LoS on heals

blabafat

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Radolfus

I didn't even read this yet, but i agree with whatever you said.

Zheg

Part of the problem blab is everyone says "spread out" during fights, ball groups bad, yadda yadda ... but if that advice were to be followed, there is simply no realistic way for a healer to do that with LoS based heals. Once your group is spread, the number of people that are going to be broken from LoS by the sometimes silly structural designs in cyrodiil will make it so that heals just aren't reliable - at all. If you give incentives to use skills like combat prayer over BoL because one is sight/directional based and the other is easier to use, resto staff ends up being better than templar heals, and the class role of being best healer no longer applies. Healing needs a much larger redesign than adding LoS checks to heals, because only doing that latter will just end up breaking crap - particularly with the insanely high damage numbers flying around in game right now.

Alcast

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

Lenikus

Well, so you want people to actually have line of sight when healing ?
Damm PvE healers will suffer.

Derra

Zheg wrote: »

Part of the problem blab is everyone says "spread out" during fights, ball groups bad, yadda yadda ... but if that advice were to be followed, there is simply no realistic way for a healer to do that with LoS based heals. Once your group is spread, the number of people that are going to be broken from LoS by the sometimes silly structural designs in cyrodiil will make it so that heals just aren't reliable - at all. If you give incentives to use skills like combat prayer over BoL because one is sight/directional based and the other is easier to use, resto staff ends up being better than templar heals, and the class role of being best healer no longer applies. Healing needs a much larger redesign than adding LoS checks to heals, because only doing that latter will just end up breaking crap - particularly with the insanely high damage numbers flying around in game right now.

Once they introduce nametags healers will be able to heal with los on their heals and it should be introduced.

timidobserver

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

BRogueNZ

I agree though I'm not confident in how well they could implement the alternative

Takllin

If we need to LoS damage, heals need to be LoS as well.

Shelgon

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

Smart heals on its own already contribute to the lag significantly. Think about it, you're in a group of 24, you press Breath of Life, BoL doesn't heal the players closest to you, but the ones who have the least health, so it has to check everyone's health in a 28 meter radius, then decide which 2 players have the lowest health, and on top of that, apply passives like Mending which increase healing depending on the severity of the health loss, and the one that increases healing for those standing in your Purifying ritual or rune focus. LOS checks would not be nearly as computationally expensive as BoL is on it's own.

I would like LoS checks for BoL, but I think if it were changed to a Cone instead of a Circle, it would clear up a lot of problems, and in turn make it more difficult to be a healer rather than just sitting in the back spamming one button.

Cinbri

LoS needed but it will increase lags a bit as we know.
Another way to fix it - zos should finally fix tempalrs to do anything else except only healings, then we would see much less healbots.
and another one - buff Honor the Dead. with current meta even after previous "buff" it became totally useless in Cyro.
And i will never tired to ask - bring back old Rushed Ceremony animation so battlefield won't transform into shinny rainbow everywhere.

timidobserver

Shelgon wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

Smart heals on its own already contribute to the lag significantly. Think about it, you're in a group of 24, you press Breath of Life, BoL doesn't heal the players closest to you, but the ones who have the least health, so it has to check everyone's health in a 28 meter radius, then decide which 2 players have the lowest health, and on top of that, apply passives like Mending which increase healing depending on the severity of the health loss, and the one that increases healing for those standing in your Purifying ritual or rune focus. LOS checks would not be nearly as computationally expensive as BoL is on it's own.

I would like LoS checks for BoL, but I think if it were changed to a Cone instead of a Circle, it would clear up a lot of problems, and in turn make it more difficult to be a healer rather than just sitting in the back spamming one button.

BoL has been a smart heal since the game launched. Lag didn't become an issue until recently. I am not willing to blame smart heals for lag. I do not support turning BoL into Combat Prayer in another failed effort to address lag.

Mending has already taken a heavy nerf in the last update. As long as the DW slaugher passive exists I am okay with mending.

We have heard Brian Wheeler explicitly state that LoS checks contribute to lag, thus my comment in this thread that adding LoS to BoL will contribute to lag.

Keiryan

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

Shelgon

Keiryan wrote: »

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

so what heals do your templars use besides breath of life and rapid regen? Ritual of Rebirth? Remembrance? The morph of purge that no one uses? blood altar?

timidobserver wrote: »

Shelgon wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

Smart heals on its own already contribute to the lag significantly. Think about it, you're in a group of 24, you press Breath of Life, BoL doesn't heal the players closest to you, but the ones who have the least health, so it has to check everyone's health in a 28 meter radius, then decide which 2 players have the lowest health, and on top of that, apply passives like Mending which increase healing depending on the severity of the health loss, and the one that increases healing for those standing in your Purifying ritual or rune focus. LOS checks would not be nearly as computationally expensive as BoL is on it's own.

I would like LoS checks for BoL, but I think if it were changed to a Cone instead of a Circle, it would clear up a lot of problems, and in turn make it more difficult to be a healer rather than just sitting in the back spamming one button.

BoL has been a smart heal since the game launched. Lag didn't become an issue until recently. I am not willing to blame smart heals for lag. I do not support turning BoL into Combat Prayer in another failed effort to address lag.

Mending has already taken a heavy nerf in the last update. As long as the DW slaugher passive exists I am okay with mending.

We have heard Brian Wheeler explicitly state that LoS checks contribute to lag, thus my comment in this thread that adding LoS to BoL will contribute to lag.

I wasn't saying that BoL is causing lag right now, but compared to LoS, its more expensive on the server side, so yeah, i agree that adding LoS checks would increase the lag. You just made it seem like Breath of Life on it's own isn't as bad as adding a new LoS check.

Vilestride

All combat to be single target no AoE, heals should have to be targetet at your allies like you have to target an enemy. kgo!

timidobserver

Shelgon wrote: »

Keiryan wrote: »

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

so what heals do your templars use besides breath of life and rapid regen? Ritual of Rebirth? Remembrance? The morph of purge that no one uses? blood altar?

timidobserver wrote: »

Shelgon wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

Smart heals on its own already contribute to the lag significantly. Think about it, you're in a group of 24, you press Breath of Life, BoL doesn't heal the players closest to you, but the ones who have the least health, so it has to check everyone's health in a 28 meter radius, then decide which 2 players have the lowest health, and on top of that, apply passives like Mending which increase healing depending on the severity of the health loss, and the one that increases healing for those standing in your Purifying ritual or rune focus. LOS checks would not be nearly as computationally expensive as BoL is on it's own.

I would like LoS checks for BoL, but I think if it were changed to a Cone instead of a Circle, it would clear up a lot of problems, and in turn make it more difficult to be a healer rather than just sitting in the back spamming one button.

BoL has been a smart heal since the game launched. Lag didn't become an issue until recently. I am not willing to blame smart heals for lag. I do not support turning BoL into Combat Prayer in another failed effort to address lag.

Mending has already taken a heavy nerf in the last update. As long as the DW slaugher passive exists I am okay with mending.

We have heard Brian Wheeler explicitly state that LoS checks contribute to lag, thus my comment in this thread that adding LoS to BoL will contribute to lag.

I wasn't saying that BoL is causing lag right now, but compared to LoS, its more expensive on the server side, so yeah, i agree that adding LoS checks would increase the lag. You just made it seem like Breath of Life on it's own isn't as bad as adding a new LoS check.

No you made it seem like that. I only said that, based on what Brian has told us about the lag we are experiencing, adding new LOS checks could cause more lag. My concern is adding new lag. Dealing with already existing lag is an entirely different discussion. If they can do LOS checks on BoL without making lag even worse I don't care.

blabafat

Keiryan wrote: »

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

@Keiryan Not a 1vX complaining thread. It's about adding layers of skill

I'm sure it is more complicated, but implying that I targeted K hole or other competitive PvP groups doesn't make sense. Unless your healers do as I described, bringing up "K-Hole or any competitive PvP group" is irrelevant.

No LoS checks on healing just doesn't make any sense. I can sit 3 floors above my group and still heal them? I can be inside a keep healing my group members who are outside? Does that really sound like great design?

FENGRUSH

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

Yea and I dont think 3 templars should be able to spam BOL as long as they do and have a huge amount of armor to be unkillable either - but thats another story too I guess.

I dont want to just 'blanket nerf templars / BOL' - that would be a wrong way of going about what Ive said on stream.

I dont like how this patch is compared to the last for smaller scale pvp. People can go unpunished in fights for VERY POOR PLAY or just simply being outplayed will not offer you anything in benefit. It comes back to numbers far too much. You used to be able to burst people you knocked down very quickly - but now BOL saves these players, even if they CC break slow or not at all, even if its at the start of the fight and they have full stam. Theyre just not there mentally, but it doesnt matter, because theres 2 BOLs happening, and a healing springs being refreshed. And when that idiot gets up, he will stare into the floor healing springs as well in case I go for a different healer.

Healing is broken with the damage nerf - templars BOL being able to spam indefinately for as strong as it is with the CP system is a greusome offender. Its not BOL fault, or templar - its the shift in the meta. I like longer fights, not shorter ones, but the result is that healing takes over.

What is the solution? I dont know - I think a seperate healing debuff for players who are "knocked down". So you cant BOL spam players that have been successfully knocked down by one of the disables you use to you know... kill people?

50% reduce healing, make it stack on disease if you wanna do that. Game needs something in that regard - something that wont kill templar or one skill in particular, because its not the skil or classes im concerned with.. its what happens in small scale PVP.

For people to say 'its a 1vX problem' or something - is pretty ignorant. Its not just a 1vX problem, its smaller group PVP problem, and it scales as numbers do as well.

---

As far as LOS healing, it would make all fights a lot more interesting in keeps/towers/IC yes. As far as performance strain, I dont think LOS checks are nearly as bad as when you use springs per second or purge which is literally grabbing the <X> amount of targets in range of you and prioritizing a list on who to hit. Here is 32 players, these 6 will be healed... next tick... etc.

The particle effects from purge and springs is insane - you have to be blind to not see performance *** itself when people have used this, before this patch too even. A lot of less competant ball groups use these skills too, and also have the most players.

Recremen

I'm caught between "this is a cool, emergent strategy and it's kind of fun to go seeking out the opposing group's healers" and "this is @(*%#&amp;$ butts why can you do this???"

FENGRUSH

blabafat wrote: »

Keiryan wrote: »

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

@Keiryan Not a 1vX complaining thread. It's about adding layers of skill

I'm sure it is more complicated, but implying that I targeted K hole or other competitive PvP groups doesn't make sense. Unless your healers do as I described, bringing up "K-Hole or any competitive PvP group" is irrelevant.

No LoS checks on healing just doesn't make any sense. I can sit 3 floors above my group and still heal them? I can be inside a keep healing my group members who are outside? Does that really sound like great design?

Agree very much - and I dont think this is targeted at anyone. Its just about making PVP more skilled, smart healing is already doing a lot of work for you in this game. If you havent healed in an MMO where you literally have to either target the char on screen during combat, or from your group menu, consider yourselves lucky. This game was designed for consoles and thats why you have smart healing. I dont mind that or ask to redesign it - I want it to make sense within the context of the game.


This is a compounded issue with healing. The real pain is BOL was never meant to be used as aggressively as it is today. But it is... because of CP, cost reductions and gear, you can make a build to spam BOL without being bursted like you would have been in 1.6. This is important to consider.

Its also important to consider when youre fighting 1v4 even, a templar is pretty much healing most of the group everytime he heals. If you throw in a second healer or even a healing ward coverage - youre in a pretty crappy situation. Generally a player will try to disengage and use LOS to his advantage. This doesnt apply with a healer pounding through walls.

I kite people around towers, fight on the backside killing some guy whos getting healed the moment i uppercut him into air to full HP by someone that doesnt even know he exists or hes in combat. Just because ---> in tower, spam BOL for next minute.

Its a joke really. Id love to see heals limited to groups but that will not happen. ZOS is too coddle-every-player-in-game friendly.

Lexxypwns

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

Yea and I dont think 3 templars should be able to spam BOL as long as they do and have a huge amount of armor to be unkillable either - but thats another story too I guess.

I dont want to just 'blanket nerf templars / BOL' - that would be a wrong way of going about what Ive said on stream.

I dont like how this patch is compared to the last for smaller scale pvp. People can go unpunished in fights for VERY POOR PLAY or just simply being outplayed will not offer you anything in benefit. It comes back to numbers far too much. You used to be able to burst people you knocked down very quickly - but now BOL saves these players, even if they CC break slow or not at all, even if its at the start of the fight and they have full stam. Theyre just not there mentally, but it doesnt matter, because theres 2 BOLs happening, and a healing springs being refreshed. And when that idiot gets up, he will stare into the floor healing springs as well in case I go for a different healer.

Healing is broken with the damage nerf - templars BOL being able to spam indefinately for as strong as it is with the CP system is a greusome offender. Its not BOL fault, or templar - its the shift in the meta. I like longer fights, not shorter ones, but the result is that healing takes over.

What is the solution? I dont know - I think a seperate healing debuff for players who are "knocked down". So you cant BOL spam players that have been successfully knocked down by one of the disables you use to you know... kill people?

50% reduce healing, make it stack on disease if you wanna do that. Game needs something in that regard - something that wont kill templar or one skill in particular, because its not the skil or classes im concerned with.. its what happens in small scale PVP.

For people to say 'its a 1vX problem' or something - is pretty ignorant. Its not just a 1vX problem, its smaller group PVP problem, and it scales as numbers do as well.

---

As far as LOS healing, it would make all fights a lot more interesting in keeps/towers/IC yes. As far as performance strain, I dont think LOS checks are nearly as bad as when you use springs per second or purge which is literally grabbing the <X> amount of targets in range of you and prioritizing a list on who to hit. Here is 32 players, these 6 will be healed... next tick... etc.

The particle effects from purge and springs is insane - you have to be blind to not see performance *** itself when people have used this, before this patch too even. A lot of less competant ball groups use these skills too, and also have the most players.

I think the solution is to slot a heal debuff

FENGRUSH

Lexxypwns wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

No ETA

Need to stack more BoL spamming healers. Because cant see where those darn heals go!

I once tried to kill 3 well built BoL Spamming S&B Heavy Armor healers.....aint gonna happen.

I don't really think you should be able to easily kill 3 well built and well played players that are wearing heavy armor, but that is beside the point of this thread.

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.


This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

Fengrush wants Templar healing itself to be nerfed from what I've heard/read from him, which I disagree with, but I would be fine with LOS. However, bare in mind that you are asking for LOS checks to be added to a skill that is spammed fairly frequently in large battles. In other words, this change would probably contribute to lag significantly.

Yea and I dont think 3 templars should be able to spam BOL as long as they do and have a huge amount of armor to be unkillable either - but thats another story too I guess.

I dont want to just 'blanket nerf templars / BOL' - that would be a wrong way of going about what Ive said on stream.

I dont like how this patch is compared to the last for smaller scale pvp. People can go unpunished in fights for VERY POOR PLAY or just simply being outplayed will not offer you anything in benefit. It comes back to numbers far too much. You used to be able to burst people you knocked down very quickly - but now BOL saves these players, even if they CC break slow or not at all, even if its at the start of the fight and they have full stam. Theyre just not there mentally, but it doesnt matter, because theres 2 BOLs happening, and a healing springs being refreshed. And when that idiot gets up, he will stare into the floor healing springs as well in case I go for a different healer.

Healing is broken with the damage nerf - templars BOL being able to spam indefinately for as strong as it is with the CP system is a greusome offender. Its not BOL fault, or templar - its the shift in the meta. I like longer fights, not shorter ones, but the result is that healing takes over.

What is the solution? I dont know - I think a seperate healing debuff for players who are "knocked down". So you cant BOL spam players that have been successfully knocked down by one of the disables you use to you know... kill people?

50% reduce healing, make it stack on disease if you wanna do that. Game needs something in that regard - something that wont kill templar or one skill in particular, because its not the skil or classes im concerned with.. its what happens in small scale PVP.

For people to say 'its a 1vX problem' or something - is pretty ignorant. Its not just a 1vX problem, its smaller group PVP problem, and it scales as numbers do as well.

---

As far as LOS healing, it would make all fights a lot more interesting in keeps/towers/IC yes. As far as performance strain, I dont think LOS checks are nearly as bad as when you use springs per second or purge which is literally grabbing the <X> amount of targets in range of you and prioritizing a list on who to hit. Here is 32 players, these 6 will be healed... next tick... etc.

The particle effects from purge and springs is insane - you have to be blind to not see performance *** itself when people have used this, before this patch too even. A lot of less competant ball groups use these skills too, and also have the most players.

I think the solution is to slot a heal debuff

This is taking that into account - Im talking about stacking debuffs on top of that. Either that, or alter the damage/healing ratios we came into this patch with. Skill in combat is at an all time low with huge resources and safety nets all over the place for players. Its being dumbed down a bit too much.

Keiryan

blabafat wrote: »

Keiryan wrote: »

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

@Keiryan Not a 1vX complaining thread. It's about adding layers of skill

I'm sure it is more complicated, but implying that I targeted K hole or other competitive PvP groups doesn't make sense. Unless your healers do as I described, bringing up "K-Hole or any competitive PvP group" is irrelevant.

No LoS checks on healing just doesn't make any sense. I can sit 3 floors above my group and still heal them? I can be inside a keep healing my group members who are outside? Does that really sound like great design?

Sorry I must have miscommunication, I never meant to imply that this post was targeted at any specific group, I was mentioning it for the fact that even in the current state of how heals work, healing is far more than just mashing one button from a hidey hole and hoping people live.

I totally agree that healing needs a reform but again, it would need to be the entire system that had to be redone in my opinion... but I can't comment much because I've personally never healed for any large length of time. .

DignifiedMouse

Honestly, tbh i agree. Kinda cheap that people , for example, can heal through walls at faction spawn points in the sewers. As well as being inside a keep and healing people outside, etc

blabafat

Keiryan wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

Keiryan wrote: »

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

@Keiryan Not a 1vX complaining thread. It's about adding layers of skill

I'm sure it is more complicated, but implying that I targeted K hole or other competitive PvP groups doesn't make sense. Unless your healers do as I described, bringing up "K-Hole or any competitive PvP group" is irrelevant.

No LoS checks on healing just doesn't make any sense. I can sit 3 floors above my group and still heal them? I can be inside a keep healing my group members who are outside? Does that really sound like great design?

Sorry I must have miscommunication, I never meant to imply that this post was targeted at any specific group, I was mentioning it for the fact that even in the current state of how heals work, healing is far more than just mashing one button from a hidey hole and hoping people live.

I totally agree that healing needs a reform but again, it would need to be the entire system that had to be redone in my opinion... but I can't comment much because I've personally never healed for any large length of time. .

That's no worries.

And yeah, maybe LoS is NOT the solution, but something needs to be done about it.

FENGRUSH

blabafat wrote: »

Keiryan wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

Keiryan wrote: »

No offense but this sort of sounds like a 1vXer complaining thread. Healing K-Hole or any competitive PvP group is more complicated than "standing in the back mashing one button".. like Zheg said it would require a complete over haul of the way healing is done.. not just removing LoS and calling it a day.

Although considering this is ZoS, I can see them screwing it up and doing it anyways.

@Keiryan Not a 1vX complaining thread. It's about adding layers of skill

I'm sure it is more complicated, but implying that I targeted K hole or other competitive PvP groups doesn't make sense. Unless your healers do as I described, bringing up "K-Hole or any competitive PvP group" is irrelevant.

No LoS checks on healing just doesn't make any sense. I can sit 3 floors above my group and still heal them? I can be inside a keep healing my group members who are outside? Does that really sound like great design?

Sorry I must have miscommunication, I never meant to imply that this post was targeted at any specific group, I was mentioning it for the fact that even in the current state of how heals work, healing is far more than just mashing one button from a hidey hole and hoping people live.

I totally agree that healing needs a reform but again, it would need to be the entire system that had to be redone in my opinion... but I can't comment much because I've personally never healed for any large length of time. .

That's no worries.

And yeah, maybe LoS is NOT the solution, but something needs to be done about it.

I think Healing overall is something - like I touched on - that needs to be looked at. But LOS healing is something separate that would simply make things more interesting and strategic from a positioning perspective. When you can heal through walls or just being in a general area and pounding heals, positioning with respect to your group matters less. I think this wont impact the LOS that gets talked about compared to the skills that are hitting a room (30+ targets) offensively or defensively which had LOS checks. BOL isnt that though.

CatchMeTrolling

Lol why is everyone so fixated on nerfing Templars and their healing. Be lucky Templars don't have the same healing abilities I see in other games because smart healing would be the least of your problems and on top of that be lucky we don't have buffs to ward enemy damage for everyone.

The healing in this game is a pure joke and all this will do is promote stacking together even more. I know you can say people are mindlessly spamming heals but chances are if it's a dedicated healer they're watching the groups health bar and others constantly. In in my opinion if your job is to heal then heal all you want.

But it's no wonder no one wants to play healer or Templars, too busy trying to nerf them instead of buffing them. The best Templar skills get nerfed so it doesn't even come as a surprise anymore.

KenaPKK

Zheg wrote: »

Part of the problem blab is everyone says "spread out" during fights, ball groups bad, yadda yadda ... but if that advice were to be followed, there is simply no realistic way for a healer to do that with LoS based heals. Once your group is spread, the number of people that are going to be broken from LoS by the sometimes silly structural designs in cyrodiil will make it so that heals just aren't reliable - at all. If you give incentives to use skills like combat prayer over BoL because one is sight/directional based and the other is easier to use, resto staff ends up being better than templar heals, and the class role of being best healer no longer applies. Healing needs a much larger redesign than adding LoS checks to heals, because only doing that latter will just end up breaking crap - particularly with the insanely high damage numbers flying around in game right now.

Could the group use healers positioning so as to cover the group with heals as they move and LoS their enemies? Could allies also move while being mindful of where their healers are?

I'm playing devil's advocate here. While random BoL spammers *** me off, I do appreciate a good healer using terrain to protect themselves while healing their group.

That said, 1vX should be a viable play style in this game, and heals as they currently are -- primarily BoL -- are pretty brainlessly impeding that right now.

And damage numbers are only insane on a handful of abilities (WB, Overload, leap, etc). For the most part, damage is in a pretty good place compared to mitigation and shielding, especially if some form of physical damage mitigation is added in the near future.

bikerangelo

Honestly, as ironic as "smart healing" is, I don't see a viable way to adjust the mechanic other than to put a debuff timer on any player who receives a BoL heal. For example, a templar casts BoL, it hits a player for 8k with a cooldown of 4 seconds, similar to the debuff on Equilibrium from the Mages Guild tree. That way the skill remains unaffected, the caster can spam it all he wants, but 1 indivdual (including the caster) can only receive a BoL heal every 4 seconds. Making it LoS seems too difficult, since that'd encourage people to ball up in front of a healer as well as potentially introducing more lag. Thoughts?
Edit: it doesn't have to be 4 seconds, just a hypothetical fix.

Manoekin

Remove Templars from the game at this point.

Karamis_Vimardon

*puts tinfoil hat on and stands on soapbox*

There is far, far more to GOOD healing than "spamming BoL". If people went dedicated heals/support instead of pew-pew mode they would know this, but that's not the topic at hand.

*removes hat and steps down*

Instead of a LoS check (More checks, GJ *slow clap*), a debuff would be far better. Got hit by a BoL? It's 50% less effective for 2 seconds. Long enough to gimp spamming, short enough to still be what it's meant to be: an "oh s**t" heal.

I for one would not enjoy yet another nerf to my favoured class along with the GCDs and broken skills already present.