Decado wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

There seems to be some confusion about this system being unfair towards pvp players, which is not the case.

1) pvp players need to do many gold keys (=pve content) to get the monster shoulders, this is the same for all players.

2) anyone can buy the monster mask (pvp and pve) because you can get it with AP or gold.

3) you dont make any gold with pvp, it only costs a lot of gold.

1) undaunted= 20 Minutes a day for a month or so Alliance rank- half a year(not 100% sure how long it took first person to get it) continuous pvp

2) you can also get it with doing AP which you passively get while playing, i dont earn tokens doing pledges/trials/vMA/vDSA and then spend them on helms,

3)you make lots of alliance points passively which you can then sell for gold, also PvE costs gold nowadays because everything is BoP. all the new PvE sets from IC and Orsinium are all bound.

Dont get me wrong im not asking them to take any of those things away from the pure PvPers, im asking them to ADD something for the pure PvErs ,they need to find a balance otherwise people will leave. and none of us want that.

and for the record i do both PvE and PvP.

I also do both pvp and pve and I dont think they take anything away from pve players in any way.

You make AP by doing pvp but the siege (and new forward camps) also cost AP, the tri-stat pots and purple buff food arent exactly cheap either.

PVE is a lot cheaper in my experience, you can use normal v15 pots which drops from mobs and cheaper blue buff food. The mobs also drop a lot of stuff which you can sell to vendors, or you can decon it and sell the materials. You can make easy gold just by selling v15 silks/ingots/leather.

If you make 50k AP for example, there is a conversion rate of 1:4 so thats only 12.5k gold. That roughly translates to 30x v15 mats. The disadvantage for the pvp player is that he also need to buy tri-stat pots and purple buff food with that 12.5k income.

In pve its a lot easier to make consistent gold just by doing dungeons/farming mobs, in pvp it can be a lot harder to make consistent AP if there's a 50-man zerg roaming around for example.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

im glad this game stills where people work to get their stuff,
not get them in their mailbox as they please

You then should have to work in PvE for your helmet/shoulder stuff too.
As we PvE people had to do for months, instead of "getting it in the mail".

I love PvP in other games, but hate it in ESO, because the balance is in ruins:
NBs in invisible god mode kill people easily by surprise attacks before they can react.
Now these carefree PvP gankers even demand PvE helmets/shoulders,
because they cannot loot it from PvE players like TV stones?

I only can wish that the PvE people will receive a skill workshop soon.
A skill workshop where we can somehow work for the endgame skills we need,
instead of forcing us into a PvP butchering place as AP food for NBs in god mode.

Yeah, when they implemented PvP in ESO it was amateur hour. Unfortunately, instead of taking mistakes and good design implementations from other MMOs the ZOS designers are learning from scratch. It's not difficult to separate the PvE and PvP systems so nerfs, skill line changes, and gear don't impact the two very different games.

This is MMO game design 101 and ESO failed that class. Fortunately, ESO is top of the class in most other aspects of a great game.

I think this is being blown way out of proportion. There is too much animosity between PVE and PvP players and both sides are just confused as to what is really happening.

BOTH PVP AND PVE PLAYERS BENEFIT FROM THE MONSTER HELM VENDORS.

PvE players can buy the monster items with the gold they earn from pve'ing. PVP players dont really earn gold at all while in PVP. I know this first hand as someone who stricly pvp'd for months. Once i started running dungeons and such, the amount of gold i made has ridiculously increased. Its much easier to earn gold than to earn AP.

PvP players can buy the monster items with AP earned from pvp'ing. PvE players of course dont earn AP at all while pve'ing.

Both sides must pvp to level assault and support. Which takes a long time.

Both sides must pve to level undaunted. Which also takes a long time.

And to those PvE'ers who say you must pvp in IC to get agility sets or AP gear n such. That is is imply not true. You can buy these from anyone simply because they are BoE items.

Also, agility and willpower gear drop from dungeon bosses!!! SO YOU ARE REWARDED WITH PVP STUFF BY DOING PVE! AND THEN YOU CAN SELL THAT ITEM FOR GOLD IF YOU WISH TO BUY YOUR MONSTER ITEM FROM THE CYRODIL VENDOR!!

Everyone needs to stop over reacting and see how things really are going to be fair.

PS

As far as traits go, i think they should make it completely RNG, but not make the cost of these items too extreme. If you get the trait you want first try, praise the rng gods. If you dont, you shouldnt have to save up 1million gold or AP to try again.

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Decado wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

There seems to be some confusion about this system being unfair towards pvp players, which is not the case.

1) pvp players need to do many gold keys (=pve content) to get the monster shoulders, this is the same for all players.

2) anyone can buy the monster mask (pvp and pve) because you can get it with AP or gold.

3) you dont make any gold with pvp, it only costs a lot of gold.

1) undaunted= 20 Minutes a day for a month or so Alliance rank- half a year(not 100% sure how long it took first person to get it) continuous pvp

2) you can also get it with doing AP which you passively get while playing, i dont earn tokens doing pledges/trials/vMA/vDSA and then spend them on helms,

3)you make lots of alliance points passively which you can then sell for gold, also PvE costs gold nowadays because everything is BoP. all the new PvE sets from IC and Orsinium are all bound.

Dont get me wrong im not asking them to take any of those things away from the pure PvPers, im asking them to ADD something for the pure PvErs ,they need to find a balance otherwise people will leave. and none of us want that.

and for the record i do both PvE and PvP.

I also do both pvp and pve and I dont think they take anything away from pve players in any way.

You make AP by doing pvp but the siege (and new forward camps) also cost AP, the tri-stat pots and purple buff food arent exactly cheap either.

PVE is a lot cheaper in my experience, you can use normal v15 pots which drops from mobs and cheaper blue buff food. The mobs also drop a lot of stuff which you can sell to vendors, or you can decon it and sell the materials. You can make easy gold just by selling v15 silks/ingots/leather.

If you make 50k AP for example, there is a conversion rate of 1:4 so thats only 12.5k gold. That roughly translates to 30x v15 mats. The disadvantage for the pvp player is that he also need to buy tri-stat pots and purple buff food with that 12.5k income.

In pve its a lot easier to make consistent gold just by doing dungeons/farming mobs, in pvp it can be a lot harder to make consistent AP if there's a 50-man zerg roaming around for example.

Sure, you make AP but you can't even bring consumables into this, as PvE'ers use equal amounts as pvp'ers (I burn roughly 200-400 potions a day atm trying to improve my MSA scores and theorytesting mechanics in there). I can't use 'normal' potions the same way you can't so we can't really discriminate either on consumables once again, we're both equal. Yes we can sell and decon more materials than you can, and this is a bonus, but most of the time I find this bill goes to my armour repair, but yes we still make a small profit from this, nothing compared to the price of 250k AP though. Moreover, I don't get huge volumes of mats from PvE, maybe 10 from a maelstrom run and no gold dropping, it's a small amount more than the rare PvP mail granted but still? As for group content, it's slightly more and the gold can sometimes cover the cost of repair if with a good group. I can agree that old PvE, when trials dropped worth while PvE content drops that people will buy was as you say, consistent gold. Nowerdays the picture is very different from how you paint it. My only income is my crafting writs which I do daily, everything else in my day is a loss of which I can assure you.

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

I think this is being blown way out of proportion. There is too much animosity between PVE and PvP players and both sides are just confused as to what is really happening.

BOTH PVP AND PVE PLAYERS BENEFIT FROM THE MONSTER HELM VENDORS.

PvE players can buy the monster items with the gold they earn from pve'ing. PVP players dont really earn gold at all while in PVP. I know this first hand as someone who stricly pvp'd for months. Once i started running dungeons and such, the amount of gold i made has ridiculously increased. Its much easier to earn gold than to earn AP.

PvP players can buy the monster items with AP earned from pvp'ing. PvE players of course dont earn AP at all while pve'ing.

Both sides must pvp to level assault and support. Which takes a long time.

Both sides must pve to level undaunted. Which also takes a long time.

And to those PvE'ers who say you must pvp in IC to get agility sets or AP gear n such. That is is imply not true. You can buy these from anyone simply because they are BoE items.

Also, agility and willpower gear drop from dungeon bosses!!! SO YOU ARE REWARDED WITH PVP STUFF BY DOING PVE! AND THEN YOU CAN SELL THAT ITEM FOR GOLD IF YOU WISH TO BUY YOUR MONSTER ITEM FROM THE CYRODIL VENDOR!!

Everyone needs to stop over reacting and see how things really are going to be fair.

PS

As far as traits go, i think they should make it completely RNG, but not make the cost of these items too extreme. If you get the trait you want first try, praise the rng gods. If you dont, you shouldnt have to save up 1million gold or AP to try again.

No animosity here at all. Yes, they are making PvE gear available to PvP players, just have the reverse be true. PvP players can sell PvP items and gear from IC for gold. Just allow the same for PvE players and stop making all of the dungeon gear BoP. Let us sell gear for AP or Gold, or separate the gear, skills, and system all together.

So either make it HEALTHY ECONOMY between the two groups or separate them entirely. That is all people are saying, don't just open things up to one side.

I honestly prefer that the skill lines stay separate COMPLETELY between PvE and PvP. That alliance skill line should only work in PvP. I am sick of skills being nerfed for PvP reasons and that impacting PvE content...WTH is up with that?

Also, I sure wish we had the ability to change traits. This RNG system they have for top end loot is terrible, and nearly everyone is in agreement on that.

I absolutely loathe gated content. Gated content is any content which discriminates against or locks people out of content. This can be for any number of reasons. It could be because of lack of gear or lack of character progression. The content could be behind a pay wall or it could be in the form of forced content. This is any content which the player must complete in order to acquire an item or skill even though they have no desire to take part.

For instance, guild traders is the most obvious form of gated content in eso. You are forced to jump through hoops just to sell your gear. It even goes as far as gating smaller guilds from acquiring decent vendor exposure simply because they do not have the money to compete in the biding process. This exasperates the issue and ultimately leads to a few guilds dictating prices for the entire game.

Monster sets are another form of gated content. Personally, I don't mind completing dungeons however there are many players who absolutely loathe PvE. These sets definitely should have multiple methods of acquisition so that players can pick and choose the content they wish to participate in. I am glad Zenimax is putting a vendor for these sets into the game. The less gated content the better.

PvP skill acquisition is presently something I am not a fan of. Normally I wouldn't mind doing a little bit of PvP to acquire the skill lines, however given the state of PvP, it is something I do not want to participate in. There are certain skills which are more or less compulsory for a lot of builds which are gated behind cyrodil. Vigor, caltraps and magicka detonation are the 3 main offenders. Vigor is the only stamina heal in the game. The fact that it is locked behind PvP is pretty ***. Alternatives to those skill lines could be in the fighters guild / undaunted and mage guild skill lines or littered throughout the weapon skill lines. There could even be a universal shared set of skills which are leveled up either through PvP or PvE. Skill lines really aren't something that should be gated considering its the "core" part of the game.

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

I think this is being blown way out of proportion. There is too much animosity between PVE and PvP players and both sides are just confused as to what is really happening.

BOTH PVP AND PVE PLAYERS BENEFIT FROM THE MONSTER HELM VENDORS.

PvE players can buy the monster items with the gold they earn from pve'ing.

The issue that is that nobody makes gold playing how they like anymore. Unless of course you're the kind of player that prefers grinding as endgame and not simply a means to an endgame. So no, if fact, we don't make gold from endgame PvEing anymore. All the sellable sets are not in demand. The in-demand sets are craftable or BoP. Nobody gets ESO rich by PvEing endgame content anymore.

In PvP, AP is organically gained by playing PvP. There is a big difference here, and this is where the "fairness" of this deal drops off.

The fact is PvP has always had a way to circumvent the RNG system of this game, using elite vendors. It's a token system purely for PvP. TV stones are the same thing.

In PvE, there is no comparable token system =/= fair.

Oh and to just point out how Ludacris this idea is @ZOS_BrianWheeler, I will quote the following:

Wargaard wrote: »

Where's my Maelstrom/v16 master wep's for AP then?

I too don't want to have to do Maelstrom Arena. I don't like solo play in my group play. therefore I shouldn't have to do it. Please add Maelstrom weapons as well so I can purchase with AP and gold. This is no different than adding undaunted gear.

You truly are opening Pandora's box here. The only fair way to go about it after breaking the seal is inevitably having a one stop shop including all the gear in the game purchasable using every currency available. Or, you know, a token system.

Cuyler wrote: »

Saint314Louis1985 wrote: »

I think this is being blown way out of proportion. There is too much animosity between PVE and PvP players and both sides are just confused as to what is really happening.

BOTH PVP AND PVE PLAYERS BENEFIT FROM THE MONSTER HELM VENDORS.

PvE players can buy the monster items with the gold they earn from pve'ing.

The issue that is that nobody makes gold playing how they like anymore. Unless of course you're the kind of player that prefers grinding as endgame and not simply a means to an endgame. So no, if fact, we don't make gold from endgame PvEing anymore. All the sellable sets are not in demand. The in-demand sets are craftable or BoP. Nobody gets ESO rich by PvEing endgame content anymore.

In PvP, AP is organically gained by playing PvP. There is a big difference here, and this is where the "fairness" of this deal drops off.

The fact is PvP has always had a way to circumvent the RNG system of this game, using elite vendors. It's a token system purely for PvP. TV stones are the same thing.

In PvE, there is no comparable token system =/= fair.

Oh and to just point out how Ludacris this idea is @ZOS_BrianWheeler, I will quote the following:

Wargaard wrote: »

Where's my Maelstrom/v16 master wep's for AP then?

I too don't want to have to do Maelstrom Arena. I don't like solo play in my group play. therefore I shouldn't have to do it. Please add Maelstrom weapons as well so I can purchase with AP and gold. This is no different than adding undaunted gear.

You truly are opening Pandora's box here. The only fair way to go about it after breaking the seal is inevitably having a one stop shop including all the gear in the game purchasable using every currency available. Or, you know, a token system.

All great points, and Pandora's box for sure.

willymchilybily wrote: »

i dont see why PvE players are being upset by the prospect of monster sets being available from a vendor when that vendor sells the items for both GOLD and AP. it seems fair to both parties.

As for skill lines. We all have to find the mage books for the meteor/entropy/magelight, we all have to PvP if we want prox det, vigor, caltrops, purge. And we all have to dungeon if we want undaunted. and in my opinion, anything build critical is unlocked fairly early in all cases or not really build critical opposed to build preferred.

but I'm happy to debate any of my statements if someone has an example that contradicts the above.

Oh because running around collecting books is SO HARRRD compared to lvl 7 Assault.

Holy.

acw37162 wrote: »

Well,

PvP players will be getting a vendor giving access to undaunted monster helms and shoulders for AP and/or gold and that is a good change players who don't want to PvE have access to beat in slot monster helms and shoulders they want, cool.

That leaves two outstanding changes that need to come along.

Assault and support skill lines should ever opened up to all players upon reaching Veteran Ranks or Level 50 for not previously attained through PvP experience.

PvP players need a way to level undaunted skills and passives in Cyrodil or IC.

PvP players don't have to PvE

PvE players don't have to PvP

Everyone can play the game how hey want with access to everything they want.

While completely fair and unbiased someone will go nuts guaranteed.

Terrible update I disagree completely it's essentially removing a tier of skilled players being the only ones with certain gear i.e. Kenai helm and bogdan/sheer venom what's next they sell maelstrom weapons? It's an MMO there should be a reason to do things outside of pvp which is horridly boring any way. The game actually has an unintended form of skill progression in the dungeon system and this will do away with and replace it with world of war craft pig farmers in a sense that just grind out Cyrodil

The more I think about it the more a "shared" alliance skill line and gear acquisition is the way to go.

Presently the undaunted skill line and monster sets are unlocked via completing dungeons, pledges and achievements. PvP also has 2 skill lines which you must PvP to unlock. There are a lot of cross skills and abilities which are extremely useful no matter what content you are participating in.

The solution is to create a set of trees which are universally leveled. It won't matter what style of content you participate in just as long as you complete the content.

Content completion would yield tokens. You would be capped at a limited amount of tokens per week. Tokens would be granted no matter what content you complete. All content would grant tokens provided you have not exceeded the cap. Those tokens would be exchanged for a guaranteed non random item. Once you hit your token cap, you are rewarded with alternatives instead of tokens, for instance a boost to gold, CP generation, Skill line leveling rate, etc so that you have a reason to continue playing once you hit the cap.

Token exchange rate should be reasonable! Excessive grinding is not acceptable.

ZOS_BrianWheeler wrote: »

It's currently designed that pieces of armor from Undaunted and various dungeons appear on this vendor along with Cyrodiil set pieces but only 1 slot per week (this applies to both the "pve" gear and the "pvp" gear). My apologies for not including that in the initial chat about it on ESO live.

So each time it appears, the a select few pieces of gear from PvE and PvP are chosen from a slot such as ring, necklace, helm, shield, etc?

Just want to make sure I'm understanding this properly.