GROUP DAMAGE ADDONS - Yes or No?

Cuyler · January 2016

Simple. Do you think addons that track group dps/total damage (without the option to disable tracking) should be allowed to be developed for ESO?

Please explain why or why not.....and let's try to keep it civil...really try

Thanks in advance!

sirrmattus · January 2016

its awesome

Anhedonie · January 2016

I always link mine dps if somebody asks me to do so.
Elitist jerks will find another reasons to kick somebody from their group. Reason matters the least in that case.
So...whatever, I guess.

Ra'Shtar · January 2016

Its a tool and a very useful one, every tool can be used as a weapon but that is not a reason to go back to the Stone Age.

nine9six · January 2016

I like to see what the numbers are, sometimes. Out of curiosity. I don't look at them in the same light as everyone.

code65536 · January 2016

I'm going to repost from the other thread:

code65536 wrote: »

This is a point that I have yet to see any of the addon's detractors address: GroupDamage is superior to FTC's sharing. FTC's sharing is unreliable and spits out a single number at the end of a parse. GroupDamage shows the total damage and total heals each person is doing, live, in real time as the fight is progressing. GD is more useful and informative than FTC sharing, and it avoids many of the pitfalls of FTC (particularly when FTC's timing heuristics are off and it gives you a parse consisting of the final seconds of an execution burn). You often don't see some of the crazy inflated numbers that you'd see in FTC because GD is more robust and reliable than FTC.

It cuts both ways. Yes, it can be used to identify people who are underperforming. But it can also be used to expose the real damage that the so-called "epeen strokers" actually do. Instead of having people selectively post the parses that they like, with numbers that look high because of timing, in fights where crit RNG and other factors all went in their favor, you can see what the actual performance is through the entire fight, on all fights, and as a good-but-not-elite player, this addon has actually been very reassuring, as I've now seen that some people who post very high FTCs at the very end of certain fights are often doing amounts of damage in the overall dungeon that are comparable to mine.

People seem to think that data and transparency works only against newbies. That's nonsense. I'm by no means an "elite" player, and I run this addon mostly to reassure myself when I am grouped with very good and elite players that I'm not underperforming too much relative to them. I like the reassurance that a 10K DPS on a certain fight is actually acceptable because another really good DPS is pulling similar numbers, due to mechanics or other factors. This is something that you can get only with the always-on real-time data that GD provides. That no other addon can provide.

I also know people who are average players who have gotten this addon and who like it. Because they're curious about how they stack up and how they are improving. Because they like to have context to damage numbers. "What's a good DPS?" Well, it depends on the fight, doesn't it? Instead of looking at FTC's regurgitation of a single number that has no context (e.g., a 15K on Planar Inhibitor is far more impressive than a 15K on Blood Spawn), you can see your damage numbers in context with the damage numbers of others in the group, in all types of pulls and situations, and it's much more informative and educational. There is no comparable alternative to GD.

code65536 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Though there are good and bad things about this addon, we believe that using this type of addon isn’t in the spirit of our game and encourages spying on other players without their permission. Ultimately, we don’t want players being evaluated and discriminated against based on data they don’t know is being broadcast. You will still be able to use addons that show your own combat data if you so choose to, which you can share with others.

Then let us opt in.

The current method of sharing combat data (without this addon) is, at best, clunky, inaccurate, inefficient, and does not give us real-time data as the fight progresses. This is something that has consistently not been addressed in this thread: There is no good alternative at the moment.

Let us flag our account so that our data can be picked up and analyzed by someone else's GroupDamage, so that they're not relying on me to manually spit out a single number at the end of a fight. So that they can see my numbers as they change during the fight, for all fights. Don't take this away from us and pretend that this is okay because we have adequate alternatives. Because we don't.

Thelon · January 2016

Its an easy, reliable and open way to see who needs more training and who is ready for more serious trial runs.

Cously · January 2016

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

DPS meter addons don't harass people, people harass people.

bimbo · January 2016

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

It's not only serve as a monitor tool for yourself, it also motivates the dps to do their best.

Having this addon is like having your boss around you in your work place, monitor and mange your work performance.

When something goes wrong, you can easily find out the weak link and make adjustments

OmniDevil · January 2016

I've always had a love-hate relationship with DPS meters. They either worked with me or against me.

Love:
They allow me to monitor my damage output along with allowing others to see it, to help me better myself. I spend a lot of time looking a gear, builds, stats, numbers, etc in any MMO I play, but I can't ever know everything. Chances are, there's someone out there that knows something I don't and that "something" can help me for the better.

Hate:
In group/raid situations, they can sometimes cause "tunnel-visionitis", which leads to standing in stupid or "oops" moments, however.

The people that abuse addons like this, kicking players for XYZ reason, would probably kick you anyways, without it, because they've never got a long nicely with anyone they don't know. It's a clique thing and it always has been. Most that use addons like this will out out low numbers and offer advice, but they won't kick you because, "Git Gud, L2P". Now, on the other hand, if you lie about your numbers, well, I can't blame them for kicking you...

Robbmrp · January 2016

I'm sorry but with the way people already discriminate against those they consider "lower" DPS, this is just going to cause a greater divide and make people require X number of CP to group for dungeons/Trials. If you think it's hard enough to find people for a dungeon run now, just wait.....

daemonios · January 2016

While there are some merits to these add-ons, I think the potential for griefing outweighs the benefits. There are better ways to teach people how to improve their gameplay.

Robbmrp · January 2016

Cously wrote: »

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

DPS meter addons don't harass people, people harass people.

And this is exactly what's going to happen. Your going to have a decked out DPS look at another person who may not have been running dungeons for very long and assume they are a crappy player. They won't know any circumstances behind why that person's DPS is where it's at, they will only see what they interpret as an inadequate players DPS. This will start to set expectations on future groups, "I'm not going to group with them, they can't do decent DPS".....

Zorrashi · January 2016

I would say yes, but I find the option to disable tracking really important. So no (unless you have the option to disable).

NewBlacksmurf · January 2016

ZOS' comment sums up my thoughts.

Here is the thing....if you came to this game hoping to play WoW or EverQuest in an ESO skin....this is the wrong game.
That is why I'm here, I got tired of the same ol..same ol in a different skin.

I actually get to play with people and try and figure stuff while meeting new and cool ppl instead of only playing with elites folks or rather the folks with top gear who may or may not be able to play.

Now we play with ppl who prob don't have great gear all the time but are amazing players.

its a good change for someone like me.

Bogdan_Kobzar · January 2016

Yes, for me, this is the BESTEST indicator of how my combat skills are progressing.
I can't see my combat mentor's screen, but when they say they are doing x, i can see how much damage x does as i attempt to replicate my mentor's technique.
I am a casual gamer, I don't do this for a living, I don't have 20hrs a day to spend on perfecting animation cancellation and light, medium, heavy attack weaving.

People WILL abuse anything, because they're people.

Nifty2g · January 2016

The addon doesn't show your DPS it shows your damage and percentage ranked against other players and that is what I think this game needs.

theher0not · January 2016

As long as it isn't abused I see no problem with it. In PvE it can be used to see who is cobtribiuting to the fight and who is just a waste of group space. (If they make it so you can choose to hide your DPS from the trackers the elitists and other people who cares about DPS force people to enable it if they don't want kick). Wow's Recount and Skada addons are really helpfull and I think ESO should have similar addons

Danksta · January 2016

I guess my answer is a little selfish. Idc if elitist a-holes wanna tell me to l2p, I have thick skin and someone idk attacking me won't effect me in the slightest. The issue here is these jerks, not this add-on. Without the add-on, these guys are still gonna be jerks. If I, a self proclaimed noob, was grouped with someone who could teach me some things this add-on would come in very handy I'd imagine.

NOW WHERE'S MY SWEETROOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cously · January 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

Cously wrote: »

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

DPS meter addons don't harass people, people harass people.

And this is exactly what's going to happen. Your going to have a decked out DPS look at another person who may not have been running dungeons for very long and assume they are a crappy player. They won't know any circumstances behind why that person's DPS is where it's at, they will only see what they interpret as an inadequate players DPS. This will start to set expectations on future groups, "I'm not going to group with them, they can't do decent DPS".....

Freedom of association. Besides if you get kicked from a group with such attitude, you are lucky as you won't have to deal with that kind of person anymore. If the jerks want to ostracize pugs and stick with their own elite community, let them. Eventually they will die off as they didn't train new players for the group. It might look unfair now but jerks punish themselves in the long run.

You will run with everyone until you meet a player who gauged your DPS and said "Hey...perharps you could try this instead...this rotation or this set..." and you might be invited for a guild, good people like helping each other. That's freedom of association.

KallistaBlackheart · January 2016

it is a useful tool that lets players evaluate the overall group capability and yes kick if needed those who clearly are not ready for the GROUP content they are participating in. before this as a tank or a dps i would need to guess and kick or leave based on said educated guess. after this addon i could pinpoint just how badly the offending players were and make a judgment to stay/leave or kick/help based on exactly how badly. if this does go away i will be back to the limited options of rough guessing and kicking as unfair as that is. this tool does not violate any privacy as once you are in a group and your contributions matter for the group it is no longer your private information as others rely on your performance. no this is not a job, yes your performance determines if the others will be wasting their time.

Shunravi · January 2016

Yes, based on how ive been using it lately.

Shunravi wrote: »

I just want to say goodbye to making smooth and fun pug trials work where they would have failed before. Now its back to asking for dps and gear, and making people uncomfortable because of that. And kicking (or constantly wiping because I hate kicking people) because there is little else to go on if they dont.

Im gonna miss making something that should have been hard to near impossible work.

Annyways, also this.

Cously wrote: »

Robbmrp wrote: »

Cously wrote: »

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

DPS meter addons don't harass people, people harass people.

And this is exactly what's going to happen. Your going to have a decked out DPS look at another person who may not have been running dungeons for very long and assume they are a crappy player. They won't know any circumstances behind why that person's DPS is where it's at, they will only see what they interpret as an inadequate players DPS. This will start to set expectations on future groups, "I'm not going to group with them, they can't do decent DPS".....

Freedom of association. Besides if you get kicked from a group with such attitude, you are lucky as you won't have to deal with that kind of person anymore. If the jerks want to ostracize pugs and stick with their own elite community, let them. Eventually they will die off as they didn't train new players for the group. It might look unfair now but jerks punish themselves in the long run.

You will run with everyone until you meet a player who gauged your DPS and said "Hey...perharps you could try this instead...this rotation or this set..." and you might be invited for a guild, good people like helping each other. That's freedom of association.

Zorrashi · January 2016

Honestly if they added an opt in version, I would be totally ok with it. But the last group damage add on I heard about didn't include that in the slightest, and measured damage indiscriminately (often without the group players knowledge).

But if they added an opt in version? Would totally be on board for that. Let them measure their performance.

Recremen · January 2016

It's useful for everyone and I highly doubt that there's that much of an elitist community in this game. The people in competitive guilds do not, as far as I'm aware, dump on players with lackluster performance. They just don't get invited to trials and other high-end content. They know how much DPS is needed to clear an encounter with whatever strategy they're using, and after that it's pretty much just a game of balancing the numbers. I've never seen a lead have a bad attitude about it, it's just a managerial thing. I mean, you wouldn't go into a trial knowing you're going to fail because your numbers don't add up, right? Right. The only time you're going to run into problems is with mid-tier players getting frustrated with each other's low numbers, and I've seen very little of that, too. Either way, though, a mid-tier player is by definition not an elite player, and a damage addon wouldn't have anything to do with their bad attitude.

On the other hand, damage meter addons can give lots of insight into things like class balance! If a top-tier PvE group consistently finds that some classes are outperforming others in a given situation, you can bet it's not a problem with their players. Having raw physical data as evidence from real player encounters can give the devs the tools they need to tackle balance head-on!

On the other hand, the fact that these addons work at all implies that the servers are doing a lot of work sending this data to the clients. If, when they make it so these addons don't work, they also happen to greatly reduce the server load sending the data, then I'm all for it just for the performance boost. If not, then I'd prefer it stays.

Bluepitbull13 · January 2016

Yes, or at least given the option to opt-in to share the information that made groupdamage addon work. People want to fear monger about the addon yet the addon wasn't around 3 months ago when Johnny got kicked from a Vet pledge.

Nestor · January 2016

I track my own DPS, I don't need to track others and don't need others tracking me. I also don't run trials and have no pride concerning vet dungeons so for example if the Vet Pledge is White Gold Tower or City of Ash, I just don't do them. I mean I will do them, but I tell the group that I may not be the best choice for this one.

Besides there are a lot of boss mechanics that require you to basically run for cover and your not doing any DPS during that time.

If a group kicks me because I am not pulling my weight, then they have standards that are not on my horizon to meet.

Abeille · January 2016

I really don't care.

If my group wants to use it, I'll use it too (if they want to see my DPS so badly, I want to see their DPS too). If my group doesn't want to use it, I won't use it either (less clutter on my UI, yay).

So really, I don't care if they are allowed or not. I DO prefer if they are not, because I prefer to not have that little window on my UI. But, again, if my group wants oh so badly to make sure I don't suck, I want to see if they don't suck either. I think it is just fair.

PhatGrimReaper · January 2016

When I have a crappy parse or I'm struggling to improve DPS, I welcome the feedback from experienced players on ways to be better..... business, sport, career... all these things are better when you welcome constructive criticism. The "Elitist" boogie men that people talk about are very few and far between. Most of the top notch players are really cool with helping you get better.... The OP is a great example of this!

Shunravi · January 2016

Abeille wrote: »

I literally don't care.

If my group wants to use it, I'll use it too (if they want to see my DPS so badly, I want to see their DPS too). If my group doesn't want to use it, I won't use it either (less clutter on my UI, yay).

So really, I don't care if they are allowed or not. I DO prefer if they are not, because I prefer to not have that little window on my UI. But, again, if my group wants oh so badly to make sure I don't suck, I want to see if they don't suck either. I think it is just fair.

The current one has quick and easy on and off options.

cazlonb16_ESO · January 2016

theher0not wrote: »

As long as it isn't abused I see no problem with it.

You are new to the interwebs, aren't you

Heindrich · January 2016

Elitist jerks will be jerks whether a public dps meter exists or not.

With a public dps meter available, they will quickly identify the weak link and kick him quickly with minimal fuss and easy justification. Without a dps meter they will get frustrated and rage at the noobie after discovering the weak link later in the dungeon run, and then kick him.

Most elite players already use personal dps meters and can easily tell if somebody in the team is not pulling their weight. With a public dps meter aspirational players will be able to see how their performance compares with others and seek to improve. And nice elite players who don't kick/abuse noobies now will also not kick/abuse noobies once they can see their dps numbers. They already know.

If anything better information will mostly shut up the mediocre players who think they are good and blame everyone else for their group's difficulties.

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