Manoekin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Of these, which shall players use to combat instant cast BOL that goes through walls/levels/floors?

I was about to reply to @Manoekin with something similar. Am I supposed to hunt down the Templar 2 stories below me while fighting off outnumbered odds just to use major defile? Come on now.

Why would you defile the healer?

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I still don't understand why people see this as a nerf to Templars. I mean, a guy who mains and mastered this class wants the LoS check on BoL. That's saying something.

Because he's not a PvE healer, Aluc.

and....because healing is already cut in half by the battle spirit debuff....sooooo, Idk....hasn't been a problem until fenshush started crying about it lol

People have been crying silently in game about Templar heals for a while now, myself included. We just never voiced it. I'm tired of fighting groups with invisible healers.

Use a heal debuff. If you still can't kill them you weren't going to kill them if the healer was on the field or not. If the healer isn't in LOS they're not getting that heal debuff off of their ally. This is the kind of *** you make fun of new players for saying honestly. It's like complaining about predictable damage when you're not mitigating any of it... drop a nova, a veil, or block for crying out loud. I saw someone mention WoW... in WoW everyone moves the same speed and can't spam gap closers on you, so a healer can at least attempt to kite. A templar healer right now is a sitting duck. Wait, they decided to use LOS to their advantage? Quick, complain on the forums!

This *** is getting silly.

For those reading this here are the following skills that offer major defile:

- standard (m) [DK]
- reverberating bash [stamina]
- lethal arrow [stamina]
- claws of anguish [wearwolf]
- death stroke [NB]
- Dark flare. [Templar]

Of these only 3 are instant cast. One requires an ulti transformation. One required to target a location and is an AOE circle. One is not instant cast, a channel spell, with a high arc and hard to AC.

Of these, which shall players use to combat instant cast BOL that goes through walls/levels/floors?

Any of them. I'm not here to tell you what skills to use on your bar. Any magicka build is capable of running one of the stamina skills, and you listed three classes that have class heal debuff skills. It's not even a choice of weapon for 3 out of 4 classes... If you refuse to place useful skills on your bar don't whine about the things they counter. It's like a DK complaining about projectiles honestly.

Major defile is really good when things are fairly even, like in 1v1s especially. When someone is getting hit with multiple heals - healing debuff doesnt do you much good. Its all about bursting, utility and debuffs matter very little most of the time.

Manoekin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Of these, which shall players use to combat instant cast BOL that goes through walls/levels/floors?

I was about to reply to @Manoekin with something similar. Am I supposed to hunt down the Templar 2 stories below me while fighting off outnumbered odds just to use major defile? Come on now.

Why would you defile the healer?

Minno wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Valen_Byte wrote: »

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I still don't understand why people see this as a nerf to Templars. I mean, a guy who mains and mastered this class wants the LoS check on BoL. That's saying something.

Because he's not a PvE healer, Aluc.

and....because healing is already cut in half by the battle spirit debuff....sooooo, Idk....hasn't been a problem until fenshush started crying about it lol

People have been crying silently in game about Templar heals for a while now, myself included. We just never voiced it. I'm tired of fighting groups with invisible healers.

Use a heal debuff. If you still can't kill them you weren't going to kill them if the healer was on the field or not. If the healer isn't in LOS they're not getting that heal debuff off of their ally. This is the kind of *** you make fun of new players for saying honestly. It's like complaining about predictable damage when you're not mitigating any of it... drop a nova, a veil, or block for crying out loud. I saw someone mention WoW... in WoW everyone moves the same speed and can't spam gap closers on you, so a healer can at least attempt to kite. A templar healer right now is a sitting duck. Wait, they decided to use LOS to their advantage? Quick, complain on the forums!

This *** is getting silly.

For those reading this here are the following skills that offer major defile:

- standard (m) [DK]
- reverberating bash [stamina]
- lethal arrow [stamina]
- claws of anguish [wearwolf]
- death stroke [NB]
- Dark flare. [Templar]

Of these only 3 are instant cast. One requires an ulti transformation. One required to target a location and is an AOE circle. One is not instant cast, a channel spell, with a high arc and hard to AC.

Of these, which shall players use to combat instant cast BOL that goes through walls/levels/floors?

Any of them. I'm not here to tell you what skills to use on your bar. Any magicka build is capable of running one of the stamina skills, and you listed three classes that have class heal debuff skills. It's not even a choice of weapon for 3 out of 4 classes... If you refuse to place useful skills on your bar don't whine about the things they counter. It's like a DK complaining about projectiles honestly.

A risk of using stam cost of saved for dodge roll, break free, NB fear, etc? We forget how purgable that defile debuff is?

The tools are there, true. But hardly whining if I'm simply pointing out the best of those skills revolve around stam/NB and how AC friendly they are.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Of these, which shall players use to combat instant cast BOL that goes through walls/levels/floors?

I was about to reply to @Manoekin with something similar. Am I supposed to hunt down the Templar 2 stories below me while fighting off outnumbered odds just to use major defile? Come on now.

Not just that, it heavily favors NB and stamina builds. Those are the instant cast abilities therefore the most efficient especially with AC (a mechanic supported by ZOS and used by players heavily.)
The only skill from a magicka standpoint is dark flare, which is only available by the very same class we are asked to combat? And can be reflected?

Balance inefficiency.

Edit: standard is magicka too. But only for DK's most of whom now roll stam.

Healing debuffs are not *that* rare considering you can make your weapon enchantment disease.

desease dmg procs do not "defile"...

Disease procs reduced healing. Poison only does poison.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Too many replies to reply - Ill update with a video later. Feel free to tune in tonight if youd like to submit some live feedback.

And there it is.

You don't get paid to discuss this stuff here. So you want us to watch and listen for your holy response. No thanks. Not going to pay you to irritate me lol

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Its not really an idea to heal debuff stack overall on things - its more about trying to introduce something that doesnt pin a nerf to templars or any healing in general but allowing people to actually kill players theyre knocking down to begin with. 1 healer can counter 1 DPS trying to focus someone that doesnt even CC break or defend himself. Everyone has their opinions - Im not going to go into much further. I plan to cover it in a bit more detail in a video.

Kinda sounds like this is your first MMORPG lol. Healers, in almost every game on the planet where the role exist, can save one cc'ed guy that's attacked by only one player.

In other commercial MMORPG's you have healing trees with powerful shield- and burst cooldowns. You can have a full raid of derps mashing on someone and the healer saves him with some 30 sec cd uber heal beam. But here it's like so outrageous when the healer saves someone from a single guy according to you?

Might as well remove healers completely, if they cant save people in danger or a dude being knocked around by your Wrecking Blows. Than again, you probably love the concept of a game without healers.

This is why this discussion gets so aggressive. Opinions are worlds apart. You have all these people coming from single player games and shooters, totally against the concept of a traditional healer, ruining their kills. Than the MMO veterans, who played tanky heal bots in PvP for over a decade of gaming, they ofc expect that archetype/playstyle to be viable here to.

Like, you might as well ask for cloak and stealth to get nerfed, those responses would be equally aggressive. You're messing with MMORPG archetypes

PenguinInACan wrote: »

People need to stop focusing on healing as something that needs to be nerfed outright. Adding a LoS check on single target heals would contribute to raising the skill floor (which is already extremely low) for non experienced PvP healers. As someone that heals every night in PvP I agree that there needs to be a seriously re-balancing with how heals work in PvP. Should that be addressed before the mag/stam DPS imbalance? Probably not. Should people be able to 1vX or small group v large group against a group with competent healers? No. Thats the point of healers. They heal. This post is just one possible step in a direction where balance COULD be possible.

Thank you for actually understand the point of the OP, and not the *** storm that this thread has turned into by people who don't have reading comprehension.

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

In other commercial MMORPG's you have healing trees with powerful shield- and burst cooldowns. You can have a full raid of derps mashing on someone and the healer saves him with some 30 sec cd uber heal beam. But here it's like so outrageous when the healer saves someone from a single guy according to you?

The problem in ESO specifically is that you're not aiming the heal, you don't even need to know there's someone about to die. You don't even need to be in the same room as them. The game just automatically handles all that for you. So, unlike other MMOs you're not actually being rewarded for smart play.

That is the difference.

The only skill needing aim in this game is Jabs, incidently a Templar skill, would 't you know. I suggest that all skills be aim only and let's start with über two shot in half a second snipes and poison arrows, then WB, crystals and so on. Oh btw Shards/Spear need aim too.

Takllin wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

People need to stop focusing on healing as something that needs to be nerfed outright. Adding a LoS check on single target heals would contribute to raising the skill floor (which is already extremely low) for non experienced PvP healers. As someone that heals every night in PvP I agree that there needs to be a seriously re-balancing with how heals work in PvP. Should that be addressed before the mag/stam DPS imbalance? Probably not. Should people be able to 1vX or small group v large group against a group with competent healers? No. Thats the point of healers. They heal. This post is just one possible step in a direction where balance COULD be possible.

Thank you for actually understand the point of the OP, and not the *** storm that this thread has turned into by people who don't have reading comprehension.

It would have been far smarter to first address raising the skill level of all easy mode one win button builds such as one button WB, Steel Tornado and Ambush spammers. Trust me, if you've been doing heals you'd know it takes some skill and talent to keep people alive in the middle of battle, trying to stay alive, dodging OP attacks, purging yourself keeping an eye on your teams' health bars to time the heals not to loose one, manage your resources and still trying to defend yourself with some sort of DPS. That some use heals like the rest use WB and other easy mode skills does not encourage insulting an entire class of this game.

If some sort of self-examination or acknowledgement of the skewed state of the DPS and even offer some DPS and survivability balancing to healer builds and class before complaining over heals it might just have fallen in more fertile soil. But no.

Insulting the very group you want to nerf with reading comprehension, brainless unskilled one button spamming and other formulations is so out of line since one button spamming is much of a signum for DPS dealers, it's contra productive.

I have zero incitament to listen to the insults and less so to give a thumbs up from a healing perspective to such a nerf without seeing anything suggested about the imbalanced OP state the DPS builds currently are in.

Idinuse wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

People need to stop focusing on healing as something that needs to be nerfed outright. Adding a LoS check on single target heals would contribute to raising the skill floor (which is already extremely low) for non experienced PvP healers. As someone that heals every night in PvP I agree that there needs to be a seriously re-balancing with how heals work in PvP. Should that be addressed before the mag/stam DPS imbalance? Probably not. Should people be able to 1vX or small group v large group against a group with competent healers? No. Thats the point of healers. They heal. This post is just one possible step in a direction where balance COULD be possible.

Thank you for actually understand the point of the OP, and not the *** storm that this thread has turned into by people who don't have reading comprehension.

It would have been far smarter to first adress raising the skill level of all easy mode one win button builds such as one button WB, Steel Tornado and Ambush spammers. Trust me, if you've been doing heals you'd know it takes some skill and talent to keep people alive in the middle of battle, trying to stay alive, dodging OP attacks, purging yourself keeping an eye at your teams' health bars to time the heals not to loose one and still trying to defend yourself with some sort of DPS. That some use heals like the rest use WB and other easy mode skills does not encourage insulting an entire class of this game.

If some sort of self-examination or aknowledgemet of the skewd state of the DPS and even offer some DPS balancing to healer builds and class before complaining over heals it might just have fallen in more fertile soil. But no.

Insulting the very group you want to nerf with reading cmprehension, brainless unskilled one button spamming and other formulations is so out of line since one button spamming is much of a signum for DPS dealers, it's contra productive.

I have zero incitament to listen to the insults and less so to give a thumbs up from a healing perspective to such a nerf without seeing anything suggested about the imbalanced OP state the DPS builds currently are in.

lol - pretty much every DPS gap closes, dps, and executes.. If theyre good they will weave as well.

PenguinInACan wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

People need to stop focusing on healing as something that needs to be nerfed outright. Adding a LoS check on single target heals would contribute to raising the skill floor (which is already extremely low) for non experienced PvP healers. As someone that heals every night in PvP I agree that there needs to be a seriously re-balancing with how heals work in PvP. Should that be addressed before the mag/stam DPS imbalance? Probably not. Should people be able to 1vX or small group v large group against a group with competent healers? No. Thats the point of healers. They heal. This post is just one possible step in a direction where balance COULD be possible.

Thank you for actually understand the point of the OP, and not the *** storm that this thread has turned into by people who don't have reading comprehension.

It would have been far smarter to first adress raising the skill level of all easy mode one win button builds such as one button WB, Steel Tornado and Ambush spammers. Trust me, if you've been doing heals you'd know it takes some skill and talent to keep people alive in the middle of battle, trying to stay alive, dodging OP attacks, purging yourself keeping an eye at your teams' health bars to time the heals not to loose one and still trying to defend yourself with some sort of DPS. That some use heals like the rest use WB and other easy mode skills does not encourage insulting an entire class of this game.

If some sort of self-examination or aknowledgemet of the skewd state of the DPS and even offer some DPS balancing to healer builds and class before complaining over heals it might just have fallen in more fertile soil. But no.

Insulting the very group you want to nerf with reading cmprehension, brainless unskilled one button spamming and other formulations is so out of line since one button spamming is much of a signum for DPS dealers, it's contra productive.

I have zero incitament to listen to the insults and less so to give a thumbs up from a healing perspective to such a nerf without seeing anything suggested about the imbalanced OP state the DPS builds currently are in.

lol - pretty much every DPS gap closes, dps, and executes.. If theyre good they will weave as well.

Agreed. The skill curve for DPS/Healing right now seems to be pretty on par with each other. Unfortunately the floor is set very low for both forms of playing.

I've seen so many people complaining about "Oh FENGRUSH is a 1vX-er and only complains about heals when he is losing" and unfortunately i've fallen into that demographic myself a few times. But the main issue people fail to realize is that IF someone that has hit (or is close to) the ceiling on DPS or healing makes a constructive post on how to make that ceiling higher to reach, its not a petty attempt to make themselves better. Its an attempt (no matter how misguided people think it is) to balance SOMETHING. The only prospect of balance we've seen for PvP recently is siege.

No matter how much people may disagree with the popular streamers and youtubers, they are the people that have the loudest voice. All egos aside, the PvP in this game will not get fixed without them and debating the "nerfing" of templars in a thread about LoS of ALL single target heals is only going to make devs see a toxic thread and close it.

Preach Brother Preach! Can I get an AMEN?!

Idinuse wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Idinuse wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

People need to stop focusing on healing as something that needs to be nerfed outright. Adding a LoS check on single target heals would contribute to raising the skill floor (which is already extremely low) for non experienced PvP healers. As someone that heals every night in PvP I agree that there needs to be a seriously re-balancing with how heals work in PvP. Should that be addressed before the mag/stam DPS imbalance? Probably not. Should people be able to 1vX or small group v large group against a group with competent healers? No. Thats the point of healers. They heal. This post is just one possible step in a direction where balance COULD be possible.

Thank you for actually understand the point of the OP, and not the *** storm that this thread has turned into by people who don't have reading comprehension.

It would have been far smarter to first adress raising the skill level of all easy mode one win button builds such as one button WB, Steel Tornado and Ambush spammers. Trust me, if you've been doing heals you'd know it takes some skill and talent to keep people alive in the middle of battle, trying to stay alive, dodging OP attacks, purging yourself keeping an eye at your teams' health bars to time the heals not to loose one and still trying to defend yourself with some sort of DPS. That some use heals like the rest use WB and other easy mode skills does not encourage insulting an entire class of this game.

If some sort of self-examination or aknowledgemet of the skewd state of the DPS and even offer some DPS balancing to healer builds and class before complaining over heals it might just have fallen in more fertile soil. But no.

Insulting the very group you want to nerf with reading cmprehension, brainless unskilled one button spamming and other formulations is so out of line since one button spamming is much of a signum for DPS dealers, it's contra productive.

I have zero incitament to listen to the insults and less so to give a thumbs up from a healing perspective to such a nerf without seeing anything suggested about the imbalanced OP state the DPS builds currently are in.

lol - pretty much every DPS gap closes, dps, and executes.. If theyre good they will weave as well.

Agreed. The skill curve for DPS/Healing right now seems to be pretty on par with each other. Unfortunately the floor is set very low for both forms of playing.

I've seen so many people complaining about "Oh FENGRUSH is a 1vX-er and only complains about heals when he is losing" and unfortunately i've fallen into that demographic myself a few times. But the main issue people fail to realize is that IF someone that has hit (or is close to) the ceiling on DPS or healing makes a constructive post on how to make that ceiling higher to reach, its not a petty attempt to make themselves better. Its an attempt (no matter how misguided people think it is) to balance SOMETHING. The only prospect of balance we've seen for PvP recently is siege.

No matter how much people may disagree with the popular streamers and youtubers, they are the people that have the loudest voice. All egos aside, the PvP in this game will not get fixed without them and debating the "nerfing" of templars in a thread about LoS of ALL single target heals is only going to make devs see a toxic thread and close it.

Templars have an entire class tree dedicated to healing when we could have something so much more awarding, but we should be quiet about anything making that class skill line less effective and not take it personal? I am actually fully supporting the OP on condition that the entire healing tree is removed from the Templar class and replaced with a top performing skill line that includes competing DPS, AoE, escape, mobility and CCs with all the insta spamming and CC immunity breaking and stun locking of others. That way if anyone wants heals there is the Restoration staff skill line. And as an added bonus no Templars would ever be "debating the "nerfing" of templars" in a thread about healing. I for one would stay far away from healing, even if it means ditching my main since April 2014 to get three class trees that actually deliver something for me other than catering to DPS survivability, while barely staying alive myself.

I am still amazed that the prio one in this balancing is going after heals instead of working from the other end, or rather from both ends.

I completely agree that devoting an entire class skill tree to healing is unnecessary but that isnt what OP is talking about. Its not about templar specific heals. It's about heals as a whole. True, templars have the highest burst heals available BECAUSE of their class specific skills, but that should not be removed in favor of dps.

DPS needs to be adjusted well before any heal adjustments are made, making the templars support class tree not a necessary evil and something that can be utilized to add to DPS through further skill adjustments. I would hope most people can understand that adjusting the heal mechanics is something that needs to happen AFTER the adjustment of the stam/mag dps imbalance is addressed.

Here is reading comprehension 101 of the original post …


The original post translates to …

(In my opinion,) line of sight heals are absolutely necessary now.

{Name drop Fengrush to give weight to his opinion.}

{Give an amusing (to me) example of how the lack of line of sight hinders game play}

[The example amuses me as either the assaulting group can pop barrier and retreating maneuvers and run up to the top of the tower and 12 vs. 2 those healers or leave their own healers outside and wall healing (the very thing being addressed) and take advantage that their own healers are safe in this example.]

Then ends with a conclusion that this game mechanic does not make sense to him as there is no control over who is healed and that the healer should be at risk to the damage dealers if they want to heal someone.



This is not a matter of comprehension. It is a matter of disagreement of opinion on what the addition of such a check would add to the game. From the way I see it, the check would only serve to get the healer in the crosshairs quicker which would result in quicker group deaths (after said healer gets rolled over).



The underlying issues (in regards to PvP) in my opinion are:
1) Damage output is too high
2) Healing output is too low
3) Vigor is imbalanced
4) There should be no healing abilities outside Templar’s restoring light line and the restoration staff. This reflects a choice in class (magicka Templar) or ‘sacrificing’ the 2nd weapon selection in favor of a healing.

There are a few other issues that I think need to be addressed along side this. A big one that I'd like to point out (which is a bug) is at times if you pop the Templar healing ultimate the accrued ultimate doesn't get used up, so you can cast the skill multiple times in a row.