AoE Caps Discussion

XT4xm4nX · December 2015

Remove the caps on AOE damage please. The relevant points have already been made... I'm just voting.

WalkingLegacy · December 2015

Sublime wrote: »

WalkingLegacy wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

@WalkingLegacy What is bubble?

You are suggesting to implement cooldowns, and while they certainly do help balance abilities, I highly doubt ZOS will implement them because it would turn the whole game upside down.

You say siege should be the only AOE, and that you aren't suggesting a tab-target fest. Yet, siege being the only AOE will force people to focus (i.e. tab-target) single players in order to have enough damage to kill somebody. The problem won't be too high burst, but damage being too low to actually kill somebody.
I either didn't get your post, or you have a thinking error.

Siege should be the only mass AoE. I like having AoE skills on my class but it shouldn't be saturated.

Obviously your assumption on too little or too much damage would have to be balanced. You don't redesign without having to, you know, redesign.

What do you think of the rest of my post?

Bubble is a termed coined from other MMO games where you pop a bubble to either a) prevent all damage for x time or b) mitigate % amount of damage for x time

I think having cooldowns on certain abilities will help push the games combat into a more strategic engagement. Of course restructuring/redesign would have to be part of the process.

I also entertain myself with the idea that certain utilities like a bubble should have its own bar/slot such as the ultimates. This way we can still keep as many combat abiltiies on our bars as possible.

Having some cooldowns on utilities, and counters designed around the concept of attack, counter, control instead of the current spam, spam, spam could be beneficial.

Jura23 · December 2015

XT4xm4nX wrote: »

Remove the caps on AOE damage please. The relevant points have already been made... I'm just voting.

There is no poll. And this is not election.

Personally I feel like AoE caps are here to stay. From the feel of this thread and the whole ZOS notion around it.

Devotion · December 2015

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Sureshawt · December 2015

Devotion wrote: »

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

Derra · December 2015

Sureshawt wrote: »

Devotion wrote: »

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

PainfulFAFA · December 2015

Sureshawt wrote: »

Devotion wrote: »

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

[snip] are you talking about?
The mindless 1 button spam ball group meta is already THE SINGULAR way to play.
Being in a large group gives you MORE damage reduction, MORE AP, and MORE damage.

The reason why we're asking for AoE Cap removal is because small groups have absolutely ZERO chance of winning against a larger ball group. By removing them, there is a fighting chance.

Removing AoE from the game is completely foolish unless they remove ALL group heals or even the Templar class lmfao.
How will a group be able to single target a zerg down when any player can press 1 button and that zerg is back up to 100%...

[edited for profanity bypass]

Nikkor · December 2015

honestly kinda really pissed. just had to blow another 150k ap to move campaigns. hopefully staying here a while but I simply can't find a way around it. 300k AP GONE IN ONE WEEK FOR NOTHING.

Jura23 · December 2015

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Devotion wrote: »

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

[snip] are you talking about?
The mindless 1 button spam ball group meta is already THE SINGULAR way to play.
Being in a large group gives you MORE damage reduction, MORE AP, and MORE damage.

The reason why we're asking for AoE Cap removal is because small groups have absolutely ZERO chance of winning against a larger ball group. By removing them, there is a fighting chance.

Removing AoE from the game is completely foolish unless they remove ALL group heals or even the Templar class lmfao.
How will a group be able to single target a zerg down when any player can press 1 button and that zerg is back up to 100%...

Single targeting somebody in a zerg would not be as much problém since AoE heals are usually weaker than single target heals. Or at least should be. But I think when he says remove AoE he probably means both dmg and heals and barrier, cleanse etc, everything.

[edited to remove quote]

prootch · December 2015

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

Erondil · December 2015

Jura23 wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Devotion wrote: »

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

[snip] are you talking about?
The mindless 1 button spam ball group meta is already THE SINGULAR way to play.
Being in a large group gives you MORE damage reduction, MORE AP, and MORE damage.

The reason why we're asking for AoE Cap removal is because small groups have absolutely ZERO chance of winning against a larger ball group. By removing them, there is a fighting chance.

Removing AoE from the game is completely foolish unless they remove ALL group heals or even the Templar class lmfao.
How will a group be able to single target a zerg down when any player can press 1 button and that zerg is back up to 100%...

Single targeting somebody in a zerg would not be as much problém since AoE heals are usually weaker than single target heals. Or at least should be. But I think when he says remove AoE he probably means both dmg and heals and barrier, cleanse etc, everything.

Ppl will stack up to body block, and gl to focus one target when there are 20ppl stacked in one m2 then, especially if youre outnumbered. AoE are meant to force people to spread out, but atm it does the contrary because of strong smart healing AoEs and damage AoE cap.

prootch wrote: »

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

Are you talking about those group always outnumbering their ennemies, and more than often dropping all their ultimate for one solo guy?

[edited to remove quote]

Jhunn · December 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Are you talking about those group always outnumbering their ennemies, and more than often dropping all their ultimate for one solo guy?

Yes. Yes, he is.

mchermie · December 2015

prootch wrote: »

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

Yes, but that doesnt work against an organised group of 20+

Erondil · December 2015

mchermie wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

Yes, but that doesnt work against an organised group of 20+

Except if you're 40

mchermie · December 2015

@Wrobel
How long does it take to produce a response to what people are wondering about in this thread?

Anazasi · December 2015

its not AOE damage vs single target damage. Its not even AOE damage vs healing. The issue that you are facing is large groups spamming the same [snip] ability because you let it become the "I WIN BUTTON" Learn to balance the abilities. Capping AOE damage or changing the mechanics of healing is not the long term answer.

You have created a meta for stam based damage that exceeds the magic based damage base line.
In PVP the majority of players that want to do damage are stam builds using 2 handed weapons or dual wielding. Why do you think this is happening well 30k stam pools 2k regens and oh yeah 5k weapon damage. So what do you get wrecking blow steel tornado spamming monkeys stacked 24- 30 deep balled up like a yoyo on a string waiting for someone in TS to call out veils negates heals and oh yeah stay tight spam steel tornado.

you are the combat lead and you are fighting fires when all you need to do is look at the data you get from the server engineers. NERF THE ABILITIES THAT ARE causing the issues. You will not find a simple one step solution and you certainly don't want to nerf healing again. All you will gain is groups will all roll stam and everyone will simply play a dps role.

Every vet player told you from the start proxy det was a bad idea. You did it anyway and it became the magicka crutch for AOE DPS. Some of those lucky magic builds that got EMP and maxed out CP found out that magic builds are powerful. well again this was your creation. You allowed the champ system to go in without fully testing so now you capped cp on incremental advancements. Again simple one step solution because the problem was too complex to be dealt with appropriately. You chose simple solution instead of balancing abilities.

I'm not trying to be an [snip] because I really do enjoy the game when its not lagged out or broken. But honestly stop looking for easy fixes they will only make it worse. My father once told me, "if a job is worth doing, do it right the first time." So far all you have managed to do is cover up every real problem with more problems. Start looking for the solution where you know it is. BALANCE THE ABILITIES, stop trying to balance the game with broken filters.

[edited for profanity bypass]

cschwingeb14_ESO · December 2015

So, if we are not going to get there removal of AE caps due to performance reasons, can we fix the caps that we have?

How about no falloff, no AE hitting 60 targets. Just 100% damage to all targets, with a 24 target cap. Even 15 would work much better than what we have now for zerg busting. And be less calculations than the current setup

This alongside fixes to AE skill radius (smaller radius for pbae skills, larger damage for cone abilities), det, better ranged AE, etc

Sureshawt · December 2015

Derra wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Devotion wrote: »

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....

Sureshawt · December 2015

mchermie wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

Yes, but that doesnt work against an organised group of 20+

Only because of the AoE mechanic. Remove it from PvP except for siege and things would improve greatly on all fronts including performance during massive battles.

Organized groups calling targets and focusing fire on called targets as well as tactical maneuvers will allow outnumbered groups to have a chance. Skill and tactics actually come into play versus mindless AoE spamming.

DHale · December 2015

This is more for my fellow players than devs but be very specific when you say balance. Balance means different things to different players. What is balanced to one is not and will not be balanced to another. I still see 8 ppl all vr 16 taking 2 to 3 minutes to take down the down trodden magic dk. Good players can make broken builds work. Bad players have a tough time making any build work frankly. I don't want to see steel tornados to be nerfed or any other class or skill I would just like magic equivalent. Ppl should have morphs or options in general to play as Stam or magic. My high elf sorc is able to give and take a beating but my high elf Templar can neither take nor give a beating. Most Templar abilities are useless but most sorc abilities are really useful. Of course that is not balanced in my opinion.

Derra · December 2015

Sureshawt wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Devotion wrote: »

remove caps plz. it may be a vague memory but many people were deceived coming to this game from DAOC. It was sold as taking influences from DAOC right up to IC and the ability to combat large numbers with fewer numbers.

im sure in fact there was a youtube video used from alpha/beta where 6 people killed like 50 or so? and it was a dev video demonstrating how good the game is.

"ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »
To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear."

i remember this was a huge *** storm back in the day. they "forgot" some of the skills were meant to have caps throughout alpha and beta.

Remove AoE completely from the PvP game except for siege.

Please do not remove AoE caps as that will only make the game even more AoE centric then it already is. I do not want a return to DAOC style AoE Mezz/Bomb groups.

AoE mechanics already encourage ball groups to run around spamming the same buttons over and over. It encourages lazy skilless play that a monkey could do. Removing the caps will just make it worse as it will become the singular way to play.

If you died to those grps - you deserved what you got.

I still remember those days fondly where doing something not smart would have dire consequences. When fighting quality opponents on the other hand aoe dmg was almost entirely redundant back then.

LOL.... yea because it was so easy to avoid AoE Mezz/Bomb groups and you had to be so skilled to run in and spam AoEs. Delusional or purposely deceptive.....

Well i´ve personally played daoc up to 2008/9.

Honestly when playing in our gildgrps we never died to cc/aoe combos. The aoe cc was ar too precious to instantly break it with dmg afterwards (not that you would hit a non stick running grp with a complete aoe CC anyways).
Like i´ve said. If you died to that you did not play smart and deserved what you got

Sublime · December 2015

Sureshawt wrote: »

mchermie wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

Yes, but that doesnt work against an organised group of 20+

Only because of the AoE mechanic. Remove it from PvP except for siege and things would improve greatly on all fronts including performance during massive battles.

Organized groups calling targets and focusing fire on called targets as well as tactical maneuvers will allow outnumbered groups to have a chance. Skill and tactics actually come into play versus mindless AoE spamming.

I'm sorry, but that's just straight-up wrong.

If you die to a AOE train, with such a group it's either because you didn't spread out and kite them properly or because they are better than you. Dying to 15m AOE's while running a tactic that is built around spreading out and using 28m single target spells doesn't make any sense, but rather implies that the raid didn't play to its winning conditions or had poor execution. (I do agree though that this tactic is much harder to pull off than the other ones currently played)

The reason this tactic isn't as successful, is that the healing/shielding/cleansing/buffing/bodyblocking benefits gained through stacking make it virtually impossible to reliably focus down a player with aimed skills. And not because of 15m radius AOE skills, which shouldn't hit the players in the first place, if executed properly.

And yes I know, it's hard to get awah when 24 players are chasing you down. But loosing 1/24 of the raid doesn't matter in a game where characters can be resurrected in <1s.

PS: I know 15m radius is op as such, but it fits nicely to demonstrate that even such a skill doesn't work against spreading out, if done properly.

Runkorko · December 2015

Wrobel wrote: »

Remember that a group of 5 players is not going to be able to kill a group of 20 players in most situations. It is possible if you catch the group completely off guard or funnel them into a tight space, but in a straight up 5 on 20, the larger numbers are going to win most times.

According to your logic, China will rule the world ... and yes, we all love you. Keep a good work.

Dakrana_Thrazvoth · December 2015

prootch wrote: »

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

Without deto and steel tornado, but overnumbered, well played.

MisterBigglesworth · December 2015

Put in an Overcrowded mechanic
"You move 5% slower for every friendly player within 5m"
and
"You move 10% slower for every friendly player within 1m"

and then just cap it at like 90% movement reduction.
Have the server perform this check every 5 seconds.

This would force people to stay spread out atleast 6m, creating more opportunities for single-target focusing down healers.

wigglesgaming26 · December 2015

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Put in an Overcrowded mechanic
"You move 5% slower for every friendly player within 5m"
and
"You move 10% slower for every friendly player within 1m"

and then just cap it at like 90% movement reduction.
Have the server perform this check every 5 seconds.

This would force people to stay spread out atleast 6m, creating more opportunities for single-target focusing down healers.

Yes that slows and annoys the other group but not is that beneficial to your group of 5 if you stand somewhat close to each other in a confined space such as the IC sewers. That wouldn't solve anything, just create turtle paced battles which isn't fun for anyone. Take the caps out and people will learn that crown stacking isn't the solution anymore since there will be a negative to doing so, which is everyone can get hit, thus, forcing people to spread out and play more strategically. Implementing the removal of the caps will create a more strategic and positive cyrodiil experience.

wigglesgaming26 · December 2015

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Put in an Overcrowded mechanic
"You move 5% slower for every friendly player within 5m"
and
"You move 10% slower for every friendly player within 1m"

and then just cap it at like 90% movement reduction.
Have the server perform this check every 5 seconds.

This would force people to stay spread out atleast 6m, creating more opportunities for single-target focusing down healers.

It's also adding insult to injury by giving the server many more calculations to make thus making the lag worse, and on top of that we'll still complain about what we're currently complaining about which is we can't hit everyone with the skills that are intended for that purpose

jrkhan · December 2015

prootch wrote: »

Guys... this may seem crazy, but there are some groups that already fight without deto/tornadoes. And curiously it also works. and targeting specific targets in assist is efficient. Astonishing...

There sure are. And guess what happens to your ability to assist when every character model is directly on top of the other character models, and soft targeting makes it impossible for one player to hit the same target consistently, let alone multiple players assisting?
How well does the 'targeting specific targets' work in that scenerio?

If you are playing with a group where single targeting is effective, then congrats - you've found non-blobbing enemies to play against - that's just exactly what the rest of us want and are trying to encourage

whsprwind · December 2015

Took him 2 weeks to craft a response and that's his response?

So we gonna wait another 2-3 weeks for the next one and pray that we can get some coverage on the topic?

When are we ever gonna reach class balance i wonder.

Jitterbug · December 2015

whsprwind wrote: »

Took him 2 weeks to craft a response and that's his response?

So we gonna wait another 2-3 weeks for the next one and pray that we can get some coverage on the topic?

When are we ever gonna reach class balance i wonder.

Soon (tm)