LoS on heals

eliisra · January 2016

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

It's not mashing BoL's or Ward that the challenging part of healing. It's the fact that you attract attention of every decent NB in the area as soon as you start using Breath of Life. It's keeping yourself and others alive with smart positioning and defensive moves, with players constantly pounding on you, that makes it skill-full.

Best way to drop aggro as a templar in PvP, that's using Puncturing Sweep lol. Than you wont get focused at all, because no one gives a *** about a dps-plar. Most irrelevant and least dangerous person on the battle field. Strong heal is the only thing templars have going for them in PvP sadly. Nerf that with no replacement function and templars have no reasons to enter Cyrodiil at all.

But in all fairness, this healing through walls and doors crap, needs to go. It wasn't as much of an issue back in the days, because templars spamming BoL would oom in like 30 seconds. Not the case today.

So I guess I partly agree with the OP. When you have 5 guys behind a closed solid door, spamming heals on the guys in combat outside, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean there's no actual counter against that. You cant take out those healers.

Mumyo · January 2016

blabafat wrote: »

It's absolutely necessary now.

@FENGRUSH has talked about this before in the first few "We are ESO" Podcasts

Let me provide a situation

There is a 12 man group in a Tower. 2 of these people are healers. These 2 players CAN (and this happens all the time) sit on the very top of the tower, and mash breath of life/healing wards THROUGH THE LEVELS OF THE TOWER. The group members are being healed through walls by their mindless healers who just press the same button over and over.

This doesn't make any sense. It completely eliminates the skill of healing when you are able to heal someone through walls. You might not even know who you are healing

i bet this would screw the server performance even more but id love to have it with sight required.

Takllin · January 2016

LOL at people trying to paint this as an 1vX complaint thread.

It's not. It's purely about LoS checks on heals, in any kind of environment. It affects large scale and small scale equally.

Rylana · January 2016

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

It's not mashing BoL's or Ward that the challenging part of healing. It's the fact that you attract attention of every decent NB in the area as soon as you start using Breath of Life. It's keeping yourself and others alive with smart positioning and defensive moves, with players constantly pounding on you, that makes it skill-full.

Best way to drop aggro as a templar in PvP, that's using Puncturing Sweep lol. Than you wont get focused at all, because no one gives a *** about a dps-plar. Most irrelevant and least dangerous person on the battle field. Strong heal is the only thing templars have going for them in PvP sadly. Nerf that with no replacement function and templars have no reasons to enter Cyrodiil at all.

But in all fairness, this healing through walls and doors crap, needs to go. It wasn't as much of an issue back in the days, because templars spamming BoL would oom in like 30 seconds. Not the case today.

So I guess I partly agree with the OP. When you have 5 guys behind a closed solid door, spamming heals on the guys in combat outside, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean there's no actual counter against that. You cant take out those healers.

Just replying to bolded part, agree with most of the rest.

Templar utility goes beyond heals, repentance is one of the most essential skills in the game right now besides purge, and only a templar can use it. Gotta fuel those tornadozergs amirite?

Get 6 guys rolling tornado bats and dets, get a templar with BoL and repentance, a Sorc with negate and encase, and get like 10 pugs to run some rapids, purge, and barriers and you just became a 1 percenter group, cause thats all they fricken do now. Diversity is gone.

Zheg · January 2016

I feel like people are being a little silly about this.

There are pretty much two places where LoS matters for heals, resource towers and keeps. Open field obviously doesn't matter, and I'd make very strong arguments that if you aren't looking/can't see the healer behind a tree/random rock, you're not as good a player as you think you are.

Resource Towers:
If you are defending the tower, chances are you were trying to farm, so should we really talking about skill here? You're not exactly looking to get the best players to come inside, you're looking to get the potatoes. Tower farms are stupid ESO things (even though I do them, I'm able to be honest and realize how stupid it is for a door to automatically stop working when a flag flips and magically stop opposing players from coming inside), so I don't see the benefit in promoting this by making even more potatoes go where you want so they can be farmed.

If you are attacking the tower, unless you're going in as a group, you should try and get out of the first floor immediately to avoid the stupid negates/CC/dmg from the door delay. I always go check/clear oil in those situations, so you're already above the main group of farmers, why in the world would you NOT see what else is up in the tower (healers in blab's example) and kill them? If you just went solo into a tower farm where 10 people were on the bottom, 2 healers up top, and you stayed at the bottom fighting, well, frankly, you potato'd into that. The alternative is to just siege the tower, and then healers have no place to hide, problem solved. Since the example in the OP clearly didn't involve sieging the tower, one of two things happened. Blab either pushed in with a group and the group didn't have enough of a bomb to wipe a majority of the farmers on 1st floor and pressure their group - in this case, problem is with the dps and timing attacks. OR, blab went in with insufficient numbers, tried fighting larger numbers on the first floor instead of checking the rest of the tower (which takes all of 10 seconds, and you should have gone upstairs anyway if you were outnumbered) - in this case, problem is with potato behavior.

Keeps:
Almost all of the keeps have static designs, and have the same 'hiding' spots. I expect dps to know to effing check the ledges, behind the door between front and back flag on inner, etc. when we're fighting in there. Most of those 'hiding' spots already have an LoS to your allies anyway, so you wouldn't even be changing much with the OP's suggestion in these fights. Furthermore, in these situations, if your group leaves a healer unchecked up on a ledge, it's because your dps slacked off and didn't look for them, or didn't prioritize killing them. It's very easy to see healers in keeps if you're actually keeping an eye out for them and checking the routine spots.

I really don't see strong arguments possible for the necessity of LoS for open field or keep fights because it's quite easy to spot the healers with a simple camera turn/check of your peripheral vision - so that pretty much just leaves tower fights. In the example blab gave, the tower could have been sieged in which case it becomes an 'open field' fight (sorta) and the crouching templar hidden healer mantra no longer applies, or, blab just fought at the bottom and never actually checked what was above him. In that case, why are we focusing so hard on how unskillful it is for BoL mechanics, and not on the fact that it wouldn't have even been an issue if it wasn't potato'd up? I have little doubts blab could kill a healer if he found one, sooo... the remaining 2 floors which take all of 10 seconds to check in total were left a mystery, and the complaint is that there ended up being healers up there that could keep the dps alive you were trying to fight on the first floor? As I said in the beginning, this seems silly.

Would I like healing to be more involved than BoL spam? You bet. Do I have faith in wrobel to pull that off? There isn't a meme to do the lulz justice, and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. So, if we don't actually think wrobel could pull off a healing overhaul, why are trying to fix a problem that in each of the scenarios I laid out above, ended up being a problem with the dps/potato behavior? It's early, so maybe I'm not thinking of an engagement environment that isn't covered by open field/tower/keep, so please by all means speak up if you have one.

Islyn · January 2016

Rylana wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

Rylana wrote: »

Islyn wrote: »

I begin to think more and more that the PVE and PVP parts of this game need to be utterly and completely separate.

So many of the things PVP folks 'suggest' are annoying if not downright damaging to the PVE aspect - it makes me feel like we'd all be better off if they were 2 separate games.

Its a basic function of game design, PvE and PvP centric thinking has nothing to do with it.

If you cannot see it (line of sight) you cannot hit it.

The converse must also hold true, to balance the equation. (if your healer cannot see their target, they cannot heal them)

If not, you end up with what OP described.

Actually lets put this in a PvE centric point of view to illustrate how stupid it could become, say in a future piece of content.

Say theres this wall, the NPC final boss never goes around it. No attacks can hit a player behind that wall. So what becomes the cheese strat to beating it? Just put your healer behind that wall and have the tank stand on the corner so the DPS have a little cubby where they could also utilize LOS to avoid damage. Making any other mechanic null, since the healer cannot be threatened.

In fact this exact scenario would hold true on the first major boss of WGT if it wasnt for the cage mechanic.

Now you see the problem?

Well actually, *It's magic* and it's called *breath* not beam or wrecking blow or whatever (Well that and I don't complain over every little thing I don't like in game.) so I really just don't care either way.

I am not saying there should not be line of sight for heals blah blah blah.

I still think both should be separate games.

Look at the rest of the templar nerfs. You gonna put all those in PVE perspective too?

Also when any thread states: I (one person) cannot kill 3x blah blah, I am just like *Oh So What? Cry me a river* to be totally honest I don't care if some tryhard cannot solo kill 3 people his same skill level. Whatever their class may be and TO BE HONEST he SHOULD NOT be able to kill 3 heavy tanky healers. lol. To think he should is biased and stupid.

Not a templar nerf. it should also apply to all resto heals, sap essence, purge/cleanse, vigor, and anything else.

But the rest of the templar nerfs due to PVPer complaining were templar nerfs.

Other than line of sight - things like nerfing RANGE of BoL will just be a nail in templar coffins everywhere.

CatchMeTrolling · January 2016

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

It's not mashing BoL's or Ward that the challenging part of healing. It's the fact that you attract attention of every decent NB in the area as soon as you start using Breath of Life. It's keeping yourself and others alive with smart positioning and defensive moves, with players constantly pounding on you, that makes it skill-full.

Best way to drop aggro as a templar in PvP, that's using Puncturing Sweep lol. Than you wont get focused at all, because no one gives a *** about a dps-plar. Most irrelevant and least dangerous person on the battle field. Strong heal is the only thing templars have going for them in PvP sadly. Nerf that with no replacement function and templars have no reasons to enter Cyrodiil at all.

But in all fairness, this healing through walls and doors crap, needs to go. It wasn't as much of an issue back in the days, because templars spamming BoL would oom in like 30 seconds. Not the case today.

So I guess I partly agree with the OP. When you have 5 guys behind a closed solid door, spamming heals on the guys in combat outside, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean there's no actual counter against that. You cant take out those healers.

You'll still get focused down even with los, wouldn't change a thing. And DPS Templars can very well be a threat, it's just the fact most Templar skills are useless and we can't stack damage like sorcs or NBS.

But take away smart healing and you ruin the Templar class even more, no point to even play a Templar healer at that point. There's still more problems in this game such as the high damage cap, cheap one shot builds, stacking player's (which los would promote) how many nerfs must the Templar class take before we actually get buffed. Who really mains a Templar now? The Templar class is in a very *** place, yes they can be good in the right hand's but that's from experience and player skill. Very few actually pull it off..

Takllin · January 2016

I like that the defense of no LoS on heals is L2P instead of realizing how stupid/inconsistent having no LoS for heals is...I'm not going to get into a pissing argument of hypothetical situations where LoS on heals is or isn't a L2P issue.

There is also a PvE aspect to this which Rylana and others have brought up.

Takllin · January 2016

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

It's not mashing BoL's or Ward that the challenging part of healing. It's the fact that you attract attention of every decent NB in the area as soon as you start using Breath of Life. It's keeping yourself and others alive with smart positioning and defensive moves, with players constantly pounding on you, that makes it skill-full.

Best way to drop aggro as a templar in PvP, that's using Puncturing Sweep lol. Than you wont get focused at all, because no one gives a *** about a dps-plar. Most irrelevant and least dangerous person on the battle field. Strong heal is the only thing templars have going for them in PvP sadly. Nerf that with no replacement function and templars have no reasons to enter Cyrodiil at all.

But in all fairness, this healing through walls and doors crap, needs to go. It wasn't as much of an issue back in the days, because templars spamming BoL would oom in like 30 seconds. Not the case today.

So I guess I partly agree with the OP. When you have 5 guys behind a closed solid door, spamming heals on the guys in combat outside, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean there's no actual counter against that. You cant take out those healers.

You'll still get focused down even with los, wouldn't change a thing. And DPS Templars can very well be a threat, it's just the fact most Templar skills are useless and we can't stack damage like sorcs or NBS.

But take away smart healing and you ruin the Templar class even more, no point to even play a Templar healer at that point. There's still more problems in this game such as the high damage cap, cheap one shot builds, stacking player's (which los would promote) how many nerfs must the Templar class take before we actually get buffed. Who really mains a Templar now? The Templar class is in a very *** place, yes they can be good in the right hand's but that's from experience and player skill. Very few actually pull it off..

Exactly how it should be for every class, though that's a different discussion for a different thread.

CatchMeTrolling · January 2016

Takllin wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

It's not mashing BoL's or Ward that the challenging part of healing. It's the fact that you attract attention of every decent NB in the area as soon as you start using Breath of Life. It's keeping yourself and others alive with smart positioning and defensive moves, with players constantly pounding on you, that makes it skill-full.

Best way to drop aggro as a templar in PvP, that's using Puncturing Sweep lol. Than you wont get focused at all, because no one gives a *** about a dps-plar. Most irrelevant and least dangerous person on the battle field. Strong heal is the only thing templars have going for them in PvP sadly. Nerf that with no replacement function and templars have no reasons to enter Cyrodiil at all.

But in all fairness, this healing through walls and doors crap, needs to go. It wasn't as much of an issue back in the days, because templars spamming BoL would oom in like 30 seconds. Not the case today.

So I guess I partly agree with the OP. When you have 5 guys behind a closed solid door, spamming heals on the guys in combat outside, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean there's no actual counter against that. You cant take out those healers.

You'll still get focused down even with los, wouldn't change a thing. And DPS Templars can very well be a threat, it's just the fact most Templar skills are useless and we can't stack damage like sorcs or NBS.

But take away smart healing and you ruin the Templar class even more, no point to even play a Templar healer at that point. There's still more problems in this game such as the high damage cap, cheap one shot builds, stacking player's (which los would promote) how many nerfs must the Templar class take before we actually get buffed. Who really mains a Templar now? The Templar class is in a very *** place, yes they can be good in the right hand's but that's from experience and player skill. Very few actually pull it off..

Exactly how it should be for every class, though that's a different discussion for a different thread.

Yeah you're right but unfortunately I've seen people reroll sorcs and nbs & suddenly become a threat. There's a reason Templars are underplayed & we all know why.

Takllin · January 2016

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Takllin wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

It's not mashing BoL's or Ward that the challenging part of healing. It's the fact that you attract attention of every decent NB in the area as soon as you start using Breath of Life. It's keeping yourself and others alive with smart positioning and defensive moves, with players constantly pounding on you, that makes it skill-full.

Best way to drop aggro as a templar in PvP, that's using Puncturing Sweep lol. Than you wont get focused at all, because no one gives a *** about a dps-plar. Most irrelevant and least dangerous person on the battle field. Strong heal is the only thing templars have going for them in PvP sadly. Nerf that with no replacement function and templars have no reasons to enter Cyrodiil at all.

But in all fairness, this healing through walls and doors crap, needs to go. It wasn't as much of an issue back in the days, because templars spamming BoL would oom in like 30 seconds. Not the case today.

So I guess I partly agree with the OP. When you have 5 guys behind a closed solid door, spamming heals on the guys in combat outside, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean there's no actual counter against that. You cant take out those healers.

You'll still get focused down even with los, wouldn't change a thing. And DPS Templars can very well be a threat, it's just the fact most Templar skills are useless and we can't stack damage like sorcs or NBS.

But take away smart healing and you ruin the Templar class even more, no point to even play a Templar healer at that point. There's still more problems in this game such as the high damage cap, cheap one shot builds, stacking player's (which los would promote) how many nerfs must the Templar class take before we actually get buffed. Who really mains a Templar now? The Templar class is in a very *** place, yes they can be good in the right hand's but that's from experience and player skill. Very few actually pull it off..

Exactly how it should be for every class, though that's a different discussion for a different thread.

Yeah you're right but unfortunately I've seen people reroll sorcs and nbs & suddenly become a threat. There's a reason Templars are underplayed & we all know why.

They aren't FOTM

Idinuse · January 2016

No. Kills are too easy as it is, how easy mode are you guys wanting this game to be really. Have an urge to pwn everything and everyone in game to feel elite? Healing is magick and magick doesn't need RL physics in a fantasy game. In fact, imo, heals are the only thing currently balancing, to some small extent, the über CP cap best equipment FOTM cookie cutter, easy mode win button, Steel Tornado and WB spamming builds out there. Disturbing indeed.

I think the same reasoning should be applied to any skill in the game then, including AoEs, even ground based since I would be standing in a shadow. But that isn't part of the equation of easy and quick kills now is it? Or maybe that magick is special then, of course.

Why not remove the healer class and skills completely? That way your TTK will be awesome. How fun! Or wait, healing should be present to give the illusion of balance and prolong the fight just that little that the heals make the impression of having any reason to be in the game but your kill is still inevitable?

I for one am seriously contemplating going Sorc or NB or whatever dang flavour of the month will be next, I've had it with trying to commit myself to a class that has been so neglected as Templars. I'm sure your build doesn't need any form of healer present in any way, heals just obstruct your easy kills, the rest of the game might as well be the easy mode pray since healers will be scarce as good traits on Undaunted drops.

Why can't people fathom that whatever max stats makes up your amazing DMG output, with equipment and CPs, goes for heals too? But then, when someone has maxed everything and expects to faceroll everyone, it's a surprise that stats for heals improve at the same level of max equip and CPs. But what I see is, "now that I'm maxed everything, the fact that what maxes everything on me also maxes everything on heals is imbalanced and needs to go".

Bashev · January 2016

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

I am curious how you will select who you want to heal as there is no target selection in this game? Imagine big fights 30+ vs 30+, do you think that you can find the player who you want to heal?

Healing is strong because there is smart healing but there is no smart DPS.

Joy_Division · January 2016

The anti-heal sentiment is so strong now. Just wait until the next patch if ZoS actually goes through with their nerfs on barriers and purges, gives us legit ranged AoE options, and has unpurgable heal debuffs on meatbags.

It's OK that people can dump oil and do DPS from the top of these resource towers onto the lower levels but how dare a healer use the same strategy.

And once again @FENGRUSH is complaining that he can not kill someone who has three different sources of healing on his target. "...it doesnt matter, because theres 2 BOLs happening, and a healing springs being refreshed." So apparently to have interesting gameplay, ZoS needs to make it so DPS specs can still kill players with multiple healers on them.

Oh, and you can put a healing debuff by knocking down a player. Stop gearing your character for 100% damage and use the reverberating bash skill. But no, for the sake of "balance" and interesting gameplay you want to make it so your DPS skill of choice, wrecking blow, is the highest damaging skill in the game, empowers itself, stuns the opposing player, cannot be interrupted, AND, now you want to put a heal debuff on players.

Takllin · January 2016

Idinuse wrote: »

No. Kills are too easy as it is, how easy mode are you guys wanting this game to be really. Have an urge to pwn everything and everyone in game to feel elite? Healing is magick and magick doesn't need RL physics in a fantasy game. In fact, imo, heals are the only thing currently balancing, to some small extent, the über CP cap best equipment FOTM cookie cutter, easy mode win button, Steel Tornado and WB spamming builds out there. Disturbing indeed.

I think the same reasoning should be applied to any skill in the game then, including AoEs, even ground based since I would be standing in a shadow. But that isn't part of the equation of easy and quick kills now is it? Or maybe that magick is special then, of course.

Why not remove the healer class and skills completely? That way your TTK will be awesome. How fun! Or wait, healing should be present to give the illusion of balance and prolong the fight just that little that the heals make the impression of having any reason to be in the game but your kill is still inevitable?

I for one am seriously contemplating going Sorc or NB or whatever dang flavour of the month will be next, I've had it with trying to commit myself to a class that has been so neglected as Templars. I'm sure your build doesn't need any form of healer present in any way, heals just obstruct your easy kills, the rest of the game might as well be the easy mode pray since healers will be scarce as good traits on Undaunted drops.

Why can't people fathom that whatever max stats makes up your amazing DMG output, with equipment and CPs, goes for heals too? But then, when someone has maxed everything and expects to faceroll everyone, it's a surprise that stats for heals improve at the same level of max equip and CPs. But what I see is, "now that I'm maxed everything, the fact that what maxes everything on me also maxes everything on heals is imbalanced and needs to go".

Then how come my Impulse doesn't go through walls? It's magick too!!

The rest of this is just endless rambling, not even sure what your trying to get at as it's not what the OP was about.

Takllin · January 2016

Joy_Division wrote: »

The anti-heal sentiment is so strong now. Just wait until the next patch if ZoS actually goes through with their nerfs on barriers and purges, gives us legit ranged AoE options, and has unpurgable heal debuffs on meatbags.

It's OK that people can dump oil and do DPS from the top of these resource towers onto the lower levels but how dare a healer use the same strategy.

And once again @FENGRUSH is complaining that he can not kill someone who has three different sources of healing on his target. "...it doesnt matter, because theres 2 BOLs happening, and a healing springs being refreshed." So apparently to have interesting gameplay, ZoS needs to make it so DPS specs can still kill players with multiple healers on them.

Oh, and you can put a healing debuff by knocking down a player. Stop gearing your character for 100% damage and use the reverberating bash skill. But no, for the sake of "balance" and interesting gameplay you want to make it so your DPS skill of choice, wrecking blow, is the highest damaging skill in the game, empowers itself, stuns the opposing player, cannot be interrupted, AND, now you want to put a heal debuff on players.

Your really comparing oils to healing to try and make your argument that heals should not take LoS into account?

Soris · January 2016

Do you remember what happens when they fix things? They screw up even more.

So dont touch anything unless it's copmletely broken.

technohic · January 2016

Soris wrote: »

Do you remember what happens when they fix things? They screw up even more.

So dont touch anything unless it's copmletely broken.

They need to address the cheese even if it risks breaking stuff. The game needs to have a reasonable skill rather than just spam.

This coming from someone who has pretty much only played Templar. Was at a keep seige and the lag somehow got me stuck and unable to move half in the wall and half on the outside of the back flag at a keep once. I was still able to sit there spamming BOL and healing my party even though the masses of players could not hit be from either side of the wall. It's all "LOL This is hillarious because I am invincible so all you are invincible too!" but it is not really fun game play to keep just pressing one key or maybe a purify in there.

technohic · January 2016

Bashev wrote: »

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

I am curious how you will select who you want to heal as there is no target selection in this game? Imagine big fights 30+ vs 30+, do you think that you can find the player who you want to heal?

Healing is strong because there is smart healing but there is no smart DPS.

The targeting in this game in general is bad. They already have tab targeting in game. They just need to expand and improve it to be more hard set. Leave free targeting but make tab targeting more defined.

booksmcread · January 2016

Nerf healing threads are probably the most common ones on MMO PVP forums. It's been that way since I started playing MMOs and will probably continue far into the future. In most group v group games, max potential healing is designed to slightly outpace max potential (single target) dps. This is to force opponents to coordinate and focus. But some people feel like everything should fall dead when they engage in battle. Some believe they are entitled to it. But at that point, what is the purpose of being/having healers? The LoS healing issue in ESO is something I come across so few times, it's never been an issue for me. The only times I do come across it, it's when people are farming AP, which is not part of the design of Cyrodiil, so I'm not too worried about it. But as many people have already said, changing this system would require an overhaul of the entire healing system. At the same time, you would have to treat AoE heals with the same caps as AoE damage abilities.

blabafat · January 2016

Everyone is under the misconception that I made this post because I went into Cyrodiil and had trouble 1vXing

I am not making this post because of anything related to that. The purpose of this post is to introduce an idea that adds a layer of skill to the game - in particular, healing.

@Zheg This post isn't a result of unsuccessful attempts at fighting large groups solo. If there are 6 + people with skill, of course I'm not going to kill them. I don't expect to. It's not about having trouble SPOTTING the healers. It's a poorly designed mechanic. Healing people through walls, floors, etc. makes 0 sense. Again, do you really think I should be able to spam heals on someone who is 3 stories below me?

@Idinuse As stated by @Takllin , your argument regarding magic abilities to have magical aspects, like going through walls, doesn't make any sense. Should I be able to cast a crystal frags on someone who is on the other side of the wall because crystal fragments is magical? Should my dawnbreaker go through walls?

@Joy_Division I don't understand the correlation between oils and healing through objects. You pour an oil, and if you are 6 meters(or whatever the minimum range required is) above the area you are directing your oil towards, it will pour. How does that relate to healing traveling through walls? Maybe it does, and I am missing something related to how oils work. If that's the case, please inform me(no disrespect).

technohic · January 2016

Cinbri wrote: »

LoS needed but it will increase lags a bit as we know.
Another way to fix it - zos should finally fix tempalrs to do anything else except only healings, then we would see much less healbots.
and another one - buff Honor the Dead. with current meta even after previous "buff" it became totally useless in Cyro.
And i will never tired to ask - bring back old Rushed Ceremony animation so battlefield won't transform into shinny rainbow everywhere.

This may be the single biggest reason I am for LOS on heals. So long as BOL is the best thing a templar can do, it will be the most boring game play available of spamming heals without even worrying about LOS. Even if my Templar is going to be mainly a healer, I would at least like it to be a stronger character with more complexity than just spamming the group heals.

Manoekin · January 2016

It's not a problem. If the enemy has healers out of LOS then go find the healers. The tower situation proposed is ridiculous. In such a situation if you couldn't kill the group it doesn't matter whether the healer is with the group or not.

Ara_Valleria · January 2016

To the people saying "this is a 1vXer QQ thread" or "one person shouldn't be able to kill 3 tanky healers" or "if you can't 1v5, then 3v5 or get your own pocket healer" :

Either your reading comprehension is terrible or you misunderstood why this thread was made and clearly didn't get the point @blabafat is trying to get across.
He is just pointing out a critical flaw in game game design that very few seem to understand:-

Takllin wrote: »

If we need to LoS damage, heals need to be LoS as well.

The first Question we must ask ourselves is why lazy gameplay styles like standing in an isolated-from-combat area (like on top or behind a resource tower) or a temporarily unreachable area (like behind doors) and spamming heals like BoL should be rewarded ?

Questions or concerns about the effectiveness of BoL/other healing abilities comes later.

Manoekin · January 2016

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

To the people saying "this is a 1vXer QQ thread" or "one person shouldn't be able to kill 3 tanky healers" or "if you can't 1v5, then 3v5 or get your own pocket healer" :

Either your reading comprehension is terrible or you misunderstood why this thread was made and clearly didn't get the point @blabafat is trying to get across.
He is just pointing out a critical flaw in game game design that very few seem to understand:-

Takllin wrote: »

If we need to LoS damage, heals need to be LoS as well.

The first question we must ask our self is why lazy gameplay styles like standing in an isolated-from-combat area (like on top or behind a resource tower) or a temporarily unreachable area (like behind doors) and spamming heals like BoL should be rewarded ?

Questions or concerns about the effectiveness of BoL/other healing abilities comes later.

Part of why it is effective is because it goes through LoS, so this is a question about its effectiveness.

"Lazy gameplay styles" what's lazy about it? Is the person who waits in stealth for an enemy to run by and kill them in under a second lazy? I've seen you and others do that. Building your character so that your damage is so high you can kill an enemy player in just a few hits seems lazy to me. We should nerf damage some more so we can have longer, more fun and engaging fights. Sorcs should not build for high magicka/damage builds because stacking powerful shields is just suuuuper lazy. I mean they don't even have to worry about taking damage or blocking any high damage/cc abilities. What about someone who charge spams because they can't keep up with a player that doesn't even have speed buffs?

IMO you're now trying to create an argument you can hide behind because it does sound like the issues you claim it isn't. It sounds like somebody was about to kill someone else, when that someone else received a heal from out of LOS. That sucks. There's ways to break through it still.

Tankqull · January 2016

eliisra wrote: »

9/10 healers would prefer it if smart healing got replaced with reaction/skill based targeted healing. Let me choose who to heal!

It's not mashing BoL's or Ward that the challenging part of healing. It's the fact that you attract attention of every decent NB in the area as soon as you start using Breath of Life. It's keeping yourself and others alive with smart positioning and defensive moves, with players constantly pounding on you, that makes it skill-full.

Best way to drop aggro as a templar in PvP, that's using Puncturing Sweep lol. Than you wont get focused at all, because no one gives a *** about a dps-plar. Most irrelevant and least dangerous person on the battle field. Strong heal is the only thing templars have going for them in PvP sadly. Nerf that with no replacement function and templars have no reasons to enter Cyrodiil at all.

But in all fairness, this healing through walls and doors crap, needs to go. It wasn't as much of an issue back in the days, because templars spamming BoL would oom in like 30 seconds. Not the case today.

So I guess I partly agree with the OP. When you have 5 guys behind a closed solid door, spamming heals on the guys in combat outside, it's a bit ridiculous. I mean there's no actual counter against that. You cant take out those healers.

i would agree if i actually had a way to target an ally properly like in every other MMO... but the makers of ESO decided to design fights and targeting as they did and by doing so they totaly broke any true aimed fighting and healing.

non the less LOS checks were the first thing missing when i healed for the first time during beta in cyrodiil...

Munavar · January 2016

The "a critical flaw in game game design that very few seem to understand" is the healing attached to offensive abilities.

Daveheart · January 2016

Soris wrote: »

Do you remember what happens when they fix things? They screw up even more.

So dont touch anything unless it's copmletely broken.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

bikerangelo · January 2016

I can't wait until ZOS tries to implement LoS targeting on healing mechanics and we end up tossing heals to enemy players.

themdogesbite · January 2016

If templars can still BoL through walls DK talons should be allowed to go through walls again aswell! #BuffDK