@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
Yeah...
That´s why i´m saying befoul is not a counter to blessed and quick recovery.
You say yourself heals are an integral part of almost every build (they are replaced by shields on builds where they are not - i´m also for removing bastion) whereas heal debuffs are a feature that´s not easily accessible. Thanks a lot for repeating what i´ve been saying from the beginning of this conversation...
Edit: @xAPxZeez what you´re describing about dmg not getting mitigated after hitting shields is not the case anymore.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
Yeah...
That´s why i´m saying befoul is not a counter to blessed and quick recovery.
You say yourself heals are an integral part of almost every build (they are replaced by shields on builds where they are not - i´m also for removing bastion) whereas heal debuffs are a feature that´s not easily accessible. Thanks a lot for repeating what i´ve been saying from the beginning of this conversation...
Edit: @xAPxZeez what you´re describing about dmg not getting mitigated after hitting shields is not the case anymore.
@Derra except your saying that is why they need a counter and I'm saying that's why they don't. Love it when people talk down to you while they are being ignorant at the same time.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
In my book if you don´t have it available when you want it to be active (which equals an on demand skill) you don´t have it available at all (i would even go as far as saying both the templar skill dark flare and the snipe morph are not available on demand because they´re so easily interrupted).
Which is basically the whole point. Heals are available on demand at any time you press the button. Heal debuffs are not. Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.
It´s like trying to settle an arguement about shields by telling people to enchant their weapons with the shield enchantment. They have the option to get a shield that way...
Heals are also integral to almost every non shield build, while healing debuffs are not. Certain builds get healing debuffs the same way certain builds get gap closers - not every spec gets every feature.
Yeah...
That´s why i´m saying befoul is not a counter to blessed and quick recovery.
You say yourself heals are an integral part of almost every build (they are replaced by shields on builds where they are not - i´m also for removing bastion) whereas heal debuffs are a feature that´s not easily accessible. Thanks a lot for repeating what i´ve been saying from the beginning of this conversation...
Edit: @xAPxZeez what you´re describing about dmg not getting mitigated after hitting shields is not the case anymore.
@Derra except your saying that is why they need a counter and I'm saying that's why they don't. Love it when people talk down to you while they are being ignorant at the same time.
I´m not saying they need a counter. I say they need to be removed because they have no counter and you can´t design one for healing.
This is why you might get the feeling i´m talking down to you. It´s because you´re to ignorant to even follow my train thought over the conversation. Trying to have an argument with someone who does not bother to read nor is able to explain his own train of thought can be tiresome.
And to end this: Can you explain why you feel why somthing that works on a 20% chance every 4s is an adequate counter to something that works every time you press the button for it (with the funny addition that healdebuffs have a counter called purge)?
Because if you can - i´ll admit you´re right. If you can´t well then don´t come here telling me i´m the one being ignorant and talking down to people.
Your theory does not work here. It needs to be active when the player wants it to be active to be a counter. You can not achieve that by the very core design of a rgn procc. That´s why your argument is flawed beyond any chance of repair.
@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
Therefor you can point out anything you want. Anyone reasonable will realize that the option you point out does not make sense.@Derra healing bonus cp do have a counter in the cp tree its called befoul
As for bastion, that I agree - there is no way to redux shield strength.
They have not.
Befoul has no counter CP as that would be one reducing the effectiveness of healing debuffs.
Healing passives have no counter because a cp tree countering them would not require the use of healing debuffs (as they´re not accessible enough - especially on magica builds).
For the healing passives to work equivalent to befoul they would modify the value of minor and major mending - requiring these buffs to be active to work.
Yes but you have to use specific abilities to heal just as you have to use specific abilities to reduce healing.
Right but the wrong approach. Every build will most likely heal as heals are widely accessible for every spec. Healing debuffs are not. They are exclusive to three "normal" abilities in the game.
So you can view healing as a core mechanic for every build whereas healing debuffs are a "perk" that is a build choice (like using a specific set).
Imho healing is a core mechanic of the game whereas reducing healing with debuffs is not (because they are so scarce).
To counter a healpassive befoul would have to work in a way that healing without ANY prerequisite is reduced on your enemy (i don´t think this is realisticly implementable).
For healing passives to work in a similar way like befoul they would have to modify the major and minor mending debuff currently in the game.
With the current implementation these are two passives that both do not have a counter, but when strictly looking at what they do - they do NOT counter each other.
@Derra actually there is also an enchant which applies a healing debuff as well - so healing debuffs are available to any build.CraftMaster wrote: »One simple addition I would like. Champion Points affect tooltip stats. For example if I put 100 into elemental expert I would like to see 25% higher stats in my tooltip on Force Pulse.
+1 THIS
@Cathexis are you kidding me or do you really want to suggest that a rng 20% chance to procc a healing debuff every 4s is comparable to an actual on demand ability?
Because if you think this there is no argument to be had.
I think there are a lot of rng abilities and none of them are appropriate. That doesn't mean that it isn't a valid option.
Why did i even try...
??? I'm not disagreeing with you that rng is bad. Just saying as an option for healing redux it is there, even if it's craptacular.
@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis
@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis
@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
@Derra I never said it was an adequate counter, simply that it was a counter. Fundamentally healing debuffs are a counter to healing buffs. You may recall your initial claim was that healing cp bonuses have no counter, which is false (see here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2587137/#Comment_2587137)
So no I wasn't wrong, you are creating a straw man argument.
If they add physical resist, everyone will be ranged casters. Guarantee it. Why risk up close fighting when people are mitigating if? That to me has always been the trade off.
I have stam and magica users equally so this isn't a biased point of view. Why would I play my Dk who has to run into it to kill people now thay most of them will mitigate w chunk of my damage? I'll sir back with my sorc casting with less risk if they're going to mitigate a chunk of my damage.
You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis
@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
@Derra I never said it was an adequate counter, simply that it was a counter. Fundamentally healing debuffs are a counter to healing buffs. You may recall your initial claim was that healing cp bonuses have no counter, which is false (see here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2587137/#Comment_2587137)
So no I wasn't wrong, you are creating a straw man argument.
I am not as my statement throughout the conversation (that i did not change) was a counter that is not usable because it has a prerequiste i cant access is no counter.
In theory your argument makes sense, because if you´re looking at blessed and befoul on paper they do counter each other.
However if you put things into practice - which you choose to ignore every time i bring it up - they simply don´t because most builds lack the means to apply the mandatory defile debuff in the first place. Your argument is not logically sound as in:
Builds with defile can access befoul (correct).
Befoul counters blessed/quick recovery (correct).
All builds can counter blessed/quick recovery (wrong).
If it makes you happy: On a completely arbitrairy theoretical level you are right. When playing the game you are not - as only the last step is important.
Healing debuffs minor/major defile are a counter to major/minor mending - both of which have nothing to do with the champion system.
I would be all in favor of adding major/minor mending as a prerequisite for blessed/quick revocery to work though (which would then equal the mechanics currently in place for befoul).
You´re trying to prove a point that is untrue. Which is: Befoul is an adequate counter to blessed and quick recovery. Which is not the case as the prerequisite to benefit of the befoul passive is not accessible to all build on an on demand ability.
Therefor this is a right or wrong question and i conclude - you´re wrong@Cathexis
@Cathexis
On demand heal debuffs are not accessible for all builds using their primary resource whereas heals are. That´s it - nothing more to add. Even if you view snipe and darkflare as on demand. Still leaves out magica NB, sorc and DK. Two have to use an ultimate (not on demand) one has no access at all to a healing debuff that´s not based on luck.
I understand what you try to say. The problem i have is what you´re saying does not make sense when you´re talking about balancing the champion system.
Simply because: A passive that´s not working when i put points into it because my build does not have access to a healing debuff i can trigger on demand does not counter two passives that work every time when someone uses their healing abilities which are accessible for stam/mag on every build.
So when i´m saying your argument is beyond repair what i mean is: You are wrong.
There are, however, fundamental areas of every class. Healing is a fundamental necessity to all character builds.
Healing debuffs, however are not. You can build a character that is successful without a healing debuff. Its not a critical component of combat, it is a tactical utility.
The problem with this statement is:
Healing can be buffed by up to 45% in efficiency by the champion system - to a core functionality of every build! This is an increase of such magnitude that having a counter available becomes necessary (atleast as an option for every build) - which is not possible with the way befoul is currently implemented.
Either healing debuffs have to become a fundamental necessity to all builds (making them more accessible) or the healing passives (and bastion) need to be removed as befoul does not offer a counter because it simply can not be used by all specs whereas heals can.
I would be in favor of removing them as defense is currently stronger than offense in general and there is no need for 45% increased healing and 26% increased shields on top of that.
@Derra I never said it was an adequate counter, simply that it was a counter. Fundamentally healing debuffs are a counter to healing buffs. You may recall your initial claim was that healing cp bonuses have no counter, which is false (see here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2587137/#Comment_2587137)
So no I wasn't wrong, you are creating a straw man argument.
I am not as my statement throughout the conversation (that i did not change) was a counter that is not usable because it has a prerequiste i cant access is no counter.
In theory your argument makes sense, because if you´re looking at blessed and befoul on paper they do counter each other.
However if you put things into practice - which you choose to ignore every time i bring it up - they simply don´t because most builds lack the means to apply the mandatory defile debuff in the first place. Your argument is not logically sound as in:
Builds with defile can access befoul (correct).
Befoul counters blessed/quick recovery (correct).
All builds can counter blessed/quick recovery (wrong).
If it makes you happy: On a completely arbitrairy theoretical level you are right. When playing the game you are not - as only the last step is important.
Healing debuffs minor/major defile are a counter to major/minor mending - both of which have nothing to do with the champion system.
I would be all in favor of adding major/minor mending as a prerequisite for blessed/quick revocery to work though (which would then equal the mechanics currently in place for befoul).
Except that wasn't the initial statement that I was commenting on was not in reference to your modified response, only your initial comment and I never claimed otherwise.
However now that I think about it you are also ignoring almost all the other counters for healing like higher damage or cloak/stealth to catch your opponent off guard. When you consider that simply having higher damage can counter healing you also have access to at least two other weapon damage and two other spell damage cp that are useful to all classes in addition to the befoul cp, or any cp that might benefit stealth.
can we have anti-zerg and such called "small scale" raids passives for solo players- such as no ap gained for 30 mins or no aoe for 30 mins