Manoekin wrote: »

Sticky just got removed from the thread. RIP.

Long live AOE Caps!

Sureshawt wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

andypappb16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.

@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...

Wrobel wrote in this thread:

We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.

Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.

On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.

The implication is that they recognize PBAoE is already to strong and encourages stacking/blobbing. Thus they would not make it stronger by raising the caps. They have other solutions in mind for blob/stack busting that do not involve raising AoE caps.

Thankfully we have objective Devs looking out the best interests of the game for everyone versus some players that want to further increase their ability to mindless spam PBAoE and mow down large groups of players.

What you and many others don't understand (including @Wrobel ) is that the removal of dmg AoE caps will incentivize people to spread out. Right now a group of 24 is better of to stack so they can benefit from 37.5% damages reduction (its more mitigation than any ultimate of the game) with AoE smart heals (the 6 taking 100% damages will always be healed first). Now if you remove dmg AoE caps, those groups will want to spread out a bit more, to balance the damage increase. Thus, single target will become more important because an AoE wont hit more than 6 people as often as now. With a removal of AoE caps, you will most likely see AoE less used because people wont stack as much as now, and an AoE is not worth using if it hits less than 4 people.
I will repeat once again, dmg AoE doesnt encourage stacking alone, dmg AoE are meant to do the contrary (look at daoc) but the virtual 37.5% mitigation does. Simply because it makes AoE heals stronger than AoE damages.

I've experienced games where PBAoE without caps has dominated PvP play. Everyone running around in bomb groups mindlessly spamming uncapped AoE ...rinse ....repeat...boring.

Fortunately we dont have this today!

The only true fun fights I have in this game right now are in the open field where AoE button mash groups can be mostly avoided. Inside enclosed areas well that's where the button mashing AoE lagfest hell starts.

Which is why I support the efforts of ZoS to tone down PBAoE mechanics as it is too strong already and not make it worse by simply removing the caps. I know you would like to just run around and kill even larger numbers of players faster with mindless AoE button mashing but thankfully it isn't going to happen.

You missed his point, or you're just avoiding it.

You're trying to say uncapping AOE will lead to something. The reality is though, that "something" is already here, and it's here specifically because of AOE caps. I don't understand how people making this argument figured out how to use these forums in the first place. It's basic common sense.

I guess common sense isn't so common. I wanna fix the underlying problem of AoE being the dominant tactic that encourages balling up as does ZoS.

I get that it is already here (I stated that already and so does ZoS). I see it used extensively in any enclosed area or cap areas and sometimes even in the open field.

This idea though that removing AoE caps will make ball groups spread out is pure nonsense because in enclosed areas you can't spread out unlike the open field. Also taking objectives require you to ball up inside the ring to take it.

Simply removing the AoE caps without changing the underlying mechanics first will just result in more of the same except death will come faster for more players.

Is this what you consider compelling game play? Because running around in ball groups spamming AoEs hoping my groups AoEs kill theirs first is not what i consider fun. AoE should be useful when used tactically in certain situations but NOT spammed in every encounter until the cows come home (especially when taking objectives).

IF the underlying mechanics (to either AoE itself or how objectives are captured) are changed AND working as intended then we can discuss removing AoE caps.

I've been down this road before in other games and you don't have to be a genius to figure out how it will end if you simply remove AoE caps without fixing the underlying issues that cause a ball up in the first place.

People aren't balling up because AOE is too strong. If AOE was too strong, people wouldn't ball up because they'd die easily. People ball up because it's the best way to survive due to game mechanics favoring that type of behavior. ZOS wants to encourage people to spread out, but everything they've done and that I've heard in this thread tells me they want the exact opposite.

The underlying issue is AOE caps and don't forget that. That's the main issue at the heart of this discussion. When I come up on some lazy group just standing around afk and we drop a few ultimates and AOE them, and only half of the group dies while the other half lives solely due to RNG factors you have a problem. That's when you're not promoting tactical gameplay. I don't go, "oh man I wish my volley hit harder.. they really need to buff ranged AOE's", or "wow why couldn't we single target that afk group down fast enough they weren't even paying attention". If you want people to spread out more than they do now and encourage smart play there's really only one way to do it. Anything else is just dodging the issue trying to keep it together with bandaids here and there.

You say it will bring death faster and for more players. I say bring it on. People should die faster if they play stupid. People that continue playing in the same fashion will have a hard time. Good luck to them. I remember the days when you used to have to move out of AOE's, and now people just stack up and face tank them. ZOS has moved the game in a direction where we can't go back to that without removing AOE caps. They've shown by increasing the cap that they should be open to this idea. The only other option would be to rebalance the game with softcaps, but that's not happening because of the champion system.

People don't ball up for the single reason of reducing damage and you must know that.

People ball up to reduce damage with the AoE cap but they also do so for the all these reasons as well:

-People ball up to maximize damage/kills with AoE
-People ball up to get AoE purges/heals/shields
-Objective capturing requires players to ball up inside a ring

If you simply raise AoE caps without addressing ALL theses underlying issues that encourage balling up then people will still ball up not because of stupid game play but because the mechanics encourage and in some cases dictate it.

There are plenty of ways to try to address these issues before making an already strong mechanic even stronger particularly one that is already a major contributor in the first place.

So how exactly does removal of AoE caps make them stronger for the stacked up group? Only in the case their enemy does the same. And you don't want to argue now the fight should take longer rather than shorter when both raids make themselves as vulnerable as possible, do you?
In every other scenario, AoE caps are only helping the group that already is spamming PBAoE. Maybe it's a good thing to buff ranged AoEs for example, but it makes little sense doing it before removing the AoE caps. Because that has to happen anyway.

Removing AoE caps makes all AoE mechanics stronger in general. I'm not sure how anyone could even fathom that it wouldn't. I never said it would make them stronger for the stacked group per say. Now obviously more players spamming AoE equals more overall damage output but that's a result of multiplicative math.

What you all seem to gloss over every time is the fact that removing the AoE cap will not force people to spread out because they will still ball up for these reasons which raising the cap does not resolve.

-People ball up to maximize damage/kills with AoE
-People ball up to get AoE purges/heals/shields
-Objective capturing requires players to ball up inside a ring


I mean is the issue "We wan't to be able to do damage to more people with AoE spam'
or
is the issue 'We want to encourage players to spread out and not ball up'

I'm starting to sense that people in favor of raising AoE caps are really not interested in resolving the balling up issue but instead just want mash a single button to kill large numbers of players faster to feed their online egos.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Reading back some pages I think unpurgeable snare from siege is the best anti-zerg tool.

If a large group is hit with a snare that slows them it allows other (defending) players to set up siege and hit the slow moving group.

Removing the AOE cap for siege would be helpful as well.

Cinbri wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Reading back some pages I think unpurgeable snare from siege is the best anti-zerg tool.

If a large group is hit with a snare that slows them it allows other (defending) players to set up siege and hit the slow moving group.

Removing the AOE cap for siege would be helpful as well.

There is no AoE cap on siege.

Proof or bust

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

For clarification, Siege weapons have no cap.

It is finally here, and the opening post leads me to believe were talking about issues around large scale PvP instead of AOE caps - so Im going to jump right in on this.

Wrobel wrote: »

Healing abilities currently cap at 6 targets, where damage can hit up to 60 targets (100% to the first 6, 50% to the next 24, and 25% to the last 30).

Ive heard this idea dropped in one of our We Are ESO podcasts by you before Wrobel and Id like to strike at it in more detail. If healing and damage mechanics were the same (picking random targets) this issue with AOE caps wouldnt be as bad as they are. But because of smart healing (which I dont expect you to remove or change due to it being core to your game since its inception) is what makes the damage get the short end of the stick.


If youre hitting 16 people, and 6 for full at a time, youre picking 6 different targets each time. If youre hitting 24, or 30 players, the statistical chance you hit the target that you wanted to hit, who you previously put the most damage on, keeps getting worse and worse. Ultimately, its extremely unlikely to hit the target you want and burst that guy down. Instead, you have to throw out overwhelming amounts of damage and actually out damage their healing by a large margin in a short span of time (something not possible when significantly outnumbered. This becomes impossible when you factor in templar ult for reduction but more importantly: barrier.

Now you mentioned barrier, which is great. This ability absolutely and completely counters a burst from realistically happening. It also is compounded by the fact that you cant even crit shields (an issue shared with small scale magicka sorcs - but to stay on course here) the amount of uncrittable damage 1 barrier provides a full group is absolutely ridiculous.

All in all, AOE caps creates a situation that encourages you to bring numbers SIMPLY BECAUSE THE MORE YOU HAVE, THE MORE CHANCE YOULL TAKE 50% DAMAGE. It creates quantity over quality. Quantity already provides you the advantage of having more tools and bodies at your disposal.

I really wont be satisfied with anything short of full removal of AOE caps - because if you just raise the bar up, you have the same issue at a larger scale and youre not fixing the problem, youre promoting a worse one. To have more people stack more people.


Whoever takes the most damage, will get all of the heals, because smart healing targets whoever is lowest. Damage is randomly picking targets. Because of this design - you need to remove AOE caps.

Wrobel wrote: »

We want AoE abilities to be useful in PvP. That being said, we don’t want them to be the end all be all - single target abilities should also be useful.

Single target abilities will still be useful - 100%. In fact, I cant even AOE groups if theyre too big, the only viable option is to use single target to hope to burst through specific people. AOE is good, but its only as good as the numbers you have AOEing and the difference between what youre AOEing against. Again, the meta now because of the 50% damage nerf this patch is all about numbers. 50% less damage, then 50% from AOE caps if youre not the unlucky 6.

With that said - you should be discouraging people from balling up all of the time. THERE IS NO THREAT, NO RISK, NO REASON NOT TO. Fixing det is a good first step, but you shouldnt put 1 skill in the game that is the end all be all of countering these ball groups. The game design IS NOT GOOD to encourage this style of play. THERE MUST BE RISK INVOLVED, OR EVERYONE WILL DO IT. This is what Cyrodiil has become, because that is what has been promoted by all of these changes.

When players are forced to split and scatter to avoid the damage or ults of another group trying to strike at them while theyre all grouped, THAT is when you would switch to single target. That is how you bring single target combat back into this equation. But a lot of these groups, they dont even use single target at all. Because you dont give them a reason to. They have gap closers, survivals, buffs/utility, and AOE. They will literally gap closer and use steel tornado because it may be there best skill to damage with. If you created a reason for people that they HAD TO SCATTER they would switch to their single target, and back to AOE when they have the ability to counter in the same fashion.

This style of PvP existed more before, it exists less today.

Wrobel wrote: »

The intention of the caps and falloff is that AoE damage will be able to outpace healing in large group battles, but not dominate it.

This plays into the first part but I want to come back to it again. A large group may take 500k damage, but a barrier will eat up most of that (this is post mitigation damage too, so its being spread pretty slowly) - and technically none of those people could have dropped below 10k hp despite receiving an equal amount of healing, because the smart healing is going to prioritize those who need it, while the damage is being spread all over the place. This system is so screwed up - Im not even sure how it can be tolerated as a thing for mass PvP.

It sends a clear message to me. You want the game to be more casual friendly and youre giving people a cushion so they dont have to play as well, or try as much. You dont want them to die easily and become discouraged. The reality is, youve lost just as much playerbase creating a ball group meta that has smothered your servers performance, its backfired in a gruesome way.

Additionally, this patch, more than any other, should allow players to take on AOE damage with the damage reduction, whereas in 1.6, it was easier to burst down with AOE. I get this game is for everyone, and I dont want to discourage people from playing it by making it too hard. But ultimately you have great players making great ball groups too that will crush these more casual players getting into larger groups if you actually did remove AOE caps just as well.

Removing AOE caps needs to be done because the game in its current state is 100% about quantity over quality. It has never before been as much about it as it is now, and if you dont take radical action to change this, you will lose what remains of players that want to create a great PvP environment. Theres a lot of alternatives around the corner - not to derail/threaten this offtopic, but its a reality. You need change quickly, and if you dont, a lot of the players who have stuck around through a lot of crap, are out once they find that magic we felt in earlier days of Cyro somewhere else.

Wrobel wrote: »

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

We use this on We are ESO podcasts, and its true - but I dont even know why you need to say this. Its like a reassurance to ball groups and zergs that you arent willing to make changes to bring things where they need to be. Which is GIVING EVERYONE A FAIR SHOT IN A FIGHT



Changes that should be made:

Immediate changes:

Step 1) Remove AOE caps [No discussion needed] (Wrobel Team)
Step 2) Change Barrier & Purge [Discussion needed: How do you do this? If you cast 1 barrier in a 24 man group and it hits 12, will a 2nd one hit the 12 who didnt get it? This will change things where groups simply run 2 barriers at a time. Will it randomly pick targets? This changes the design of it, and not necessarily in a bad way, but will alter how its functionally used by ball groups today. As far as purge is concerned, this will still be used to the effect it is today, even if you limited targets down to 4, they would assign 3-6 people that can purge. Consider how strong purge is and how it effects other things, like siege, otherwise changes here will be void.] (Wrobel Team)
Step 3) Make AP gains distributed equally across the board, no bonus for large groups. [No discussion needed] (Wheeler Team)
Step 4) Rework siege [Discussion needed - not testing] (Wheeler Team)


Post AOE caps:

Step 5) Evaluate Removal of AOE Caps; Discuss Dynamic Ult Gen [Discussion needed post AOE cap removal - NEW ult gen system, not like the old one, but not static] (Wrobel Team)

Going to stop there for now - because the list goes beyond mechanic changes at that point to design changes. The rest is design changes that can encourage people to be spread out, have other objectives and new things to do. Youve probably heard these ideas on the We Are ESO podcast if youve watched them. EI: City objectives and IC changes. These are mid/long term goals. The above is your short term IMMEDIATE goals that need to come in now.

kaithuzar wrote: »

My vote is to remove AOE's from the game entirely.

Wrobel wrote: »

Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:

• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Hey everyone calm down about wrobell. Let the man work. Let him take the feedback and see what the team comes up with before you start bashing him

CP5 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Hey everyone calm down about wrobell. Let the man work. Let him take the feedback and see what the team comes up with before you start bashing him

Hate to say this, but it has been so long, the time of not speaking our minds is way behind us. He has had months, this is where he said there would be a 'discussion' and this is what we've gotten.

wigglesgaming26 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Hey everyone calm down about wrobell. Let the man work. Let him take the feedback and see what the team comes up with before you start bashing him

Hate to say this, but it has been so long, the time of not speaking our minds is way behind us. He has had months, this is where he said there would be a 'discussion' and this is what we've gotten.

Ya but read the opening post again. Thus discussion is supposed to be about situation and circumstances where 0layers have had trouble fighting large groups the abilities being used and the problems encountered. He was simply looking for detailed information about the problems players have had based on particular circumstances. Not a discussion on whether aoe caps should be removed. Many people just started talking about aoe caps in general rather than give feedback on particular encounters which is what was asked for. So by changing the disccussing to whether or not caps should be removed changed the originalname discussion that was asked for.

Aoe caps themselves have been the problem or at least the root of the problem we have been encountering