@Crown no 'skill' involved in saying; "follow crown", "get on crown or I'll kick you".

Having 23 people follow you and do as you say doesn't make you a good leader or player, if you stick together and run round as a ball group you're going to kill anyone you see because most of the time you're vastly outnumbering opponents. Stop with the big words and trying to sound intellectual to justify your incompetence of PVP skill.

Darnathian wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Jura23 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

Lol at the "benefits" that small groups have you listed... Literally nothing you listed has anything to do with game mechanics like the benefits that Zergs receive.

Small groups would also stand a better chance if they also didn't have to fight against the lag that Zergs bring with them. Small groups need the game to be much more responsive in order to coordinate and fight against AOE spamming blobs

Right, because being able to run builds that are more survivable and honed towards the 1v1 and small group fights that group players have to engage in while also solo or in a small group (away from the main raid) multiple times a night provides no benefit at all for you during those fights.

"I'd like to present exhibit A to the court for how solo/small group players are consistently disingenuous in the discussion and want to only ever focus on the disadvantages they have."

As to the other benefits, it speaks to the fact that solo/small group players have more freedom than large group players have during the night. That doesn't necessarily translate into combat wins, but they are certainly perks that large group players don't get to enjoy. As I said at the bottom of the post, things are hardly equal, but as you so eloquently proved, your side of the argument never wants to even admit that there are some advantages to running solo or in a small group, so why even bother having the debate?

The discussion is about the game mechanic advantages that Zergs have over small groups... Not some arbitrary "benefits" you made up that don't do anything for small groups in the battlefield.

You seem to be incapable of following, so I'll try to phrase it yet again.

People playing in large groups have to run group-oriented bars that are quite lackluster when they engage in solo or small skirmishes. People playing in large groups have to engage in these kinds of fights many times throughout the night, which may come as a surprise to you. People playing in small groups or solo do NOT have to handicap their build/skillbar and therefore have a distinct advantage during the 1v1 or small skirmishes that people in large groups so often have to engage in.

How, in what world, is that an arbitrary ::airquotes:: benefit? You may not think it's all that important (though it is...) but the fact that you refuse to even admit that it's a benefit is indicative of what you and everyone else on that side of the debate does in these discussions. I, and everyone else that plays in large groups for pvp, completely revamp my skill bar and sometimes my gear when I want to go play solo or with a friend or two. That should say something. And if you're still incapable of understanding, I know not what to do with you.

They don't have to. They choose to do so. Which is pretty significant difference.

You can choose not to, but when you engage another large group, they will have a significant advantage. So yes, you pretty much need to make your skill bars more group-oriented. Either you have a disadvantage when fighting other large groups (which usually means more because those fights happen to determine control of map objectives), or you have a disadvantage during small skirmishes away from your group. It should be obvious why almost everyone chooses to not be disadvantaged during the group v group fights, meaning that the solo/small group has the advantage during those small skirmishes.

For some classes and builds this means swapping out a single skill, for others, far more. Either way, it's an advantage, one that is like pulling teeth to get some people to even acknowledge. I mean, the entire last few posts are about people refusing to admit even a single advantage to being solo or in a small group. No one is saying things are perfectly balanced, but the fact that people insist they have zero advantages just shows how ridiculous these debates are.

Everything has its pros and cons. So what is your point exactly?

The point is that there ARE some cons to being in a large group, and none of the peanut gallery is even capable of admitting that. Don't believe me? Just scroll up.

@Xsorus , agree to disagree, but thank you for reaffirming that the goal of threads like this isn't to improve solo/small group play, but to create yet ANOTHER thread bashing large group play and throwing out the word 'zerg' because it makes people feel better. Gold star Sypher, goal achieved.

Pointing out your zerging with 24 people isn't bashing zergs; if you feel bad about being called a Zerg for running 24 people, stop bloody zerging with 24 people and you won't be called a Zerg. This whole butt hurt thing you guys get when people point out what you are doing is hilariously stupid.

lol. Get 23 more friends and stop whining. The only butt hurt going on in these forums is all the lonely anti social people that came to a game designed for large scale PVP and want it changed drastically so they can 1 v x again. Who cares about AP. That is just another excuse to complain about it. You don't like it? Fine go to a different campaign with a lower population.

If you want to zerg around with 23 other people i have zero problem with it; you pretending you're doing anything else other then zerging though....makes you look silly.

Darnathian wrote: »

Eldruf wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

MrGrimey wrote: »

TheLaw wrote: »

This is the least of our issues, Sypher. You should use your influence to keep PVP from completely dying. This won't help.

You guys aren't getting the big picture.

Balancing out AP gain is the first step to discourage zerging. Zerging is the leading cause of performance issue in cyrodiil.

I'm really surprised (and disapointed) that people in this thread don't get that.

It has been said many times. Zergs already have an advantage on the battlefield due to sheer numbers. They don't need added help from game mechanics and added incentives from AP gain. Btw, anybody who says AP doesn't matter is flat out lying

AP is nice but I have no need for it. I look at kill counter these days to see how the night went. My AP tracker mod is uninstalled lol

The game has need for AP balancing though, regardless if YOU personally need AP or not.

Leaderboards make a game competitive, on ESO the PVP leaderboards are determined by AP. (Just in case you failed to notice).

This whole post is so the streamers can compete for emp to push their stream numbers.

Speechless... the most ignorant comment on this entire thread.

Eldruf wrote: »

@Crown no 'skill' involved in saying; "follow crown", "get on crown or I'll kick you".

Having 23 people follow you and do as you say doesn't make you a good leader or player, if you stick together and run round as a ball group you're going to kill anyone you see because most of the time you're vastly outnumbering opponents. Stop with the big words and trying to sound intellectual to justify your incompetence of PVP skill.

I have nothing against solo/1vX/smallman, in fact I love playing in all of those styles, but please don't tell me you truly believe what you just said is all that running a raid group is about.

Here's some basics aside from just your supposed 'stack on crown':

- Movement: multiple people have builds entirely dedicated to running Maneuvers so the group can actually move as a tactical unit. You may disagree w/ the powerful mobility this gives raids, but in the current meta it's simply too powerful to not make use of.

- Juking: this is how you bait another raid to dump their ults, most useful to waste their negates. Now in order to actually do this successfully, you have to predict where the enemy group is bombing you from and what they expect you to do. Also, your group is going to have to be well coordinated and know exactly what the plan is; going in and back, or straight through? Where is the end point/regroup?

- Scouting: if all 23 ppl in raid just have their noses up crown's butt, they're doing it wrong. You want at least 1-2 scouts who are good at surviving 1vX. This is what I do, about 90% of the time I'm off crown doing my own thing making call outs when needed, when we're about to engage w/ another raid, I come back and support the grp.

- Proper ult rotation: group members need to observe proper rotation - especially for Negates and Barriers, but also be able to use their ults reactively. Double popping things like Negate/Barrier because you didn't observe the order is the kind of thing that makes the difference between the group wiping vs disengaging and regrouping - but so is not popping a Barrier jus cuz crown didn't call it.

- Lastly, each player needs to have personal skill for the raid to excel as a whole. Saying "no skill is involved" is about the stupidest thing you can possibly say. When each person knows the limits of their build inside and out and can intuit the calls crown will make before he makes them, the raid will function much more smoothly and effectively. And having the edge on effective function plays a big role in raid vs raid fights.

Edit:
In 24 vs 24, each person's individual contribution is less noticeable than in a 4 vs 4 when looking at it as a whole, but that doesn't mean that they are less skillful. You may even argue that individual actions are less important in a raid, but you have to take into account that it's more a matter of 'potential impact'. In a 4 vs 4, your max potential impact is against 4 out of 4 ppl, in a raid vs raid your max potential impact is on 24 out of 24 ppl. Of course the reverse is the same, your lowest potential impact is on 0 out of 24 ppl.

What do I mean by all this? Take for example a perfectly timed counter Negate that disrupts the other raid long enough for your raid to bomb and wipe them before they can counter or disengage. Individual actions like that can decide entire fights. While it might not seem more important to you than the NB who helps focus down all 4 targets 1 by 1 in your 4 vs 4, it's a simple fact that wiping 24 ppl is more important than wiping 4 ppl in Cyrodiil.

MountainHound wrote: »

Here are the VE worms crawling out the wood work lord @FENGRUSH

Take a look at their sigs and you'll see them night capping on their EP toon names and blocking pop space on DC side come prime time, i'd familiarize yourself with both sets if you truly want to get to know them. I believe if ZOS remove aoe caps lord @FENGRUSH , you could wipe out their 70 man teams with a flare.

But honesty deep down EP, I find it an honor the lengths you guys have to go to to stay level on the scoring screen. It truly is satisfying to know we still own you all.

Jitterbug wrote: »

My only problem with the large groups (I run solo) is the obvious effect they have on performance. Other than that it seems appropriate to run an army in a war zone.
I obviously try to avoid fighting these large groups, and the ones that coordinate their every little move I just leave alone. There is no point even trying to make a dent in them. They seem free of consequences when they all gather up in the same spot and if one of them gets left behind all they have to do is make it back in the huddle and they're safe again. So I guess my other problem would be they seem immune to damage when they stay close together.
I don't personally care how much AP they make vs. how much I make.

My experience with these ball groups is that they are everywhere later than would be apropriate. They are so focused on maintaining their ball that they don't pay enough attention to their surroundings. Single person or a small group has a lot more situational awarness.

Teargrants wrote: »

Eldruf wrote: »

@Crown no 'skill' involved in saying; "follow crown", "get on crown or I'll kick you".

Here's some basics aside from just your supposed 'stack on crown':

- Movement: multiple people have builds entirely dedicated to running Maneuvers so the group can actually move as a tactical unit. You may disagree w/ the powerful mobility this gives raids, but in the current meta it's simply too powerful to not make use of.

- Juking: this is how you bait another raid to dump their ults, most useful to waste their negates. Now in order to actually do this successfully, you have to predict where the enemy group is bombing you from and what they expect you to do. Also, your group is going to have to be well coordinated and know exactly what the plan is; going in and back, or straight through? Where is the end point/regroup?

Entire builds dedicated to running Maneuvers? really? Any proper stamina build can do that, it doesn't take special builds...
I ran in a 12-16 man group yesterday as a v2 stam character (with no proper jewelry, random stuff from the harborage quests) and had no problem spamming rapid at any time when I felt like it or when the raid leader called it out, in addition to constant steel tornado and sprinting.

About juking. That's just the raid leader's responsibility. It does require skill, fast thinking and reaction, but not from the whole group....

I'm not saying this to bash the skill of individuals in the group, but it's definitely not in these situations that they shine the most imo.

Etaniel wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Eldruf wrote: »

@Crown no 'skill' involved in saying; "follow crown", "get on crown or I'll kick you".

Here's some basics aside from just your supposed 'stack on crown':

- Movement: multiple people have builds entirely dedicated to running Maneuvers so the group can actually move as a tactical unit. You may disagree w/ the powerful mobility this gives raids, but in the current meta it's simply too powerful to not make use of.

- Juking: this is how you bait another raid to dump their ults, most useful to waste their negates. Now in order to actually do this successfully, you have to predict where the enemy group is bombing you from and what they expect you to do. Also, your group is going to have to be well coordinated and know exactly what the plan is; going in and back, or straight through? Where is the end point/regroup?

Entire builds dedicated to running Maneuvers? really? Any proper stamina build can do that, it doesn't take special builds...
I ran in a 12-16 man group yesterday as a v2 stam character (with no proper jewelry, random stuff from the harborage quests) and had no problem spamming rapid at any time when I felt like it or when the raid leader called it out, in addition to constant steel tornado and sprinting.

About juking. That's just the raid leader's responsibility. It does require skill, fast thinking and reaction, but not from the whole group....

I'm not saying this to bash the skill of individuals in the group, but it's definitely not in these situations that they shine the most imo.

2 Steel Tornado, Speed, 2 Steel Tornado, ect the entire fight? Then the build isn't as optimized for dps as it could be. Steve has a regen build for acting as the dedicated Speed, and another dps build for when he doesn't need to fill that role. Sure he can cast Speed a lot still in his dps build, but nowhere near as much as we have him doing in his speed build.

As far as juking goes, I'm sure you can agree that there's an operational difference between a good lead w/ a mediocre group that tries it vs a good lead w/ a good group trying it.

Teargrants wrote: »

Eldruf wrote: »

@Crown no 'skill' involved in saying; "follow crown", "get on crown or I'll kick you".

Having 23 people follow you and do as you say doesn't make you a good leader or player, if you stick together and run round as a ball group you're going to kill anyone you see because most of the time you're vastly outnumbering opponents. Stop with the big words and trying to sound intellectual to justify your incompetence of PVP skill.

I have nothing against solo/1vX/smallman, in fact I love playing in all of those styles, but please don't tell me you truly believe what you just said is all that running a raid group is about.

Here's some basics aside from just your supposed 'stack on crown':

- Movement: multiple people have builds entirely dedicated to running Maneuvers so the group can actually move as a tactical unit. You may disagree w/ the powerful mobility this gives raids, but in the current meta it's simply too powerful to not make use of.

- Juking: this is how you bait another raid to dump their ults, most useful to waste their negates. Now in order to actually do this successfully, you have to predict where the enemy group is bombing you from and what they expect you to do. Also, your group is going to have to be well coordinated and know exactly what the plan is; going in and back, or straight through? Where is the end point/regroup?

- Scouting: if all 23 ppl in raid just have their noses up crown's butt, they're doing it wrong. You want at least 1-2 scouts who are good at surviving 1vX. This is what I do, about 90% of the time I'm off crown doing my own thing making call outs when needed, when we're about to engage w/ another raid, I come back and support the grp.

- Proper ult rotation: group members need to observe proper rotation - especially for Negates and Barriers, but also be able to use their ults reactively. Double popping things like Negate/Barrier because you didn't observe the order is the kind of thing that makes the difference between the group wiping vs disengaging and regrouping - but so is not popping a Barrier jus cuz crown didn't call it.

- Lastly, each player needs to have personal skill for the raid to excel as a whole. Saying "no skill is involved" is about the stupidest thing you can possibly say. When each person knows the limits of their build inside and out and can intuit the calls crown will make before he makes them, the raid will function much more smoothly and effectively. And having the edge on effective function plays a big role in raid vs raid fights.

Edit:
In 24 vs 24, each person's individual contribution is less noticeable than in a 4 vs 4 when looking at it as a whole, but that doesn't mean that they are less skillful. You may even argue that individual actions are less important in a raid, but you have to take into account that it's more a matter of 'potential impact'. In a 4 vs 4, your max potential impact is against 4 out of 4 ppl, in a raid vs raid your max potential impact is on 24 out of 24 ppl. Of course the reverse is the same, your lowest potential impact is on 0 out of 24 ppl.

What do I mean by all this? Take for example a perfectly timed counter Negate that disrupts the other raid long enough for your raid to bomb and wipe them before they can counter or disengage. Individual actions like that can decide entire fights. While it might not seem more important to you than the NB who helps focus down all 4 targets 1 by 1 in your 4 vs 4, it's a simple fact that wiping 24 ppl is more important than wiping 4 ppl in Cyrodiil.

tldr; Crown's Nan has a peg leg

Etaniel wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Teargrants wrote: »

Eldruf wrote: »

@Crown no 'skill' involved in saying; "follow crown", "get on crown or I'll kick you".

Here's some basics aside from just your supposed 'stack on crown':

- Movement: multiple people have builds entirely dedicated to running Maneuvers so the group can actually move as a tactical unit. You may disagree w/ the powerful mobility this gives raids, but in the current meta it's simply too powerful to not make use of.

- Juking: this is how you bait another raid to dump their ults, most useful to waste their negates. Now in order to actually do this successfully, you have to predict where the enemy group is bombing you from and what they expect you to do. Also, your group is going to have to be well coordinated and know exactly what the plan is; going in and back, or straight through? Where is the end point/regroup?

Entire builds dedicated to running Maneuvers? really? Any proper stamina build can do that, it doesn't take special builds...
I ran in a 12-16 man group yesterday as a v2 stam character (with no proper jewelry, random stuff from the harborage quests) and had no problem spamming rapid at any time when I felt like it or when the raid leader called it out, in addition to constant steel tornado and sprinting.

About juking. That's just the raid leader's responsibility. It does require skill, fast thinking and reaction, but not from the whole group....

I'm not saying this to bash the skill of individuals in the group, but it's definitely not in these situations that they shine the most imo.

2 Steel Tornado, Speed, 2 Steel Tornado, ect the entire fight? Then the build isn't as optimized for dps as it could be. Steve has a regen build for acting as the dedicated Speed, and another dps build for when he doesn't need to fill that role. Sure he can cast Speed a lot still in his dps build, but nowhere near as much as we have him doing in his speed build.

As far as juking goes, I'm sure you can agree that there's an operational difference between a good lead w/ a mediocre group that tries it vs a good lead w/ a good group trying it.

Of course the build isn't optimized, I'm only vet 2 on that character haha
My rotation had a tad bit more stuff in it, reapplying rally, volatile armor, and gdb for the stam reg for example, but overall, very simple stuff to keep up. Also the repentance and spear spam from the templars in the group made my job so much easier.

I'm assuming even mediocre players are capable of following directions and orders, and sticking to crown. Any player who can't handle that has nothing to do in that grp....

When two groups fight it out, the group members' skill won't really be seen before the engage.
The way I see it, the leader will do the best job he can to call out movements, and try to force the other group to pop ultis before the collision for example. Once the collision happens, that's when the better group will stick out.
In a way, the leader can compensate for his group's lack of skill by giving them a good engage.

Not to say that the leader's job is done when the collision starts, far from it, but before it happens, it's all on him.

The groups strength comes from leads ability to reduce players to their basic state of following directions. This format can't work properly without a prominent figure head; a strong voice players can trust in and out of battle.

Get a few players that do whatever they want and the success rate falters.

MountainHound wrote: »

#stillwinning

#Stillfullpotato

GRxKnight wrote: »

MountainHound wrote: »

#stillwinning

Idk dude the rewards you get for winninga campaign really don't entice me to want to even try...i just want kills and ap for more skill points

That's because the point system doesn't reward you like it should. Only personal bonus you get is EMP; in order to get that you need to kill/obtain AP in a fast amount of time. Only zerging will get you that plus the man power to flip keeps.

For better rewards, they will need to revamp AP gains, add more vr16 sets to earn, possibly remove or add a counter to EMP to devalue EMP flips, and introduce additional point objectives/flippable areas.

Did someone really say that most group builds have "builds" dedicated running rapid maneuvers?

Sorry, most stamina builds can place this on their bar and it doesn't require any special awareness or skill to preform/slot