Can a sorcerer tank just as good as a Dragonknight?

code65536 · January 2016

remilafo wrote: »

the need for tank in this game is non-existant, why?

anyways though, Sorc is just about the only class that can be an Effective Magicka tank.. Dk's can't do that..

The most effective magicka tank class is the nightblade.

You need to be able to block, and block effectively. Hardened ward can only do so much, esp. since it takes raw unmitigated damage. There are a lot of things that can one-shot the ward, not to mention a lot of CC mechanics that block will protect you against, but ward will not.

To block effectively, you need sword-and-board.

If you're using sword-and-board, you're basically limited to class/armor/guild/pvp abilities. So what's this about sorcs helping out with DPS? Sorcs need a destro staff for instant damage abilities. Sorcs need a destro staff for player-based AoE; all they have otherwise is a ground-based AoE. Oh, and without a resto staff, sorcs have no reliable self-healing (surge's RNG healing isn't enough for a tank role).

Can a sorc tank all the 4-man content in this game? Of course. But would they be able to do so as effectively as a magicka nightlade? Not even close.

Dubhliam · January 2016

remilafo wrote: »

the need for tank in this game is non-existant, why?

anyways though, Sorc is just about the only class that can be an Effective Magicka tank.. Dk's can't do that..

Seriously?
My DK tanks vWGT and vICP all the time and have 64 points into magicka.

What seems to be the problem?

Personofsecrets · January 2016

Dubhliam wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

the need for tank in this game is non-existant, why?

anyways though, Sorc is just about the only class that can be an Effective Magicka tank.. Dk's can't do that..

Seriously?
My DK tanks vWGT and vICP all the time and have 64 points into magicka.

What seems to be the problem?

yea, this is a funny misconception people have now. I'd say magic tank is way stronger.

Magdalina · January 2016

Etaniel wrote: »

rofl, sorc tanking : hardened ward + block
You can tank anything this game has to offer with ease

This isn't actually enough in ICP and is barely enough in WGT. Yes, I checked

The catch with shields is any damage getting through them ignores 100% armor/spellresist so when stuff hits hard, you basically have to spam shields nonstop because you'll get 1-2 shot once your shield gets weak. You do OOM(or OOS) eventually and then...yeah.
The rest of the dungeons yeah whatever, but then you barely need a tank for those at all.

eliisra · January 2016

Problem with sorc tank is that they cant offer anything additional to the group. They're only exceptionally good at taking a beating.

They have no decent skills for off-dps or AoE with Sword and Board equipped. They cant off-heal without resto staff. They have no group support or utility.

NB, DK and templar can, by only using class skills, still bring 2-3 of these things to the table in the tank role.

If Encase and Mines weren't so bloody expensive on the magicka cost, I think sorc tanks would be in a better place. At least than they'd help melt down trash faster.

Erraln · January 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

The catch with shields is any damage getting through them ignores 100% armor/spellresist

Shields have not functioned in that way since IC update, your defense is taken into account.

Personally, I like to tank pledges as a Sorceror in light armor, with a Restoration staff. Cast Shuffle, Boundless Storm, and Hardened Ward, and you'll do fine. Have a heal or two (Healing Ward is great for a pinch) and Inner Fire, and you're set. Spec towards dps, with a bit of regen, and Resto Heavy attack if you need more. Block where mechanics demand it, and otherwise let your wards do their job. Negate and Barrier are nice ultimates to cast for support, and if you'd like to add dps you can slot Overload (remember to put Inner Fire on that bar too ;D).

Magdalina · January 2016

Erraln wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

The catch with shields is any damage getting through them ignores 100% armor/spellresist

Shields have not functioned in that way since IC update, your defense is taken into account.

Not in my experience. I tried shield -tanking Bloodspawn and I was getting same exact amount of damage from him with or without my armor buff when my shield was up(meaning his heavy 1shot my shield and the damage overflow from it did same exact amount of damage to me).
It did seem to reduce the damage dealt correctly when I didn't have a shield up though.

Erraln · January 2016

Magdalina wrote: »

Not in my experience.

I'll provide numbers when the servers are back up, I suggest you check for yourself as well.

EDIT: Numbers: http://imgur.com/a/XWqTn
A shielded Kick does an (unmitigated) 2802 Damage.
A normal Kick does 2382.
A Kick which overflowed my shield did 1630 shield + 996 damage: 2,626 total.

Since this is not 2802 total, therefore, my defense mattered once the Ward was dispelled. Yes, shields have no defense. No, overflow damage is correctly mitigated due to armor. It's been that way since September.

BigTone · January 2016

My sorc can effectively tank/heal/dps any 4 man vet dungeon in the game. Now if I were asked to tank or heal HRC hardmode, that would be a different story.

AlnilamE · January 2016

eliisra wrote: »

Problem with sorc tank is that they cant offer anything additional to the group. They're only exceptionally good at taking a beating.

They have no decent skills for off-dps or AoE with Sword and Board equipped. They cant off-heal without resto staff. They have no group support or utility.

NB, DK and templar can, by only using class skills, still bring 2-3 of these things to the table in the tank role.

If Encase and Mines weren't so bloody expensive on the magicka cost, I think sorc tanks would be in a better place. At least than they'd help melt down trash faster.

Why do you say Encase and Mines are expensive? My problem with mines is the cast time, but Encase (or Shattering Prison, which is the one I use) doesn't seem expensive to me.

Joy_Division · January 2016

dday3six wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

Can a sorcerer tank? Yes. Can a sorcerer tank well? Yes. Can a sorcerer tank as well as a dragonknight? Nope.

Given equal player skill the DK will be the better tank than the sorcerer, DKs have a whole skill line dedicated to tanking. However having said that a sorcerer tank will be able to tank all the dungeons in the game just fine with a bit of tweaking.

It's similar to healers. Every class can heal, but templars are still the best.

Give it time. With ZOS nerfing DKs and Templars every single patch and players power boosting DPS through the roof and resistance having a hard cap and NB already able to fill the tank role just as well.

Yea give it time then sorcerer be able to tank just as well.

You do know ZOS has stated they're buffing DKs and Templars, right?

Yea that's what they said at IC patch and Orsinium patch and all hot patches in between keeped booping DKs and Templars with nerf bat.

ZOS acknowledged issues with both classes after the IC and Orsinium updates. They did not directly mention buffing either during those updates. I get you want DK and Heavy Armor to be stronger. However spreading misinformation is going to help.

No most to nearly all the DKs and Templars want them to be buffed up and ZOS acknowledging the problems isn't fixing anything and then to be saying that they'll fix it at IC and the Orsinium makes it hard for DKs or Tempalrs to get there hopes up for anything especially when NBs still are saying DKs are OP and need more nerfs.

You need to tone down the hyperbole. Both DKs and Templars fare well in PVE. What you're talking about is PVP where Stamina DKs are actually strong but not Magicka, and Templars are at a bit of a lose when not supported by a group. The game has more than one aspect neither DKs, nor Templars are underwhelming for all of them. It's most in regards ti PVP that they could use buffing.

People say this all the time.

If a DK can do the Wayrest daily pledge, the does not mean it "fares well in PvE." It means ZoS has dumbed downed Wayrest to the point where dedicated tanks and healers are no longer needed nor wanted if you want to get it done quickly.

Right now there is one Pve end game content and that is Maelstrom arena. I've done it on my sorcerer, Templar, and my DK. On my sorcerer I get it done in about 90 minutes. On my DK it took 8 hours and over 120 deaths. All those people who see walking around with "Flawless Conqueror" achievements? They're not templars...

Mivryna · January 2016

I've seen a great Summoner tank before. Daedric Summoning scales with Magicka, so everything into Magicka, Twilight Matriarch for extra damage and emergency heals, Clannfear for extra damage tanking and emergency heals, Daedric Curse for extra damage, and Hardened Ward + Annulment to soak up most of the damage.

If you've got enough Magicka regen to sustain it without light armor, then you can also wear heavy armor and tank mostly like normal, just in case something breaks through the wards.

Wifeaggro13 · January 2016

Paulington wrote: »

Can a sorcerer tank? Yes. Can a sorcerer tank well? Yes. Can a sorcerer tank as well as a dragonknight? Nope.

Given equal player skill the DK will be the better tank than the sorcerer, DKs have a whole skill line dedicated to tanking. However having said that a sorcerer tank will be able to tank all the dungeons in the game just fine with a bit of tweaking.

It's similar to healers. Every class can heal, but templars are still the best.

I actually enjoyed sorc tanking more then DK tanking

Usara · January 2016

eliisra wrote: »

Problem with sorc tank is that they cant offer anything additional to the group. They're only exceptionally good at taking a beating.

They have no decent skills for off-dps or AoE with Sword and Board equipped. They cant off-heal without resto staff. They have no group support or utility.

NB, DK and templar can, by only using class skills, still bring 2-3 of these things to the table in the tank role.

If Encase and Mines weren't so bloody expensive on the magicka cost, I think sorc tanks would be in a better place. At least than they'd help melt down trash faster.

Lightning form, Liquid Lightning + Mage wrath. As a tank in 5 heavy, I'm around 10k dps in trashes. I've never been able to do that with my DK Tank.
I know some DK tanks are able to, but imagine what those guys would do with a sorc then

Hamrb · January 2016

The only thing that comes to mind is the axes on the last boss of AA, I feel like DKs Stam regen from using ulti is pretty useful in that fight, I'm sure it can be done without it though.

Shadesofkin · January 2016

Every class can play each of the three major roles, some classes are simply more intuitive going about it.

Hamrb · January 2016

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Every class can play each of the three major roles, some classes are simply more intuitive going about it.

There you go making me agree with you. Grrr

UrQuan · January 2016

remilafo wrote: »

anyways though, Sorc is just about the only class that can be an Effective Magicka tank.. Dk's can't do that..

Ha ha ha ha, what? Yeah, you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Every class can be an effective magicka tank - in fact it's generally significantly easier to be a magicka tank than a stamina tank, as most of the class abilities that you would want for tanking (for each class) are magicka-based. You just need enough stamina to block when blocking is needed (which is not all the time), and to keep taunting, and maybe throwing in the occasional other S&B skill (like Heroic Slash). You can easily get to the "enough stamina" point without putting a single attribute point into stamina.

My VR16 magicka templar tanks very effectively. My VR16 magicka DK does too. I don't have a nightblade tank, but I know several people with very effective nightblade magicka sap-tanks.

AH93 · January 2016

Sorcerers make very good tanks, as does every class, it depends on the player, their skill/gear and ability setup that determines whether they will be effective at their role or not.
However all things equal I would say Dragonknights are the superior class for tanking, but every class can tank well.

rainingsidwaysb14_ESO · January 2016

Man this thread really blew up, didn't know it was such a hot topic.

caperon · January 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

remilafo wrote: »

the need for tank in this game is non-existant, why?

anyways though, Sorc is just about the only class that can be an Effective Magicka tank.. Dk's can't do that..

Seriously?
My DK tanks vWGT and vICP all the time and have 64 points into magicka.

What seems to be the problem?

yea, this is a funny misconception people have now. I'd say magic tank is way stronger.

Magicka DK tank is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar better than stamina. All your goodies use magicka, so its better run 25k magicka and cost reduction, chains and talons for everyone!

Chains alone makes DK the best pure tanking class, followed by magicka NB as tank-dps.

I recently made a tanking spec for my stamina sorcerer so I can lvl my undaunted doing pledges and i feel so handicapped that is embarrassig.

code65536 · January 2016

Usara wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

Problem with sorc tank is that they cant offer anything additional to the group. They're only exceptionally good at taking a beating.

They have no decent skills for off-dps or AoE with Sword and Board equipped. They cant off-heal without resto staff. They have no group support or utility.

NB, DK and templar can, by only using class skills, still bring 2-3 of these things to the table in the tank role.

If Encase and Mines weren't so bloody expensive on the magicka cost, I think sorc tanks would be in a better place. At least than they'd help melt down trash faster.

Lightning form, Liquid Lightning + Mage wrath. As a tank in 5 heavy, I'm around 10k dps in trashes. I've never been able to do that with my DK Tank.
I know some DK tanks are able to, but imagine what those guys would do with a sorc then

With a magicka nb tank, I can almost (though not quite) pull 10K, too... single target. In AoE trash mobs? Depends on how dense and well-packed it is, but often quite a bit more than 10K. If you want a tank that has off-DPS capability, nothing can touch the nightblade.

Magicka DK tanks do have some decent damage options: Eruption, Draw Essence, Fiery Breath, Burning Embers, and I love to throw in Volcanic Rune for comedy of that popcorn effect. I can't do nightblade-level damage, of course, but in dense trash, 10K isn't unheard of.

Volkodav · January 2016

Dragonknights are the best at being what they are.Tanks.

dday3six · January 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

Can a sorcerer tank? Yes. Can a sorcerer tank well? Yes. Can a sorcerer tank as well as a dragonknight? Nope.

Given equal player skill the DK will be the better tank than the sorcerer, DKs have a whole skill line dedicated to tanking. However having said that a sorcerer tank will be able to tank all the dungeons in the game just fine with a bit of tweaking.

It's similar to healers. Every class can heal, but templars are still the best.

Give it time. With ZOS nerfing DKs and Templars every single patch and players power boosting DPS through the roof and resistance having a hard cap and NB already able to fill the tank role just as well.

Yea give it time then sorcerer be able to tank just as well.

You do know ZOS has stated they're buffing DKs and Templars, right?

Yea that's what they said at IC patch and Orsinium patch and all hot patches in between keeped booping DKs and Templars with nerf bat.

ZOS acknowledged issues with both classes after the IC and Orsinium updates. They did not directly mention buffing either during those updates. I get you want DK and Heavy Armor to be stronger. However spreading misinformation is going to help.

No most to nearly all the DKs and Templars want them to be buffed up and ZOS acknowledging the problems isn't fixing anything and then to be saying that they'll fix it at IC and the Orsinium makes it hard for DKs or Tempalrs to get there hopes up for anything especially when NBs still are saying DKs are OP and need more nerfs.

You need to tone down the hyperbole. Both DKs and Templars fare well in PVE. What you're talking about is PVP where Stamina DKs are actually strong but not Magicka, and Templars are at a bit of a lose when not supported by a group. The game has more than one aspect neither DKs, nor Templars are underwhelming for all of them. It's most in regards ti PVP that they could use buffing.

People say this all the time.

If a DK can do the Wayrest daily pledge, the does not mean it "fares well in PvE." It means ZoS has dumbed downed Wayrest to the point where dedicated tanks and healers are no longer needed nor wanted if you want to get it done quickly.

Right now there is one Pve end game content and that is Maelstrom arena. I've done it on my sorcerer, Templar, and my DK. On my sorcerer I get it done in about 90 minutes. On my DK it took 8 hours and over 120 deaths. All those people who see walking around with "Flawless Conqueror" achievements? They're not templars...

So what happens when the new trial is released and DKs are the go to tanks/dps while Templars are the go to healers?

I know both DKs and Templars with Flawless Conquerer. The thing is vMSA is terribly designed. It heavily favors Magicka builds, and of them Sorc has the greatest solo capabilities. However that doesn't change that both Magicka and Stamina DK are capable of very high DPS while in a group, and arguably still make the best tanks. Templar because of it's support skills is still the best healer. vMSA showed a lack of classes' solo capabilities, but classes weren't built around difficult solo content, they were built with groups in mind.

Gruntz_II · January 2016

I tanked all vet dungeons minus IC prison on my late Sorc tank. I've since then switched to DPS for PvP. Sorc tanks have great CC with Negate Magic and Encase. If you can bunch up the big pulls, Negate makes them a breeze. I think its a 12 second stun with skill points in the passives. LoS helps a lot to make up for not having DK chains.

PainfulFAFA · January 2016

I've tanked vWGT, vICP, vDSA, on my stam sorc. Yes it possible but not as effective as DK.

willymchilybily · January 2016

My DK tank doesn't use chains unless on engine guardian, just inner fire and talons, should work okay with encase, plus minor and major armour buffs last longer on sorc, sorc tank would be fine magicka or stamina,

What IMO makes DK superior is the passives ult /stam regen potential with passives, block passive, healing received when using draconian abilities like armour buff and or coagulating blood to boost it further.and ultimate choice, I use banner for the reduction in damage and major defile which for some fights eg vet WGT daedroths and lacerators makes a difference but with good Dps and tactic (taunt mobs away from healer) you don't need it and any one can get war horn the go to party buff.

But that's not to say it's not possible. And it opens you up for others sets like say permafrost etc. I've often thought about making a magicka sorc tank just to test it out. Reduced block cost on all jewellery heavy armour and sword and shield with 225 cp can make up for a lot . Good luck op