keep ESO as mass/zerg PVP game and because of it, it gives more slack for balance issue and making it fun. Im gonna be extremely unhappy if they go with balanced PVP and from business point of view it sounds bad idea too. Theres tons of balanced PVP games for those who want those.
Balance is not gonna be achieved. Yes. But they can at least try to fix extreme unbalance...
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Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »Finally someone gets it, someone who played Rift with balanced PVP about 15 month, its not so fun as people might think, its actually boring. Id prefer to keep ESO as mass/zerg PVP game and because of it, it gives more slack for balance issue and making it fun. Im gonna be extremely unhappy if they go with balanced PVP and from business point of view it sounds bad idea too. Theres tons of balanced PVP games for those who want those.
Balance is not gonna be achieved. Yes. But they can at least try to fix extreme unbalance...
Like what? Dont raise CP-cap until CP-average is way beyond 250, thats the way to do it.
Edited by Sausage on January 30, 2016 7:08PM0 -
Iove✭✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »Finally someone gets it, someone who played Rift with balanced PVP about 15 month, its not so fun as people might think, its actually boring. Id prefer to keep ESO as mass/zerg PVP game and because of it, it gives more slack for balance issue and making it fun. Im gonna be extremely unhappy if they go with balanced PVP and from business point of view it sounds bad idea too. Theres tons of balanced PVP games for those who want those.
Balance is not gonna be achieved. Yes. But they can at least try to fix extreme unbalance...
Like what? Dont raise CP-cap until CP-average is way beyond 250, thats the way to do it.
Where do I start? I'm a magicka templar.
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Sausage✭✭✭✭✭
✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »nicab16_ESO wrote: »Finally someone gets it, someone who played Rift with balanced PVP about 15 month, its not so fun as people might think, its actually boring. Id prefer to keep ESO as mass/zerg PVP game and because of it, it gives more slack for balance issue and making it fun. Im gonna be extremely unhappy if they go with balanced PVP and from business point of view it sounds bad idea too. Theres tons of balanced PVP games for those who want those.
Balance is not gonna be achieved. Yes. But they can at least try to fix extreme unbalance...
Like what? Dont raise CP-cap until CP-average is way beyond 250, thats the way to do it.
Where do I start? I'm a magicka templar.
Well, throw a few?
Ive played now Cyrodil 1 month or so, and I havent noticed anything serious other than CP-average issue, its probably closer to 150, when it should be near 300, this is on PS4.Edited by Sausage on January 30, 2016 7:13PM0 -
EnemyOfDaState✭✭✭✭I would agree if everyone didn't just hop to the new meta build on an alt. In theory having a tough challenge sounds good in reality you end up fighting what feels like the same character using the same skills over and over.0 -
Iove✭✭✭✭Lack of mobility, lack of damage mitigation, broken abilities that bug and get you killed, one good heal we had is constantly nerfed, our execute abilities got nerfed, no fixes happening on bugged abilities has been a constant since release.3
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »Lack of mobility, lack of damage mitigation, broken abilities that bug and get you killed, one good heal we had is constantly nerfed, our execute abilities got nerfed, no fixes happening on bugged abilities has been a constant since release.
While I agree that broken skills need to be fixed...the Templar isn't the only class who's been nerfed before.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Iove✭✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »Lack of mobility, lack of damage mitigation, broken abilities that bug and get you killed, one good heal we had is constantly nerfed, our execute abilities got nerfed, no fixes happening on bugged abilities has been a constant since release.
While I agree that broken skills need to be fixed...the Templar isn't the only class who's been nerfed before.
Yes but since beginning the Devs were saying that templars were weak and needed some buffs to balance. Constantly the lowest damage. And then they nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed.
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »nicab16_ESO wrote: »Lack of mobility, lack of damage mitigation, broken abilities that bug and get you killed, one good heal we had is constantly nerfed, our execute abilities got nerfed, no fixes happening on bugged abilities has been a constant since release.
While I agree that broken skills need to be fixed...the Templar isn't the only class who's been nerfed before.
Yes but since beginning the Devs were saying that templars were weak and needed some buffs to balance. Constantly the lowest damage. And then they nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed.
Templars actually do great damage in PvE.Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Iove✭✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »nicab16_ESO wrote: »Lack of mobility, lack of damage mitigation, broken abilities that bug and get you killed, one good heal we had is constantly nerfed, our execute abilities got nerfed, no fixes happening on bugged abilities has been a constant since release.
While I agree that broken skills need to be fixed...the Templar isn't the only class who's been nerfed before.
Yes but since beginning the Devs were saying that templars were weak and needed some buffs to balance. Constantly the lowest damage. And then they nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed.
Templars actually do great damage in PvE.
Stamina is good I hear. I'm talking magicka, as that is what I play. Since I heal as well as dd.
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Valrien✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nicab16_ESO wrote: »nicab16_ESO wrote: »nicab16_ESO wrote: »Lack of mobility, lack of damage mitigation, broken abilities that bug and get you killed, one good heal we had is constantly nerfed, our execute abilities got nerfed, no fixes happening on bugged abilities has been a constant since release.
While I agree that broken skills need to be fixed...the Templar isn't the only class who's been nerfed before.
Yes but since beginning the Devs were saying that templars were weak and needed some buffs to balance. Constantly the lowest damage. And then they nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed.
Templars actually do great damage in PvE.
Stamina is good I hear. I'm talking magicka, as that is what I play. Since I heal as well as dd.
I was talking about both
Valrien Dravic -- Level 50 Dunmeri Sorcerer (EP)
Garahel Dravic -- Level 50 Bosmeri Nightblade (EP)Tamriel Unlimited was a mistake. One Tamriel was a bigger mistake0 -
Forestd16b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Joy yet another thread about "balances is impossible". Yes true balancing is impossible but is possible for ZOS not to make one class "THE CLASS" to be. Since launch that's how it been first DK then sorcs now NBs. ZOS needs to look at all 4 classes at once and balance all 4 classes at once not just look at once class and make it "THE CLASS".2 -
Ffastyl✭✭✭✭✭"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
PC NA
Daggerfall Covenant
Ffastyl - Level 50 Templar
Arturus Amitis - Level 50 Nightblade
Sulac the Wanderer - Level 50 Dragonknight
Arcturus Leland - Level 50 Sorcerer
Azrog rus-Oliphet - Level 50 Templar
Tienc - Level 50 Warden
Aldmeri Dominion
Ashen Willow Knight - Level 50 Templar
Champion Rank 938
Check out:
Old vs New Intro Cinematics
"My strength is that I have no weaknesses. My weakness is that I have no strengths."
Member since May 4th, 2014.2 -
Waseem✭✭✭✭✭
✭class balance? all classes are balanced, if you think otherwise:
1) L2P
2) L2Gank
3)L2Shieldbreak
4)L2Tank
5)L2Shieldstack
6)L2Zerg
7)L2Heal
8)L2Hide
number sex suggestion is the easiest choice for the majority of ESO players across all alliance ranks.
*************
thanks for all people who told me that sex is not a number by posting on my wall or sending me messages, you guys changed my life and gave me a story to tell for my grandchildren.Edited by Waseem on January 31, 2016 9:34AM0 -
Iove✭✭✭✭class balance? all classes are balanced, if you think otherwise:
1) L2P
2) L2Gank
3)L2Shieldbreak
4)L2Tank
5)L2Shieldstack
6)L2Zerg
7)L2Heal
8)L2Hide
number sex suggestion is the easiest choice for the majority of ESO players across all alliance ranks.
Ah yes, L2P. Great advice. /sarcasm
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RoyJade✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree, a pure balance would be one of the worst think ZOS can do. Actually, we "just" need a big debug on a lot of skill (especially for templars) and a little boost for some gameplay (dots, heavy build). ZOS can give more change who won't break balance or fun, but trying to make every classes the same as other would be a bad idea.3 -
Ffastyl✭✭✭✭✭It's more balanced than people think. They're just thinking of it like a Magic deck, where black plays a card and then white has five minutes to choose what card to play back. Or red spends an hour picking out a fire spell just for blue to counter it in two seconds.
It's much faster pace in a video game. If you're fighting NBs, you need your detection items and abilities queued and ready. If you're fighting a templar, you need to be able to sustain longer than he can or just flee. For sorcerer you need sustain and multi-target abilities. For DK you just need to not stand in one place for too long.
Nobody strategizes anymore. They want to go with their one build and expect it to be great against everything. Not going to happen. You're going to be stronger against some builds and weaker against others. That's what true balance is. Not design equality. Counter-measures. Balance is what the individual does planning against multiple types of threats. But you can't plan for them all, so you will get wrecked by something. You will always have a weakness.
This what makes achieving that "no weakness" build so satisfying for me. I start with a high defense and work from there, tweaking healing, damage, debuffs, buffs, gear... until I have something that performs reasonably well against everything I can think of, even if it never performs exceptionally well against anything. When I encounter something I haven't thought of -- back to the drawing board.
Classes with a variety of tools at their disposal are best for this kind of play. Nightblades have undoubtedly the most varied toolset available, ignoring some actual imbalances that are not class specific (Ambush spam is related to the Empower buff, for example), and Stamina Templars are severely lacking in that regard. To be specific, Templars lack active defense. Sun Shield, Rune Focus, Eclipse and Cleansing Ritual are the Templar's active defense abilities, however Sun Shield is cost inefficient (high cost for low return), Eclipse is near useless with hard-CC categorization and neither Rune Focus nor Cleansing Ritual are enough on their own. Magicka Templars can make up for the lack of active defense by tapping into class healing.
That is why I find Templar in a frustrating place, balance-wise.
Dragonknights are also lacking in active defense but the universal nature of Dragon Blood (requiring neither Stamina or Magicka investment) keeps the class viable though still lacking in versatility."A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."
PC NA
Daggerfall Covenant
Ffastyl - Level 50 Templar
Arturus Amitis - Level 50 Nightblade
Sulac the Wanderer - Level 50 Dragonknight
Arcturus Leland - Level 50 Sorcerer
Azrog rus-Oliphet - Level 50 Templar
Tienc - Level 50 Warden
Aldmeri Dominion
Ashen Willow Knight - Level 50 Templar
Champion Rank 938
Check out:
Old vs New Intro Cinematics
"My strength is that I have no weaknesses. My weakness is that I have no strengths."
Member since May 4th, 2014.1 -
Therium104✭✭✭Everyone seems to be whining about class balance. While some things do need to be buffed slightly (maybe some things brought down), I feel the need to state this: balance will never happen. It has the potential to happen, but it would be INCREDIBLY boring.
True balance would be every class having the exact same abilities with different visual effects. Or no skills and all light attacks.
Having no balance in the game is fun. Nightblade is the powerful class right now. You feel good when you can beat a nightblade. In 1.6 it was the best feeling if you could beat a Sorcerer, and before that a DK, etc., etc.,. Having something naturally more powerful than the rest puts your skills to the test. Can you burst down that Sorcerer's shields? Can you keep that Nightblade from cloaking and healing? Can you somehow get past that DK's wings? Can you beat that Templar who's permanently block-casting Breath of Life?
All of these questions are things we like to answer ourselves, and finding the answer has only positive outcomes. Either the answer is "yes" and we feel awesome for winning, or the answer is "no" and we work at it until we can win.
True balance will never be achieved because it will make things stale and boring. Imbalance is genuinely good, it's exciting. Even if that one Sorcerer or DK or etc., keeps beating you, you'll eventually beat them.
*puts on flameproof suit*
Lol. Another NB crying to avoid a nerf. It is coming buddy. Stop whining. NB will definately get Nerfed.0 -
Vekoeros✭✭I think the game is fairly balanced already each class has its advantages and disadvantages, that's the entire point of having a class system anyway.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w