Why does ZoS support guild bank thievery by their inaction to punish or prevent it?

pssyfngr3 · September 2014

My guild's bank was cleaned out by a guild member who seemed friendly and trustworthy. He/she was in the guild for over two weeks and was active in chat, when he/she received guild bank access. Several days later, the guild member withdrew all over a hundred items and promptly logged off. Some guild members initially reported that guild member's account as hacked, because it did not cross anyone's minds that he/she would deceive us. However, the guild member has not logged in in over week and ESO support has not replied to our reports to confirm his/her account was hacked.

I decided to send another email inquiring about the possibility that the guild member may have stolen the items instead of being hacked. This is the response I received:

Greetings ___,

Guilds and guild banks are player-governed and ruled. As Bethesda does not interfere with the permissions set by the Guild Master, we cannot take responsibility for missing items if a player decides to withdraw them from the guild bank. My apologies that we will not be able to restore the items, but because it is ultimately up to the Guild Master to set the withdrawing permissions for guild members, we do not have any jurisdiction over guild issues such as this. Thank you for understanding.

Warm Regards,
_____
Elder Scrolls Support

Guild masters and officers will never know a person's intentions, despite the time or friendly act a person portrays online. Why didn't ESO implement a guild withdrawal limit to dissuade these situations? Why can't they return the items taken, or punish the offender? Not taking action and allowing the thief to remain unpunished, only encourages their deceptive and terrible behavior. I am disappointed and discouraged to support a game who does not support their community when they are wrongfully deceived.

Heishi · September 2014

In a rare instance, I agree with support. Guilds are player run and player managed. They give a lot of tools to make different levels of permissions. It's up the player to make the judgement calls of who has access to what. This is a commonality in pretty much all mmo's that have a guild bank.

That said, I don't think it's right for a player to do that to a group of people. It's a very d-bag move.

Being able to set a limit would be great, I have seen it done in other (very few) mmo's. But you knew that given the current state of ESO, those tools weren't available and proceeded anyway.

General rule of thumb, if you don't wanna lose it, don't put it in the guild bank.

Voodoo · September 2014

other than setting a limit to improve bank safety you cannot blame zos for others corruption. ZOS is not the all knowing omnipotent lord of all things, blaming them because you got burnt by someone who took advantage of your trust worthiness is not warranted. Good thing this is a video game and there for the repercussions are minor inconvenience of your enjoyment.

..again bank with draw limits should be implemented but other than that being in a guild does require a ounce of trust and this player no doubt will feel the wrath of karma sooner or later, mark my words.

Nox_Aeterna · September 2014

So you gave the keys to your house to a thief , got robbed and now thinks it is the insurance company job to fix everything?

There is only one person to blame for all of this and it is the person who gave that player the right to take things from the guild bank.

PolskiBunny_ESO · September 2014

I get people agreeing that ZoS can't do any action for this, but I do think that in order for ZoS to be able to say it's up to the guild master and stuff, they need to give the ability for the guild masters to have more input besides an on off switch for the bank.

That's been a potential issue since beta (really, a theft did happen in the long term beta and it made a lot if people upset while the same "it's not in zos's control"/"ZoS doesn't give enough controls" thing came up). I hope ZoS makes it more customizable, because it must be hard running a bank to enable sharing and cooperatively and always risking losing everything. Sure that can happen if they implement more specified, but it would happen less so.

Of course, I understand they can't give the items back. But they need to supply the tools to help guilds minimize this issue.

Also, it doesn't help there are rules against sharing names of offenders. I know naming and shaming can lead to bad things, but what if there are people that act active and then disappear under the same name? I don't condone naming and shaming, but it would be nice if for major offenses like theft guilds could respectfully communicate names of more shady individuals. Sadly that would probably not be used in a civil manner.

Nazon_Katts · September 2014

Ah, that one never gets old. Six months in and we still haven't got multiple tabs, different levels of access and withdraw limits. Even in games with all those things, the company in charge would take care of such an issue, because they actually do know that there's a responsibility on policing their in-game population.

In the end, the effort benefits all. The players who know that cheap cheats are dealt with, gaining confidence in the company to provide an even and fair game for all. The company gaining a trusted reputation and thus (keeping) more customers.

But ZOS stays adamant on their stance to do just nothing and let us sort it out ourselves. Brilliant.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · September 2014

Heishi wrote: »

In a rare instance, I agree with support. Guilds are player run and player managed.

Sorry, ZOS can't hide behind that fig leaf as it was their design choice to FORCE players to join guilds in order to take part in the game's economy.

ZOS can't take a 'hands off' attitude given that they created this facile system in the first place.

Gythral · September 2014

Short of exploits there is no reason for ZOS to get involved in guild affairs!
You gave the person access, that was up to you!
You do have tools to limit others withdrawal of items from the guild bank...

Given that accounts are guild members, unlike some other games I could name, if you get burnt here you can 'blacklist' the account not just the 1 character and hope you find out about their others!

There are lots of things that ZOS needs to do better but coddling those that are unwilling to accept their mistakes is not one of them!

Feedback with suggestions of what additional tools you would like to see is the way forward, and learn the hard lessons.

Heishi · September 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

In a rare instance, I agree with support. Guilds are player run and player managed.

Sorry, ZOS can't hide behind that fig leaf as it was their design choice to FORCE players to join guilds in order to take part in the game's economy.

ZOS can't take a 'hands off' attitude given that they created this facile system in the first place.

That was a fair point I hadn't considered. After consideration though I still disagree. They do force players in guilds because of the guilds stores. No one can touch items you have in the guild stores though (unless they pay of course).

So that still leaves us with, we know the limitations of the systems to manage guild ranks. Based on that we can decide whether we want to risk it or not. OP took the risk and got screwed over, it sucks, but it happens and should have been expected as a possibility.

Again, If you don't want to lose it, don't put it in the guild bank. If you want to collaborate with others in say a crafting guild, talk to people. Talking to people helps keep the guild alive, rather than just shoveling everything into the bank and saying if someone needs something it's there.

Chelos · September 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Sorry, ZOS can't hide behind that fig leaf as it was their design choice to FORCE players to join guilds in order to take part in the game's economy.

Sorry but that's plain wrong. No one is forced (not even in capital letters) to do anything in the game.
You can achieve next to everything without a guild.

That said, a more elaborated way of dealing with guild-banking would be highly appreciated. A withdrawl system to allow white/green/.../yellow and gold access would be a cool thing and could reduce some of the bank robbery. There can't be complete security.

Elsonso · September 2014

What this comes down to, from the point of view of ZOS, is whether the guild member violated any of the terms of service that govern the in-game play. At least, that is what it appears to be.

Removing material from a guild bank that the guild member was duly authorized to access does not seem to constitute a violation of the terms of service. The guild member was, in essence, told they could go into the bank and remove any and all contents of the bank, and they did. Everything beyond that is hearsay.

Right or wrong, that is currently the way that the banks are set up and that is the way that they need to be treated until ZOS changes the way the banks work.

Do they need to change the banks? Emphatic yes! The banks are currently very entry level. They are serviceable but there is a lot of room for change. I have posted some suggestions about how to do this, as have others. I am confident that they will eventually change how the guild banks work in some second round of guild changes. I do not expect this to happen any time soon.

Sunrock · September 2014

pssyfngr3 wrote: »

My guild's bank was cleaned out by a guild member who seemed friendly and trustworthy. He/she was in the guild for over two weeks and was active in chat, when he/she received guild bank access. Several days later, the guild member withdrew all over a hundred items and promptly logged off. Some guild members initially reported that guild member's account as hacked, because it did not cross anyone's minds that he/she would deceive us. However, the guild member has not logged in in over week and ESO support has not replied to our reports to confirm his/her account was hacked.

I decided to send another email inquiring about the possibility that the guild member may have stolen the items instead of being hacked. This is the response I received:

Greetings ___,

Guilds and guild banks are player-governed and ruled. As Bethesda does not interfere with the permissions set by the Guild Master, we cannot take responsibility for missing items if a player decides to withdraw them from the guild bank. My apologies that we will not be able to restore the items, but because it is ultimately up to the Guild Master to set the withdrawing permissions for guild members, we do not have any jurisdiction over guild issues such as this. Thank you for understanding.

Warm Regards,
_____
Elder Scrolls Support

Guild masters and officers will never know a person's intentions, despite the time or friendly act a person portrays online. Why didn't ESO implement a guild withdrawal limit to dissuade these situations? Why can't they return the items taken, or punish the offender? Not taking action and allowing the thief to remain unpunished, only encourages their deceptive and terrible behavior. I am disappointed and discouraged to support a game who does not support their community when they are wrongfully deceived.

How can ZOS know you just don't try to duplicate items by coming up with this story? It's the same problem you having.

But I guess you're telling the truth but its still your problem. Make your players ask for items to get withdrawn from the bank instead of giving them access to them.

Ashtaris · September 2014

ZOS cannot enforce human nature. And unfortunately, people can be greedy in-game as well as in real life. So I don't think they can entirely be responsible for others actions. However, they definitely can and should be more proactive in preventing Guild Bank theft, including withdrawal limits and enforcing a no tolerance ban on such actions. Perhaps once people realize that doing something like this could get you banned then they will think twice about doing it.

hiyde · September 2014

Heishi wrote: »

They give a lot of tools to make different levels of permissions.

Are you kidding me? The 'tools' are "ON" or "OFF".

Is it the Guild Management's "fault"? Sure. They flipped the switch "ON".

But this problem would not exist if we had simple things like:

- Multiple Tabs, each with "ON/OFF" switches. (Would be a great use for guild gold to buy more tabs - start us with 5 100 slot tabs)

- Configurable Limits, per rank, on how many items can be withdrawn per day.

- Ability to control if people can even SEE certain tab(s), based on rank.

Because right now? Guild leadership either has to turn access on and pray this doesn't happen, or shut it off and deal with individual requests for items from and bank and all the "Why can't I access the bank?" complaints/mistrust from members.

-H

Elsonso · September 2014

hiyde wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

They give a lot of tools to make different levels of permissions.

Are you kidding me? The 'tools' are "ON" or "OFF".

Is it the Guild Management's "fault"? Sure. They flipped the switch "ON".

But this problem would not exist if we had simple things like:

- Multiple Tabs, each with "ON/OFF" switches. (Would be a great use for guild gold to buy more tabs - start us with 5 100 slot tabs)

- Configurable Limits, per rank, on how many items can be withdrawn per day.

- Ability to control if people can even SEE certain tab(s), based on rank.

Because right now? Guild leadership either has to turn access on and pray this doesn't happen, or shut it off and deal with individual requests for items from and bank and all the "Why can't I access the bank?" complaints/mistrust from members.

-H

Yeah, the game does not do that right now and that is the reality of the situation. If a player is given access to the Guild Bank today, it means that the Guild Master has authorized unlimited access to the Bank.

I expect that this Summit next week will inevitably touch on some of this stuff. Were you invited?

hiyde · September 2014

Lol nope. No idea what the criteria was or how people were selected.

Gillysan · September 2014

Well you know how the system works, so you have to adapt to it. A more fine controlled permissions system would be preferred. I mean, take windows, there are books the size of encyclopedias written just about permissions. So it can get fairly complex. However, a few other games have done this.

rasman · March 2015

We had a guild bank theft tonight from a trusted member. Upon being asked about a ton of epic and rare withdrawls the guy quit the guild and blocked me.

I'm not blaming ZOS, yeah it was our initiative to give this bozo free use of the bank, BUT it would be great (as many others have pointed out) if guild banks had multiple tabs, or sections. That way certain items could be stored with more security. I think most guild leaders want to be able to let members have access rights without losing their shirts when this kind of thing happens.

And no, this guy was not a new recruit - he had been with us for quite some time.

Anyways ZOS please consider adding some extra bank functionality to guilds! More options is never a bad thing.

DeLindsay · March 2015

Voodoo wrote: »

other than setting a limit to improve bank safety you cannot blame zos for others corruption.

Indeed but we can certainly blame ZoS for not installing such a simple measure in game as to limit how many items one Character (Account in ESO) can withdraw from the GB daily. Something that we've been asking them to do since day 1 and they've been nothing but silent on the issue. It's a VERY valid complaint from Players and needs to be addressed.

Moiskormoimi · March 2015

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

So you gave the keys to your house to a thief , got robbed and now thinks it is the insurance company job to fix everything?

There is only one person to blame for all of this and it is the person who gave that player the right to take things from the guild bank.

This right here. If you do not take the time to manage your guild in the way you see fit, you get what you give.

YourNameHere · March 2015

It's hard really.

I'm sure if I had a friend who played with me since Beta, I'd open the bank to them. No one knows what another is thinking.

I would be more upset about being betrayed like that then losing items.

Best bet? Keep it so people can deposit but not withdrawl unless it is for officers. More of a pain and a bit slower, but narrows down who can take things.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · March 2015

DeLindsay wrote: »

Voodoo wrote: »

other than setting a limit to improve bank safety you cannot blame zos for others corruption.

Indeed but we can certainly blame ZoS for not installing such a simple measure in game as to limit how many items one Character (Account in ESO) can withdraw from the GB daily. Something that we've been asking them to do since day 1 and they've been nothing but silent on the issue. It's a VERY valid complaint from Players and needs to be addressed.

Completely agree.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · March 2015

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

So you gave the keys to your house to a thief , got robbed and now thinks it is the insurance company job to fix everything?

There is only one person to blame for all of this and it is the person who gave that player the right to take things from the guild bank.

This right here. If you do not take the time to manage your guild in the way you see fit, you get what you give.

This is the classic blame the victim attitude and as always, it stinks.

The fact is ZOS provide no means for the 'houseowner' to control what visitors do, it's an all-or-nothing situation. Sure, if the guild in ESO had the same layered access controls guilds in most other games do then the key-holder would have some reason to blame themselves, but as I posted months ago, this is totally down to ZOS who created this facile trasding system then provided the victims with no means to protect themselves against ass-hats like those being talked about in here.

Crusix · January 2016

I find it rather insulting to the player base that this topic has been on the forums for over a year and has yet to recieve so much as a word from ZOS. its pretty clear here that they don't give a damn about protecting its players from other players malicious actions.

Seriously, it cant be that difficult to add guild master configurable limitations on withdrawals to the game

CapnPhoton · January 2016

Crusix wrote: »

I find it rather insulting to the player base that this topic has been on the forums for over a year and has yet to recieve so much as a word from ZOS. its pretty clear here that they don't give a damn about protecting its players from other players malicious actions.

Seriously, it cant be that difficult to add guild master configurable limitations on withdrawals to the game

There are other ways that people have suggested for a person to take care and maintain their own house. They are quite good. But require you to actually manage your own guild.

joker0137 · January 2016

Stand and deliver!

Cuyler · January 2016

Heishi wrote: »

They give a lot of tools to make different levels of permissions.

Thanks for the laugh. Your definition of "a lot" is quite remarkable. The permissions for guild banks are:

1. Access
2. No Access

Any player suggesting the current system is adequate is either a thief themselves, or worse...complacent and borderline supportive of thievery. Who knows, maybe this is a new game mechanic to go with the thieves guild and ZOS will start calling it a "feature".

"CapnPhoton wrote: »

There are other ways that people have suggested for a person to take care and maintain their own house. They are quite good. But require you to actually manage your own guild.

Easy to say, please elaborate. I'm sure these will be good...*goes to get popcorn*

this is a necro btw

Tallowby · January 2016

There is a difference in how Guild Banks operate on PC vs Console (xbox)

On PC you can set a member so they can not remove Items from the guild bank BUT THEY CAN LOOK THRU IT! Why is this not the same on console (xbox)?

With this function on PC one that does not have withdrawal access can request the item from an officer without having to open up full access so members can see what is in the bank?

ADD THE ABILITY (or check box) TO ALLOW A CLOSED BANK TO BE VIEWED ON CONSOLE!!!!!!!!!

Cuyler wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

They give a lot of tools to make different levels of permissions.

Thanks for the laugh. Your definition of "a lot" is quite remarkable. The permissions for guild banks are:

1. Access
2. No Access
3. No Access but Viewable <---- ADD ASAP!!!

CapnPhoton · January 2016

Cuyler wrote: »

Heishi wrote: »

They give a lot of tools to make different levels of permissions.

Thanks for the laugh. Your definition of "a lot" is quite remarkable. The permissions for guild banks are:

1. Access
2. No Access

Any player suggesting the current system is adequate is either a thief themselves, or worse...complacent and borderline supportive of thievery. Who knows, maybe this is a new game mechanic to go with the thieves guild and ZOS will start calling it a "feature".

"CapnPhoton wrote: »

There are other ways that people have suggested for a person to take care and maintain their own house. They are quite good. But require you to actually manage your own guild.

Easy to say, please elaborate. I'm sure these will be good...*goes to get popcorn*

this is a necro btw

also easy to search for...

Until enhancements are added someday, there was one particular suggestion about appointing guild officers to give things out when needed and lock up the bank to everyone else. It may seem tedious, but look at the alternative of opening it up to everyone. Someday perhaps rank permissions will be added, but for now you have to do whats necessary.

Arkhaniir · January 2016

lordrichter wrote: »

What this comes down to, from the point of view of ZOS, is whether the guild member violated any of the terms of service that govern the in-game play. At least, that is what it appears to be.

Removing material from a guild bank that the guild member was duly authorized to access does not seem to constitute a violation of the terms of service. The guild member was, in essence, told they could go into the bank and remove any and all contents of the bank, and they did. Everything beyond that is hearsay.

Right or wrong, that is currently the way that the banks are set up and that is the way that they need to be treated until ZOS changes the way the banks work.

Do they need to change the banks? Emphatic yes! The banks are currently very entry level. They are serviceable but there is a lot of room for change. I have posted some suggestions about how to do this, as have others. I am confident that they will eventually change how the guild banks work in some second round of guild changes. I do not expect this to happen any time soon.

Agreed.

He didn't broke any rules or made an illegal move. It was simply a d-bag move so ZoS is not obliged to (And should not, in my opinion) interfere at this point. Except, of course, improving the banking system. I am sorry that your GBank got emptied though. Thankfully I never experienced such an issue.

On the other hand, until ZOS applies some new tools towards the issue, there are ways to avoid such situations by working around the permissions and adding some Human Control to it.
As an example, in one of the guilds I am in, everyone had access to the guild bank BUT not via permissions. Instead people had to ask an Officer for the items they want and we, as the officers, simply jumped into a guild bank, send the requested items and continue whatever we were doing. It requires mutual respect within the guild and some responsibilty for the officers but it works. It is recommended.

ZOS_AlanG · January 2016

While much of the discussion here is fine, the thread is fairly heated. We wanted to take a moment to remind everyone that criticism is perfectly acceptable, but please make sure it is kept both civil and constructive.