PvP Justice System Canceled

cjddrumnub19_ESO

Well as most of you know, ZOS canceled the PvP segment of the justice system, the one that they have been talking about for over a year now. They canceled it less then a month before it was supposed to start testing in PTS. From what we currently understand the next PvP oriented DLC won't come for another year or more and it is "Faction-based Battle Grounds"... which we can already do by just asking people in another faction to duel... I came to this game at beta with the PvP crowd, it was the BIGGEST crowd base that came to this game. After the horrible launch about half of the PvP'ers left, and almost all the Skyrim crowd left after one month. Over half of the player base is still PvP'ers. I am sick of ZOS screwing us at every turn, than acting like "Oh we decided we didn't feel like adding the biggest PvP patch to date for you guys, but you can still go claim a keep for your guild!" If we are ever going to get ZOS to actually listen to their players we have to remind them who pays their bills, which means we have to VOTE WITH OUR DOLLAR! I will not be buying anything from Zos, that includes crowns, DLC's, and subscription. If you are a PvP'er or a PvE'er for that matter (They have not updated the trials from VR12 or DSA from VR14, AND they released Orsinium with two public dungeons instead of real group PvE content...), then I ask that you please vote with your dollar. Stop buying their "DLCs" which are really just a $30 quest-line, don't buy their cosmetics, and don't pay sub. Also if you agree post it here so they have have an idea how many people are angry and will not be paying them anymore.

Thank you for reading this and I hope we can get enough support to make ZOS at least try to think what is best for the game:

-Showlor,
PvP'er since Beta

Sallington

"Do.....

Do you want to by a bear mount?"

-ZOS

forzajuve212

It is a real shame that ZOS passed up a chance to create an engaging and unique way to PVP in the existing PVE zones. Could it have been unbalanced at the start? Sure. Is that something that can be fixed and changed? Of course! Simply saying "oh it might upset people" isn't a reason for not creating real content that is player driven.

PrinceBoru

Speak for yourself.
I enjoy the game as is.
My advice to you is to move on.
We game to have fun.
If your not having fun play another game.

Smitch_59

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

Over half of the player base is still PvP'ers.

Really? What is your source for this statement? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly curious.

Zorrashi

I don't think the PvPer crowd is as large as you make it out to be. Perhaps in the healthy 40 to 56% range but no more.

That being said, do have a good day. If you truly are as disgruntled as you appear, then might I suggest Camelot Unchained or Black Desert? I'm no PvPer but I hear those are promising PvP oriented candidates.

forzajuve212

PrinceBoru wrote: »

Speak for yourself.
I enjoy the game as is.
My advice to you is to move on.
We game to have fun.
If your not having fun play another game.

The problem is that they are destroying whatever is left of the PVP community in this game. This game doesn't have a long future if they continue the current path of pushing aside and ignoring the horrible state of PVP.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

This thread has a good discussion of this unfortunate announcement. Anyone who views this as good thing has perhaps not considered the larger implications of ZOS abandoning/shelving its sandbox-y or player-driven concepts in favor of static gear and zone treadmills.

Zorrashi

forzajuve212 wrote: »

PrinceBoru wrote: »

Speak for yourself.
I enjoy the game as is.
My advice to you is to move on.
We game to have fun.
If your not having fun play another game.

The problem is that they are destroying whatever is left of the PVP community in this game. This game doesn't have a long future if they continue the current path of pushing aside and ignoring the horrible state of PVP.

Who says their ignoring it? One project abandoned and people talk like its the end of world.

Apart from your eventual chance in the presumed DLC rotation (PvP, solo PvE, group PvE, repeat), the secs have also let it be known that they are willing to update IC. Furthermore, they have made it no secret that they are continuously working on Cyrodil performance even if their results have thence forth been underwhelming.

forzajuve212

Zorrashi wrote: »

forzajuve212 wrote: »

PrinceBoru wrote: »

Speak for yourself.
I enjoy the game as is.
My advice to you is to move on.
We game to have fun.
If your not having fun play another game.

The problem is that they are destroying whatever is left of the PVP community in this game. This game doesn't have a long future if they continue the current path of pushing aside and ignoring the horrible state of PVP.

Who says their ignoring it? One project abandoned and people talk like its the end of world.

Apart from your eventual chance in the presumed DLC rotation (PvP, solo PvE, group PvE, repeat), the secs have also let it be known that they are willing to update IC. Furthermore, they have made it no secret that they are continuously working on Cyrodil performance even if their results have thence forth been underwhelming.

If you were an active PVPer then you would know they are ignoring it. Broken skills, class unbalance, lag lag and lag, and lag and lag. By ignoring, I mean their incremental changes are so slow and useless that PVP is effectively being put on the back burner in favor of bear mounts and more quests. Cater to the casuals and exclude your hardcore players is a recipe for disaster.

Sord

Smitch_59 wrote: »

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

Over half of the player base is still PvP'ers.

Really? What is your source for this statement? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly curious.

@Smitch_59 here is @Lefty_Lucy poll that he did regarding pvp for the justice system and if the pole is any indicator of what our community wants it is PVP 75% vs 25% who don't want it in the Justice System.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240929/justice-system-pvp-please-explain-exactly-why-you-are-for-against-this-content/p1

Tandor

I hope the mods are merging these threads, we only need so many.

i personally welcome the decision to cancel the PvP aspect of the Justice System. It strengthens my resolve to continue playing my two accounts, but I can appreciate the PvPers' disappointment. However, it is not the end of the world, and it need not be the end of the game for them. They are, after all, getting duels on top of last year's PvP DLC and I'm sure ZOS have no intention of abandoning PvP. Indeed, they are clearly still putting a lot of effort into improving the performance in Cyrodiil.

riverdragon72

I'd say 80% of the pvp'rs left.

Sallington

Tandor wrote: »

I hope the mods are merging these threads, we only need so many.

i personally welcome the decision to cancel the PvP aspect of the Justice System. It strengthens my resolve to continue playing my two accounts, but I can appreciate the PvPers' disappointment. However, it is not the end of the world, and it need not be the end of the game for them. They are, after all, getting duels on top of last year's PvP DLC and I'm sure ZOS have no intention of abandoning PvP. Indeed, they are clearly still putting a lot of effort into improving the performance in Cyrodiil.

I really wish people would stop calling Imperial city a PvP DLC.

JD2013

I don't get why this bothers "hardcore" PVP'ers so much. It was hardly going to be a massive hardcore PVP thing.

I get that PVP needs new things. I agree that it needs new things. Cyrodiil needs new objectives besides balling up to capture keeps. Imperial City needs district capture amongst other things.

But this would have been rather a dull addition, and i bet the novelty would have worn off very quickly. And there would definitely have been even more "nerf X class" topics. Because this may be one of the biggest things as to why it was cancelled. This game is not balanced for 1V1 PVP. Nor did it state that it was.

They're going to have a lot of work ahead of them to get Arenas right.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Sord wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

Over half of the player base is still PvP'ers.

Really? What is your source for this statement? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly curious.

@Smitch_59 here is @Lefty_Lucy poll that he did regarding pvp for the justice system and if the pole is any indicator of what our community wants it is PVP 75% vs 25% who don't want it in the Justice System.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240929/justice-system-pvp-please-explain-exactly-why-you-are-for-against-this-content/p1

This is a total misinterpretation.
I voted yes to that poll because I want the PvP justice system BUT I am a 95% PvEer.
PvEers also have good reason for wanting it implemented.
This poll does not reflect by any mean the proportion of the playerbase in PvP/PvE/both.

reften

ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »

This thread has a good discussion of this unfortunate announcement. Anyone who views this as good thing has perhaps not considered the larger implications of ZOS abandoning/shelving its sandbox-y or player-driven concepts in favor of static gear and zone treadmills.

Agree 100%. So much of their player base plays for #1 reason. RVR/PVP war. This had potential to add to that fun, keep us players engaged.

Total bummer

Sallington

JD2013 wrote: »

I don't get why this bothers "hardcore" PVP'ers so much. It was hardly going to be a massive hardcore PVP thing.

I get that PVP needs new things. I agree that it needs new things. Cyrodiil needs new objectives besides balling up to capture keeps. Imperial City needs district capture amongst other things.

But this would have been rather a dull addition, and i bet the novelty would have worn off very quickly. And there would definitely have been even more "nerf X class" topics. Because this may be one of the biggest things as to why it was cancelled. This game is not balanced for 1V1 PVP. Nor did it state that it was.

They're going to have a lot of work ahead of them to get Arenas right.

It wasn't just a PvP thing, it was good for the overall health of the game. More character interaction, more depth, more player-driven content.

cjddrumnub19_ESO

One of the main problems with this is not only that they are not implementing a system they have been talking about of over a year. (Also keep in mind that the last ESO live they said it was coming THIS patch). The main problem is that they are not putting forth any effort whatsoever to add to, or even fix the problems with PvP. For those of you saying that they have been working hard on it then... HAHAHAHAHA.... You must not be a PvP'er or even played any other MMO before. Also IC is nice... If it had any incentive still. They said they are "willing to update IC"... that sounds more like "Just buy our new bear mount and forget about everything you have seen".

-Showlor

JD2013

Sallington wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

I don't get why this bothers "hardcore" PVP'ers so much. It was hardly going to be a massive hardcore PVP thing.

I get that PVP needs new things. I agree that it needs new things. Cyrodiil needs new objectives besides balling up to capture keeps. Imperial City needs district capture amongst other things.

But this would have been rather a dull addition, and i bet the novelty would have worn off very quickly. And there would definitely have been even more "nerf X class" topics. Because this may be one of the biggest things as to why it was cancelled. This game is not balanced for 1V1 PVP. Nor did it state that it was.

They're going to have a lot of work ahead of them to get Arenas right.

It wasn't just a PvP thing, it was good for the overall health of them. More character interaction, more depth, more player-driven content.

I also agree that new systems are needed. But it doesn't take away from the fact that 1V1 PVP likely didn't go well in this game.

Is there a system like this in any other MMO?

cjddrumnub19_ESO

JD2013 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

I don't get why this bothers "hardcore" PVP'ers so much. It was hardly going to be a massive hardcore PVP thing.

I get that PVP needs new things. I agree that it needs new things. Cyrodiil needs new objectives besides balling up to capture keeps. Imperial City needs district capture amongst other things.

But this would have been rather a dull addition, and i bet the novelty would have worn off very quickly. And there would definitely have been even more "nerf X class" topics. Because this may be one of the biggest things as to why it was cancelled. This game is not balanced for 1V1 PVP. Nor did it state that it was.

They're going to have a lot of work ahead of them to get Arenas right.

It wasn't just a PvP thing, it was good for the overall health of them. More character interaction, more depth, more player-driven content.

I also agree that new systems are needed.

Is there a system like this in any other MMO?

Actually there is a system like this in MANY MMO's flagging-based PvP and justice systems are one of the most common systems for an MMO.

JD2013

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

I don't get why this bothers "hardcore" PVP'ers so much. It was hardly going to be a massive hardcore PVP thing.

I get that PVP needs new things. I agree that it needs new things. Cyrodiil needs new objectives besides balling up to capture keeps. Imperial City needs district capture amongst other things.

But this would have been rather a dull addition, and i bet the novelty would have worn off very quickly. And there would definitely have been even more "nerf X class" topics. Because this may be one of the biggest things as to why it was cancelled. This game is not balanced for 1V1 PVP. Nor did it state that it was.

They're going to have a lot of work ahead of them to get Arenas right.

It wasn't just a PvP thing, it was good for the overall health of them. More character interaction, more depth, more player-driven content.

I also agree that new systems are needed.

Is there a system like this in any other MMO?

Actually there is a system like this in MANY MMO's flagging-based PvP and justice systems are one of the most common systems for an MMO.

No I get that there's flagged PVP in other MMO's, I've played a few.

I mean is there a PVP justice system like this in any other MMO?

cjddrumnub19_ESO

Yes there are, actually they are normally a lot better then this. A good example is Archeage and their Justice system. Also before anyone comments, yes, I know that Archeage is almost dead, but that was caused by entirely different factors, the only thing that keeps it alive is the player driven Justice System.

Waffennacht

I am disappointed

JD2013

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

Yes there are, actually they are normally a lot better then this. A good example is Archeage and their Justice system. Also before anyone comments, yes, I know that Archeage is almost dead, but that was caused by entirely different factors, the only thing that keeps it alive is the player driven Justice System.

I just watched a video on it, and it does actually look a lot of fun. But this is not how ZOS would likely have implemented it. It would have likely always been kill on sight, and no jail.

And I just wonder how compatible this would have been for the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests, which I assume will feature a lot of crime committing. With those guild questlines, the variables for griefing would have possibly been very high.


Though I'm sad I can't go and catch criminal scum.

GreenSoup2HoT

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cjddrumnub19_ESO

JD2013 wrote: »

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

Yes there are, actually they are normally a lot better then this. A good example is Archeage and their Justice system. Also before anyone comments, yes, I know that Archeage is almost dead, but that was caused by entirely different factors, the only thing that keeps it alive is the player driven Justice System.

I just watched a video on it, and it does actually look a lot of fun. But this is not how ZOS would likely have implemented it. It would have likely always been kill on sight, and no jail.

And I just wonder how compatible this would have been for the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests, which I assume will feature a lot of crime committing.

Yeah, I think it would have integrated perfectly with thieves guild and DB. The reasoning would be that if you don't get caught committing crimes and get a large bounty, (Which is EXTREMELY easy) then you can choose to flag if you want for PvP. I really can't find a down side, if you don't want to PvP, DON'T FLAG FOR PVP, it is that simple.

Divinius

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

Well as most of you know, ZOS canceled the PvP segment of the justice system...

{blah, blah, blah... same stuff new thread.}

Did you really need to make a whole new thread, AND link to it in all the other pre-existing threads on the subject?

Classy.

Smitch_59

Sord wrote: »

Smitch_59 wrote: »

cjddrumnub19_ESO wrote: »

Over half of the player base is still PvP'ers.

Really? What is your source for this statement? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm truly curious.

@Smitch_59 here is @Lefty_Lucy poll that he did regarding pvp for the justice system and if the pole is any indicator of what our community wants it is PVP 75% vs 25% who don't want it in the Justice System.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/240929/justice-system-pvp-please-explain-exactly-why-you-are-for-against-this-content/p1

I've seen this poll. There are currently 352 votes, which is really statistically insignificant compared to the total player base. I don't think any meaningful conclusions can be drawn from the poll given the relatively small sample size.

ThatNeonZebraAgain

Sallington wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

I hope the mods are merging these threads, we only need so many.

i personally welcome the decision to cancel the PvP aspect of the Justice System. It strengthens my resolve to continue playing my two accounts, but I can appreciate the PvPers' disappointment. However, it is not the end of the world, and it need not be the end of the game for them. They are, after all, getting duels on top of last year's PvP DLC and I'm sure ZOS have no intention of abandoning PvP. Indeed, they are clearly still putting a lot of effort into improving the performance in Cyrodiil.

I really wish people would stop calling Imperial city a PvP DLC.

Totally agree.

It's also a red herring to compare the Imperial City and the Justice System PvP/Enforcer system. IC is simply a PvE zone where you can encounter enemy players from other factions. That's it, that's the extent of its PvP nature. From Dominoid's excellent datamining and summarization post, JS PvP/Enforcers would be more like if you could only choose Mage's or Fighter's Guild, and once joining one of them, could possibly kill someone from the other guild IF they got a large enough bounty on their head:

Dominoid wrote:

Through game mechanics still to be finalized, players can join an “Enforcer Guild” that allows players to hunt down wanted criminals in the world. Players will need to choose to be thieves or enforcers (or remain neutral and ignore the system), but can’t be both at the same time. Just like you can switch between vampire and werewolf on the same character, you will be able to “change” your mind somewhat at will in the Justice System as well.

Like becoming a WW or Vampire, you have to seek out the calling, which grants you particular abilities or experiences in the game. So, unlike IC, JS PvP/Enforcers would NOT have been some gankfest everywhere equating to the wanton killing of anyone pilfering a desk in the bank. Yea, a system like that would be illogical and crappy. But that's not even close to what ZOS apparently had in mind, and thinking that's what it would be like misses the entire point of the system.

Unlike IC, the point of the JS PvP/Enforcer type of player vs player interaction isn't accumulating/stealing a currency (AP or TV stones) or items for decon for mats. The point is about playing a role in the gameworld and creating a more thrilling and dynamic experience where your actions in supposedly 'normal' zones actually become meaningful. (Not to mention, IC in its current form is a very watered down and grind-focused iteration of its original design, which had PvP objectives/rewards tied to the faction war.)

So, the way players would fight each other and how that would look/feel in the gameworld between IC and the JS PvP/Enforcer are fundamentally different, which is why it would be a bad idea to judge the success of one on the other, especially when the way IC was implemented was a poor shadow of its original design. What the lack of a dynamic Justice Systems (and Spellcrafting) means is that ESO now looks like it is abandoning its sanbox-y and player-driven design ideas. From the Year Ahead post, it is clear that ESO's content development is squarely focused on easily completable and segmented DLCs that are a safe bet business-wise. There are no innovative ideas on the horizon, and as such will be less able to compete with upcoming MMOs that are moving past themepark design and bringing back the challenge of meaningful gameplay.

Spacemonkey

JD2013 wrote: »

No I get that there's flagged PVP in other MMO's, I've played a few.

I mean is there a PVP justice system like this in any other MMO?

TQ has that in most of theirs. Newbie zones and Market are always neutral /protected (unless you force the game to attack in which you end up insta-killed)

Subsequent zones have towns protected by guards (but pvp is enabled) - you can pvp to your hearts content but gain infamy if its too much too fast. Becoming 'infamous' allows others to attack you with no penalties and/or guards to attack you on sight - as well as incuring an inventory penalty (drop) but then these mmos have you drop stuff on death regardless.

The problem with ESO is they approach this as a PvE (co-op rpg) and your classic mmorpg (pvp) at the same time, and do not seem to be able to commit to one or the other. So you get false advert on it as a classic pvp heavy mmorpg (with the 3 alliances war and all) - and then they attempt to force everyone into the co-op rpg threadmill with large scale matchmaking. In my books, this isnt a pvp mmorpg.