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AoE Caps Discussion

  • BalgusFlinn
    BalgusFlinn
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    I really think the post about making magicka det act like a chain lightning, doing ever increasing damage each jump is a great idea. Make siege fo more damage near/inside keeps. Remove aoe caps. Make shields(barrier ) critable.
  • mchermie
    mchermie
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    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Only because of the AoE mechanic. Remove it from PvP except for siege and things would improve greatly on all fronts including performance during massive battles.

    Organized groups calling targets and focusing fire on called targets as well as tactical maneuvers will allow outnumbered groups to have a chance. Skill and tactics actually come into play versus mindless AoE spamming.

    Remove AoE and a looooot of people would quit the game. So, no thank you.
    Edited by mchermie on December 11, 2015 11:31AM
    Retired
    NA DC
    K-Hole
    McHermie NB - AR 42
    McHermes DK - AR 18
    Lord Typh Templar - AR 11
  • Dakrana_Thrazvoth
    Dakrana_Thrazvoth
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    jrkhan wrote: »
    prootch wrote: »
    Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

    There sure are. And guess what happens to your ability to assist when every character model is directly on top of the other character models, and soft targeting makes it impossible for one player to hit the same target consistently, let alone multiple players assisting?
    How well does the 'targeting specific targets' work in that scenerio?

    If you are playing with a group where single targeting is effective, then congrats - you've found non-blobbing enemies to play against - that's just exactly what the rest of us want and are trying to encourage :)

    Zerg your opponents at 15 one by one with single target skills ? :trollface:
  • WalkingLegacy
    WalkingLegacy
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    mchermie wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Only because of the AoE mechanic. Remove it from PvP except for siege and things would improve greatly on all fronts including performance during massive battles.

    Organized groups calling targets and focusing fire on called targets as well as tactical maneuvers will allow outnumbered groups to have a chance. Skill and tactics actually come into play versus mindless AoE spamming.

    Remove AoE and a looooot of people would quit the game. So, no thank you.

    Leave the game? That's silly.

    Combat is centered around AoE zerging. This needs to be rebalanced so that AoE is situational, not mindless throwing it out there spamming.

    I agree as I have said in my earlier posts. Siege should only be the main source of mass AoE in Cyrodil.
  • Darnathian
    Darnathian
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    whsprwind wrote: »
    Took him 2 weeks to craft a response and that's his response?

    So we gonna wait another 2-3 weeks for the next one and pray that we can get some coverage on the topic?

    When are we ever gonna reach class balance i wonder.

    its a stall tactic. plain and simple. avoid this heated discussion because the second he states aoe caps are here for good then that eliminates false hope. and more players will leave. if they put it in against all those people in that thread and lost that many its peanuts right now with how many will leave if it stays.
  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
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    We all know what this thread for.
    fQGaG.gif
  • Tyr
    Tyr
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    Jitterbug wrote: »
    whsprwind wrote: »
    Took him 2 weeks to craft a response and that's his response?

    So we gonna wait another 2-3 weeks for the next one and pray that we can get some coverage on the topic?

    When are we ever gonna reach class balance i wonder.

    Soon (tm)

    Never, just like in every other class based game ever made. Class balance is an ongoing process not a static result.
  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

  • Jhunn
    Jhunn
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    @Wreuntzylla You know we once had a game without AoE caps, right? How the game flourished back then? And how almost 4.000 people voted against AoE caps?
    Gave up.
  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
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    Jhunn wrote: »
    @Wreuntzylla You know we once had a game without AoE caps, right? How the game flourished back then? And how almost 4.000 people voted against AoE caps?

    Uncapped AoEs under a stat cap and uncapped AoEs without stat caps are not the same.

    As to voting, forward camp removal for the reduction of zerging! OH YEAH!!!

  • Sublime
    Sublime
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    In short, you enjoy the way large group fights currently play out, and are the opinion that blubbing up is the equivalent to tactical and engaging gameplay?

    Unfortunately, that isn't ZOS' opinion:
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability.
    Edited by Sublime on December 12, 2015 1:46AM
    EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)
  • Merlight
    Merlight
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    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    If the "small numbers" have nigh-zero chance of winning (and by chance I mean having the opportunity to improve builds/strategy/whatever after a failure, not a fixed X% chance), they're going to make a choice:
    a) quit
    b) bring more numbers

    In the end the players who "don't have the time or ability to compete" will stand out-numbered against those who chose option b). And then it will be their turn to choose a) or b). See where this is going?

    There's no incentive to try and improve ones game-play when stacking more bodies works better.
    EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
    The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
    Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
    When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future.Richard A. Bartle
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    ... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it.Santie Claws
  • FENGRUSH
    FENGRUSH
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    Jhunn wrote: »
    @Wreuntzylla You know we once had a game without AoE caps, right? How the game flourished back then? And how almost 4.000 people voted against AoE caps?

    Uncapped AoEs under a stat cap and uncapped AoEs without stat caps are not the same.

    As to voting, forward camp removal for the reduction of zerging! OH YEAH!!!

    Actually damage from ults like standard was way higher back then - so this isnt really accurate. The current meta is pretty much the easiest to stay alive in with numbers - its the biggest factor on the battlefield, and thats due to poor mechanics/balance.


    Also to your 'people left in droves comment' - the biggest chunk of population leaving in the shortest amount of time occured when AOE caps were implemented actually. Servers got reduced due to lack of population after that in a massive way.


    All in all - its nice thoughts, but its not accurate at all.
  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
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    Sublime wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    In short, you enjoy the way large group fights currently play out, and are the opinion that blubbing up is the equivalent to tactical and engaging gameplay?

    Unfortunately, that isn't ZOS' opinion:
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability.

    There is no possible way you could reach that conclusion from my writing.
  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
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    Merlight wrote: »
    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    If the "small numbers" have nigh-zero chance of winning (and by chance I mean having the opportunity to improve builds/strategy/whatever after a failure, not a fixed X% chance), they're going to make a choice:
    a) quit
    b) bring more numbers

    In the end the players who "don't have the time or ability to compete" will stand out-numbered against those who chose option b). And then it will be their turn to choose a) or b). See where this is going?

    There's no incentive to try and improve ones game-play when stacking more bodies works better.

    Zergballing has been going on for most of the life of this game. If the small numbers haven't quit or brought more numbers by now, wouldn't you think the chances of it happening in the future are rather small?

  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
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    FENGRUSH wrote: »
    Jhunn wrote: »
    @Wreuntzylla You know we once had a game without AoE caps, right? How the game flourished back then? And how almost 4.000 people voted against AoE caps?

    Uncapped AoEs under a stat cap and uncapped AoEs without stat caps are not the same.

    As to voting, forward camp removal for the reduction of zerging! OH YEAH!!!

    Actually damage from ults like standard was way higher back then - so this isnt really accurate. The current meta is pretty much the easiest to stay alive in with numbers - its the biggest factor on the battlefield, and thats due to poor mechanics/balance.


    Also to your 'people left in droves comment' - the biggest chunk of population leaving in the shortest amount of time occured when AOE caps were implemented actually. Servers got reduced due to lack of population after that in a massive way.


    All in all - its nice thoughts, but its not accurate at all.

    Narrowing the argument to an ultimate that produces an immobile AoE , and that is not spammable, when you are arguing for uncapping spammable AoEs, is like arguing that all Ford cars suck and pointing to the Pinto for evidence.

    More basically, ttk is is much lower on average now. Damage has somewhat recovered from the first day of IC but dodge roll and block are still in their nerfed state. Ezareth is over in the templar thread talking about his 17k crits...

    Zergball meta? It's just recently that zergballs could be defeated at all. They would create so much lag that nobody would take damage, the server would crash after an hour and the winner was decided by whichever side logged back in the fastest. So, I'm not sure how you are comparing metas, theorythetical?

    My anecdotal evidence is different. Non-zergball masses on Azura are taking out zergballs. Peeling from the back of zergballs with snares has become a sport.

    I personally think that the solution to zergballs is unpurgeable, AoE snares. The masses don't get destroyed in a few seconds, but nevertheless get killed off.

    "the biggest chunk of population leaving in the shortest amount of time occured when AOE caps were implemented"

    That's kind of odd. I am not positive, but I seem to recall that most AoE's had a cap from day 1, and that only a small handful of abilities changed in the cap patch, most of them in the alliance tree. That caused a mass exodus??? If I remember correctly, most of the anger was that ZoS had not been truthful about AoE caps in beta.

    The biggest pop drop I can remember was after forward camp removal. The servers all went from pop lock most of the day to no lock even during most of prime time, and they dropped the pop cap twice in that time period. The people who stumped for the camp removal defended it by saying everyone was out in PvE leveling undaunted for the new passives. Only, nothing really changed after that.... It wasn't until tamriel unlimited that populations recovered somewhat.

    I totally agree that the state of the game can be described as poor mechanics/balance. However, I can't see how your proposed solution won't lead to the eventual demise of the game. Unless they nerf all AoE's so much that it no longer matters.

  • whsprwind
    whsprwind
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    Hello,
    I really liked that you brought in Daoc as an example but you need to understand that the two games are different.
    In Daoc you can't CC break on your own. That game was really who mezzed first wins and albion sorcs OP.

    That being said, i would like to point out what feng stated as one of the reasons aoe caps needs to be removed is because balling up is what is causing most of the lag (wheeler's explanation covers this). Ball groups need to go, and AoE caps removal will be most effective for this

    Fix the lag first. The unbalance from pwning elite groups can be worried about later.
    NA(PC) - EP
    - Dragon Knight Amuro X

    "Of course you're a victim... what are you going to do about it? Transcend your own suffering and be a good person!" -jbp
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    What you are writing here is not accurate. Player band together, but those who "don't have the time or ability to compete", to use your words, are incapable of being in a tightly organized blob to actually derive much benefit from AoE caps. If I throw a spear shards at a random group of 20 players in a given skirmish, I might get 8 of them if I am fortunate. Only 2 of those 20 are being affected by the AoE cap.

    If I thrown that spear against these blob guilds that have 20, I will hit all 20 of them. 14 of them - over 70% of that raid - is deriving significant damage reduction.

    And this doesn't even get into the scenario where a group of 6 bumps into a group of 16, where no matter what, the 6 are always taking full damage.

    AoE caps do not treat everyone equally. They discriminate and offer more benefits to those who have the organization and - most importantly, the numbers to exploit them. They are, in short, not fair. That is why I and many others want nothing to do with them. Getting rid of unnecessary server calculations and dissuading blobbing are the proverbial cherries on top of the cake.

    Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • Jura23
    Jura23
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Merlight wrote: »
    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    If the "small numbers" have nigh-zero chance of winning (and by chance I mean having the opportunity to improve builds/strategy/whatever after a failure, not a fixed X% chance), they're going to make a choice:
    a) quit
    b) bring more numbers


    In the end the players who "don't have the time or ability to compete" will stand out-numbered against those who chose option b). And then it will be their turn to choose a) or b). See where this is going?

    There's no incentive to try and improve ones game-play when stacking more bodies works better.

    I think we dont necessarilly have to increase the chance of small numbers against zergs. I kind of agree with Wreuntzylla on this. On top of that, zergbombing is very repetitive and I dont see much meaning in that.

    What we DO need is more incentives for players to play small scale. One of them might be upcoming AP gain change. Maybe Zenimax will come up with more. But I think in perfect world zergs will be fighting zergs and small groups will be fighting small groups and avoid zergs.
    Edited by Jura23 on December 12, 2015 9:17AM
    Georgion - Bosmer/Templar - PC/EU
  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    whsprwind wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    Hello,
    I really liked that you brought in Daoc as an example but you need to understand that the two games are different.
    In Daoc you can't CC break on your own. That game was really who mezzed first wins and albion sorcs OP.

    That being said, i would like to point out what feng stated as one of the reasons aoe caps needs to be removed is because balling up is what is causing most of the lag (wheeler's explanation covers this). Ball groups need to go, and AoE caps removal will be most effective for this

    Fix the lag first. The unbalance from pwning elite groups can be worried about later.

    What DAoC are you talking about? The early DAoC (even then hibs had druid group purge) or the later DAoC where everyone could have purge and determination?

    I don't disagree that zergballs need to go. The sooner the better. But having a majority of the player base leave as a result is not the way to handle it. This is coming from someone that has run in gank groups ever since DAoC release. If you worry about the unbalance of the elite groups later, the game will be dead at the same time as it gets better.

    Seriously folks, some of you are bright individuals. How do you not see that people won't stick around if a group a fraction of the size of their zerg smashes them every time they come out? Because that is what will happen. If you give a tradesman the tools, he will use them....

    Edited by Wreuntzylla on December 12, 2015 10:32AM
  • Wreuntzylla
    Wreuntzylla
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    What you are writing here is not accurate. Player band together, but those who "don't have the time or ability to compete", to use your words, are incapable of being in a tightly organized blob to actually derive much benefit from AoE caps.

    You misunderstand the simplicty of coordinated groups. All that is required is to completely sublimate your will to the crown.

    In zergballing your assigned role is very simple. Follow crown and steel tornado over and over. Or follow crown and heal and purge. Or when crown (or someone else assigned to the task) calls your number use your ultimate. The larger the group, the fewer task any one person is assigned and the more your individual skill pales in importance to doing your assigned role. So even the most casual of players, good gear or bad, can be a working part if they use the skills required of them and do their job come hell or high water.

    The only difficult part about zergballing is overcoming your small group or 1v1 instincts. The average causal or PvE player doesn't have small group or 1v1 instincts and typically fills a zergball role better than a typical soloer..
    Edited by Wreuntzylla on December 12, 2015 10:28AM
  • whsprwind
    whsprwind
    ✭✭✭
    whsprwind wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    Hello,
    I really liked that you brought in Daoc as an example but you need to understand that the two games are different.
    In Daoc you can't CC break on your own. That game was really who mezzed first wins and albion sorcs OP.

    That being said, i would like to point out what feng stated as one of the reasons aoe caps needs to be removed is because balling up is what is causing most of the lag (wheeler's explanation covers this). Ball groups need to go, and AoE caps removal will be most effective for this

    Fix the lag first. The unbalance from pwning elite groups can be worried about later.

    What DAoC are you talking about? The early DAoC (even then hibs had druid group purge) or the later DAoC where everyone could have purge and determination?

    I don't disagree that zergballs need to go. The sooner the better. But having a majority of the player base leave as a result is not the way to handle it. This is coming from someone that has run in gank groups ever since DAoC release. If you worry about the unbalance of the elite groups later, the game will be dead at the same time as it gets better.

    Seriously folks, some of you are bright individuals. How do you not see that people won't stick around if a group a fraction of the size of their zerg smashes them every time they come out? Because that is what will happen. If you give a tradesman the tools, he will use them....

    Forgive me if i'm wrong but the Daoc i played was 10 years ago, the only way to cc break was purge on a 30 min timer that most people lower than rank 5 would not even have.

    Eso it's just a matter of right click + left click.

    Anyway, the gank groups , are actually already present in current Eso. Small groups of 3-4 taking on 20 or more so it's not really going to drive people away. In fact people love watching these good players play and that is what will bring people to ESO

    Back to the lag point: why worry bout unbalance when you don't even have a playable game? When a ballgroup comes along ping shoots to 1k anyway there's no balance to discuss everyone suffers
    NA(PC) - EP
    - Dragon Knight Amuro X

    "Of course you're a victim... what are you going to do about it? Transcend your own suffering and be a good person!" -jbp
  • Merlight
    Merlight
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jura23 wrote: »
    What we DO need is more incentives for players to play small scale. One of them might be upcoming AP gain change. Maybe Zenimax will come up with more. But I think in perfect world zergs will be fighting zergs and small groups will be fighting small groups and avoid zergs.

    But that's not going to happen as long as all those groups are fighting over the same objectives. Path of least resistance -- some zergs do whatever they can to avoid enemy zergs (because the enemy always has a bigger zerg, right? :D).

    I'm really curious how the AP change will play out. Who cares about AP? Certainly not the most effective guild blobs. The PUGs who struggle to level their Assault/Support skills probably do, but those will hardly give up the relative safety of 24 for potentially more AP of 12. I doubt this change alone will spread the population, but I'll gladly be proved wrong.

    I don't disagree that zergballs need to go. The sooner the better. But having a majority of the player base leave as a result is not the way to handle it. This is coming from someone that has run in gank groups ever since DAoC release. If you worry about the unbalance of the elite groups later, the game will be dead at the same time as it gets better.

    Seriously folks, some of you are bright individuals. How do you not see that people won't stick around if a group a fraction of the size of their zerg smashes them every time they come out? Because that is what will happen. If you give a tradesman the tools, he will use them....

    What do you suggest, then? The tradesman analogy can be applied to the current state as well. How do we get rid of zergballs (tradesman) while keeping the protection they're gaining from AoE caps (tools) in place?

    EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
    The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
    Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
    When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future.Richard A. Bartle
    Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal.lordrichter
    ... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it.Santie Claws
  • Sublime
    Sublime
    ✭✭✭✭
    Sublime wrote: »
    In short, you enjoy the way large group fights currently play out, and are the opinion that blubbing up is the equivalent to tactical and engaging gameplay?

    Unfortunately, that isn't ZOS' opinion:
    Wrobel wrote: »
    We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability.

    There is no possible way you could reach that conclusion from my writing.

    This basically comes down to how impactful the removal of AOE cap's in combination with the other upcoming changes would be. This is because if Barrier/Purge/Maneuver are nerfed correctly, small groups still won't be able to take down large groups, while equally sized groups will be able to break up zergballs.
    EU | For those who want to improve their behaviour: the science behind shaping player bahaviour (presentation)
  • mchermie
    mchermie
    ✭✭✭✭
    I agree as I have said in my earlier posts. Siege should only be the main source of mass AoE in Cyrodil.

    What a boring game that would be. Stand still and push one button. Youre not able to use your abillities while youre sieging, you know?
    "Lets see who can put up the most siege and spam left MB"
    Edited by mchermie on December 12, 2015 2:08PM
    Retired
    NA DC
    K-Hole
    McHermie NB - AR 42
    McHermes DK - AR 18
    Lord Typh Templar - AR 11
  • Merlight
    Merlight
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    mchermie wrote: »
    I agree as I have said in my earlier posts. Siege should only be the main source of mass AoE in Cyrodil.

    What a boring game that would be. Stand still and push one button. Youre not able to use your abillities while youre sieging, you know?
    "Lets see who can put up the most siege and spam left MB"

    If you think that's what would happen, you're not giving it enough thought. If you came to a keep and saw 20vs20 people on siege, would you unpack your siege weapon to join the pack? Wouldn't you rather go kill enemy siege operators with your abilities? I disagree with the suggestion (siege-only AoE), but you can't dismiss it with the argument you made.
    EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
    The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
    Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
    When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future.Richard A. Bartle
    Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal.lordrichter
    ... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it.Santie Claws
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    What you are writing here is not accurate. Player band together, but those who "don't have the time or ability to compete", to use your words, are incapable of being in a tightly organized blob to actually derive much benefit from AoE caps.

    You misunderstand the simplicty of coordinated groups. All that is required is to completely sublimate your will to the crown.

    In zergballing your assigned role is very simple. Follow crown and steel tornado over and over. Or follow crown and heal and purge. Or when crown (or someone else assigned to the task) calls your number use your ultimate. The larger the group, the fewer task any one person is assigned and the more your individual skill pales in importance to doing your assigned role. So even the most casual of players, good gear or bad, can be a working part if they use the skills required of them and do their job come hell or high water.

    The only difficult part about zergballing is overcoming your small group or 1v1 instincts. The average causal or PvE player doesn't have small group or 1v1 instincts and typically fills a zergball role better than a typical soloer..

    You have not refuted my point. And you are failing to acknowledge the organization and discipline that distinguishes the blob-groups that run pain trains and those PuG groups that, in your words, "don't have the time or ability to compete." Your obvious dislike of this playstyle has clouded your perspective.

    If what you said was true that zergballing was so simple any casual could do it effectively by following crown and spamming one button over and over, then the old Brandon South-Ga zergblobs from the NA server would have been something more than cannon fodder and AP farms to the better and more organized guilds.

    Those PuG groups come nowhere near the effectiveness of concentrating their bodies and firepower and healing on Crown which is why they get Rekt. Because they fail to do this, they are more dispersed, more prone to chase shinies, and fail to coordinated their movement which means they are not deriving as much benefit from AoE caps as their more organized and disciplined opponents. They would still lose vs. an organized guild and die a little faster without AoE caps, but they would do more damage and get more kills without them.

    This scenario is even more exaggerated when those disorganized masses who are not part of any group flood from Nickel to Ash, the Chalman milegate, or the Alessia bridge. Without even a crown to look to, there isn't even a proper herdlike collective mentality and they hardly derive any protection from AoE caps at all, unlike the organized bomb-groups.

    AoE caps are not treating everyone equally in these scenarios. Groups with more organization are going to be able to better take advantage of this game mechanic.

    And you still have yet to write anything that justifies why when a group of 6 bumps into a group of 16, where no matter what, the 6 are always taking full damage whereas the 16 should not.
    Make Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Derra wrote: »
    Sureshawt wrote: »
    Devotion wrote: »
    remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

    im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

    "ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
    To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

    i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

    Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

    Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

    AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

    If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

    I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

    LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....


    Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

    Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
    Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got ;)


    Here is my explanation why I laugh every time I see a thread with tons of people asking for the removal of AoE caps.

    Most players band together because they don't have the time or ability to compete. Zergballs are often half the population on the map. It is sheer idiocy to believe that implementing the ability to destroy a majority of the player base with small numbers is good for the game. ZoS is smart in not allowing uncapped AoE because within weeks of doing so, their game will slide until they have barely any population.

    Every PvP MMO that has dwindled to insignificance or outright death did so because a small group of people could wipe entire zergs, typically due to uncapped AoE. It happened in DAoC. It happened in Warhammer. It happened in...

    In DAoC, uncapped AoE was a problem from the first wave or two of 50's. Void elds ranged AoEing to blow everybody up. For a while you could AOE doors, and kill 50% of the players inside in a few casts...

    Then came PBAOE groups. Group of 8, gaggle of 20, zerg of 100. It didn't matter. If you had the element of surprise, were moving fast and cc'ing first, you wiped entire relic raids and had very little cleanup to do. Breaking cc wasn't important until later on. In most fights, adds broke your cc. If you went to bomb a zerg, no cc lasted long enough to matter because zergs be zergs. It mattered for group play away from population centers, but that was dominated by radar until Mythic finally started banning the radar use.

    As an aside, I really, really miss the deathblow scrolling of your name. You actually knew which players or groups were good, and did not confuse them with people posting cherry picked videos of killing low levels or baddies. Can we patch that in?

    Neither DAOC nor Warhammer Online died because of AOE's

    DAOC was one of those unfortunate MMO's around when WoW was released....The main MMO's at the time all took it to chin because of this..Most did not recover from it. While DAOC is still technically up...it like the other 3 big MMO's at the time (AC/UO/EQ) never truly recovered from it.

    Warhammer Online died because they screwed up during development of the game and never could fix it. From picking 2 Faction pvp (which lead to horrible realm balance issues) to just the general keep system that was slapped together in Beta it just didn't work...That doesn't mean Warhammer Online didn't have a crap ton of features that you still see today in MMOs.

    It also didn't help EA basically said *** it and abandoned the game after first year when they saw it wasn't going to achieve WoW numbers.

    Also wanted to add warhammer would of probably survived if it had been allowed to go f2p; however from what was said about it the deal with game workshop would of made that unprofitable.. Basically ea had to give them money for every player/subscriber they had it seems.. And f2p players would of actually counted towards that.. And if they were spending no money that would of basically been bad news on EA part

    Which sucks... Because warhammer had the trophy system which would of been one of the best ways for it to make money... I'm honestly surprised that system wasn't stolen by other MMOs yet.
    Edited by Xsorus on December 13, 2015 4:43AM
  • PainfulFAFA
    PainfulFAFA
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    23rd day since this "discussion" on AoE caps opened and we still don't know whats happening or where the future of ESO PvP is heading.
    PC NA
    Aztec | AZTEC | Ahztec | Aztehk | Master of Mnem
    MagDK | Magplar | Magward | Mageblade | Stamsorc

  • wigglesgaming26
    23rd day since this "discussion" on AoE caps opened and we still don't know whats happening or where the future of ESO PvP is heading.

    And we've also gotten one reply that did not have any mention of aoe caps, which is what this thread is about.
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