Justice System PvP - Please explain exactly WHY you are for / against this content!

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

If you are disappointed that the PvP segment of the justice system is not coming please read and post in the below thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241386/pvp-justice-system-canceled#latest

Why do you want already existing threads to be moved over to yours or contributors to go over to yours ? You should have posted in them in the first place.

Nevermind...

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

If you are disappointed that the PvP segment of the justice system is not coming please read and post in the below thread:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/241386/pvp-justice-system-canceled#latest

Your thread is not constructive in any way.

Lefty here is trying to show ZOS that people actually want the content and that they have good ideas on how to implement it without negative impact on playability.

Your thread only invites people to bycott ZOS' earnings because you're pi**ed.

Erdmanski · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I would've voted I don't care in the poll, but that wasn't an option.

I watched the video, but my concern is simply based upon the time it would take to implement it vs. the amount of players who would participate. I enjoy PVP, but I wouldn't participate in it. When I'm doing PVE content, I have no desire for PVP and vice versa.

If it were to be a toggled option as many have suggested, how many players would actually turn it on while looting items? Are there that many players out there that want to be able to be ganked? I'm guessing the majority of people asking for it are those that want to gank PVE players, not the other way around.

I honestly think that PVP players would rather ZOS spend the time working on a 1v1 / small group dueling arena instead of a system that maybe 10% of the population would participate in.

Dawnblade · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Erdmanski wrote: »

I would've voted I don't care in the poll, but that wasn't an option.

I watched the video, but my concern is simply based upon the time it would take to implement it vs. the amount of players who would participate. I enjoy PVP, but I wouldn't participate in it. When I'm doing PVE content, I have no desire for PVP and vice versa.

If it were to be a toggled option as many have suggested, how many players would actually turn it on while looting items? Are there that many players out there that want to be able to be ganked? I'm guessing the majority of people asking for it are those that want to gank PVE players, not the other way around.

I honestly think that PVP players would rather ZOS spend the time working on a 1v1 / small group dueling arena instead of a system that maybe 10% of the population would participate in.

Pretty much my thoughts.

As for actual PVP I'd like to see, I'd much prefer 3-5 player arena over solo dueling, as well as team (10-15 player) based objective PVP (could even be three faction teams) - all reasonably balanced for power level (e.g. match players or cap / boost stats to be reasonably similar - rewards of titles and vanity items).

IC and anything like it as well as the 'proposed' Justice System PVP hold zero appeal to me, then again I don't consider zerg and gank style PVP to be actual PVP, nor grind out more CP and gear to over-power others as actual PVP.

Heck - I imagine if they gave players the option select PVP servers (anywhere / anytime PVP) or PVE servers (only PVP would be instanced), the vast majority would select PVE servers.

DorianDragonRaze · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

DorianDragonRaze wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.

Wrong. There are many times in game people would be impacted seeing players fighting around. Unless phased out, such things breaks immersion into alliance quests.
Imagine one of the very first scenes in Helgen (Skyrim) right before the dragon shown up. Now add 10 players jumping and fighting around...

This is why ESO is ESO and not Skyrim, why there is no scene comparable to Helgen (except maybe the final main quest battle, but this one's instanced) : there is no such thing as "immersion" (comparable to Skyrim) in an MMO, simply because there are other players around doing their stuff. JS PvP would not change that. What difference does it make for you if other players are fighting NPCs or each other ?

ESO is a mix of MMO and Single Play. It's not Skyrim but it's Tamriel with rich history. Well thought and deep world.
First of all it's RPG, regardless of its MMO perspective. And there are thrilling and exciting quests in ESO.
And there are people who would dislike if many moments be spoiled by PvP mess around.
And *there is* such thing as immerion in ESO whether personally you experience it or not. Your point of view isn't absolute truth.
And when other people don't want to see PvP in PvE, they have own reasons made by their perception of the game.
And it *should* be taken into account.

Tandor · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Just to clarify for those who didn't see ESO Live, Matt Firor explained the reasoning behind the decision to drop the PvP aspect of the Justice System. They realised that there were just too many possibilities of game-breaking situations happening, so they want to keep PvP in PvP zones and PvE in PvE zones.

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Tandor wrote: »

Just to clarify for those who didn't see ESO Live, Matt Firor explained the reasoning behind the decision to drop the PvP aspect of the Justice System. They realised that there were just too many possibilities of game-breaking situations happening, so they want to keep PvP in PvP zones and PvE in PvE zones.

Which could be easily arranged with making some zones intact (PvP free), people who cry immersion can stay there, while making Cadwell zones PvP Justice.

Cadwell zones are not that interesting to players, and will be much more less interesting once VRs are removed (apart from skyshards and lorebooks).
So why not implement a mechanic a vast majority of the players wants into zones that will become graveyards otherwise?

Carebears can still experience the old Justice system in normal zones and be completely separated from the PvP Justice.

leepalmer95 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

How they could of implemented it:

You have an option just like attacking innocents that enables people to attack you if you have a bounty and you to attack others who have a bounty.

If you chose this mode then you have better luck/chance to pick pocket and find rarer stuff in wardrobes or such? It may encourage people to be risky as they attempt to find motives or such? Or if there stealing things to sell for gold they find higher quality things more easily e.g. instead of whites/greens they find more blue/purple/gold. It may encourage players to attempt to get there daily quota via the risk farming with pvp instead of safely stealing for a much reduced profit.

Of course with this maybe max the number of sold/laundered items to 150 if maxed ledgerman or so?

Simple risk vs reward scenario and anyone who doesn't want any part of it doesn't have too.

Was that so hard?

If you killed someone you randomly get 4 of they stolen items? or you can follow justice and return they for a reward to guards?, could be a measly 200 gold or a few k depending on the items or even quite a bit if a motif is found.

Instead of killing the person when their hp goes to 0 they could be knocked out and it counts as if they got caught by the guards and you receive some quest bounty or gold?

Could even have favour tokens with the guards and ledgerman people if you successfully return items and catch criminals you can exchange for costumes/motifs/food etc... or if you successfully steal and launder a golden item if get vip tokens which you can do the same in the ledgerman bases. Could of linked it with the thieves guild dlc.

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Although this kind of thread is usually a war between the two opposing player bases, it really should not be. There are plenty of players that enjoy both worlds, and who's to say some of the PvEer would not come to like this Justice System?

Let me make one thing perfectly clear before even beginning:
This should NOT be a fix for people who want to 1v1. Arenas are coming, that part of the PvP population will be adressed in due time.
That being said, Enforcers should have a significant advantage over Outlaws to prevent intentional fighting. Passives like 50% damage reduction from Outlaws, increased detection radius, increased CC immunity etc. should be in the Enforcer tree line.
The introduction of this system would only serve to improve and add depth to an existing PvE system that is not really interesting for a majority of the playerbase. I mean, was it intended for people to walk around with 33kk bounties?

So, I have been combing this thread for reasons why people don't want this implemented.

I will try to present a solution to each one, based on what I think should be implemented:

1. There is no room for PvP in PvE zones.

Split the zones into normal ones (same as today) and PvP ones (cadwell silver and gold). New players will still be unaffected by PvP, and veteran players can pick up dailies that send them into those zones to steal for better rewards vs greater risk. No "opt-in" solution, there would be no confusion to who can or cant' be attacked (provided they have Fugitive bounty). So, the whole PvP-free zones would still be very much alive.

2. Implementing this system is hard and can potentially ruin the experience for players.

True, it is hard, but this is their job: to provide us with worthwhile content. If ZOS can spend a lot of their time and resources on mounts, pets and costumes, they can do this Justice system. Also true it can be potentially badly implemented. Emphasis on potentially. Just if something has a chance to go wrong, does not make the effort worthless.

3. ZOS should focus their resources on more pressing matters like Cyro lag.

It is true there are matters where they should focus their resources, but that does not mean that implementing this system would somehow put everything else on hold. Cyro lag will one day be fixed. Balance issues will be fixed. Bugs will be fixed. Once all those are fixed, you are left with a smooth game without a content 80% players want to see.

4. I don't want to be ganked/forced to PvP.

This is simply not true. Nobody would be forced to PvP. There would be safe zones (5 starter zones) and PvP zones (Cadwell's). Also, even if you wish to go to Cadwell zones to collect skyshards, you could not be ganked just like that. You'd have to commit multiple crimes until you get Fugitive status before anyone can attack you. Prevent attacking innocents is a mechanic already in use.

5. I already have a 9999 gazillion bounty, and I dread of what might happen to me.

This is exactly an indication that the current system is not at all risky or balanced. Thieves walking right to a guard and slapping him in the face is not really a "sneaky" thing to do. In my opinion, these issues could be adressed with an ingame "pardon system" where the person with the bounty could work their way out of the bounty. It would mean that person should stay away from PvP (Cadwell) zones until their bounty is repaid.

6. I played another MMO with a Justice system and it was full of grievers.

If another MMO implemented some system poorly, that does not mean ESO will have a ganking mechanic also. Take some time to read any of the suggestions in this thread, and you will see that those people that do not want to participate in PvP Justice have many many ways of staying out of it. For example, staying in starter zones or not commiting multiple crimes.

7. I don't want to look at PvP. It distracts me. "Immersion".

You got me there. I got no answer to that. I guess ZOS should deprive 80% of their playerbase of a fun experience just so you can continue eating sweetrolls in peace. Okay, enough with my joking, people who are all into that immersion thing should just stay away from Cadwell zones. Go get your skyshards and get out never to return.

8. Possible exploits.

POST
Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him. Who gets the bounty? What if A purposely carries no gold? Is it subtracted from the bank? Same for contraband items. Who gets it? an Enforcer should never get the stolen items or gold that the bounty is worth (it should still be subtracted from the Outlaw) but get that many justice points that could be a requirement for an Enforcer daily completion.

Thief A has a bounty. Enforcer B kills him with help from a guard. Who gets the bounty? Is the bounty going to be split like AP? What if it's two or more player enforcers? Who gets the contraband? see above

What about wayshrining away when attacked? Very good observation, would need to work the same way as doors work now - 5 second out of combat rule.

Is this flagging system going to be active in Cyrodiil? Or cooperative activities like trials and dungeons? This system should not be active in Cyrodill and group instanced content, and be focused in PvE world maps instead.

Will NPC guards still be invincible? No, they should become killable, but very hard to kill. If we are taking into consideration my previous suggestion that the 5 starter zones (from the native alliance) are excluded from Justice PvP, those guards should stay invincible.

How will stealth work? Will Enforcers be unable to see Thieves? Can Civilians see Thieves? What about Civilian Thieves (aka people that have bounties but don't flag themselves)? Stealth would work much like in Cyro. Again, I have to reffer to my previous suggestion - don't make the opt in/out option available, make PvP and non PvP maps instead.

How would healing work? Will spells have to check whether the target is a Civilian or a Thief or an Enforcer and not affect them accordingly? see above

How would you address people who zerg around in large groups, as either Enforcers or Thieves? A VERY valid point, this system should stay small scale PvP. That is the reason in my suggestion that I think Enforcers should get a skill line with passives that significantly enhances their performance against Outlaws. Outlaws are discouraged to fight, and must turn to hiding and running IF they ever get a lvl3 bounty. Enforcers are wasting time if they zerg around waiting for a person to get a lvl3 bounty (only obtainable with NPC spotting). REMEMBER! This should not be a way for people to intentionally 1v1 or zerg. Arenas are coming eventually, that will be the place to 1v1, and hopefully we'll get balance by then.

How would you prevent the camping of Refuge entrances or Enforcer strongholds? Yet another very valid point. Refuges should sell recall scrolls, much as those in IC.

How would you address level differences between players? Is there going to be battle leveling for all who flag themselves? Again I have to point to my suggestion that leaves starter zones PvP free. PvP Justice should be promoted in battle leveled areas (DLCs excluding IC and hopefully Cadwell silver and gold)

Okay, so after giving some examples of how I think this should be implemented, can anyone give me some feedback to why phasing Justice PvP to Cadwell zones would not be a good idea?

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@Dublhiam I think that would work great, but for all the problems discussed in this thread, most of them must have been apparent on the drawing board. I've been here advocating PvP Justice and finding solutions, but thinking of it, something must have come up for ZOS to cancel it, why otherwise spend months working on it (presumably with all the issues we came up with over the course of a few days already in the back of their mind).

I wanted to bring a related point up, dueling: ZOS has said that the development of Justice PvP would give them the tools necessary to implement this feature. Brian said in December's ESO Live that they wanted dueling to happen both in normal PvE zones as well as PvP (so those worried about immersion, small-scale PvP might still be coming to PvE). In the latest ESO Live, while summing up features being worked on, Jessica confirmed dueling was still in the works. Now I wonder and want to ask: what issues might dueling not have, that Justice PvP will have when implemented in PvE zones? Possibility of large group fights? People exploiting the system by deliberately getting bounties to have 5 vs. 5 fights?

Tandor · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Dubhliam wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Just to clarify for those who didn't see ESO Live, Matt Firor explained the reasoning behind the decision to drop the PvP aspect of the Justice System. They realised that there were just too many possibilities of game-breaking situations happening, so they want to keep PvP in PvP zones and PvE in PvE zones.

Which could be easily arranged with making some zones intact (PvP free), people who cry immersion can stay there, while making Cadwell zones PvP Justice.

Cadwell zones are not that interesting to players, and will be much more less interesting once VRs are removed (apart from skyshards and lorebooks).
So why not implement a mechanic a vast majority of the players wants into zones that will become graveyards otherwise?

Carebears can still experience the old Justice system in normal zones and be completely separated from the PvP Justice.

Cadwell zones are PvE zones, and there's no reason why that should be changed. Besides, opening up more than a dozen zones to the PvP part of the Justice System is hardly going to make any difference to their overall population.

Have the PvP part of the Justice System in PvP zones by all means, I'm all for that, but let's accept as ZOS have clearly done that PvP and PvE do not mix well together. That way supporters of both playstyles can lobby for their preferred playstyle with mutual support instead of spending their time addressing each other instead of ZOS.

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

petraeus1 wrote: »

@Dublhiam I think that would work great, but for all the problems discussed in this thread, most of them must have been apparent on the drawing board. I've been here advocating PvP Justice and finding solutions, but thinking of it, something must have come up for ZOS to cancel it

I fully agree. Something happened.
IMHO it's one of two things (or both) :
- As a game-wide new mechanic, PvP justice system would have been hard to include in a DLC and shareholders insist on new stuff having to make cash
- They gave up on their ambition to mix PvP with PvE. From now on we will have two completely separate categories of players who will play in completely different zones, with completely different skills and completely different gear. I guess it's for the better, since most players enjoy only one aspect of the game, and those who enjoy both usually do it at different times with different characters. Players like me who truly enjoy the mix seem to be a tiny minority and we are the only ones to get screwed in the process.

.

HisShadowX · January 2016

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

Please read this before you vote!

I'm sorry, I know there are a number of posts on the forums about this already, but there seems to be an enormous flaw in most people's arguments against (and for) the PvP portion of the Justice System. I am going to try and clear the muddy waters.

Please remember that ZOS has never given any specific details about the implementation of the Justice System's PvP content. It seems that everyone has developed assumptions about how this PvP content would have worked, and then people formed opinions about the PvP in the Justice System based on their assumptions!

This is bad, very bad. Why are we hating on the PvP portion of the Justice System without knowing exactly how it will work? How do you know you will be forced to PvP if you want to participate in the Justice System? You don't, because you can't - no one can! ZOS has never told us how it would be implemented. All we can do is speculate. Speculation may be easier for those who have played games in the past which have had Justice System PvP components.

It is my opinion that if content is added to ESO, it should not take anything away from existing content. I think this is something we can all agree on, and honestly, I think that is what everyone has been trying to say. I think we did a poor job of vocalizing this concern. I think we attacked the Justice System PvP content without a complete understanding of what it could mean for ESO, because we were just developing opinions based on assumptions.

It is also my opinion that no one would be forced to PvP if this system was implemented! As a community, we could help ZOS through their development challenges in order to prioritize a fair update that does not ostracize any one group of players based on their play-style.

I have a video here (below) which does a much more thorough job at explaining what I am trying to get at with this poll. I have tried my best to be objective and to present information in such a way which will help you be objective too. Hopefully the specifics I talk about will help you focus your thoughts when you vote in the poll.

If you vote, please comment and explain why you voted the way you did. I want to understand what you think, what your background is, and why you have the opinion that you do.

Please try to keep in mind what would be best for ESO as an MMORPG, not what may be the most fun for you as an individual!

tl;dr: https://youtu.be/6EcKbFqicGs

timidobserver wrote: »

Honestly, when I heard about the Justice System PvP portion I was willing to settle for it because it would provide an opportunity for non-zerg PvP, but I'd much prefer structured PvP(battlegrounds, arenas,ect.)

HisShadowX · January 2016

WoW years ago had a 'dishonor' system when a faction raided a village killing NPCs casuals didn't like it and it was eventually removed. I want to hear more details

Xandryah · January 2016

another solution could be this:

there are several NPC's that give high-quality-reward-stealing-missions that have to be completed in steps in the countryside.

if you accept the mission you get flagged for pvp and you can get killed once outside the town by pvp-law-enforcers.

you have to complete a variety of small quests, in order to spot the place where you can then steal the high-quality reward.

during all this process, which can take place in different areas of Tamriel too (say... 7 steps), you can get hunted by the law-enforcers (players). These players would get a warning about the whereabouts the thief will be. Once they are in the area, they would have to use a special binocular to scan the area more accurately (comb the area from different ponts) and that binocular would show them the thief and mark him for 3 minutes or so. This is when the law-enforcers have to go for the thief. If the thief manages to not be engaged into combat during these 3 minutes, he vanishes again and law-enforcers have to comb again after a 1 minute cooldown. The thief could get a warning, once the other players are closing in.

The thief could have one or two escape-abilities (like a special scroll gotten from the NPC-quest-giver) for emergencies.
Or a special CC-area-scroll to cc players too close to him for .... maybe 60 seconds.

The law-enforcers could have other special abilities to help catch the thief.

Anyways, this system would allow to make the pvp-justice-system an activity that can be picked up like a quest. If you make it as a thief, then great; if you get caught, then you may try again or give up for the day and try tomorrow or during the night.

The loot-quality would increase, the more law-enforcers are around lurking.

This is only brainstormed, but i'm just trying to say, that simple games like hide and seek are still great games that can also be implemented into videogames.

Also, if you know the game "Scotland Yard"... that game could also provide insipiration on how to implement the 2nd part of the justice system in Tamriel.

Cheers^^...Xandryah

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

@Dublhiam I think that would work great, but for all the problems discussed in this thread, most of them must have been apparent on the drawing board. I've been here advocating PvP Justice and finding solutions, but thinking of it, something must have come up for ZOS to cancel it

I fully agree. Something happened.
IMHO it's one of two things (or both) :
- As a game-wide new mechanic, PvP justice system would have been hard to include in a DLC and shareholders insist on new stuff having to make cash
- They gave up on their ambition to mix PvP with PvE. From now on we will have two completely separate categories of players who will play in completely different zones, with completely different skills and completely different gear. I guess it's for the better, since most players enjoy only one aspect of the game, and those who enjoy both usually do it at different times with different characters. Players like me who truly enjoy the mix seem to be a tiny minority and we are the only ones to get screwed in the process.

I disagree on the first.
If they found this system to be worthwhile, it is easy as pie to restrict it to a DLC.

Like @Xandryah said, they would just have to tie the reward part of the Justice system to quests available only in a DLC zone. The system would still be available to all players that enter Cadwell zones, but (neither Outlaws nor Enforcers) would not benefit from the daily quest rewards.

petraeus1 · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Dubhliam wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

petraeus1 wrote: »

@Dublhiam I think that would work great, but for all the problems discussed in this thread, most of them must have been apparent on the drawing board. I've been here advocating PvP Justice and finding solutions, but thinking of it, something must have come up for ZOS to cancel it

I fully agree. Something happened.
IMHO it's one of two things (or both) :
- As a game-wide new mechanic, PvP justice system would have been hard to include in a DLC and shareholders insist on new stuff having to make cash
- They gave up on their ambition to mix PvP with PvE. From now on we will have two completely separate categories of players who will play in completely different zones, with completely different skills and completely different gear. I guess it's for the better, since most players enjoy only one aspect of the game, and those who enjoy both usually do it at different times with different characters. Players like me who truly enjoy the mix seem to be a tiny minority and we are the only ones to get screwed in the process.

I disagree on the first.
If they found this system to be worthwhile, it is easy as pie to restrict it to a DLC.

Like @Xandryah said, they would just have to tie the reward part of the Justice system to quests available only in a DLC zone. The system would still be available to all players that enter Cadwell zones, but (neither Outlaws nor Enforcers) would not benefit from the daily quest rewards.

Maybe one day, you know, Leyawiin, Cyrodiil but not a war-zone, however plagued by lawlessness and criminals. ^^

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Dubhliam wrote: »

I disagree on the first.
If they found this system to be worthwhile, it is easy as pie to restrict it to a DLC.

Like @Xandryah said, they would just have to tie the reward part of the Justice system to quests available only in a DLC zone. The system would still be available to all players that enter Cadwell zones, but (neither Outlaws nor Enforcers) would not benefit from the daily quest rewards.

Not enough, IMHO. People like me or @Lefty_Lucy and many others would have enjoyed the justice system for the sake of it, the depth it would have given to the entire world. Daily quest and rewards do not matter at all to us.

.

VincentBlanquin · January 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I disagree on the first.
If they found this system to be worthwhile, it is easy as pie to restrict it to a DLC.

Like @Xandryah said, they would just have to tie the reward part of the Justice system to quests available only in a DLC zone. The system would still be available to all players that enter Cadwell zones, but (neither Outlaws nor Enforcers) would not benefit from the daily quest rewards.

Not enough, IMHO. People like me or @Lefty_Lucy and many others would have enjoyed the justice system for the sake of it, the depth it would have given to the entire world. Daily quest and rewards do not matter at all to us.

.

zenimax cant handle properly manage current ingame systems, dont expect they will do more depth things

anitajoneb17_ESO · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

@VincentBlanquin : L2 be constructive, perhaps ... ?

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dubhliam wrote: »

I disagree on the first.
If they found this system to be worthwhile, it is easy as pie to restrict it to a DLC.

Like @Xandryah said, they would just have to tie the reward part of the Justice system to quests available only in a DLC zone. The system would still be available to all players that enter Cadwell zones, but (neither Outlaws nor Enforcers) would not benefit from the daily quest rewards.

Not enough, IMHO. People like me or @Lefty_Lucy and many others would have enjoyed the justice system for the sake of it, the depth it would have given to the entire world. Daily quest and rewards do not matter at all to us.

Sure, it would add a lot of depth and attract people like @Lefty_Lucy and you without any reward system attached.
But that alone would not make it meaningful enough to sell a DLC.

However, attach a gear set to rewards only obtainable through stealing or law enforcing... you have yourself a large population willing to participate in this system.

But this kind of rewards are only meaningful if the system is entangled with other players. This kind of "justice system" we have right now does not provide any risk to thieving. Nor is it fun for an extended period of time.

VincentBlanquin · January 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@VincentBlanquin : L2 be constructive, perhaps ... ?

ok, i am for this content

but zos obviously has not unlimited resources for pvp development so they probably just stay before deciding

1. capturing district- towns
2. arena- battleground
3. justice pvp

so they decide nr1. first, nr2. second and i agree that justice pvp is least important and most risky of all three to deliver in bad state

Dubhliam · January 2016

I am in favor of Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@VincentBlanquin : L2 be constructive, perhaps ... ?

ok, i am for this content

but zos obviously has not unlimited resources for pvp development so they probably just stay before deciding

1. capturing district- towns
2. arena- battleground
3. justice pvp

so they decide nr1. first, nr2. second and i agree that justice pvp is least important and most risky of all three to deliver in bad state

I agree.
Those are all points on how to improve ESO's PvP experience, and Justice is the least important in that respect.

News flash- the Justice system is currently a PvE only system and in light of the incoming DLCs I really think they should have decided to improve the current half-baked (PvE)system into something it was supposed to be in the first place.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have played at least one game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Dubhliam wrote: »

VincentBlanquin wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

@VincentBlanquin : L2 be constructive, perhaps ... ?

ok, i am for this content

but zos obviously has not unlimited resources for pvp development so they probably just stay before deciding

1. capturing district- towns
2. arena- battleground
3. justice pvp

so they decide nr1. first, nr2. second and i agree that justice pvp is least important and most risky of all three to deliver in bad state

I agree.
Those are all points on how to improve ESO's PvP experience, and Justice is the least important in that respect.

News flash- the Justice system is currently a PvE only system and in light of the incoming DLCs I really think they should have decided to improve the current half-baked (PvE)system into something it was supposed to be in the first place.

Well, if it's half-baked for PvE atm they could just fix the PvE experience as any PvP added to the world as a whole would most likely just break the game, concidering how zenimax have worked before, just leaving things broken for months and ignoring people complaining about it.

DaveMoeDee · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

I am not opposed to having a PvP justice system. I just shouldn't have any impact on me whatsoever unless I decide to go do it. If I steal all day in Glenumbra and have a 1 million bounty, I should still be just playing PvE in Glenumbra. If I want PvP, I will go to a PvP zone.

I have no problem with adding a system like this in a new zone. I do have a problem with an opt in system that gives higher rewards as the stealing rewards are already pretty good and increasing them will lead to ridiculous exploits. Considering people already waste a ring slot on Ring of Mara for minimal benefit, imagine what people would do when playing together if they can get benefits from the justice system? They could just do a bunch of naked killing and stealing around each wayshrine until there is nothing left to steal or kill.

I would enjoy a PvP justice system in a new PvE-centric zone that has particular stealing or assassination jobs that other players are supposed to thwart. But PvP because they have a bounty seems a horrible idea. What happens to the bounty if they are killed? Does it go down? How much? If not by much, doesn't that mean they will just get killed over and over again? If it goes down a lot, won't we just see exploits where people run up 1 million bounties and then ask a friend to kill them after they have already laundered items?

And what would the enforcer get from the exchange? Items or gold from the person killed? What if they have no stolen items on them and no gold? Ideally, the system is part of something new that has a novel reward that makes sense. What would that be? I have no idea. But any rewards based on killing someone are easily exploited unless the rewards are low or have drastically diminishing returns.

DaveMoeDee · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

petraeus1 wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

It all comes down to this...Money.

As it stands right now, ZOS is not going to add new features to the game unless you can only get those features with a DLC. Adding in a PVP Justice System would have to apply to the entire game which means ZOS would have to put it in a reg update and not a DLC thus they realized this wouldn't work so they scraped the plans.

...

Why? Why can't they add another PvP DLC down the line? They did IC, and sure, many people don't like it in its current state, but I can completely imagine a zone in which Justice PvP was a thing, without it affecting vanilla ESO. I heard all Markarth's and Solitude's guards died fighting off Dark Anchors, and an influx of Imperial deserters, organized under the name 'Ooh, shiny', is harassing those cities stealing valuables and murdering travelers. BAM. Zone: PvE content, Justice system, only difference: here there are player guards. Battle-leveling, intelligent zone design, flagging system if you will.

The only reason this won't be done, is if they reckon a normal PvE DLC would be more popular. Maybe. I think it's great to have something different. Only appealing to the masses makes for a potentially bland MMO. But hey, who am I? I don't know.

Bland is subjective. Battle grounds are bland and boring. There is a reason so many games want PvP. No need to think deeply to create interesting content. Just throw people in a room together and let them kill each other over and over. Good storytelling is delicious. Subjective.

DaveMoeDee · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

petraeus1 wrote: »

@azraelkrieg I think holding on to the Justice System as a world wide thing is odd. The problems are obvious, so you'd rather not have it. But why does it have to be world wide? Cyrodiil isn't world wide? Just because they said it would be world wide 1,5 years ago? I know too little about ZOS' plans to give a verdict, but I'd much rather have one or two zones with Justice PvP than no Justice PvP at all, or even Justice PvP everywhere. There's no need to try to make it global imo.

Then it isn't actually part of the justice system. It is something else.

I am all for another PvP zone that isn't based on faction, but based on another criteria. That could be very interesting. It could be like the justice system where you can only attack people when they are the other group AND something was done to trigger it. Both sides should be able to gank. It should just be enforcers who can gank thieves. Thieves should be able to gank enforcers too.

But this should never occur in Glenumbra or other PvP zones. It should only happen in a zone that was sold from day one as a zone that has PvP.

The rewards also have to be very low or of limited use because exploitation is really easy.

DaveMoeDee · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

If you think a rationally worded argument, raising concerns about the way this debate is being framed, is based around a sense of entitlement... while not actually bothering to address the points made... well, then maybe your time really would have been better spent concentrating on your food because you sure-as-heck aren't contributing anything useful here.

And you sure as heck do not contribute to a polite and constructive exchange of views.
Your basic argumentation looks elaborate but it can be summarized as "I don't want it because I don't like it and therefore don't need it. I will not tolerate it either for the sake of other players who might enjoy it because I don't care about anyone else but myself".

The part where you state that whatever guard/thief fight occurring near you disrupts your bank operations deserves no more than "come on Dude..." but if you really want a detailed explanation, here it is : this is an MMO, which means a shared playground, if you're not ready to endure such basic events like a fight near you, you'd better play a single player game.

As to the argument that "it wasn't advertised as such when I bought the base game", itsounds very opportunistic. With arguments like that, you could put down any innovative step from ZOS that would not have been announced in 2014 already. If it was something you'd actually like, and someone else would come with such an argument, you'd find it just as out of place.

MMO are meant to evolve, else they die. That's their nature. Arguing that they cannot be different from what they were at launch is just nonsensical when it comes to MMOs.

.

Inserting me into PvP because I have a bounty in Glenumbra isn't evolution. It is growth, like a malignant tumor.

I think something like the PvP justice system would be cool in a new zone build for it and sold as that. It is not a good idea to break the current PvE justice system in order to introduce ganking into PvE zones.

I completely agree with your comment about bank operations being interrupted.

DaveMoeDee · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Celestially wrote: »

Here is my opinion.
I have never played a game like this and have never expirenced a justice system before
I am for the justice system here's why.
I believe its important for "ZOSE" to see all aspects of the game weather its pve or PvP this system will further add to the PvP system and at the same time add depth to the pve system. This justice system if done correctly sounds like it will be extremely fun to participate in and if it doesn't sound so fun to you than there should be a toggle to the justice system to be a participater or a by stander . If they add this system it will only bring in more players and unite the current players. the people of ESO will be able to create guilds of thevies and criminals and than the people can make guilds of officers of the law . I try to understand both sides to this but personally I don't see why putting this in the game (IF DONE CORRECTLY) would do any negative in the game.
Thanks for reading my opinion.

Unfortunately, "if done correctly" is too hard to just inject into parentheses.

The safest system is one that is completely optional through a toggle and has minimal rewards for participation because of how easy it is to exploit. Such a system would likely lead to as many complaints as we have here now as people would complain that the system isn't worth it without better rewards. So ZOS would invest in a ton of development work for a system that will just lead to a lot more complaining. Any system that isn't complete opt-in and took place in current PvE zones would be a disaster.

Considering the current lag already in towns, I would love to see what happens when large groups take part in justice wars and spam AOEs.

DaveMoeDee · January 2016

I am against Justice System PvP and I have never played a game with Justice System PvP content in the past

Egonieser wrote: »

Keep current justice system as is and add a opt-in PvP version of it.
It would have greater rewards in terms of gold if you are successful due to the fact you have real live guards after you.
Everyone wins.

Those that are fine and comfortable with PvP have their way and those that that favour current PvE-based justice system have their way aswell - nothing would change for them as they never opted in for the PvP component.

Variety is a spice of life and is a good thing. Limiting and restraining options is not. Dunno why people don't get that.

Better rewards is not a good idea. Exploiting is too easy. Look at PvP. The rewards for individual kills are not high. They are even in a completely different currency. The reward should be that you get to do PvP and you enjoy that.

Also, in any such system, thieves should be able to initiate combat against enforcers. This is needed so that enforcers aren't able to just camp out at key spots. One significant problem would be if enforcers can attack as soon as there is a thief. If there are 10 enforcers waiting and 10 thieves who want to steal, not all of the thieves would have bounty immediately. You end up with the thieves getting picked off one by one unless you make it always on combat between enforcers and criminals. If that is the case, it is now a PvP zone.