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AoE Caps Discussion
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Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭"We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game."
Oh great, another nerf for Stamina based builds! Haven't you kicked us in the balls enough lately with the changes you did with Siphoning Strikes?0 -
"We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game."
Oh great, another nerf for Stamina based builds! Haven't you kicked us in the balls enough lately with the changes you did with Siphoning Strikes?
That only affected nightblades not all stamina based builds. And it definitely needs a nerf3 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wigglesgaming26 wrote: »"We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game."
Oh great, another nerf for Stamina based builds! Haven't you kicked us in the balls enough lately with the changes you did with Siphoning Strikes?
That only affected nightblades not all stamina based builds. And it definitely needs a nerf
And that's usually your and ZOS's answer to class balance and counters, nerf every other class :P
0 -
wigglesgaming26 wrote: »"We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game."
Oh great, another nerf for Stamina based builds! Haven't you kicked us in the balls enough lately with the changes you did with Siphoning Strikes?
That only affected nightblades not all stamina based builds. And it definitely needs a nerf
And that's usually your and ZOS's answer to class balance and counters, nerf every other class :P
So nerfing a skill that does close to the damage of a single target skill if not more and is also an execute is balanced? Where's the magicka version of that? You make it sounds like all you do is spin to win and now that they want to nerf it you're worried that you need some other abilities in your rotation
1 -
Ashtaris✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭wigglesgaming26 wrote: »wigglesgaming26 wrote: »"We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game."
Oh great, another nerf for Stamina based builds! Haven't you kicked us in the balls enough lately with the changes you did with Siphoning Strikes?
That only affected nightblades not all stamina based builds. And it definitely needs a nerf
And that's usually your and ZOS's answer to class balance and counters, nerf every other class :P
So nerfing a skill that does close to the damage of a single target skill if not more and is also an execute is balanced? Where's the magicka version of that? You make it sounds like all you do is spin to win and now that they want to nerf it you're worried that you need some other abilities in your rotation
lol - Don't tell me, coming from a shield stacking, Crystal Frag spamming Sorc?
0 -
wigglesgaming26 wrote: »wigglesgaming26 wrote: »"We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game."
Oh great, another nerf for Stamina based builds! Haven't you kicked us in the balls enough lately with the changes you did with Siphoning Strikes?
That only affected nightblades not all stamina based builds. And it definitely needs a nerf
And that's usually your and ZOS's answer to class balance and counters, nerf every other class :P
So nerfing a skill that does close to the damage of a single target skill if not more and is also an execute is balanced? Where's the magicka version of that? You make it sounds like all you do is spin to win and now that they want to nerf it you're worried that you need some other abilities in your rotation
lol - Don't tell me, coming from a shield stacking, Crystal Frag spamming Sorc?
Lol nah you got it all wrong0 -
Sureshawt✭✭✭✭
Only because of the AoE mechanic. Remove it from PvP except for siege and things would improve greatly on all fronts including performance.WalkingLegacy wrote: »Only because of the AoE mechanic. Remove it from PvP except for siege and things would improve greatly on all fronts including performance during massive battles.
Organized groups calling targets and focusing fire on called targets as well as tactical maneuvers will allow outnumbered groups to have a chance. Skill and tactics actually come into play versus mindless AoE spamming.
Remove AoE and a looooot of people would quit the game. So, no thank you.
Leave the game? That's silly.
Combat is centered around AoE zerging. This needs to be rebalanced so that AoE is situational, not mindless throwing it out there spamming.
I agree as I have said in my earlier posts. Siege should only be the main source of mass AoE in Cyrodil.
This ^
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babanovac✭✭✭A few days ago i saw on a death recap that i got hit for 5k by steel tornado. I'm using 5 heavy armour pieces and i had volatile armor up. My flame lash doesn't hit that hard, and it's not an AoE skill with huge radius like steel tornado.
I just logged off in disgust, and doubt i'll log back in anytime soon.3 -
PainfulFAFA✭✭✭✭✭
✭A few days ago i saw on a death recap that i got hit for 5k by steel tornado. I'm using 5 heavy armour pieces and i had volatile armor up. My flame lash doesn't hit that hard, and it's not an AoE skill with huge radius like steel tornado.
I just logged off in disgust, and doubt i'll log back in anytime soon.
That must've been the steelnado's execute damage that hit you that hard.
But don't worry, you can easily reduce all that damage by standing next to 20 people and nothing else because zos logic!7 -
Destyran✭✭✭✭✭Just sayin if 20 nb can tele strike me at same time i should be avle to hit 20 people with whirl wind0 -
CtrlAltDlt✭✭✭PC NA - jeazzy
stamblade outnumbered pvp vol 1. youtu.be/h1ONYfpAJJ8
Stamblade outbumbered pvp vol 2. No cheese youtu.be/rN4_aRVMvWw1 -
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prootch✭✭✭@Erondil
Crazy, but it seems some nb like to take down isolated targets on horses but they don't like to get hunted in return...
and yeah yeah sure... we play everynight without deto and tornadoe and then we have that magical x2 "we are 40" button: each time we wipe a loltornadoe warband, it gets magically "outnumbered". Rofl. Of course most of them would not care to admit their deto+tornadoe uber lagsh.it did not win the day. Again and again.Without deto and steel tornado, ...
[snip]
[edited for baiting]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 1:21PM0 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Erondil
Crazy, but it seems some nb like to take down isolated targets on horses but they don't like to get hunted in return...Without deto and steel tornado, but overnumbered, well played.
yeah yeah sure... we play everynight without deto and tornadoe and then we have that magical x2 button: each time we wipe a loltornadoe warband, it gets magically "outnumbered". Rofl. Of course most of them would care to admit their deto+tornadoe uber lagsh.it did not win the day. Again.
[snip]
Last time I saw you using 4+ultimates for me I was on my sorc and you werent riding but anyway, its not very relevant. Also I dont see where I said I dont like to be hunted down by a whole group, actually I love it because it makes me feel important, and I always have a good laugh when I see an organized group using ultimates for one guy and yet not able to insta kill him.
If you think it was aimed to you personnally, then you know yourself you're guilty.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 1:22PM~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel7 -
prootch✭✭✭Special treatment probably, feel important and enjoy.
I personally don't ask for ultis of other players in our group so...
You are definitly a good player so no wonder you get targeted... just dont get heated up
Edited by prootch on December 16, 2015 2:44PM0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭While I think that the idea of removal AoE Caps could fundamentally help the small group vs large group dynamic, AoE spam in general contributes to the serious lag problems defining cyrodiil and ultimately decisions reforcing offensive AoE blob tactics are a step in the wrong direction in terms of latency.
Of course this leads to the assumption then that focused single target attacks would dominate blob combat, leading to group focus fire tactics, however I do not think this is a bad thing. The present strategy does not require dps, tanks, or healers to maintain any kind of formation beyond stacking on crown.
And there in lies the true problem from AoE. It negates any need for the physical organization of players within a combat area because it simply hits all the players. With single target attacks, if I jump in front of a player, it is likely I will absorb those single target attacks, or if I cover behind a player I will avoid them. AoEs simply bypass this element of combat entirely, simplifying it into a dull who bombs who the hardest.
Now I know it is rediculous to suggest the removal of AoE attacks since hypothetically smaller group AoE can be used as a means to defeat larger groups - but what if AoE abilities were designed with that scenario specifically in mind, instead of being a general tool used by small group and zerg alike.
Lastly, tied to the idea of physical location being a significant factor in single target combat, where is the role of tanking in PvP? In small group combat where AoE stacking is not dominant, attracting damage as a tank in pvp can play a very critical role. Often players will focus the tank, providing cover for squishier team mates. But again, AoE simply bypasses this element if combat. The closest utility I have seen available for AoE tanking is Guard and sets which transfer damage to the player, but because of the extreme amounts of damage and high cost of guard, it's really just a suicide button in pvp. I could see guard maybe being useful if it consumed ultimate while taking damage while it was active and/or allowed free resurrection if the player dies while it is active.
Anyway, while I realize some of these ideas are a little off the topic of AoE Caps, I think that physical location and the role of tanking in PvP are something to consider in rebalancing how AoE functions in PvP.
Edit; @FENGRUSH I just got through the latest We Are ESO and I really think you nailed it with regard to the need for breaking up the zerg to reduce latency. However, with regard to the way the server functions and how the users eso client interacts with the server in ballgroup situations, removing AoE Caps will only have a minor improvement in that it will allow those groups to be dispersed more quickly. The greater issue at hand is that AoEs themselves when stacked in a concentrated manner put significantly more stress on the server because they are calculating for multiple targets and/or for no targets hit. My hope in tagging you in this post was that you might consider the alternative directions I discussed earlier in this post about the role of tanking in group PvP, single target dynamics, and how AoEs bypass these factors simplifying combat at same time as increasing latency.
Edit edit; Also if you do read this, I think you, King Richard, Lefty Lucy, and Sypher are doing a great service for the community by trying to draw attention the voice of the community. It is very respectable and commendable and I wish you all success with it.
Edit edit edit; Also, here is a separate link to an alternative idea for reducing player concentrations on the server and enhancing cyrodiil dynamics: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236615/a-solution-for-lag-zergs-solo-and-small-group-play-in-cyrodiil#latestEdited by Cathexis on December 17, 2015 9:56PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.1 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I am not sad only coz templar dps is trash anyway.Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
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Birdovic✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
Edited by Birdovic on December 17, 2015 11:59AMAttempt and Thoughts to Overhaul Scaling, Attribute System and Enchantments
Improving the Sorcerer class: Ideas
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of Combat to feel awesome"0 -
Dakrana_Thrazvoth✭✭✭✭@Erondil
Crazy, but it seems some nb like to take down isolated targets on horses but they don't like to get hunted in return...
and yeah yeah sure... we play everynight without deto and tornadoe and then we have that magical x2 "we are 40" button: each time we wipe a loltornadoe warband, it gets magically "outnumbered". Rofl. Of course most of them would not care to admit their deto+tornadoe uber lagsh.it did not win the day. Again and again.Without deto and steel tornado, ...
[snip]
That's a fact, blue are too many, when your zerg coming, it's by 40+, not less. But for sure you're runing like a zerg.
Not kicked, dont lie, quit by my yourself, because I'm very tired by your toxic mentality and behaviour. And blue are just zerger atm. Where is fun to run with zerg who always play against enemies outnumbered ? And dont tell me it's t the same situation than this summer. If I want to play on yellow side, that's my own choice, I dont have any allegiance of DC faction and you.
Without deto and steel tornado, but always in large group. Dont forget that, stay hidden in your zerg for have the feeling to be in safety and powerful.@Erondil
Crazy, but it seems some nb like to take down isolated targets on horses but they don't like to get hunted in return...Without deto and steel tornado, but overnumbered, well played.
yeah yeah sure... we play everynight without deto and tornadoe and then we have that magical x2 button: each time we wipe a loltornadoe warband, it gets magically "outnumbered". Rofl. Of course most of them would care to admit their deto+tornadoe uber lagsh.it did not win the day. Again.
[snip]
Last time I saw you using 4+ultimates for me I was on my sorc and you werent riding but anyway, its not very relevant. Also I dont see where I said I dont like to be hunted down by a whole group, actually I love it because it makes me feel important, and I always have a good laugh when I see an organized group using ultimates for one guy and yet not able to insta kill him.
If you think it was aimed to you personnally, then you know yourself you're guilty.
Ofc, he's guilty. I laughed so much you attacked his group, and they tried to hunt you and they failed.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 1:24PM0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
K, I'll spell it out in a new thread and tell ZoS how they can get rid of AoE caps while still adhering to the original philosophy behind them.Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.0 -
Sureshawt✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
Wrobel wrote in this thread:
We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.
Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.
On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.
The implication is that they recognize PBAoE is already to strong and encourages stacking/blobbing. Thus they would not make it stronger by raising/removing the caps(at least on the damage component). They have other solutions in mind for blob/stack busting that do not involve raising/removing AoE caps.
Thankfully we have objective Devs looking out for the best interests of the game for everyone versus some players that want to further increase their ability to mindless spam PBAoE and mow down large groups of players.
Edited by Sureshawt on December 17, 2015 10:51PM1 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
Wrobel wrote in this thread:
We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.
Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.
On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.
The implication is that they recognize PBAoE is already to strong and encourages stacking/blobbing. Thus they would not make it stronger by raising the caps. They have other solutions in mind for blob/stack busting that do not involve raising AoE caps.
Thankfully we have objective Devs looking out the best interests of the game for everyone versus some players that want to further increase their ability to mindless spam PBAoE and mow down large groups of players.
What you and many others don't understand (including @Wrobel ) is that the removal of dmg AoE caps will incentivize people to spread out. Right now a group of 24 is better of to stack so they can benefit from 37.5% damages reduction (its more mitigation than any ultimate of the game) with AoE smart heals (the 6 taking 100% damages will always be healed first). Now if you remove dmg AoE caps, those groups will want to spread out a bit more, to balance the damage increase. Thus, single target will become more important because an AoE wont hit more than 6 people as often as now. With a removal of AoE caps, you will most likely see AoE less used because people wont stack as much as now, and an AoE is not worth using if it hits less than 4 people.
I will repeat once again, dmg AoE doesnt encourage stacking alone, dmg AoE are meant to do the contrary (look at daoc) but the virtual 37.5% mitigation does. Simply because it makes AoE heals stronger than AoE damages.
Edited by Erondil on December 17, 2015 10:51PM~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel8 -
Sureshawt✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
Wrobel wrote in this thread:
We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.
Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.
On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.
The implication is that they recognize PBAoE is already to strong and encourages stacking/blobbing. Thus they would not make it stronger by raising the caps. They have other solutions in mind for blob/stack busting that do not involve raising AoE caps.
Thankfully we have objective Devs looking out the best interests of the game for everyone versus some players that want to further increase their ability to mindless spam PBAoE and mow down large groups of players.
What you and many others don't understand (including @Wrobel ) is that the removal of dmg AoE caps will incentivize people to spread out. Right now a group of 24 is better of to stack so they can benefit from 37.5% damages reduction (its more mitigation than any ultimate of the game) with AoE smart heals (the 6 taking 100% damages will always be healed first). Now if you remove dmg AoE caps, those groups will want to spread out a bit more, to balance the damage increase. Thus, single target will become more important because an AoE wont hit more than 6 people as often as now. With a removal of AoE caps, you will most likely see AoE less used because people wont stack as much as now, and an AoE is not worth using if it hits less than 4 people.
I will repeat once again, dmg AoE doesnt encourage stacking alone, dmg AoE are meant to do the contrary (look at daoc) but the virtual 37.5% mitigation does. Simply because it makes AoE heals stronger than AoE damages.
I can't figure out whether you really can't understand the destructive result of simply raising AoE caps (especially on damage) or if you think the devs and other players are dumb enough to buy this argument for your own personal entertainment.
I've experienced games where PBAoE without caps has dominated PvP play. Everyone running around in bomb groups mindlessly spamming uncapped AoE ...rinse ....repeat...boring.
I will not play a game completely dominated by running with a group mashing the same button over and over hoping my AoEs wreck the enemy group before theirs do it to mine. It is bad enough right now as it is. AoE should be used tactically in certain situations not spammed every PvP encounter.
Thankfully we have Devs that recognize the danger and are actively seeking other solutions to blobbing/stacking otherwise I'd have to find another game.
Edited by Sureshawt on December 17, 2015 11:14PM2 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
Wrobel wrote in this thread:
We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.
Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.
On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.
The implication is that they recognize PBAoE is already to strong and encourages stacking/blobbing. Thus they would not make it stronger by raising the caps. They have other solutions in mind for blob/stack busting that do not involve raising AoE caps.
Thankfully we have objective Devs looking out the best interests of the game for everyone versus some players that want to further increase their ability to mindless spam PBAoE and mow down large groups of players.
What you and many others don't understand (including @Wrobel ) is that the removal of dmg AoE caps will incentivize people to spread out. Right now a group of 24 is better of to stack so they can benefit from 37.5% damages reduction (its more mitigation than any ultimate of the game) with AoE smart heals (the 6 taking 100% damages will always be healed first). Now if you remove dmg AoE caps, those groups will want to spread out a bit more, to balance the damage increase. Thus, single target will become more important because an AoE wont hit more than 6 people as often as now. With a removal of AoE caps, you will most likely see AoE less used because people wont stack as much as now, and an AoE is not worth using if it hits less than 4 people.
I will repeat once again, dmg AoE doesnt encourage stacking alone, dmg AoE are meant to do the contrary (look at daoc) but the virtual 37.5% mitigation does. Simply because it makes AoE heals stronger than AoE damages.
I've experienced games where PBAoE without caps has dominated PvP play. Everyone running around in bomb groups mindlessly spamming uncapped AoE ...rinse ....repeat...boring.
Fortunately we dont have this today!7 -
Sureshawt✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
Wrobel wrote in this thread:
We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.
Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.
On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.
The implication is that they recognize PBAoE is already to strong and encourages stacking/blobbing. Thus they would not make it stronger by raising the caps. They have other solutions in mind for blob/stack busting that do not involve raising AoE caps.
Thankfully we have objective Devs looking out the best interests of the game for everyone versus some players that want to further increase their ability to mindless spam PBAoE and mow down large groups of players.
What you and many others don't understand (including @Wrobel ) is that the removal of dmg AoE caps will incentivize people to spread out. Right now a group of 24 is better of to stack so they can benefit from 37.5% damages reduction (its more mitigation than any ultimate of the game) with AoE smart heals (the 6 taking 100% damages will always be healed first). Now if you remove dmg AoE caps, those groups will want to spread out a bit more, to balance the damage increase. Thus, single target will become more important because an AoE wont hit more than 6 people as often as now. With a removal of AoE caps, you will most likely see AoE less used because people wont stack as much as now, and an AoE is not worth using if it hits less than 4 people.
I will repeat once again, dmg AoE doesnt encourage stacking alone, dmg AoE are meant to do the contrary (look at daoc) but the virtual 37.5% mitigation does. Simply because it makes AoE heals stronger than AoE damages.
I've experienced games where PBAoE without caps has dominated PvP play. Everyone running around in bomb groups mindlessly spamming uncapped AoE ...rinse ....repeat...boring.
Fortunately we dont have this today!
The only true fun fights I have in this game right now are in the open field where AoE button mash groups can be mostly avoided. Inside enclosed areas well that's where the button mashing AoE lagfest hell starts.
Which is why I support the efforts of ZoS to tone down PBAoE mechanics as it is too strong already and not make it worse by simply removing the caps. I know you would like to just run around and kill even larger numbers of players faster with mindless AoE button mashing but thankfully it isn't going to happen.
Edited by Sureshawt on December 17, 2015 11:36PM1 -
FENGRUSH✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭andypappb16_ESO wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »I hate to break it to everyone, but @Wrobel has already answered us and he told us why AoE caps are staying. He just didn't do it explicitly.
@Joy_Division
I clearly Missed that..where/what did he say...
Wrobel wrote in this thread:
We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.
Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.
On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.
The implication is that they recognize PBAoE is already to strong and encourages stacking/blobbing. Thus they would not make it stronger by raising the caps. They have other solutions in mind for blob/stack busting that do not involve raising AoE caps.
Thankfully we have objective Devs looking out the best interests of the game for everyone versus some players that want to further increase their ability to mindless spam PBAoE and mow down large groups of players.
What you and many others don't understand (including @Wrobel ) is that the removal of dmg AoE caps will incentivize people to spread out. Right now a group of 24 is better of to stack so they can benefit from 37.5% damages reduction (its more mitigation than any ultimate of the game) with AoE smart heals (the 6 taking 100% damages will always be healed first). Now if you remove dmg AoE caps, those groups will want to spread out a bit more, to balance the damage increase. Thus, single target will become more important because an AoE wont hit more than 6 people as often as now. With a removal of AoE caps, you will most likely see AoE less used because people wont stack as much as now, and an AoE is not worth using if it hits less than 4 people.
I will repeat once again, dmg AoE doesnt encourage stacking alone, dmg AoE are meant to do the contrary (look at daoc) but the virtual 37.5% mitigation does. Simply because it makes AoE heals stronger than AoE damages.
I've experienced games where PBAoE without caps has dominated PvP play. Everyone running around in bomb groups mindlessly spamming uncapped AoE ...rinse ....repeat...boring.
Fortunately we dont have this today!
The only true fun fights I have in this game right now are in the open field where AoE button mash groups can be mostly avoided. Inside enclosed areas well that's where the button mashing AoE lagfest hell starts.
Which is why I support the efforts of ZoS to tone down PBAoE mechanics as it is too strong already and not make it worse by simply removing the caps. I know you would like to just run around and kill even larger numbers of players faster with mindless AoE button mashing but thankfully it isn't going to happen.
Id like to have an option against greater numbers that ball up - if you wanna call that mindless AOE mashing, Im not sure what the guys standing in a ball bracing for impact flooding healing springs are considered.8
