Magdalina wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?

Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).

What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.

That does impact me if I'm doing a quest and I see people PvPing around me. Most quests are not solo phased and PvP would completely break immersion. ESO may not have started out as being a PvE game with PvP in Cyrodiil, but it ended up that way and the reason it is so popular is because of the PvE, not the PvP.

It's not even that I'm a PvPer but I don't think I understand this argument.
...

all those things don't break your immersion, but PvPing people would? Why?

I also seriously do not understand this point of view.

We aren't playing Skyrim. This is an MMO. You don't want to see other players engaging in a dynamic world? Then why are you on an MMO?

The immersion argument makes absolutely no sense to me... This doesn't mean I don't respect your right to an opinion. I just don't see how it could apply here.

Supersnake_Lx wrote: »

I for one am happy they made that decision. Not because I'm afraid I won't like the system, but because it is a guaranty that it would have been imbalanced and badly implemented. ZOS has yet to prove to us that they can do something right the first time around.
I could already see the future; people complaining, asking to either fix it or remove it. I would rather they leave that for now to fix Cyrodiil and prepare the battleground system. Stop asking for more when what you have is so broken.

So do you feel this way about literally every single content update? Because nothing you said here is exclusive to Justice System PvP. With your argument, I don't see how you can be against Justice System PvP and not be against any other content update - including battlegrounds which you just mentioned.

Essentially, "they can't do it right, so I'm glad that they aren't even trying" can be extended to literally every update.

petraeus1 wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

Supersnake_Lx wrote: »

I for one am happy they made that decision. Not because I'm afraid I won't like the system, but because it is a guaranty that it would have been imbalanced and badly implemented. ZOS has yet to prove to us that they can do something right the first time around.
I could already see the future; people complaining, asking to either fix it or remove it. I would rather they leave that for now to fix Cyrodiil and prepare the battleground system. Stop asking for more when what you have is so broken.

So do you feel this way about literally every single content update? Because nothing you said here is exclusive to Justice System PvP. With your argument, I don't see how you can be against Justice System PvP and not be against any other content update - including battlegrounds which you just mentioned.

Essentially, "they can't do it right, so I'm glad that they aren't even trying" can be extended to literally every update.

Admittedly, PvP Justice is a tad bit more complicated than another straightforward PvE zone, and way easier to mess up. We're only busy for two days, aren't even devs on the game and already have discussed many potential problems. However, I want ambitious things like this. Themepark rides will grow old at some point, whereas systems like these offer emergent gameplay that is never the same. But hey.

I agree with you. Justice PvP is definitely a complicated task. But this is a terrible reason for ZOS to abandon it. It is also, in my opinion, a terrible reason for the community to give up on the content.

They haven't even tried yet. Don't put them down before they try...

Hm, well on not really related but at least somewhat positive note - I think doing this thread alone upped your forum level, @Lefty_Lucy I seem to remember you only having 3 stars under your name when I read this yesterday.
So, like, even when if ZOS just ignores you and the community all again you can at least feel the community loves you...or something

It's not coming.
Deal with it.

I want to thank everyone again for voting and for sharing their opinions.

This is pretty much the only topic in ESO that will draw out this much passion from me, so I am happy to see that I was able to accomplish something with this post. I made this post because I wanted to see what everyone thought about this content, and what each person's background is when they share their opinion.

Let's take a look at the poll as it stands right now.



These results meet my expectations. My hypothesis was that most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content. This is evidently true. 62% of voters who oppose this content have never played a game with content like this.

I also expected that most people who have played games with justice system PvP content would be in favor of this update to ESO. This is also true. 78% of voters who have played justice system PvP content in other games are in favor of this update.

Finally, I expected more people to be in favor of this update. Also true. 79% of voters are in favor of justice system PvP content in ESO.


After the announcement by @ZOS_MattFiror , I was disappointed to see what people were saying on other posts about this topic. I tried my hardest with this post to express that we should not be assuming anything about the implementation of the Justice System PVP.

Unfortunately, there still seems to be a lot of people who voted in this thread that are still holding the opinion that this update would mean they could no longer steal things without having to worry about PvP. I don't think I can count how many times I have expressed that this assumption is invalid. I was hoping people would read/listen to this, take a moment and think about what could have been, and vote differently. Oh well.

There are other reasons against this content in ESO, most of which make no logical sense to me, but there are a few sound arguments within this thread.

It is still my personal opinion that this content should not have been abandoned by ZOS.

All in all, I know this post won't change anything. Even if all the ZOS employees that were tagged in this thread read the post, we won't see results. We know this from the past. We know how this works. I would be astonished to even see a ZOS reply in this thread.

Nothing will happen. We have lost the one update that, in my opinion, had the highest probability for the increasing the longevity of ESO as an MMORPG. This upsets me greatly.

I love this game. I want to want to play ESO. I just don't want to play ESO anymore, especially when the future looks so dull.

Hopefully ESO can survive the coming wave of MMORPG releases in 2016. I really hope it can. I just don't think it will. Of course there will always be people playing this game. But this really could have been a great MMORPG. Maybe it still can, but we just took a big step in the wrong direction.

I'll be back to ESO some day. I hope I will want to stay when I return.

Thanks again everyone.

- Lefty Lucy

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

would completely break immersion.

The realm of Nirn is wholly based on conflict. War, politics, subjugation, hostile environments, and all things evil are the reality for Tamriel. There are even guilds solely dedicated to such deviant behavior as thieving and assassination. The entire immersion of Elder Scrolls is deciding how you handle a world consumed in perpetual conflict, be it the Glorious Hero or the Maniacal Murderer. A player based justice system (opt-in favorably) is perhaps the most immersive thing that could be added to ESO. It reflects the design of societies at large through the history of Tamriel and irl Earth. Otherwise we wouldn't have words to describe things as "guards" or "police." Maybe you've never seen or heard a police siren, or maybe you never seen drunkards in a bout or worse... But they are a reality. I would welcome the sight of a thief being brought to justice or an assassin getting his mark. That is the world of Tamriel, and allowing player to participate will only add another dynamic element to Tamriel. Yes the gardens of Auridon are lovely to walk, the jungles of Greenshade wild, Wrothgar harsh, Alik'r hot, Stonefalls hotter still, Stromhaven stormy, and Blackmarsh......well damp.... But the people of Tamriel inhabit the world, good and bad.

Bazeric wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

would completely break immersion.

The realm of Nirn is wholly based on conflict. War, politics, subjugation, hostile environments, and all things evil are the reality for Tamriel. There are even guilds solely dedicated to such deviant behavior as thieving and assassination. The entire immersion of Elder Scrolls is deciding how you handle a world consumed in perpetual conflict, be it the Glorious Hero or the Maniacal Murderer. A player based justice system (opt-in favorably) is perhaps the most immersive thing that could be added to ESO. It reflects the design of societies at large through the history of Tamriel and irl Earth. Otherwise we wouldn't have words to describe things as "guards" or "police." Maybe you've never seen or heard a police siren, or maybe you never seen drunkards in a bout or worse... But they are a reality. I would welcome the sight of a thief being brought to justice or an assassin getting his mark. That is the world of Tamriel, and allowing player to participate will only add another dynamic element to Tamriel. Yes the gardens of Auridon are lovely to walk, the jungles of Greenshade wild, Wrothgar harsh, Alik'r hot, Stonefalls hotter still, Stromhaven stormy, and Blackmarsh......well damp.... But the people of Tamriel inhabit the world, good and bad.

Thank you for this. Excellent points.

Dositheus wrote: »

Open world PVP in Rift was all that made it decent for me for quite some time. What did that amount to? You had to flag yourself, or engage in pvp and then you could be attacked.

The first day I played 5 years ago I went to one of the dynamic Rift events, only to see a high level (42ish?) player stand in lowbies AoE's in order to get the lowbie flagged, who would then proceed to kill them.

I think that is the kind of stuff that would need to be carefully coded to prevent, especially when you keep in mind that people in this game did not buy the game with the understanding that open world PvP could be a thing. With RIFT you at least knew it was possible when you signed up.

petraeus1 wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NateAssassin wrote: »

Because I want people killing me when afk waiting for a bounty to drop, or when I am trying to make a few gold to repair my armors, and want to get tbagged by every 500 cp player who claims that they rekt me xDDDDDD

What part of "You would be able to opt-out..." is it that makes it so hard to understand ?

Usually for me it's the part where there is no clarification whether any opt-out is going to be total, irrespective of bounty level, or only limited so long as you don't kill NPCs and get a high bounty (in which case there's an enforced choice between having PvP penalties imposed for PvE crimes in PvE areas or being excluded from some of the PvE content).

What I believe to be Lefty's suggestion (and everyone's suggestion on this thread) is that the opt-out system would be a checkbox in the settings. If you opt-out, absolutely nothing changes for you, it stays as it is, regardless of your actions and the level of your bounties : you cannot be attacked by players, only by guards.
Only thing that could possibly change is that you could see players fighting around you, but it would not impact you whatsoever.

That does impact me if I'm doing a quest and I see people PvPing around me. Most quests are not solo phased and PvP would completely break immersion. ESO may not have started out as being a PvE game with PvP in Cyrodiil, but it ended up that way and the reason it is so popular is because of the PvE, not the PvP.

There's no reason to assume normal PvE zones would become a warzone. Mind you, I'm all for a separate zone for Justice PvP, but even in a global implementation, there's a hundred limitations that could be implemented to make sure Justice PvP is a relatively rare phenomenon. As rare as when you currently see a thief get caught by a guard. I think the immersion argument is to be respected, but I don't share it: there are many things in an open world that could break immersion. Heck, seeing 10 people doing the exact same quest as me, killing a boss spawn is immersion breaking. I don't think the occasional fight in which a criminal is caught would have that much impact, if the right limitations would be in place.

Of all the concerns of what PvP could bring to PvE areas, many of which I agree with, this is probably the only one I completely disagree with. Some guy walking around in a wedding dress is FAR more immersion breaking than 2 people duking it out in the street. In fact the two people fighting in the street may even be considered MORE immersive.

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

I want to thank everyone again for voting and for sharing their opinions.

This is pretty much the only topic in ESO that will draw out this much passion from me, so I am happy to see that I was able to accomplish something with this post. I made this post because I wanted to see what everyone thought about this content, and what each person's background is when they share their opinion.

Let's take a look at the poll as it stands right now.



These results meet my expectations. My hypothesis was that most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content. This is evidently true. 62% of voters who oppose this content have never played a game with content like this.

I also expected that most people who have played games with justice system PvP content would be in favor of this update to ESO. This is also true. 78% of voters who have played justice system PvP content in other games are in favor of this update.

Finally, I expected more people to be in favor of this update. Also true. 79% of voters are in favor of justice system PvP content in ESO.


- Lefty Lucy

Your conclusion is off because you are comparing different things. Your factors are those who have played a game with justice PvP, and those who would like to see a system of such in ESO. Most have not on the fomer, and most are in favor on the latter. If you made a 2x2 box of the results, you want to take the pecentage across or down and compare adjacent squares. You are comparing diagonally.

Of those in favor, 82% of those who have never played a game like that are in favor vs 77% of those who have. That's a difference of 5% and it looks like the reverse of your hypothesis is true. (Yes, if that result is significant of course)

driosketch wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

I want to thank everyone again for voting and for sharing their opinions.

This is pretty much the only topic in ESO that will draw out this much passion from me, so I am happy to see that I was able to accomplish something with this post. I made this post because I wanted to see what everyone thought about this content, and what each person's background is when they share their opinion.

Let's take a look at the poll as it stands right now.



These results meet my expectations. My hypothesis was that most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content. This is evidently true. 62% of voters who oppose this content have never played a game with content like this.

I also expected that most people who have played games with justice system PvP content would be in favor of this update to ESO. This is also true. 78% of voters who have played justice system PvP content in other games are in favor of this update.

Finally, I expected more people to be in favor of this update. Also true. 79% of voters are in favor of justice system PvP content in ESO.


- Lefty Lucy

Your conclusion is off because you are comparing different things. Your factors are those who have played a game with justice PvP, and those who would like to see a system of such in ESO. Most have not on the fomer, and most are in favor on the latter. If you made a 2x2 box of the results, you want to take the pecentage across or down and compare adjacent squares. You are comparing diagonally.

Of those in favor, 82% of those who have never played a game like that are in favor vs 77% of those who have. That's a difference of 5% and it looks like the reverse of your hypothesis is true. (Yes, if that result is significant of course)

I understand your conclusions, but data is data. You can interpret it many ways. I don't see any reason why my interpretation of the data is incorrect.

Your conclusions are just as relevant as mine.

Also, my hypothesis was:

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content.

I'm very confused why you think it is invalid to interpret the polls the way I did.

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

I want to thank everyone again for voting and for sharing their opinions.

This is pretty much the only topic in ESO that will draw out this much passion from me, so I am happy to see that I was able to accomplish something with this post. I made this post because I wanted to see what everyone thought about this content, and what each person's background is when they share their opinion.

Let's take a look at the poll as it stands right now.



These results meet my expectations. My hypothesis was that most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content. This is evidently true. 62% of voters who oppose this content have never played a game with content like this.

I also expected that most people who have played games with justice system PvP content would be in favor of this update to ESO. This is also true. 78% of voters who have played justice system PvP content in other games are in favor of this update.

Finally, I expected more people to be in favor of this update. Also true. 79% of voters are in favor of justice system PvP content in ESO.


- Lefty Lucy

Your conclusion is off because you are comparing different things. Your factors are those who have played a game with justice PvP, and those who would like to see a system of such in ESO. Most have not on the fomer, and most are in favor on the latter. If you made a 2x2 box of the results, you want to take the pecentage across or down and compare adjacent squares. You are comparing diagonally.

Of those in favor, 82% of those who have never played a game like that are in favor vs 77% of those who have. That's a difference of 5% and it looks like the reverse of your hypothesis is true. (Yes, if that result is significant of course)

I understand your conclusions, but data is data. You can interpret it many ways. I don't see any reason why my interpretation of the data is incorrect.

Your conclusions are just as relevant as mine.

Also, my hypothesis was:

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content.

I'm very confused why you think it is invalid to interpret the polls the way I did.

Based on some earlier posts about this topic I am pleasantly surprised by the amount of players that actually wanted to have the system in the game... it matters little to me whether they had experience with it previously.

I do believe many of the ones that do not want the feature in the game either do not understand how it would work or just hate pvp period (those ES single player rpg gamers).

Unfortunately I doubt any of this conversation in this thread will persuade ZOS to reconsider their decision, but one can hope that @ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_MattFiror, @ZOS_BrianWheeler or others are looking at the thread.

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

I want to thank everyone again for voting and for sharing their opinions.

This is pretty much the only topic in ESO that will draw out this much passion from me, so I am happy to see that I was able to accomplish something with this post. I made this post because I wanted to see what everyone thought about this content, and what each person's background is when they share their opinion.

Let's take a look at the poll as it stands right now.



These results meet my expectations. My hypothesis was that most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content. This is evidently true. 62% of voters who oppose this content have never played a game with content like this.

I also expected that most people who have played games with justice system PvP content would be in favor of this update to ESO. This is also true. 78% of voters who have played justice system PvP content in other games are in favor of this update.

Finally, I expected more people to be in favor of this update. Also true. 79% of voters are in favor of justice system PvP content in ESO.


- Lefty Lucy

Your conclusion is off because you are comparing different things. Your factors are those who have played a game with justice PvP, and those who would like to see a system of such in ESO. Most have not on the fomer, and most are in favor on the latter. If you made a 2x2 box of the results, you want to take the pecentage across or down and compare adjacent squares. You are comparing diagonally.

Of those in favor, 82% of those who have never played a game like that are in favor vs 77% of those who have. That's a difference of 5% and it looks like the reverse of your hypothesis is true. (Yes, if that result is significant of course)

I understand your conclusions, but data is data. You can interpret it many ways. I don't see any reason why my interpretation of the data is incorrect.

Your conclusions are just as relevant as mine.

Also, my hypothesis was:

Lefty_Lucy wrote: »

most people who oppose the justice system PvP content have never played a game with such content.

I'm very confused why you think it is invalid to interpret the polls the way I did.

Because you have both a higher number of people who never played such a game and a higher number in favor. Comparing like you did skews the results towards the bigger group of respondents. lets look at the converse.

From the image, 98 players have played a game like this, a minority of 32%. If past experience has no impact, we would expect them to be about 32% of those opposed and likewise for in favor. Comparing like this we factor out one of the imbalances by comparing like respondents.

Your hypothesis is they are more in favor. In actuality, they are 38% of those opposed and only 30% of those in favor.

Danikat wrote: »

The most interesting result for me is that the vast majority of those interested enough to vote have no previous experience with a system like this.

Maybe it's simply because ESO is the first MMO for a lot of people here, like me for example. Single player RPG-ers from previous TES games who came and loved the MMO part of it