Idea to Improve Risk Vs Reward System of Imperial City.

AFrostWolf · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

che.bonsai wrote: »

That sounds good, but we must remember that gankers don't care about only stones, but do it for fun.
The only way to limit PVP (that ridiculous for IC location as it designed as mass PVP-fight-your-way-to-PVE zone) is "flagging" system like at Lineage/WoW etc.
What stops me from MMO part of IC - gankers. But it rather fun when I'm at zerg party myself and SteamRoll all other players

If gankers don't care about the stones, and didn't risk anything then the deaths they inflict lose meaning. In it's current form it's a form of griefing. Hours of hard work lost to someone who doesn't deserve it. In the new system you only lose it to those who do deserve it. If gankers, continue to kill without risking anything, it's just a free teleport back to the bank because we wouldn't lose anything. 80% of 0 is still 0.

Autolycus · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

Helgi_Skotina wrote: »

For me it is not easy in any case - im trying ti kill players, not dumb mobs. Im earning my fun, and i will kill players even if i get 0 AP, 0 XP and 0 TV for it.
OK, any suggestions what a PvP player can risk when ganking?

I don't think there's anything wrong with what you're trying to say here. But if you're only interested in the kill, and not what the player is carrying, then there isn't really anything wrong with you gaining nothing from the kill, right?

With the suggestion that the OP made, you can just carry 0 stones on you when you gank people. You still earn your kill, and they keep their stones, which is what they were there for to begin with. With this suggestion, I think more PvE players would be willing to run around the IC sewers anyway, and you'd have more people to gank.

I think overall it's a sound, fair suggestion. With the availability of the same materials in Wrothgar, it's not like running around IC is the only way to get telvar stones. But IC is by far quicker and more efficient, except for getting ganked in the sewers. I'm not saying it's a PvE zone, because it's not. I think we can all agree that it's a hybrid between PvP and PvE (ideally). The only impact that this suggestion has is on the PvP player who is actually doing it for the stones, which I think is pretty rare (because like you said, it's not about the stones usually, it's about getting the player kill).

Volkodav · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

People keep forgetting that IC was advertised as being for both PvP ANS PvE,so it would bew nice to be able to have time to actually get into it without dying right away.I have a thought though.Gather stones with one eye open for gankers.When you think one is coming,just TP out.Then return when you get them out of your inventory.

kojou · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

I like the idea, and think this would be a much better approach since one you killed a ganker and took his stones he would have to collect more before he could come after you again with any expectation of reward. It would make losing the fight hurt more.

The bigger issue is on the reward side though. Unless ZOS adds better things to buy with TV stones no one is going to care how many they have.

Dubhliam · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

Digerati wrote: »

How about a fractional reserve system so that when you kill someone they can drop up to 120% of your stones, or 80% of theirs (whichever is lower)?

Both this suggestion and the OPs suggestions are very valid and much needed in IC.

I don't see a reason NOT to implement it.

Chelos · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

I really like the idea, I have avoided IC because of the ganking.
I mean, they're sorry souls who can't stand up in a real fight and I pity them but nontheless they're a real annoiance and this style of play should not be rewarded.

Curragraigue · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

I suggested the exact same thing back in early Oct so yeah I agree.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/221833/risk-vs-reward-ic#latest

DRXHarbinger · December 2015

It should just never have been 80% it's way to high. 30% I wouldn't really care. It would make you go back to the bank and start again. Loosing something like 4k stones and going home with a few hundred is painful. Don't get me wrong I love to gank and fry grinders because it's easier and quicker but I'd still do it if the loot was lower as there would probably be more of them to rob and they'd have more stones and less to worry about and so would apex predators like me lol.

Vangy · December 2015

No, Sounds Bad

The thing is... Most of the time Farmers tend to be in groups of 5+. Gankers like myself are almost always alone or in pairs. So off the bat we are up agaisnt unfavourable odds. So if I gank and suicide I don't earn any stones either cos I take let's say 1000 stones from one guy and I lose 800 by dying to his friends. And that's not counting the 15 minutes I spent looking for you while sneaking around in enemy territory. If I get killed by one of your friends after taking said stones I could have spent that 20 minutes just farming and made a lot more. So it's not all that easy to gank unless of course u find someone farming alone and you get the jump on them. If you're alone farming you are either very good at defending yourself, or you're food. It is a war zone. No reason to go about Rambo-ing all alone unless of course you are Rambo. 80% losses apply to both ganker and ganked. Farm with a couple of competent friends and problem solved. No point in ganking with huge numbers cos we don't earn much for our time anyway.

TLDR: ganking isn't as easy as u think it is. Non-gankers should try it. Like really almost 90% of the time your up against odds of 1:3 with the rare exceptions of Super confident people farming all alone in a damned war zone and bear in mind some of them might be experienced pvpers.

AFrostWolf · December 2015

Yes, Sounds Good

Vangy wrote: »

The thing is... Most of the time Farmers tend to be in groups of 5+. Gankers like myself are almost always alone or in pairs. So off the bat we are up agaisnt unfavourable odds. So if I gank and suicide I don't earn any stones either cos I take let's say 1000 stones from one guy and I lose 800 by dying to his friends. And that's not counting the 15 minutes I spent looking for you while sneaking around in enemy territory. If I get killed by one of your friends after taking said stones I could have spent that 20 minutes just farming and made a lot more. So it's not all that easy to gank unless of course u find someone farming alone and you get the jump on them. If you're alone farming you are either very good at defending yourself, or you're food. It is a war zone. No reason to go about Rambo-ing all alone unless of course you are Rambo. 80% losses apply to both ganker and ganked. Farm with a couple of competent friends and problem solved. No point in ganking with huge numbers cos we don't earn much for our time anyway.

TLDR: ganking isn't as easy as u think it is. Non-gankers should try it. Like really almost 90% of the time your up against odds of 1:3 with the rare exceptions of Super confident people farming all alone in a damned war zone and bear in mind some of them might be experienced pvpers.

Going to have to disagree with you on this. It's not hard to gank. All you have to do is take ZERO stones with you. Take a ladder and go into enemy territory and kill them. If it doesn't work out and you die then no harm no foul. There is no penalty for PvP deaths. If you kill someone and don't get away, then as hard core PVPERS like to throw around "git gud". If you manage to kill someone take there stuff an escape then congratz you win.

Now let's talk about population, which is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what size group people run. You can Gank in any size group you want, Solo/Duo/Trio/Zerg. The outcome is the same. You have ZERO stones of your own being put on the line. You get rewarded for nothing and that is unfair at it's core.

You can also farm in any size group as well. Solo/Duo/Trio/Zerg. You are also penalized with reduced rewards that are split between group members. The only risk you take as a ganker is in how difficult the fight is, which is a tactical problem not one of fairness.

You're trying to make it seem like it's hard to move around the map. It's actually very stupidly easy. The ladder system and the respawn system. The ladder system lets you get around the map stupid fast. It's so easy to get into the "Home" area of an enemy's base by using the ladders and sewer grates. Above ground, you can harass others by spawning again and again and again till you win or they get annoyed and leave.

Everything you mention is tactical and not about fairness, which this topic is about. How you use your time as a ganker is a personal choice much like that of a farmer. The change doesn't stop ganking from happening. It stops trolling and griefing. We already know that ganking is a tactical and valid strategy from Cyrodiil. Imperial City ganking is different however. It's much more tactical because there is actually risk and reward involved. A farmer makes the choice to risk the stones being carried on them every second that they aren't inside a non PvP safe area. How many of their own stones does a ganker risk? (Hint: ZERO). I absolutely believe that ganking should be rewarding which is why I'm not trying to get the 80% penalty removed. Let me remind you that 80% of 0 is still 0. If you're a ganker with nothing on you, you shouldn't expect to be rewarded. You still get the kill and the AP as per normal, but you shouldn't get anything else unless you risk something of equal value.

Vangy · December 2015

No, Sounds Bad

AFrostWolf wrote: »

Vangy wrote: »

The thing is... Most of the time Farmers tend to be in groups of 5+. Gankers like myself are almost always alone or in pairs. So off the bat we are up agaisnt unfavourable odds. So if I gank and suicide I don't earn any stones either cos I take let's say 1000 stones from one guy and I lose 800 by dying to his friends. And that's not counting the 15 minutes I spent looking for you while sneaking around in enemy territory. If I get killed by one of your friends after taking said stones I could have spent that 20 minutes just farming and made a lot more. So it's not all that easy to gank unless of course u find someone farming alone and you get the jump on them. If you're alone farming you are either very good at defending yourself, or you're food. It is a war zone. No reason to go about Rambo-ing all alone unless of course you are Rambo. 80% losses apply to both ganker and ganked. Farm with a couple of competent friends and problem solved. No point in ganking with huge numbers cos we don't earn much for our time anyway.

TLDR: ganking isn't as easy as u think it is. Non-gankers should try it. Like really almost 90% of the time your up against odds of 1:3 with the rare exceptions of Super confident people farming all alone in a damned war zone and bear in mind some of them might be experienced pvpers.

Going to have to disagree with you on this. It's not hard to gank. All you have to do is take ZERO stones with you. Take a ladder and go into enemy territory and kill them. If it doesn't work out and you die then no harm no foul. There is no penalty for PvP deaths. If you kill someone and don't get away, then as hard core PVPERS like to throw around "git gud". If you manage to kill someone take there stuff an escape then congratz you win.

Now let's talk about population, which is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what size group people run. You can Gank in any size group you want, Solo/Duo/Trio/Zerg. The outcome is the same. You have ZERO stones of your own being put on the line. You get rewarded for nothing and that is unfair at it's core.

You can also farm in any size group as well. Solo/Duo/Trio/Zerg. You are also penalized with reduced rewards that are split between group members. The only risk you take as a ganker is in how difficult the fight is, which is a tactical problem not one of fairness.

You're trying to make it seem like it's hard to move around the map. It's actually very stupidly easy. The ladder system and the respawn system. The ladder system lets you get around the map stupid fast. It's so easy to get into the "Home" area of an enemy's base by using the ladders and sewer grates. Above ground, you can harass others by spawning again and again and again till you win or they get annoyed and leave.

Everything you mention is tactical and not about fairness, which this topic is about. How you use your time as a ganker is a personal choice much like that of a farmer. The change doesn't stop ganking from happening. It stops trolling and griefing. We already know that ganking is a tactical and valid strategy from Cyrodiil. Imperial City ganking is different however. It's much more tactical because there is actually risk and reward involved. A farmer makes the choice to risk the stones being carried on them every second that they aren't inside a non PvP safe area. How many of their own stones does a ganker risk? (Hint: ZERO). I absolutely believe that ganking should be rewarding which is why I'm not trying to get the 80% penalty removed. Let me remind you that 80% of 0 is still 0. If you're a ganker with nothing on you, you shouldn't expect to be rewarded. You still get the kill and the AP as per normal, but you shouldn't get anything else unless you risk something of equal value.

Again this only applies to the rare breed of ganker that kills 1 person gathers 500 stones and then runs to suicide..... If you don't wanna get ganked there are tons of ways to make it so. Ic is small and clustered with narrow passages. Caltrops or mines along entrances/ doors where ur farming takes anyone out of stealth. Mageligt takes people out of stealth and prevents stealth damage. Run in a small group that has scouts. I do my fair share of farming too. I get ganked too. I also gank. I kill gankers far more often then they kill me. At this point we'r going to have to agree to disagree.