Champion System Ability Review

Derra

The rebalancing attempts made so far in eso were never in fact rebalancing things - they´ve always tried to remodel and and overhauled larged parts of the game (they´ve altered skills nobody took issues in while leaving problematic mechanics in place and instead of adding stamina morphs removed good magica morphs of all classes).


On the sorc DK part:

All of the things you list are useful for a sorc aswell. It has nothing to do with the champion system and all with general game changes (Block, HP nerf) and particular DK issues where key skills were outright removed (cinderstorm misschance) or nerfed and left in a horribly bugged state (reflect).

You could argue that while a sorc (if they only utilize their one classshield) would need all of the things you list on top of bastion because they can never utilize heals to the same extent DKs can.

That´s exactly why i´m saying you have to balance the CP system without classes in mind.

Bastion is so good it leads you to state all of the things that would be insanely useful for sorcs too are not needed but are mandatory for DKs (the problem being DK not having a reliable defense ability or heal atm). If DK had a good self-heal and blessed was to be found in the lord constellation it would be the same as bastion for sorcs.

If you removed all those things nothing would change. DKs would not suddenly be in a magically better place than they are now. It´s not the borked champion system but it´s the class that is broken and if you work on the championsystem to make DKs vaible those passives enabling DKs to be competetive are going to make another not as broken class godlike.

Efficient

How about changing CP for an option for players to remove AOE caps? I'd put a point into that.

Oh, btw, what happened to that thread about AOE caps?

Alcast

Wrobel wrote: »

Guys, thanks for all the feedback thus far. Here are some suggestions we really like and are considering so far:

• No longer requiring players to invest in multiple different stars if their build does more than 1 type of damage

At the moment Ultimates and monster sets (Valkyn, Nerienth) only work with Spell Penetration, do you have any intention to change this and make it so that they either scale with Spell or Physical penetration if you make those changes with the CP system?

And I do not think "dumbing" down the CP system will be any good at all. But I guess lets create some new OP things with those changes.

Jar_Ek

1. Armour CPs should increase the effectiveness of the armour passives associated with the armour rather than up the armour value. However if this is done Heavy armour passives would need to be improved. Maybe heavy armour cp could push the DR cap up, or a star could.

2. Ultimates should scale off the highest appropriate cp (Thaum or Mighty) so that stam and magicka are ultimately balanced.

3. Passive stars esp in Thief constellation should be more generally useful and consistent (ie 3x general and then a 120pt combat perk is kinda odd). Currently some passive stars are way better than others, such as Spell Precision and Perfect Strike.

4. New trees may need to be added overtime, has this been considered?

Minno

Derra wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

i still think we should have some star to burst damage against shields in the champion system, @Derra
you can have your opinion too, np

Ofc. I just don´t like having yet another passive (most people don´t have points for anyway) just to counter shields when the passive buffing shields does not makes sense in the first place.

Minno wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Lorkhan wrote: »

#nerfshields

Not the place to make these demands.


Blessed, Quick Recovery and Bastion have no reason to exist in the CP system (only for bastion it would be possible to easily implement a counterweight mechanic).

I´d scrap all of them.

Nerf templars thread so far...

It would hit everyone really. Basically every build apart from magica sorcs (which would get hit by taking bastion) relies on selfheals. Nothing templar exclusive.

One could counter and say, the CP's that increase dmg shouldn't exist either.

Ezareth said it best, ZOS needs to let the players understand how they Invision Champion points from concept to implementation. Then we can really start to balance this aspect of ESO.

It's like me walking into a meeting, telling a client "you'll get 'x' if we do 'y'." But come launch I just put out 'cvfg'anyway without communication or presenting the proposed changes. End result is that our expectations aren't met because our vision differs from ZOS's.

They are on the right track though with this.

But these actually have counters in the cp system (apart from physical dmg). So no not a valid point.

Yea but they have a soft counter; the fact you have to make a choice between healer or dps . 10 points into blessed means you can lose out on hitting 100 points in thaumaturge. If you do have thaumaturge maxed, you have to give up spell pen or crit.

Flip side, for stam build they don't need blessed because they have a heal that works with weapon crit/dmg, thus a CP dedicated towards adding to weapon crit heals. Counter to that is also not on the CP system; they only have two heals and no access to Templar heal passives.

My argument is that if you want to buff your healing, you have to remove points from dmg points. Same for tanking. There shouldn't be an actual counter point for healing, since the dps class or dps options whole point of existing IS TO REDUCE your health points.

ZOS just needs to show us a preliminary CP system for the new update, and their vision for said system. Because without that we can go in circles what should get removed versus others.

The problem with your though is: Eventually people will have dmg passives maxed out and dmg reduction passives maxed out. These cancel each other out (roughly - reduction is a tad more effective).

What remains (at a point where people have enough cp to spec most things they´re interested in) then is healing passives and bastion.
At that point you have +25% dmg -25% dmg but nothing to combat the effect of 16% increased healing taken and 25% outgoing healing resulting in basically ~45% better heals and 25% stronger shields while dmg stays the same. That´s where the problem lies and why i don´t think these passives are well thought out.

Perhaps it's time then to look at how CP can add to how a players plays their class instead of blanket adding/countering DMG/healing outputs. It's clear, we have a black hole event where the lack of a level cap on CP results in insane stars go dmg/healing.

We can put all the counters we want for those aspects of play, but its not solving anything unless you limit players progression. Look at my post asking for opinions on the following changes:

Minno wrote: »
Thanks @Wrobel for the quick recap!

Question for the community; should Champion points alter dmg / heals in the first place? I know its a very popular placement for CP's but do we want the black hole associated with offering an increase then a way to counter it?

Is it easy to turn points over to effect how skills are used versus the dmg themselves?
Examples:

- decrease cast time for magicka spells
- increase range of arrows
- increase elemental status effect chance
- increase magicka penetration. (Which we already have spell pen.)

Then you have passives that alter the way you play:

- 6% chance on spell penetration to chain lighting.
- % chance at multiple penetration with arrow
- increased crit hit dmg and chance with melee when you hit behind a enemy
- heal allies for 1000 when you dispel a negative effect. Occurs only once per 6 seconds.


You get the idea. Thoughts?

xAPxZeez

I like the cp idea but the implementation of passives was written by an insane person.

The groupings seem random and the 10,30,75,120 bonuses only work in specific builds.

I suggest a complete revamp of this system:

Three colored trees: offensive/defensive/support

Defensive has 3 categories: light/medium/heavy
Heavy gives blocking bonuses, heavy set bonuses things that benefit heavy armor, shield bonuses
Medium gives medium 5 set bonus, detection reduction, other things a medium armor wants
Light gives 5 light bonuses, things to reduce ranged and Melee damage

Offensive has 3 categories: Weapon, Physical, magicjack
Weapon increases weapon damages (same as the ritual)
Physical increase physical combat damage, physical combat crit, physical combat penetration
Magicka increases spell damage, spell power, erosion, spell crit

Support has 3 categories recovery, reduction, misc
Recovery increased health, magicka, stamina recovery, tenacity ( same as the lover)
Reduction reduced stamina, magicka, bash, sprint (same as the tower)
Misc Should include things that multiple build would like to pick like bastion (damage shields) Roll dodging, healing bonuses, etc

People can choose armor type, damage type, support type for their build and the passives should reflect those choices. This is just a rough idea but it would let them keep their current 9 category pie chart system they have would just require renaming and reorganizing them to a more effective position.

Moglijuana

Put a champion point tree to buff the Magicka DK! Since only an entirely exclusive tree can make them competitive again...

xAPxZeez

Passives I think are bad and need reworking
Foresight, vengeance, tactician, merchant favored,

Would rather see when under 50% health increase magic and stamina regen by 20%
Critical attacks have a 10% chance to knockdown opponent unless immune
Increase potion duration by x seconds
Drinking a potion gives double regen for first y seconds
Heavy attacks have a z% chance to interrupt

Others need to be adjusted:
Last stand should work under 40% not 20%
Unchained should last for 5 seconds
Reinforced ds should be bigger since it has a 10 sec cool down

Ezareth

Wrobel wrote: »

Calling all ESO forum posters! We are currently reviewing the Champion System bonuses and would love hear your feedback on them. Our goals for this review are:

• Ensure bonuses have a counter weight
• Improve infrequently selected bonuses
• Effectively communicate all bonuses so it’s easier to understand what they’re doing

Ensure every bonus has a counter weight:
For the Champion System, every offensive bonus should have a defensive counterpart and vice versa. For example: Offensive players can get increased spell penetration from Spell Erosion, while defensive players can get increased spell resistance from Spell Shield.

Improve infrequently selected bonuses:
Some of the Champion Point stars are much less popular than others. It’s not intended that all specs are equally useful, but they should be somewhat useful for some playstyle. Nourishing is a great example of a passive we are looking at in our review. It’s in the same constellation as Quick Recovery and gives a similar bonus of increased healing. However, Nourishing only works every 45 seconds when you can use a potion and Quick Recovery works all the time on all abilities, from both ally and self cast sources.

Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Spell Erosion and Piercing are looking at the attackers stats instead of the defenders so the number don't end up being what you may expect. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.

We would love to hear what your top three changes would be to the Champion bonuses. Keep in mind the criteria above, and as always, please keep things constructive!

@Wrobel

Others have covered the majority of the issues with many of the existing abilities and their imbalances so there is no need for me to add my voice to theirs other than some minor points which I'll make for some specific abilities.

I'd like to discuss from a high level some of the design issues with the current system and then suggest what I feel are potential resolutions to these issues.

As a Min/Max Theorycrafter my time spent with the champion system was first spent in learning exactly how each of the pertinent champion passives worked (I think a small mathematical representation via hover-over would do wonders to provide the details on exactly how a passive works before deciding which abilities to choose), and then determining how to maximize my effectiveness through simple math. There were and continue to be bugs with various Abilities that will always necessitate this.

One Issue I find is that (with perfect knowledge of how the abilities function) I don't really have a choice in my selection of champion points. There is no real "Customization" with this system. I choose the points in the blue tree which provide the highest increase in damage to my particular build. I choose the points in the red tree which provide the highest defense in the red tree, and I choose the green points which provide the highest efficiency in the green tree. The only real "Customization" option is in the amount of Champion Points I've earned. Once I'm at Cap, you'll find that I have almost exactly the same champion distribution as any other player of my class running a similar build who also has my understanding of the math.

Now balancing all of the champion abilities will help with this somewhat but I still think what the champion system lacks is the ability to "Specialize" you character. One suggestion is to give your character the ability to choose a Tree (Warrior, Thief or Mage) and the points put into that tree become more effective. Give players the ability to become more damage, defense or efficiency oriented to coincide with their particular build or playstyle. Perhaps points put into your specialty tree would award a 25% bonus to the effectiveness of points put into that particular tree (This would coincide with a slight overall nerf of the top end of all abilities in order to keep the relative power of all characters overall the same).

The other issue I find is with the design of how your character unlocks champion passives. I would like to see each of the passives in each "Tier" balanced with each other in each tree and then unlocked after spending the required amount of points in that tree. After spending 120 points in the Thief tree you would be allowed to choose one 120 Passive, After spending 240 points you'd be able to choose 2 etc. What this does is remove the added complexity of balancing passives with the constellations they are associated with. Many good passives are locked behind relatively "useless" constellations which means they are never really chosen. As long as all equivalent tier passives are balanced with each other in each tree this would allow for far more choices and customization.


Some Minor Points:

In the event the existing Diminishing Returns structure is kept The Maximum Potential Benefit (25%, 16% etc) should be visible when viewing a particular champion Point

The Damage Increasing Passives Cap should be reduced to 20%, these are far to powerful relative to other passives.

I'd like to see a dodge chance defensive passive added to the Warrior Tree using the same math as the cost reduction passives (Calculated after everything else to avoid too much stacking)

f047ys3v3n

Much of this has been said. The basics of magic damage is split between 2 stars with elemental and magic and physical is not is well known. Also, direct magic user mitigation with elemental and magic mitigation stars without corresponding direct physical damage mitigation is well known. Lastly, double direct dot mitigation is a bugaboo. All combined with better stam AOE to start with it is most common for stam AOE to double Magica in PVP. Mine on my stam sorc certainly doubles that of my magica Templar. This, from my old stampion system post is how I would fix those major errors.


"The specific solutions to this are, on the output side to split the thalmaturge star placing its magic damage in elemental, poison in physical, and changing the existing star to affect all siege damage. On the mitigation side, magic mitigation and elemental mitigation should be put together in a star and the other star made a direct, regardless of armor rating, physical damage mitigation. The direct DOT star should also be changed to not stack with the direct mitigation stars."

As for good stars vs less good stars, some things will always be better than others. I wouldn't spend to much time fretting about that. The main thing is not to majorly skew things in PVP vs PVE by making the mitigation one sided like it currently is. I agree with those who would like more of the interesting quality of life perks like fast harvesting. Perhaps most perks should be quality of life as most points are combat related. You could add inventory space, etc to perks.

QuebraRegra

A while back ZOS stated that they would add campaigns that had no CP... Where is this? As an example NON-VET campaigns should negate any CPs applied.

Also there should be some sort of display for CP level when looking at another player (ie. level 50/300)

Ffastyl

@Ezareth The Armor Focus and weapon Expert stars are forms of specialization currently in the CS. Making more stars like those, perhaps increase passives/stats for specific skill lines or add other specific bonuses ("Increase block mitigation by x% for 2 seconds after starting to block, 2 second cooldown" for example). But to make those bonuses worthwhile, the general power increases such as Mighty, Thaumaturge, Warlord, Magician, Hardy, etc. need to be removed. There are far more general power increasing stars than specialty ones, requiring a reinventing of the CS to shift it towards player specialization.

Passives with restrictions, like the weapon Expert and Armor Focus stars mentioned, are what will need to permeate the CS for passives. Stars that reward skilled or reflexive play, like the suggested block mitigation above, would also further allow specialization. Passives that require a certain mixing of armor types, or focusing of armor types, or weapon types.

i.e. Increase weapon damage when a one-handed weapon and shield are equipped for both weapon slots;
Amplify the effects of armor passives when wearing 7 of a single type (could be 1 star or 3, 1 for each type);
When you reflect/absorb an attack with an ability, increase the power of your next ability (not just attacks);
For 1 second after roll dodging, have a chance to dodge incoming attacks;
While wearing 6 or more Heavy Armor pieces, reflect a percentage of melee damage;
While wearing 6 or more Light Armor pieces, there is a chance an incoming attack will be mitigated by 50%, 5 second cooldown;
While wearing up to 3 Medium Armor pieces, reduce cost of Stamina abilities per Medium Armor piece equipped;
With 4 or more abilities from the same skill line on your bar, increase their effectiveness

The list can go on.
Percentages would need to be balanced per passive rather than standardized like the current 25-16 caps. Some will cap at 50% and others at 5%, depending on the power of the passive. There are also passives supporting every type of build, making up for weaknesses in double sword 'n' board users, rewarding armor mixing beyond 5-2 or 5-1-1, including armor specializing for 6-1 or even 7-0, and promoting weapon or class builds. Passives that offer general power increases have conditions, like applying a debuff first or requiring timed actions (with leeway for latency). Passives like these change the way the game is played, letting players specialize in their own playstyle or allow them to ease into different ones.

There are a lot of stars to replace and coming up with specific passives like these is harder than general power boosts. If we want the CS done right, we need to pitch in with passive ideas.

dpencil

@Wrobel

Here are some ideas for stars to put points into:
- Increase effectiveness of damage/healing over time effects.
- Increase effectiveness of AOE damage/healing effects.
- Decrease effectiveness of AOE damage effects against you.
- I suppose you could also include single target increase/decrease, but that might be overkill.
- Increase health percentage at which execute abilities proc
- Increase damage mitigation while out of combat, a large percentage (like the first attack against you if you do not initiate combat does 50% less damage) *Alternately, this could be an unlocked star.

Unlocked star ideas: (all numbers used are placeholders and would be subject to revision)
- Increase Mag/Stam regeneration by 50% for 12 seconds whenever that resource is fully depleted.
- All attacks (light and medium) grant resources back like heavy attacks, but the amount gained is only 33% compared to what heavy attacks give.
- Increase damage mitigation by 10% for 5 seconds against a target who attacked a player you were healing with a single target attack.
- Increase your damage by 10% for 5 seconds against a target who attacked a player who was healing you with a single target attack.

Hopefully some of these will be helpful.

Ezareth

Ffastyl wrote: »

@Ezareth The Armor Focus and weapon Expert stars are forms of specialization currently in the CS. Making more stars like those, perhaps increase passives/stats for specific skill lines or add other specific bonuses ("Increase block mitigation by x% for 2 seconds after starting to block, 2 second cooldown" for example). But to make those bonuses worthwhile, the general power increases such as Mighty, Thaumaturge, Warlord, Magician, Hardy, etc. need to be removed. There are far more general power increasing stars than specialty ones, requiring a reinventing of the CS to shift it towards player specialization.

Passives with restrictions, like the weapon Expert and Armor Focus stars mentioned, are what will need to permeate the CS for passives. Stars that reward skilled or reflexive play, like the suggested block mitigation above, would also further allow specialization. Passives that require a certain mixing of armor types, or focusing of armor types, or weapon types.

i.e. Increase weapon damage when a one-handed weapon and shield are equipped for both weapon slots;
Amplify the effects of armor passives when wearing 7 of a single type (could be 1 star or 3, 1 for each type);
When you reflect/absorb an attack with an ability, increase the power of your next ability (not just attacks);
For 1 second after roll dodging, have a chance to dodge incoming attacks;
While wearing 6 or more Heavy Armor pieces, reflect a percentage of melee damage;
While wearing 6 or more Light Armor pieces, there is a chance an incoming attack will be mitigated by 50%, 5 second cooldown;
While wearing up to 3 Medium Armor pieces, reduce cost of Stamina abilities per Medium Armor piece equipped;
With 4 or more abilities from the same skill line on your bar, increase their effectiveness

The list can go on.
Percentages would need to be balanced per passive rather than standardized like the current 25-16 caps. Some will cap at 50% and others at 5%, depending on the power of the passive. There are also passives supporting every type of build, making up for weaknesses in double sword 'n' board users, rewarding armor mixing beyond 5-2 or 5-1-1, including armor specializing for 6-1 or even 7-0, and promoting weapon or class builds. Passives that offer general power increases have conditions, like applying a debuff first or requiring timed actions (with leeway for latency). Passives like these change the way the game is played, letting players specialize in their own playstyle or allow them to ease into different ones.

There are a lot of stars to replace and coming up with specific passives like these is harder than general power boosts. If we want the CS done right, we need to pitch in with passive ideas.

@Ffastyl

I don't think they are really forms of specialization as they are in different trees. Mage tree now is just pick whatever increases your damage most. Warrior tree is pick whatever increases your defenses most. Theif tree has the most real versatility and changes the most between PvP and PvE.

Weapon heavy/light attack bonuses are boring (and provide far to little benefit compared to other bonuses).

I don't think they want to return to making more people wearing more than 5 pieces of a single armor type as the design of the undaunted passives was to make it advantageous to mix it up.

I think some skill line damage abilities would be nice but I have concerns that it could be too specific and limit players who switch between many different weapons type. Still it's not a bad idea as long as it is balanced against other abilities.

The real problem to me is the power of players increases directly proportionally to the number of champion points they have. They become equally powerful, more efficient, and harder to kill. I'd like to see something of a more focused choice or specialization other than the linear progression in all trees that is homogeneous between players.

Strider_Roshin

Alcast wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Guys, thanks for all the feedback thus far. Here are some suggestions we really like and are considering so far:

• No longer requiring players to invest in multiple different stars if their build does more than 1 type of damage

At the moment Ultimates and monster sets (Valkyn, Nerienth) only work with Spell Penetration, do you have any intention to change this and make it so that they either scale with Spell or Physical penetration if you make those changes with the CP system?

And I do not think "dumbing" down the CP system will be any good at all. But I guess lets create some new OP things with those changes.

You don't understand, right now a sorcerer has to put points into elemental for overload, and into thaumaturge for mines, crystal frags, and curse. By merging the two damage types into one, a sorc no longer has to pick and choose, but instead can focus their attention on other things, like spell penetration :-)

Lord-Otto

1. CPs don't offer adequate defense against physical attacks, the armor bonuses are irrelevant for lighter armors. Also, there is wasted potential for specific builds. I would like a tree for:

- reduce stamina damage (affects any skill that scales with stamina, no reduction for ultimates)
- reduce magicka damage (same, but for magicka)
- reduce ultimate damage
- reduce physical and poison melee damage (for close-range fighters like DKs)
- reduce physical and poison ranged damage (for dealing with snipers)
- reduce fire damage (vampires)
- reduce ice damage
- reduce shock damage


2. Offensive CPs have to be split dependent on your class. This should be corrected. There should be one tree strengthening stamina skills, one for magicka skills and one for ultimates.

3. Some bonuses are highly desirable for PvP, but not for PvE. Spell Erosion, for example. Combine similar bonuses like Spell Erosion and Elfborn into one bonus tree. For example: "Spell Expert - Increases damage done by spell criticals by 0.5% and increases spell penetration by 0.5%".

Softpad

Hi Eric,
I haven't read through all the posts yet but if you do consider other options for unliked or underused stars or passives, what about 2 for increasing the closing range of charges and ambush and such.
And an opposing ability where you decrease the range, or even make it a percentage dodge chance of the closer?

Just thinik something like that is good for dungeons and PvP

i'll keep thinking things through

Softy

tennant94

A physical reduction damage bonus would be nice.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

guys, please NOTE:

this does Not apply to "PVP"
this is only for "PVE" very soon will be a NON-CP cryodiil campaign

it does apply to PvP. The Champion System is a progression mechanism that powers and passive ablities were changed based on. If you have to remove a mechanism of progression then have the game really progressed?

Opux

I think one of the largest issues with this game is in how attributes and bonuses interact with each other. For some reason everything is a percentage, and this is bad for the health of the game. Superlinear scaling means that the only winning move is to pump a small number of attributes up super high. This is why damage and sustain has skyrocket recently, and why hybrid builds, and build diversity, have suffered.

Some people advocate for adding softcaps back into the game, but I think that is unnecessary. The solution is to remove as many superlinear bonuses as possible, and I think the champion system is a great place to start.

What do I mean by this? Well, lets use Mooncalf as an example: currently at 100 points it increases your regen by 25%. This means that the more base regen you have, the more you benefit from this bonus (i.e. superlinear). A better alternative would be to have this bonus be a flat one, e.g. at 100 points you get a flat 200 regen. This makes the bonus useful for both stamina and magicka builds: stamina can use it for more primary resource regen, and magicka can use it to shore up a weakness. The idea is that the bonus is equally powerful in both cases.

Personally I think this treatment should be given to more game systems. For example, racial passives given this treatment would mean that the passives they give would be useful for all builds.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

For those asking for a physical reduction star can you explain a bit more. From my perspective effective health for a templar healer can be driven pretty high. For example, I'm at 359 cps and now again use HA, at 400 it'll be even sweeter.

With a physical reduction star a heal/tank, I mean literally drop channeled focus and stand, may be viable, soaking up damage and throwing heals with dr capped and physical reduction on top of that. It gets even crazier when considering the most underrated set in the game Orgnums Scales.

Currently thats not possible because the burst dam can cut through burst healing in HA, with an actual pyshical reduction star it may be possible to mitgate that burst dam.

I dont fear magic builds since spell resist is easy to come by. Pure stam physical builds counter mag temp healers very well do to the mismatch in mobility and the high burst potential, I believe thats a good thing.

Cinbri

Wish @Wrobel created thread "Ultimate generation mechanic"

Derra

Cinbri wrote: »

Wish @Wrobel created thread "Ultimate generation mechanic"

Essentially the same as aoe caps. They don´t want even/fair fights vs superior numbers.

Dynamic ultimate would give an edge to smaller grps. Do you really see them adding sth like that back to the game when they´re refusing to create a fair chance in the first place with removing caps?

Bashev

If they do not AoE caps which we desperately need they should add smart DPS similar to smart heals (always attack the target with low health) and they should add a penalty for the resurrections.

Right now even if you manage to kill 1-2 ppl with your small group the big group resurrect them immediately.


P.S But I guess that smart DPS will bring a lot of server calculations. So remove the AoE and save the server from the lag and do not give the big groups bigger advantage than they already have by their size.

Bashev

If they do not remove AoE caps which we desperately need they should add smart DPS similar to smart heals (always attack the target with low health) and they should add a penalty for the resurrections.

Right now even if you manage to kill 1-2 ppl with your small group the big group resurrect them immediately.


P.S But I guess that smart DPS will bring a lot of server calculations. So remove the AoE and save the server from the lag and do not give the big groups bigger advantage than they already have by their size.

Darlgon

Told you my answer would not be short..

Grab a beverage of your choice. I answered in a different thread not to distract from here.. too much.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/239034/champion-system-review-a-possibly-ridiculously-long-answer-by-darlgon-telvanni?new=1

Darlgon

Soulac wrote: »

Wrobel wrote: »

Effectively communicate all bonuses so it's easier to understand what they are doing:
It’s unclear exactly how some Champion passives work just by reading their tooltips. For example, Befoul reads: “Increases the effectiveness of healing reduction abilities by 33%”. This bonus is actually additive, so a 30% debuff ends up being a 63% debuff when this passive is maxed. We’ll be cleaning up instances of tooltips like this so they are easy to understand.

With 100pts into Befoul my reverberating bash / soul harvest tells me it reduces heals by 40 %. Either it´s an error in the tooltip or it´s not working as you described.

It.. has it OWN scale up system of CP investments.. 40 pts gives you 16.8%....

Ffastyl

Opux wrote: »

I think one of the largest issues with this game is in how attributes and bonuses interact with each other. For some reason everything is a percentage, and this is bad for the health of the game. Superlinear scaling means that the only winning move is to pump a small number of attributes up super high. This is why damage and sustain has skyrocket recently, and why hybrid builds, and build diversity, have suffered.

Some people advocate for adding softcaps back into the game, but I think that is unnecessary. The solution is to remove as many superlinear bonuses as possible, and I think the champion system is a great place to start.

What do I mean by this? Well, lets use Mooncalf as an example: currently at 100 points it increases your regen by 25%. This means that the more base regen you have, the more you benefit from this bonus (i.e. superlinear). A better alternative would be to have this bonus be a flat one, e.g. at 100 points you get a flat 200 regen. This makes the bonus useful for both stamina and magicka builds: stamina can use it for more primary resource regen, and magicka can use it to shore up a weakness. The idea is that the bonus is equally powerful in both cases.

Personally I think this treatment should be given to more game systems. For example, racial passives given this treatment would mean that the passives they give would be useful for all builds.

What stars would you feel need a fixed value and what value(s) would those be?

MormondPayne_EP

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

I wish ZOS would participate in these discussions

Keep in mind this thread isn't meant to be a discussion or Q&A, the goal is to gather feedback from everyone about the topic at hand.

With that said, please keep this thread focused on what Wrobel and his team are looking for: three changes you'd like to see with the Champion bonuses. This is not a place to discuss other systems. Thank you!

Heaven forbid we expect some kind of contact by the devs.

Maybe it would be a good idea to try to NOT alienate your customers sometimes, at least?

Opux

Ffastyl wrote: »

What stars would you feel need a fixed value and what value(s) would those be?

Off the top of my head (each option a different star):

Mighty/Thaumaturge/Elemental Expert: Flat weapon/spell damage (also solves the problem of having to pump more than one star).
Hardy/Elemental Defender/Think Skin: Flat physical/spell resist.
Arcanist/Mooncalf/Healthy: Flat stam/magicka/health regen.

I'm sure there are more, but these should have the biggest effect. Also frees up some stars for more interesting bonuses.