Nightblade through the eyes of a Nightblade

Tryxus · January 2016

I bet that title got everyone's attention

Now, this isn't just a "I defend NB cuz"-thread, this is basically my attempt at a constructive thread and discussion about a class though the eyes of someone who has played as a Nightblade (both Mag and Stam) for over 7 months. So I would kindly ask everyone not to start complaining about how "OP" the class is, to "nerf NB to the ground" or anything else like that.

I would be extremely naive if I believed that through this thread I could convince ppl to change their views about us and to reduce the NB hate, but I do hope that I can reach out to everyone (hopefully to ZOS as well) to at least try to understand our viewpoints.

I'm not an expert PvPer, nor do I claim to be good at this game. But I have my reasons to stand up (will explain later in my post) for the Nightblades and make appeals to everyone willing to listen.

I also hope that ZOS could at least have a look at the points I'm trying to make. I'm happy if someone from ZOS would at least read it

Now, let's get to it...

1. What are Nightblades?
According to ES lore (UESP.net): Nightblades are actually mages, who use their magic to be successful assassins. They simply use their magicks for concealment, stealth, thievery and assassination to achieve the same results as an actual agent of darkness. We have the Illusion Magicks (Shadow), assassination skills (Assassination) and regular magicks for self-defense (Siphoning). So we pretty much follow the lore of the main games (Well, maybe not TES 4 Oblivion, NB were a mess

).

Now, we apparently started out as a broken class, and not in a good way broken. Most of our skills didn't work, we were too weak and we were suffering from a lot of bugs. But thx to the attention and the fixing from ZOS, the NB class rose up in the ranks to become class that is true to the lore, has an identity as an assassin and generally feels like you're actually playing the role of one in the game.

This, and several other changes that were made to the game, brought a huge wave of hatred and dissent from players who began to claim that the NB is now "OP" and wish nothing more than to see us "nerfed to the ground", going as far as continously making threads on the forums in which they (try to) explain their hatred or even harassment ingame.

But this actually a point where you should ask yourself: Is the Nightblade really OP? And would it be wise to "nerf" them?

2. Nerf Nightblades?

I have listed a few of the more common arguments from other players where I will try to counter them, from the point of view as a Nightblade.

Cloak is too powerful
Surprisingly, on my Stamina Nightblade, I find Cloak to be nothing more than a Purge skill, not an escape skill. True, I can halt the fight for about 2.9 seconds max, but the main purpose of the Cloak as a StamBlade is to get rid of the DoT.

Many times when I fight a group or see a zerg incoming, I try to use Cloak and then crouch to get into stealth even when the Cloak disappears. But Cloak itself does not always work (Strider_Roshin has proven that in one of his videos) and even if you go to stealth there's always the chance that someone saw you disappear and will try to knock the NB out of stealth with several of his AoE attacks.

On my StamBlade, I mostly use Cloak to remove any DoT I'm suffering from, or to try and get the upper hand again with a bit of burst damage: going stealth to activate the Master Assassin passive and then hit hard with Ambush or Surprise Attack.

And there's also the matter of the Magicka cost: as a Stamina build, I can't keep spamming Cloak to get away. I have to conserve my Magicka for other skills too, like Mass Hysteria or Siphoning Attacks and such.

On my Stamina Nightblade, the Cloak is more of a purge or a means to get some burst damage in to me. I rarely use it as an escape skill due to its unreliability!

Now as a Magicka Nightblade (my favorite

), Cloak gets a whole different meaning: it's our way of going into stealth.

You see, we don't wear Medium Armor since we're Spellcasters, we benefit more from wearing Light Armor. But that doesn't give Sneak bonuses like Medium. Furthermore, most Magicka builds are Bretons, Altmer or Dunmer: races without a sneak passive like Khajiit have.

So basically, for a MagBlade: Cloak is an escape skill, but it's also our stealth skill! This is why I'm a staunch protector of leaving Cloak the way it is now because if it gets nerfed, then Magicka Nightblades will lose their means of stealth. This means:

- The Master Assassin passive will become useless, since without stealth we can't get the Weapon/Spell damage buff
- The extra effects on attacks like Concealed Weapon (Stealth Speed bonus + Stun) won't be triggered anymore, greatly reducing a MagBlade's effectiveness

Now, I did make a suggestion in the past to remove the abusable element from Cloak: Infinite Cloaking for MagBlades. And I feel that's the only tweak/change that Cloak should receive. Just to reiterate my suggestion:

- If the Nightblade's Magicka Regen is lower than the Cloak cost, then nothing changes since that NB can't cloak infinitely
- If it is higher than the Cloak Cost, then the NB Magicka Regen should be reduced by a certain %

That's the only change to Cloak I feel should happen. After all, like I said in another thread: Cloak has many viable counters:

- Dragonknight: Ash Cloud
- Sorcerer: Bolt Escape, Mines, Liquid Lightning
- Nightblade: Mass Hysteria, Piercing Mark
- Templar: Luminous Shards
- Weapons: Bombard, Volley, Steel Tornado,...
- Alliance War: Caltrops, Flare
- Guild: Radiant Magelight (though this one needs buffing)
- Alchemy: Detect potions
- possibly others too, but there are the ones on top of my head

Next argument:

A Nightblade's passives are too strong!

You know what I think of when someone mentions this?

The passive that most people mention when they want Nightblades nerfed is the passive called Refreshing Shadows, which increases our HP, Magicka and Stamina Regen with 15% at rank 2.

Seems nice, but it's not as powerful as one might think.

My Health Regen (on my MagBlade) is a measly 214 and my Stamina is 611. So ppl are actually complaining about me having 28 extra Health Regen and 79 extra Stamina Regen? My Magicka regen is a bit better (1348), since I'm a Magicka build but really? That little bit of extra regen is worth crying over?

And meanwhile, Sorcerer's can buff their Spell Damage to over 3k while I have to be stealthed to get that amount (and I only have that amount for 1 attack). Sorcerer's can reduce the Stamina, Magicka and Ultimate costs of their abilities while increasing their Magicka Regen as well

Dragonknights have pretty epic sustain with their Earthen Heart passives while Templars can increase their Weapon Damage and Spell Resist with 1 passive?

Point being: every class has their own powerful passives. Hence the image above -> the pot is blaming the kettle for being black. Other classes are blaming the NB for having OP passives while have have pretty OP passives as well.

Ambush and Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon

Now Surprise Attack and Concealed Weapon spam is understandable: it's a powerful stealth based attack that can also be used to weave and anim cancel with. And more importantly: Unlike Funnel Health, it cannot be reflected by a DK's Scales (for the MagBlades)

However, Ambush is problematic: a Gap Closer that can root a player for a second. And it can be spammed.

Thing is, this is not a Nightblade fault. Every Gap Closer in the game can now be spammed due to the Dodge Roll & Stam Block nerfs!

In their infinite wisdom and complaining, the whiners convinced ZOS to add these nerfs to the game since they couldn't stand perma-blockers and Stam builds from continuously dodging their attacks. But that has given way to Gap Closer spam, since ppl can now just spam those attacks and be certain of closing the distance before hitting them with their most powerful attacks.

Ambush is a bit of an instant Gap Closer, with Major Empower and a root added to it. Nightblades can now just spam that attack all the time until players can no longer dodge or block it.

If you ask me? I think Bolt Escape shouldn't have gotten the 50% Cost increase with each consecutive use of the skill, Ambush should've.That way StamBlades (or SpamBlades) would have to use it only as a sneak attack or a non-spammable Gap Closer. Making smarter use of the skill instead of wildly spamming it until the enemy runs out of Stamina.

Why it shouldn't be nerfed further? See below

I got ganked, I hate Nightblades. NERF THEM TO THE GROUND!

Each class has its own playstyle:

- Dragonknight: straight in-your-face melee combat
- Sorcerer: ranged combat with spells
- Templar: support
- Nightblade: ganking Assassination

So obviously, in the case of Nightblades, They deserve the means to one-shot or two-shot people since it's their job! Each class should have an identity == being good at something and having the means to efficiently pull it off.

What I mean with this is that every Stamina and Magicka build should be made equally powerful, yet at the same time have this one strong point about them (for the Nightblade it's obviously ganking). This way, if ppl don't like to be pigeonholed into 1 single role, they can still fight on even ground with the others without making use of that strong point. This is NOT me saying that NB alone should get something strong like this

Nobody likes to be ganked, and I'm pretty sure 95% of the NB-haters out there are NB-haters because of this.

There are too many Nightblades in Cyrodiil, nerf them so they'll disappear

You know why there are so many of them? Simply put: BANDWAGONERS!

When ppl see a NB ganking someone (killing in 1 or 2 hits), then they automatically assume that the NB is an "easy kills"-class. Furthermore, a lot of players who are fed up with their DK and Templar being nerfed also make the switch to this class, since it's the only class that got fixed instead of nerfed.

If you had asked when the game came out of beta which class was the one you saw the most in Cyrodiil, you'd have gotten Dragonknight as the answer. Now the answer would be Nightblade since they are now "the King of Cyrodiil".

But then ofc the cold hard truth sinks in when those ppl realize that NB is not as easy as it seems. Before I played NB, I had a DK and a Sorc. I got killed plenty of times by NB and I thought they were OP too. But then I rolled one myself and I took back everything I said about them being OP.

That's why a lot of Nightblades are easy kills: bandwagoners who expect to get easy kills using their "OP" class, but end up being easy kills themselves.

And it's also easy for bandwagoners since Class Updates only happen once every 6 months or so. It gives them plenty of time to reroll to the next FOTM.

Conclusion?

There are plenty of other reasons that ppl want to see NB nerfed, but these are the one I hear the most. If you ask me, I think NB is in a good position now, but not OP at all (maybe slightly in the case of Ambush).

Right now, they are the perfect template for the other classes to be based upon:

- Nightblades can run viable Stamina and Magicka builds
- They have their identity, their job and the means to do said job
- They have a learning curve -> they are not "go to Cyrodiil as a NB == easy mode)

3. What am I trying to prove with this thread?

Several things actually...

For starters, I'm trying to prevent this little thing called FOTM.

Situation Beta:

- Dragonknights were the top class in PvP
- They also ran viable Magicka builds
- Nightblades were the worst since they were broken

Then several DK nerfs, whining and gameplay changes later...

Situation Now:

- Nightblades are the top class in PvP
- They also run viable Magicka builds
- Templars are the worst since they are broken

It's a little something called "Flavor of the Month" (FOTM) that is caused by the continuous whining of the playerbase.

If the complainers had adapted instead of complaining back then, Dragonknight wouldn't have been nerfed and Nightblade would be equal to them. We'd have been one step closer to class balance (which is impossible to achieve, but we'd have been closer)

And now everyone wants NB nerfed? So it can be something like this instead?

Situation Holier-Than-Thou:

- Templars will be the top class in PvP
- They also run viable Stamina builds
- Dragonknights will be the worst since they are going to get broken

And then in an act of pure hypocrisy, every Templar will say "L2P", "Git Gud" and "Templar is not OP"?

The second thing I'm trying to accomplish is that every legit Nightblade (like myself, who play the class because we love the class itself or the playstyle) doesn't have to suffer because of the complainers.

To give you guys an idea: I have spent over 7 months on my MagBlade. I've collected every Skyshard, done every quest, have done so much research, horse lvls, etc, ... with this char and now I'm PvPing with him (currently on hold until I've grinded collected more mats for better v16 gear)

And there are so many others out there who don't deserve to see their favorite characters nerfed because some ppl have a problem with this class.

The DKs can attest to this. I bet many of them lament the fact that their Stam DKs have been weakened and are harder to play now (tho they still are powerful opponents

) and that Mag DK are a rarity now. They didn't like their class nerfed so badly, and neither will any other class.

Stop being so selfish by begging ZOS for nerfs
Be more compassionate people, and let us enjoy this game the way we all like to

And that brings me to the last point: class balance. It's impossible to achieve, but we're not going to get any close to it by nerfing everything that "seems OP".

Right now, ZOS needs to spend less time on the NB (no buffing and no nerfing) and more on fixing the issues with Templar (broken skills and making Stamplar something beautiful again).

I mean, they deserve all the love they can get from ZOS. And their focus should be to bring the other classes up to the same lvl as the Nightblade.

Fix/buff Templar, Unnerf DK, Tweak Sorc and leave NB alone

This was quite the post to type, and quite a wall of text too. But I hope sincerely that everyone can understand the points I'm trying to make here, that I have reached out to all of you for to be a bit more compassionate, and to ZOS so that they can do the right thing in the end.

And especially a big "Thank you" if you've read all of this. Feel free to discuss this in a constructive manner, and let's try to get ZOS to improve this game that will benefit us all (less QQ, more ^^ )

Thanks
Tryxus

Didgerion · January 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

Cloak is too powerful
Surprisingly, on my Stamina Nightblade, I find Cloak to be nothing more than a Purge skill, not an escape skill. True, I can halt the fight for about 2.9 seconds max, but the main purpose of the Cloak as a StamBlade is to get rid of the DoT.

Your post is too long but let me teach you how you can use your cloak on stamina NighBlade:
Beside of what you've mentioned already:
1. You can cloak and the meteor wrecking blow and other abilities will miss the target.
2. While cloaked you can do an instant powerful and cheap Surprise Attack which in addition to that applies a debuf and it is a CC combo.
3. 2.9 seconds is enough to cast a heal a buff and a CC opening (yeah that surprise attack)
4. 2.9 seconds keeps you immune from any incoming damage
5. 2.9 seconds will help you gain positioning advantage
6. cloak gives you a major armor buf
7. I'm sure the list does not stop here....like your points can go in here
8. And if you use drinks and tripots then your stamina NB can use cloak as an escape as well

And yeah a skillful NB will make sure to use all 1-7 advantages at once while cloaked.

Tryxus · January 2016

avid_mdb16_ESO wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Cloak is too powerful
Surprisingly, on my Stamina Nightblade, I find Cloak to be nothing more than a Purge skill, not an escape skill. True, I can halt the fight for about 2.9 seconds max, but the main purpose of the Cloak as a StamBlade is to get rid of the DoT.

Your post is too long but let me teach you how you can use your cloak on stamina NighBlade:
Beside of what you've mentioned already:
1. You can cloak and the meteor wrecking blow and other abilities will miss the target.
2. While cloaked you can do an instant powerful and cheap Surprise Attack which in addition to that applies a debuf and it is a CC combo.
3. 2.9 seconds is enough to cast a heal a buff and a CC opening (yeah that surprise attack)
4. 2.9 seconds keeps you immune from any incoming damage
5. 2.9 seconds will help you to gain positioning advantage
6. cloak gives you a major armor buf
7. I'm sure the list does not stop here....like your points can go in here
8. And if you use drinks and tripots then your stamina NB can use cloak as an escape as well

And yeah a skillful NB will make sure to use all 1-7 advantages at once while cloaked.

True, I mentioned that in a way in my long post

Cloak can be used to halt combat, like dodging certain attacks. It can also be used for extra burst as well with Surprise Attack.

Point being tho: it's not a reliable escape move on a StamBlade. It's more for purging and burst, which is why I brought that up when ppl complain about NB being OP due to this move.

Forestd16b14_ESO · January 2016

Funny thing is when DKs were top there were post similar to this saying "were not OP every one else needs to L2P" only difference is that was back when ZOS actually cared about balancing now they just want ideas for costumes instead of ideas for balancing hence why the NB are OP and have yet to be nerfed.

All you NB can make post and threads about how not OP and every one else just needs to L2P but doesn't change the truth that NB are the most powerful class with some of the most broken and or OP skills (depending on who you ask) and as long as they have that power players will use them abuse them and cause endless imbalancing issues and rage.

Here's a graph if you don't understand.

--> Night blade class (top level divine powers)

--> Sorcerer class (right behind NB maybe a few tweaks here and there)

--> Dragon Knight class (only way to use them in pvp is to exploit broken stuff such as the infa tank build)

--> Templar class (do I really need a reason to explain why there down here?)

Tryxus · January 2016

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Funny thing is when DKs were top there were post similar to this saying "were not OP every one else needs to L2P" only difference is that was back when ZOS actually cared about balancing now they just want ideas for costumes instead of ideas for balancing hence why the NB are OP and have yet to be nerfed.

All you NB can make post and threads about how not OP and every one else just needs to L2P but doesn't change the truth that NB are the most powerful class with some of the most broken and or OP skills (depending on who you ask) and as long as they have that power players will use them abuse them and cause endless imbalancing issues and rage.

Here's a graph if you don't understand.

--> Night blade class (top level divine powers)

--> Sorcerer class (right behind NB maybe a few tweaks here and there)

--> Dragon Knight class (only way to use them in pvp is to exploit broken stuff such as the infa tank build)

--> Templar class (do I really need a reason to explain why there down here?)

And this basically tells me you haven't read anything, you just assumed that I'm trying to defend NB

What I mentioned was that there are 2 skills the NB has that can be abused in a way: Cloak by the MagBlade and Ambush by the StamBlade. The Cloak is a bit of a difficult fix due to it being fragile and the only means of stealth for the MagBlade. Ambush, however, is OP but then again every Gap Closer in the game is due to the Dodge Roll and Stam Block nerfs. It's not our fault that skill is OP, but it does need smth to prevent it from being spammed.

And if you had looked at several of the counterarguments I provided for why the NB "seems OP", you would've understood why I'm trying to prevent the FOTM from repeating itself. That instead of DK->NB->??? we'd get 4 evenly matched classes in the end

Tryxus · January 2016

And another thing I'd like to add:

NB are strong, there's no doubt about. Are they OP? Maybe, maybe not

But the thing is, NB have many good things about them now. That's why I provided those counterarguments in the first place: the fact that many of the good things the NB has now are indeed justified. They just need a bit of tweaking here and there to have the abusable element removed from them

And if ZOS rlly wants to get closer to Class Balance, they need to stop listening to nerf-sayers. NB are strong, but they don't need nerfing. The other classes need to be brought to the same lvl.

- less crying from the NB
- it'll bring DK and Temps back to Cyrodiil
- no more FOTM

bikerangelo · January 2016

Don't worry, I read most of it.

Ffastyl · January 2016

Honestly? Nightblade is the most balanced and versatile class I've played. Of Templar, Dragonknight and Nightblade, Nightblade has the most viable builds. It's so much more balanced compared to Templar and Dragonknight that I reflexively want to believe it's overpowered. Especially in this imbalanced meta, the ability to buff Damage stats without a weapon skill opens up combinations I have not used since Update 5, almost 2 years ago. Namely Sword & Shield and Bow. That weapon combination is a versatile and fun setup I used a long time ago as a hybrid Templar still learning the ropes of ESO's combat. Now? I have to use a Greatsword and Shield for Momentum, the Damage buff and passive healing it provides is nigh impossible to replace.

I was there when Dragonknights were FotM and Templars had more defensive skills and no executes - Templar was a fun class. The 50% Miss Chances both classes had from defensive abilities was imbalanced but to remove that in conjunction with tweaking the other defensive abilities? We have the state Templars are in now. Dragonknights, admittedly, are a more complex matter. Many additions and balances to the game, from snare/root immunity to ability tweaks to Battle Spirit buffs combine to drastically weaken Dragonknights. Some of them were good calls, some debuffs needed absent counters; so lets focus on restoring Dragonknight and Templar not to their past selves but to viable, versatile states.

Sorcerers suffer from a lack of versatility too. While Templar and Dragonknight more so from being robbed of their signature power, Sorcerers, by their archetype, were and are pigeonholed into kiting mage builds.

Some questions to ask when considering class states:

Can I make builds consisting of only class abilities that are viable and enjoyable?
Is a certain weapon type required to fulfill a certain role (shield for tanking, two-hander for DPS, etc.)?
Is a certain weapon type needed to be viable at all?
Is there a reflect or ranged attack?
Is there a charging attack?
Is there an instant cast melee attack?
Is there a skill that can force the target to drop block (unblockable CC)?
Are there armor buffing, healing and evasion/mobility defensive abilities?
Does this class's signature power have viable and accessible counters?
Are there "must have" abilities for the class that make it viable or can it stand on its own?

I can tell you now: Nightblade is the closest class to not require a weapon type for any role; Sorcerers lack an instant cast melee attack; Templars lack an unblockable CC; Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Templars are missing defensive abilities; Dragonknights and Sorcerers are missing charging attacks (Bolt Escape is mobility and Fiery Grip's height restrictions make it unusable on most terrain); and Templars need Biting Jabs and/or Breath of Life to be viable currently.

So, let's leave Nightblades be (except for Ambush) and get the other classes on par with Nightblade!

leepalmer95 · January 2016

Did you really state refreshing shadows isn't great?

Your playing your magblade wrong if you only have 1300 regen, 600 stamina regen?

Use tri drink, magblades usually have 2k mag regen and 1k~ stam regen.

So am i complaining about the fact nb's get free 300 M regen and 150 stam regen with some health? Yes.

Vamp gives 10% stam and mag and that comes with a whole lot of weaknesses meanwhile nb's get a more powerful version for free?

Dk's have earthen heart which is 5% of their max stamina per cast, even on a stam dk it's only about 1.5k per cast and even then magicka is too useful for wings etc..., battle roar isn't that effective since IC and it can't really be counted as sustain and it rely's on high costing ultimates. Dk have no good class sustain built it, no regen or reduction.

Templars , 4% stamina and magicka costs is so far below the 15% it's not funny.

Sorc have some magicka regen, not as much as nb's though and they have a 15% ult reduction which isn't as great as you think, it doesn't even compare to a nb's insane ult generation with their op 50 cost ult.

Therium104 · January 2016

NB needs a nerf in pvp. They just ended up way over tuned due to some issues at release of the game. I am sure the class will be nerfed or rather fixed soon. It is not the end of the world and frankly NB take so little skill it will be healthy for the game to balance this class.

Alucardo · January 2016

Nightblades crashed lord fengrush's stream. Please nerf.

dsalter · January 2016

i can see where your coming from, and i agree with most of it but some things on NB really do need nerfed if we wanna bring the rest up to par else everything but NB will be equal.

main points i'd bring up is;

Ambush: either nerf it's cost via increases (as you suggested which tbh is my less preferred method) or give it the 8m minimum range requirement to be able to be used allowing it to be a gap closer as intended. tho increase all other "charges" to 11m (excluding toppling which should also be 8m) so that class gap closes are superior.

ulti's need a slight cost increase, this is debatable.

Cloak: this was a tricky one but i feel the duration needs to be nerfed to 2 seconds OR keep it as it us but reduce the dot removal amount to 1 but gives the NB a guaranteed 1sec unbreakable invis so that said NB can use his class talents correctly.
Disable cloak from dodging ultimate projectiles (Soul beam of death, Meteor) or rather buff the same ultimate projectiles to be unavoidable. either is fine. as currently Cloak is a safety net for avoiding the best abilities. but dont worry i also feel meteor shouldn't be reflect-able. but with these changes i expect meteor to be slightly weaker, to compensate for it being unavoidable.

the regen passives: you have to admit 15% in all passive regens that stacks with the major regen buffs is kind of over the top. reduce these to 10% BUT also make the passive count as the 3 minor regen buffs so you cannot benefit from outside minor regen buffs

other then the points listen above i feel the Nightblade is THE most perfected class on the board hands down, and other classes should be put in line with this standard of balance.

Therium104 · January 2016

DKs needed a nerf at release. Vampires and bat swarm needed a nerf. Now NB needs a nerf. It is not the end of the world. NB are so grossly OP now I doubt ZOS can nerf them enough to make the class no longer viable. LOL

CP5 · January 2016

Ffastyl wrote: »

Honestly? Nightblade is the most balanced and versatile class I've played. Of Templar, Dragonknight and Nightblade, Nightblade has the most viable builds. It's so much more balanced compared to Templar and Dragonknight that I reflexively want to believe it's overpowered. Especially in this imbalanced meta, the ability to buff Damage stats without a weapon skill opens up combinations I have not used since Update 5, almost 2 years ago. Namely Sword & Shield and Bow. That weapon combination is a versatile and fun setup I used a long time ago as a hybrid Templar still learning the ropes of ESO's combat. Now? I have to use a Greatsword and Shield for Momentum, the Damage buff and passive healing it provides is nigh impossible to replace.

I was there when Dragonknights were FotM and Templars had more defensive skills and no executes - Templar was a fun class. The 50% Miss Chances both classes had from defensive abilities was imbalanced but to remove that in conjunction with tweaking the other defensive abilities? We have the state Templars are in now. Dragonknights, admittedly, are a more complex matter. Many additions and balances to the game, from snare/root immunity to ability tweaks to Battle Spirit buffs combine to drastically weaken Dragonknights. Some of them were good calls, some debuffs needed absent counters; so lets focus on restoring Dragonknight and Templar not to their past selves but to viable, versatile states.

Sorcerers suffer from a lack of versatility too. While Templar and Dragonknight more so from being robbed of their signature power, Sorcerers, by their archetype, were and are pigeonholed into kiting mage builds.

Some questions to ask when considering class states:
Can I make builds consisting of only class abilities that are viable and enjoyable?

Is a certain weapon type required to fulfill a certain role (shield for tanking, two-hander for DPS, etc.)?

Is a certain weapon type needed to be viable at all?

Is there a reflect or ranged attack?

Is there a charging attack?

Is there an instant cast melee attack?

Is there a skill that can force the target to drop block (unblockable CC)?

Are there armor buffing, healing and evasion/mobility defensive abilities?

Does this class's signature power have viable and accessible counters?

Are there "must have" abilities for the class that make it viable or can it stand on its own?

I can tell you now: Nightblade is the closest class to not require a weapon type for any role; Sorcerers lack an instant cast melee attack; Templars lack an unblockable CC; Dragonknights, Sorcerers and Templars are missing defensive abilities; Dragonknights and Sorcerers are missing charging attacks (Bolt Escape is mobility and Fiery Grip's height restrictions make it unusable on most terrain); and Templars need Biting Jabs and/or Breath of Life to be viable currently.

So, let's leave Nightblades be (except for Ambush) and get the other classes on par with Nightblade!

Exactly, as ZOS went around balancing the game over time they restricted classes into fewer and fewer options while also opening options and providing buffs to one class. Nightblades are currently OP (out-performing) all of the other classes because they have these options, they have an amazing list of skills and passives that all come together to support many different and potent playstyles. It becomes frustrating when the class that is currently the strongest and most varied is also its own counter, then people get sick of seeing so many of the class and we get what we have today. You deserve a few more insightful's, and ZOS should really consider more frequent balance passes so we don't end up in the stagnant and volatile kind of situation we are in today.

revonine · January 2016

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Did you really state refreshing shadows isn't great?
Vamp gives 10% stam and mag and that comes with a whole lot of weaknesses meanwhile nb's get a more powerful version for free?

By that logic class passives shouldn't be a thing at all since you all are getting them for free. Anyway's vamp shouldn't even be in this discussion this is about class balance. Vamp is it's own discussion entirely as they have their own issues.

Tryxus · January 2016

bikerangelo wrote: »

Don't worry, I read most of it.

Heh thx

For those who rlly are tldr: Nightblades aren't as bad or OP as most ppl seem to think, and to prevent the next FOTM from happening they shouldn't be nerfed. Class Balance is more important than nerfing

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Did you really state refreshing shadows isn't great?

Your playing your magblade wrong if you only have 1300 regen, 600 stamina regen?

Use tri drink, magblades usually have 2k mag regen and 1k~ stam regen.

So am i complaining about the fact nb's get free 300 M regen and 150 stam regen with some health? Yes.

Vamp gives 10% stam and mag and that comes with a whole lot of weaknesses meanwhile nb's get a more powerful version for free?

Dk's have earthen heart which is 5% of their max stamina per cast, even on a stam dk it's only about 1.5k per cast and even then magicka is too useful for wings etc..., battle roar isn't that effective since IC and it can't really be counted as sustain and it rely's on high costing ultimates. Dk have no good class sustain built it, no regen or reduction.

Templars , 4% stamina and magicka costs is so far below the 15% it's not funny.

Sorc have some magicka regen, not as much as nb's though and they have a 15% ult reduction which isn't as great as you think, it doesn't even compare to a nb's insane ult generation with their op 50 cost ult.

No, I stated that while it is a good passive, every other class also has great passives.

And no, my MagBlade is a Vampire wearing Julianos: definitely not playing it wrong in Cyro. My Regen may be lower, but at the cost of 26% extra Spell Crit and 600 Spell Damage. It's a killer in IC, small scale and 1vs1

And I'm not comfortable using drinks since it will make my MagBlade even squishier, I prefer extra stats with food. I'm using Siphoning Attacks to compensate for the low Regen, but that requires the use of a skill slot... It's an endles cycle here, there's not definite advantage I can get. I'll always have to sacrifice something to boost smth else (also part of why I claim NB aren't OP at all)

Vamps need a buff, true. But that's a discussion for another time...

Oh, and Sorcs get extra Mag Regen along with extra spell damage, reduced Ultimate cost, Stamina and Magica costs too.
And a Sorc's Ultimate Overload: 64 cost and they can keep firing it for 12k hits each. Makes a NB's Soul Harvest seem pretty lame compared to that. Or a DK's Corrosive Armor: duration may have been nerfed, but it's still an 8 sec God Mode they have.

And here you are defending and claiming things about your DK's passives, just like I did with my NB's passives. Yet at the same time we both are right: they have good sides but also bad ones. A DK's passives aren't as weak as you think: they've been tailored to the DK in such a way that they are rather good. A NB's passives, while strong, also have their weaknesses.

Hence the image of the Pot blaming the Kettle. Some ppl claim our passives make us OP, but they forget about the strength of their own passives.

Therium104 wrote: »

NB needs a nerf in pvp. They just ended up way over tuned due to some issues at release of the game. I am sure the class will be nerfed or rather fixed soon. It is not the end of the world and frankly NB take so little skill it will be healthy for the game to balance this class.

Little skill? I loled.

It may not be the end of the world (quite frankly, IDC what happens to the NB class. If it get's nerfed, I'll keep playing and wrecking ppl with it)

But telling ZOS to focus on nerfing the NB while they need to focus on fixing the Temp and unnerfing the DK is like telling them to forget about Class Balance and just go for the next FOTM

The QQ will continue, the cycle will repeat and we'll be right back where we are now.

Laranoye · January 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

You know why there are so many of them? Simply put: BANDWAGONERS!

But then ofc the cold hard truth sinks in when those ppl realize that NB is not as easy as it seems. Before I played NB, I had a DK and a Sorc. I got killed plenty of times by NB and I thought they were OP too. But then I rolled one myself and I took back everything I said about them being OP.

That's why a lot of Nightblades are easy kills: bandwagoners who expect to get easy kills using their "OP" class, but end up being easy kills themselves.

And it's also easy for bandwagoners since Class Updates only happen once every 6 months or so. It gives them plenty of time to reroll to the next FOTM.

Your whole argument is invalid... You blatantly just said you done exactly what you don't want others to do... lol.

revonine · January 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

The QQ will continue, the cycle will repeat and we'll be right back where we are now.

I called this back when IC first launched and people moaned about the sewers being NB paradise while for some reason refusing to slot AOE, AOE which more often than not has a wider range than many many of the halways in said sewers. But I digress. I agree with what your saying but ZOS' track record on this is pretty clear. Right now I'm taking bets for the next FOTM.

Laranoye · January 2016

revonine wrote: »

Right now I'm taking bets for the next FOTM.

Templar I bet (If their fixes and changes work...).. lol But I am already a Templar... Id just like that here first so i'm not jumping on any bandwagon!

Tryxus · January 2016

Laranoye wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

You know why there are so many of them? Simply put: BANDWAGONERS!

But then ofc the cold hard truth sinks in when those ppl realize that NB is not as easy as it seems. Before I played NB, I had a DK and a Sorc. I got killed plenty of times by NB and I thought they were OP too. But then I rolled one myself and I took back everything I said about them being OP.

That's why a lot of Nightblades are easy kills: bandwagoners who expect to get easy kills using their "OP" class, but end up being easy kills themselves.

And it's also easy for bandwagoners since Class Updates only happen once every 6 months or so. It gives them plenty of time to reroll to the next FOTM.

Your whole argument is invalid... You blatantly just said you done exactly what you don't want others to do... lol.

Your post is invalid: I rolled a NB before IC, the time most ppl believed they became "OP". And i like classes with Illusion magic (reason MagBlade is now my main), it was also to see how strong they really were

Keep this discussion civil plz. No need to be ignorant

Laranoye · January 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

Laranoye wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

You know why there are so many of them? Simply put: BANDWAGONERS!

But then ofc the cold hard truth sinks in when those ppl realize that NB is not as easy as it seems. Before I played NB, I had a DK and a Sorc. I got killed plenty of times by NB and I thought they were OP too. But then I rolled one myself and I took back everything I said about them being OP.

That's why a lot of Nightblades are easy kills: bandwagoners who expect to get easy kills using their "OP" class, but end up being easy kills themselves.

And it's also easy for bandwagoners since Class Updates only happen once every 6 months or so. It gives them plenty of time to reroll to the next FOTM.

Your whole argument is invalid... You blatantly just said you done exactly what you don't want others to do... lol.

Your post is invalid: I rolled a NB before IC, the time most ppl believed they became "OP". And i like classes with Illusion magic (reason MagBlade is now my main), it was also to see how strong they really were

Keep this discussion civil plz. No need to be ignorant

NB have been OP for a long time now. Especially Magblade.. I just want you to be honest with yourself.. ;P
Even your sig says you have 3 NB..

Tryxus · January 2016

Laranoye wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Laranoye wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

You know why there are so many of them? Simply put: BANDWAGONERS!

But then ofc the cold hard truth sinks in when those ppl realize that NB is not as easy as it seems. Before I played NB, I had a DK and a Sorc. I got killed plenty of times by NB and I thought they were OP too. But then I rolled one myself and I took back everything I said about them being OP.

That's why a lot of Nightblades are easy kills: bandwagoners who expect to get easy kills using their "OP" class, but end up being easy kills themselves.

And it's also easy for bandwagoners since Class Updates only happen once every 6 months or so. It gives them plenty of time to reroll to the next FOTM.

Your whole argument is invalid... You blatantly just said you done exactly what you don't want others to do... lol.

Your post is invalid: I rolled a NB before IC, the time most ppl believed they became "OP". And i like classes with Illusion magic (reason MagBlade is now my main), it was also to see how strong they really were

Keep this discussion civil plz. No need to be ignorant

NB have been OP for a long time now. Especially Magblade.. I just want you to be honest with yourself.. ;P
Even your sig says you have 3 NB..

NB weren't this strong before IC

1 is a NB I made when I was still new, experimenting with various classes: Sorc > DK > Sorc > NB

2 is my (soon to be ) Enchanter, Alchemist and Provisioner

3 is my attempt at seeing if StamBlades are OP (and so far not seeing it)

Don't judge me by the chars I play, and don't deducd my motives from them either. Honestly, I'd be sad if my MagBlade became useless in Cyro. But I'd be even sadder if ZOS wastes this opportunity they have to balance the classes and go back to FOTM

Laranoye · January 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

3 is my attempt at seeing if StamBlades are OP (and so far not seeing it)

Stamblades are fine, Not as good survivability as magblade but does a lot more burst damage, With right builds/Skill.

Brrrofski · January 2016

Even as a Stam nb cloak is still a useful escape tool. You're using it wrong if you don't think it is.

Only thing I think is lotus fan and ambush need a minimum range. People shouldn't be on topos you spamming a "gap closer" and locking your skills. With a min range I can control it.

Apart from that, NBs don't need much done imo

xellink · January 2016

I agree with the OP. we need to create counters, not nerfs

Laranoye · January 2016

xellink wrote: »

I agree with the OP. we need to create counters, not nerfs

I have a counter, If they fix the Templar, Ill wreck the faces of all nightblades haha. Even though I already do... Prbabaly haven't been skilled NB's though tbf.

Therium104 · January 2016

Laranoye wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

3 is my attempt at seeing if StamBlades are OP (and so far not seeing it)

Stamblades are fine, Not as good survivability as magblade but does a lot more burst damage, With right builds/Skill.

Both Stam and Magic NB are grossly OP easy mode classes that have no business being in the game at there current state. It is ridiculous people are defending NB.

Witar · January 2016

Tl;dr
But nightblades irritate me beyond reason in pvp. You should not be able to mash your head on the keyboard and kill almost anyone except godly magicka sorcs.

eliisra · January 2016

Laranoye wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Laranoye wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

You know why there are so many of them? Simply put: BANDWAGONERS!

But then ofc the cold hard truth sinks in when those ppl realize that NB is not as easy as it seems. Before I played NB, I had a DK and a Sorc. I got killed plenty of times by NB and I thought they were OP too. But then I rolled one myself and I took back everything I said about them being OP.

That's why a lot of Nightblades are easy kills: bandwagoners who expect to get easy kills using their "OP" class, but end up being easy kills themselves.

And it's also easy for bandwagoners since Class Updates only happen once every 6 months or so. It gives them plenty of time to reroll to the next FOTM.

Your whole argument is invalid... You blatantly just said you done exactly what you don't want others to do... lol.

Your post is invalid: I rolled a NB before IC, the time most ppl believed they became "OP". And i like classes with Illusion magic (reason MagBlade is now my main), it was also to see how strong they really were

Keep this discussion civil plz. No need to be ignorant

NB have been OP for a long time now. Especially Magblade.. I just want you to be honest with yourself.. ;P
Even your sig says you have 3 NB..

This I dont get. How more OP? Magblade feels like the much weaker counterpart in current meta. With all the cc, knock downs, gap closer immobilize spam, ridiculously powerful snares and bombarding d-bags from every direction, you're not getting out of anything on a magicka build. Much less getting Cloak of.

You need major expedition and to dodge...like a lot of dodge, if you want to get out of ground AoE and cc&snares and try to cloak. Stamina NB has the tools. Much better choice when fighting outnumbered.

Stamblade have better burst because physical dmg lacking CP counter + sneak attacks for easy ganking. Stamina ignores Harness Magicka/Dampen Magic and reflects. Stamina NB's aren't susceptible Shield Breaker. There's a reason most Nightblades aren't magicka builds.

Cant say I had problems with magblades since back in 1.6, when they could more or less oneshot the unaware with Proxi combos. But that did require a high level of skill and coordination.

coolermh · January 2016

Say what you want stam dk and magika sorc will beat a stam nb almost everytime in a 1on1....

found1779 · January 2016

All i know is i'm tired of stupid nightblades and there cloak move surprise attack. why is this being allowed? no matter how you look at it the class is op and needs a nerf nerf the hell out of it zenimax. and here i thought yall where smart but you aint your dumb for continuing to let this happen. yall think everyone on console will just be happy cause your adding text chat. well wrong that was just a little of what is wrong atm. nightblades need to be priority 1 nerf them NOW!!!!!!!! damn it. Or give every class a surprise attack cloak like they got. All i keep fighting is *** nightblades no matter what i'm doing in pvp yall better fix this now before nightblades are the only class people are playing. cause as of right now that's what's happening. everyone is choosing nightblades to play. It's gotten so bad that when i do a bounty mission if it's anything besides nightblades it takes forever to finnish.in a way it's disrupting game play.FIX THIS PROBLEM