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Champion System Ability Review
-
Amica✭✭✭fist things you should consider is:
1: Taking the developers that manage the in game store and put them onto the champ system.
2: You guys can't even produce stable servers to test the CP system on.
3: Your ability to balance or fix anything to date other than the crown store. Has maybe a 10% success rate if not lower so forgive me if spending more than 5 min considering this seems pointless to me.
4: Scrap the champ system all together, as no company has ever been able to fully balance the system as of yet.
5: If you can't fix the classes you have now, what hope do you really have in even attempting the champ system?
6: Good code is not "clever". It does things in straightforward, obvious ways.
And lastly, this i can not stress enough to the Developers.
7: Have your Developers all read "Clean Code by Robert C. Martin" before you start on the CP system.
Note: If i was to put any real thought into this thread i would say.
"Fix what is already broken, before breaking something else"
The champ system as it is, we can grin and bare for the time being.
Hope it helps :-)NB Shashu of DC
DK William x Wallace of DC
In game @Amica.
"i Thought i was poor having no shoe's, Until i saw a man with no feet"0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyhing you can customize for in cp, you should also be able to customize against.
Example: Bastion increases shield strengt, there should also be a star to increase dmg dealt to shields.
Mighty lets you increase your dmg with physical dmg, but there is no way to decrease dmg taken from physical dmg.
PC EU
PvP only2 -
MrTarkanian48✭✭✭✭Bigger than the CP issues seems to be the way that abilities are set up for each class, and the type of damage they are attributed with which is affected by CP’s. There are a lot of abilities in each class that get tagged as “ability does physical vs magic vs poison vs elemental damage”. Some of them make sense, and some do not.
For example, NB plays pretty well as Stamina or Magicka.
As a Magicka NB all skills are magicka based and have at least one Magicka morph. These play well when invested in large magicka pool and spell damage as well as Thaumaturge CP’s.
A Stamina build also has Ambush, and Surprise attack which synergize with Stam, Weapon Damage, and Mighty CP’s. However an example of problems occur with Killer’s Blade. “Scales of Stamina and Weapon Damage, but does MAGIC damage” Killer’s Blade does not get any buff from Mighty CP’s therefore many use Executioner instead.
DK’s are the worst with these issues. Dark Talons costs Magicka, and does Physical and Elemental Damage…. No way for DK’s to invest there CP’s to be competitive with builds who only need to invest in one CP pool. Even DK’s Stamina morphs (which scale to Stamina and Weapon Damage) still do “Elemental” damage which is unaffected by Mighty.
Perhaps a start would be to eliminate these issues. If an ability uses Stamina, it automatically scales to Stamina and Weapon Damage, weapon crit, and Mighty CP. If it uses magicka, it scales off of Max Magicka, Spell Damage, Spell Crit, and Thaumaturge (combined elemental and magic).
More than anything. Ultimates should not be assigned a particular type of damage. For example, the DK’s “Take Flight” ultimate does “physical damage” therefore hits harder for a stam dk than a magic DK and is influenced by Mighty CP’s but not Thaumaturge. In the same way, NB’s “Soul Harvest” does “magic damage” and hits harder for a Magicka build than a stam. Ultimate damage should scale equally to whichever values are highest between Stam/Mag, Weapon Damage/Spell Damage, Weapon Crit/Spell Crit.
If these were addressed the CP issues may become more straightforward. Some of the bigger issues.
BLUE TREE:
Place Thaumaturge in the Apprentice branch of the CP tree and have Thaumaturge include both Magic and Elemental damage.
Change Mighty to include physical damage, disease, and poison. Make poison scale with Weapon Damage, Max Stamina, weapon critical.
Some people may say keep mighty and poison in the same tree, but separate as Mighty and Poison. For the sake of equality then some people may say keep magic and elemental in the same tree, but separate them into Elemental and Thaumaturge. I would agree, however I think there is a lack of poison attack options to make a standalone poison option viable. In this scenario 95% of people will do as they are now, 100 in Mighty, 66 in precise, 1 in piercing and stick with Focused Aim and Bombard vs. the poison morphs. For this reason it seems combining them would probably make the most sense, unless poison morphs in DW and 2H were introduced.
RED TREE:
The Lady: Have 4 options of resistance. Physical, Poison, Elemental, Magic. This will make people choose to specialize in one or two and be vulnerable to others, or be reasonably resistant to all 4. These resistances would apply to DoTs of that kind, and eliminate the need for Thick Skinned.
Wood Elf Stam NB (PVP)
Redguard Stam Sorc (PVP)
Altmer NB (DPS)
Imperial DK (Tank)
Redguard DK (DPS)
Altmer Templar (Healer)
EP - PS41 -
Mcwoods55✭✭✭I would like to see something added for all players as a new line that allows us to have pets and we can work on them and train them. I know this would be a massive undertaking because you would have to remove summons and modify that set and then add a fourth cp area but I think allowing us the opportunity to strengthen a pet and adapt it to our style of fighting would be amazing..
Maybe as a mage or archer we would want it to be styled more as a tank to keep heat off us or to heal us.
Maybe a tank would want to style it more as a dps or aoe fighter.
We could work with it and feed it and as it fights with us it grows and each level it grows it gets cp... This would be a really cool thing to introduce to those who hit cap 50 after you remove vr. Hey congrats you are level 50 now you get to go get a pet and build it up. Its max level is 50 and you get 100 cp (2 a level) [or something along those lines] to help transform it to your liking.
Another idea is A passive that would be nice is buffs and or potions would last x% longer per level.
One other idea is to remove the 3 sets (Warrior, Mage, Thief) and have 1 and you get to put the cp in any field you want... So if I want to not build up my armor but dump all CPs into reducing magica cost or increase spell dmg I could. Yes that could make a very op mage but then he would be squishy...
2 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THISEdited by Cathexis on January 15, 2016 4:06PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...Edited by Derra on January 15, 2016 8:47PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It would be nice if the maximums from CP and Racial Passives were in the same pool. This would mean that an Argonian has a shot at being as good or nearly as good a fire mage as a Dunmer, for example. I think if the devs can do this, they can also more fairly balance all of the racial attributes, but it would require adding a lot more stars most likely.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...Edited by Derra on January 16, 2016 10:25AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.Tome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series0 -
xAPxZeez✭✭A couple things about bastion.
This is a magicka sorcs bread and butter defense, others get more resists, reducers or cloaks.
Something people forget is that damage shields are halved in pvp and bleed over damage IS NOT REDUCED.
You hit me for 16k and my halved DS is say 9k then 16000 - 9000 = 7000. That is 7000 right to my HP because the damage reduction isn't further checked.
Now I cast my 9k ds and someone does 8k leaving my ds at 1k. Then I get hit for 16000. I then take 15000 damage straight to my health, no reduction from armor etc.
While I agree they can be quite powerful it's not due to bastion.
The real problem in this game is that most class skills are too weak compaired to weapon skills.
Most offer great buffs but little dps.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
Yeah...
That´s why i´m saying befoul is not a counter to blessed and quick recovery.
You say yourself heals are an integral part of almost every build (they are replaced by shields on builds where they are not - i´m also for removing bastion) whereas heal debuffs are a feature that´s not easily accessible. Thanks a lot for repeating what i´ve been saying from the beginning of this conversation...
Edit: @xAPxZeez what you´re describing about dmg not getting mitigated after hitting shields is not the case anymore.Edited by Derra on January 17, 2016 11:09AM<Noricum>
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Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
NecrosIX✭✭The problem with the current champion system is that with enough points, everyone's stars are going to look the same. To prevent this problem, I suggest that at vr 1, get the player to choose a primary, secondary and tertiary role (i.e. DPS, healer or tank). The stars associated with the primary, secondary and tertiary roles will be capped at 30, 20 and 10 percent respectively. This adds an addition layer of customization and helps with the power creep problem. What do you guys think?1
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Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
Yeah...
That´s why i´m saying befoul is not a counter to blessed and quick recovery.
You say yourself heals are an integral part of almost every build (they are replaced by shields on builds where they are not - i´m also for removing bastion) whereas heal debuffs are a feature that´s not easily accessible. Thanks a lot for repeating what i´ve been saying from the beginning of this conversation...
Edit: @xAPxZeez what you´re describing about dmg not getting mitigated after hitting shields is not the case anymore.
@Derra except your saying that is why they need a counter and I'm saying that's why they don't. Love it when people talk down to you while they are being ignorant at the same time.Edited by Cathexis on January 18, 2016 11:42PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
Yeah...
That´s why i´m saying befoul is not a counter to blessed and quick recovery.
You say yourself heals are an integral part of almost every build (they are replaced by shields on builds where they are not - i´m also for removing bastion) whereas heal debuffs are a feature that´s not easily accessible. Thanks a lot for repeating what i´ve been saying from the beginning of this conversation...
Edit: @xAPxZeez what you´re describing about dmg not getting mitigated after hitting shields is not the case anymore.
@Derra except your saying that is why they need a counter and I'm saying that's why they don't. Love it when people talk down to you while they are being ignorant at the same time.
I´m not saying they need a counter. I say they need to be removed because they have no counter and you can´t design one for healing.
This is why you might get the feeling i´m talking down to you. It´s because you´re to ignorant to even follow my train thought over the conversation. Trying to have an argument with someone who does not bother to read nor is able to explain his own train of thought can be tiresome.
And to end this: Can you explain why you feel why somthing that works on a 20% chance every 4s is an adequate counter to something that works every time you press the button for it (with the funny addition that healdebuffs have a counter called purge)?
Because if you can - i´ll admit you´re right. If you can´t well then don´t come here telling me i´m the one being ignorant and talking down to people.
Your theory does not work here. It needs to be active when the player wants it to be active to be a counter. You can not achieve that by the very core design of a rgn procc. That´s why your argument is flawed beyond any chance of repair.Edited by Derra on January 19, 2016 8:47AM<Noricum>
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Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
Yeah...
That´s why i´m saying befoul is not a counter to blessed and quick recovery.
You say yourself heals are an integral part of almost every build (they are replaced by shields on builds where they are not - i´m also for removing bastion) whereas heal debuffs are a feature that´s not easily accessible. Thanks a lot for repeating what i´ve been saying from the beginning of this conversation...
Edit: @xAPxZeez what you´re describing about dmg not getting mitigated after hitting shields is not the case anymore.
@Derra except your saying that is why they need a counter and I'm saying that's why they don't. Love it when people talk down to you while they are being ignorant at the same time.
I´m not saying they need a counter. I say they need to be removed because they have no counter and you can´t design one for healing.
This is why you might get the feeling i´m talking down to you. It´s because you´re to ignorant to even follow my train thought over the conversation. Trying to have an argument with someone who does not bother to read nor is able to explain his own train of thought can be tiresome.
And to end this: Can you explain why you feel why somthing that works on a 20% chance every 4s is an adequate counter to something that works every time you press the button for it (with the funny addition that healdebuffs have a counter called purge)?
Because if you can - i´ll admit you´re right. If you can´t well then don´t come here telling me i´m the one being ignorant and talking down to people.
Your theory does not work here. It needs to be active when the player wants it to be active to be a counter. You can not achieve that by the very core design of a rgn procc. That´s why your argument is flawed beyond any chance of repair.
Whoa I'm not talking down to you at all I'm just pointing out that they have counters, and now you are excluding the skills which do provide consistent healing debuffs because it suits your argument. Not every build is supposed to have on demand healing debuffs - but some do, and those CP improve the capacity of those builds most effectively.
Also with regard to the RNG healing debuff proc - I agree that its inadequate, by its not meant to function as a hard counter for builds that can't incorporate a healing debuff skill. Its supposed to serve as a bonus during long battles where your opponent is low health that can reduce the effectiveness of their recovery. In that regard it still functions as a counter, even if you don't have control over it.
Also saying someones argument is beyond repair doesn't make their argument false.
By the same logic if I say you are a sentient blob of purple goo with average intelligence, you must be one.
This is why it seems like you are talking down to me, because you use language that makes you sound like a DB.
Take for example these comments:@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
My argument makes perfect sense. CP bonuses for healing redux are valid because on demand healing redux skills exist.
You just don't agree. Which for whatever reason, seems to make sense to you - either because you think all builds should have healing redux or because healing redux shouldn't get bonuses from cp - not really sure which because you are constantly flipping between the two.Edited by Cathexis on January 20, 2016 7:07PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.Edited by Derra on January 20, 2016 7:28PM<Noricum>
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Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
I'm not wrong because I'm not trying to prove a point that is inherently untrue. This is not a right wrong discussion.
Its like saying someone is wrong because they like oranges. You can't determine if I like or dislike oranges for me. Just because you think that healing counters are not effective does not inherently make them ineffective.
Not everything available is accessible to all builds, and it shouldn't be. Otherwise every build should have access to things like cloak or bolt escape - but they don't because classes are not inherently designed to be the same as one another.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
That said, I never disagreed with the fundamental idea that certain passives are inherently more or less valuable according to their practicality. That doesn't change the fact that you still have to use healing skills to make the cp passive useful just as you have to use healing redux skills to make the healing redux passive useful.
You could abolish passives that don't apply to all builds and all classes, but to me that doesn't inherently solve the problem since some classes and class specs inherently benefit from class-universal cp passives more than others.
But again that is a factual observation, not a right or wrong discussion.
--and also subsequently balancing cp in a vacuum, something I tried to touch on earlier in the thread.Edited by Cathexis on January 21, 2016 3:09AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong
@Cathexis@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.Edited by Derra on January 21, 2016 8:49AM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
@Derra I never said it was an adequate counter, simply that it was a counter. Fundamentally healing debuffs are a counter to healing buffs. You may recall your initial claim was that healing cp bonuses have no counter, which is false (see here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2587137/#Comment_2587137)
So no I wasn't wrong, you are creating a straw man argument.Edited by Cathexis on January 22, 2016 3:36AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
@Derra I never said it was an adequate counter, simply that it was a counter. Fundamentally healing debuffs are a counter to healing buffs. You may recall your initial claim was that healing cp bonuses have no counter, which is false (see here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2587137/#Comment_2587137)
So no I wasn't wrong, you are creating a straw man argument.
I am not as my statement throughout the conversation (that i did not change) was a counter that is not usable because it has a prerequiste i cant access is no counter.
In theory your argument makes sense, because if you´re looking at blessed and befoul on paper they do counter each other.
However if you put things into practice - which you choose to ignore every time i bring it up - they simply don´t because most builds lack the means to apply the mandatory defile debuff in the first place. Your argument is not logically sound as in:
Builds with defile can access befoul (correct).
Befoul counters blessed/quick recovery (correct).
All builds can counter blessed/quick recovery (wrong).
If it makes you happy: On a completely arbitrairy theoretical level you are right. When playing the game you are not - as only the last step is important.
Healing debuffs minor/major defile are a counter to major/minor mending - both of which have nothing to do with the champion system.
I would be all in favor of adding major/minor mending as a prerequisite for blessed/quick revocery to work though (which would then equal the mechanics currently in place for befoul).Edited by Derra on January 22, 2016 8:56AM<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Brrrofski✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If they add physical resist, everyone will be ranged casters. Guarantee it. Why risk up close fighting when people are mitigating if? That to me has always been the trade off.
I have stam and magica users equally so this isn't a biased point of view. Why would I play my Dk who has to run into it to kill people now thay most of them will mitigate w chunk of my damage? I'll sir back with my sorc casting with less risk if they're going to mitigate a chunk of my damage.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If they add physical resist, everyone will be ranged casters. Guarantee it. Why risk up close fighting when people are mitigating if? That to me has always been the trade off.
I have stam and magica users equally so this isn't a biased point of view. Why would I play my Dk who has to run into it to kill people now thay most of them will mitigate w chunk of my damage? I'll sir back with my sorc casting with less risk if they're going to mitigate a chunk of my damage.
Because magica DK and NB have their dmg not mitigated?
Melee has basically no disadvantage compared to ranged in smaller engagements as gapclosers currently guarantee beeing in attackrange every time you want to be.
For larger fights physical dmg users have the option to equip a bow.
I don´t think your argument makes sense.<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
@Derra I never said it was an adequate counter, simply that it was a counter. Fundamentally healing debuffs are a counter to healing buffs. You may recall your initial claim was that healing cp bonuses have no counter, which is false (see here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2587137/#Comment_2587137)
So no I wasn't wrong, you are creating a straw man argument.
I am not as my statement throughout the conversation (that i did not change) was a counter that is not usable because it has a prerequiste i cant access is no counter.
In theory your argument makes sense, because if you´re looking at blessed and befoul on paper they do counter each other.
However if you put things into practice - which you choose to ignore every time i bring it up - they simply don´t because most builds lack the means to apply the mandatory defile debuff in the first place. Your argument is not logically sound as in:
Builds with defile can access befoul (correct).
Befoul counters blessed/quick recovery (correct).
All builds can counter blessed/quick recovery (wrong).
If it makes you happy: On a completely arbitrairy theoretical level you are right. When playing the game you are not - as only the last step is important.
Healing debuffs minor/major defile are a counter to major/minor mending - both of which have nothing to do with the champion system.
I would be all in favor of adding major/minor mending as a prerequisite for blessed/quick revocery to work though (which would then equal the mechanics currently in place for befoul).
Except that wasn't the initial statement that I was commenting on was not in reference to your modified response, only your initial comment and I never claimed otherwise.
However now that I think about it you are also ignoring almost all the other counters for healing like higher damage or cloak/stealth to catch your opponent off guard. When you consider that simply having higher damage can counter healing you also have access to at least two other weapon damage and two other spell damage cp that are useful to all classes in addition to the befoul cp, or any cp that might benefit stealth.Edited by Cathexis on January 22, 2016 7:37PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
@Derra I never said it was an adequate counter, simply that it was a counter. Fundamentally healing debuffs are a counter to healing buffs. You may recall your initial claim was that healing cp bonuses have no counter, which is false (see here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2587137/#Comment_2587137)
So no I wasn't wrong, you are creating a straw man argument.
I am not as my statement throughout the conversation (that i did not change) was a counter that is not usable because it has a prerequiste i cant access is no counter.
In theory your argument makes sense, because if you´re looking at blessed and befoul on paper they do counter each other.
However if you put things into practice - which you choose to ignore every time i bring it up - they simply don´t because most builds lack the means to apply the mandatory defile debuff in the first place. Your argument is not logically sound as in:
Builds with defile can access befoul (correct).
Befoul counters blessed/quick recovery (correct).
All builds can counter blessed/quick recovery (wrong).
If it makes you happy: On a completely arbitrairy theoretical level you are right. When playing the game you are not - as only the last step is important.
Healing debuffs minor/major defile are a counter to major/minor mending - both of which have nothing to do with the champion system.
I would be all in favor of adding major/minor mending as a prerequisite for blessed/quick revocery to work though (which would then equal the mechanics currently in place for befoul).
Except that wasn't the initial statement that I was commenting on was not in reference to your modified response, only your initial comment and I never claimed otherwise.
However now that I think about it you are also ignoring almost all the other counters for healing like higher damage or cloak/stealth to catch your opponent off guard. When you consider that simply having higher damage can counter healing you also have access to at least two other weapon damage and two other spell damage cp that are useful to all classes in addition to the befoul cp, or any cp that might benefit stealth.
You can spec the same amount of dmg reduction as your opponent can spec into dmg increase - which is a net loss for dmg.
This is by the way how i think it´s supposed to be. The dmg passives have a counter passive that´s decreasing the respective dmg type.
That´s exactly what is needed for healing.<Noricum>
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Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Abra✭✭✭can we have anti-zerg and such called "small scale" raids passives for solo players- such as no ap gained for 30 mins or no aoe for 30 mins0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭can we have anti-zerg and such called "small scale" raids passives for solo players- such as no ap gained for 30 mins or no aoe for 30 mins
Those seem like pretty harsh penalties but I agree with the general idea. You could achieve a similar effect by giving players bonuses that make them stronger when they are horribly outnumbered. For example say giving a cp bonus that in a 3-4v1 scenario or higher damage received is reduced by 95% and damage output is increased by 100%. This type of function could also feed into the role of tanking based builds and abilities for PvP to give tanking more of a role in that area. An even better way to achieve that might be to have those reductions and increases increase as players take damage while solo, so if you are fighting nightblades or DPS heavy builds the reductions scale up quickly, while if you are fighting a group of low damage tanks the bonus will only increase slowly.Edited by Cathexis on January 24, 2016 7:43PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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