Why are Zergs rewarded more AP?

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Sypher
Sypher
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Assuming you are AP buffed and are killing people for their full AP value, Simple math below:

1 Person Kills 1 Person: They receive 1,000AP. That person was worth 1,000 AP.

2 People Kill 1 Person: They receive 500 AP Each. That person was worth 1,000 AP.

4 People Kill 1 Person. They receive 250 AP Each. That person was worth 1,000 AP.

24 People Kill 1 Person: They receive 120AP Each. That person was worth 2,888 AP.


This baffles me, why is extra AP awarded for larger groups? AP is supposed to be split evenly across your group members. But at some point, it's stop splitting and stays stagnant regardless of how many more people are added to the group.


Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong... I really hope I am.
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  • Satiar
    Satiar
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    Bigger question is who cares about AP? These days most guilds I know play for fun fights and objective completions than AP. Even the farming groups are really just attempts to get high number of kills as opposed to high amounts of AP.
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  • xylena
    xylena
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    AP matters when youre trying to unlock skills and passives on a new character
    Retired until we break the Tank Meta
  • iliatha
    iliatha
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    Sypher wrote: »
    This baffles me, why is extra AP awarded for larger groups?

    I think Zenimax tries to get all those players who didnt play pvp before to cyrodiil. Thats why there are group sizes of 20 ppl, Ap-ticks and overall a very zerg-friendly pvp area. If they would try to reward players for doing solo pvp and stuff it would be kind of the opposite.
    Its a very poor mechanic in my eyes, there a tons of players that are like "i dont pvp at all im just questing and crafting", all it does is to get stupid zerg groups a even higher pvp rank as it would be without such boni.
    There should be much better pvp rewards to get all the casual players to cyrodiil. As it is right now most players simply dont care about pvp.

  • Zheg
    Zheg
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    Same reason why most games give bonuses of some kind to groups, whether it's exp or otherwise. It's an mmo. It's supposed to be social, group up.

    AP is still fine if you can find good ganking while solo, but why should solo play be optimal when Cyrodiil is meant for mass pvp?

    Also, and perhaps more importantly, it seems like you're trying to figure out why people in pvp groups gain more AP than you, and it's not because of the formula you posted. They simply kill more people over the same period of time than you could find solo running between objectives to gank in a field. You have to pick your fights while solo, you can't challenge another raid group. PVP groups have more options, as they should.
  • Valen_Byte
    Valen_Byte
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    seems like just par for the course...working as intended lol

    Edited by Valen_Byte on November 14, 2015 5:09AM
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  • xylena
    xylena
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    encouraging large groups is fine... encouraging blobs isn't
    Retired until we break the Tank Meta
  • Sypher
    Sypher
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    Zheg wrote: »
    Same reason why most games give bonuses of some kind to groups, whether it's exp or otherwise. It's an mmo. It's supposed to be social, group up.

    AP is still fine if you can find good ganking while solo, but why should solo play be optimal when Cyrodiil is meant for mass pvp?

    Also, and perhaps more importantly, it seems like you're trying to figure out why people in pvp groups gain more AP than you, and it's not because of the formula you posted. They simply kill more people over the same period of time than you could find solo running between objectives to gank in a field. You have to pick your fights while solo, you can't challenge another raid group. PVP groups have more options, as they should.

    I play how I want to play, that's not the concern.

    My concern is large groups ALREADY get more AP because they kill more people and are more efficient in this Zerg/Blob meta. Yet, on top of that they are actually getting more AP per kill than let's say a group of 8 are.

    Sure, AP isn't a big deal to many people. I don't even care for AP, I just want good fights. But why should we even flirt with extra incentives to reward larger groups who already have the benefit of being... a large group.

    It's the principle.
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  • Cinbri
    Cinbri
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Bigger question is who cares about AP? These days most guilds I know play for fun fights and objective completions than AP. Even the farming groups are really just attempts to get high number of kills as opposed to high amounts of AP.
    Seems you are from NA. Blobs on EU only farming AP or capturing keeps only when no resistance, seems they think the more higher rank they have - the more skillfull they are.
    And it should be obvious that pvp designed for casuals.
  • kkravaritieb17_ESO
    kkravaritieb17_ESO
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    I thought ZOS made it abundantly clear with all the changes in the combat system so far that they want the zerg-blobs to prevail.

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  • Teargrants
    Teargrants
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    Sypher....
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  • Nafirian
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Bigger question is who cares about AP? These days most guilds I know play for fun fights and objective completions than AP. Even the farming groups are really just attempts to get high number of kills as opposed to high amounts of AP.

    RANKS ARE SEXY OK?
  • Nafirian
    Nafirian
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    Seems you are from NA. Blobs on EU only farming AP or capturing keeps only when no resistance, seems they think the more higher rank they have - the more skillfull they are.
    And it should be obvious that pvp designed for casuals.

    Ye everyone thinks AVA Rank=Skill level but no I only farm ap for dem sexy symbols :>
  • MrGrimey
    MrGrimey
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    As someone who really enjoys solo PvP, I am forced to join these large zergs so I can efficiently farm proximity detention. The system is flawed and AP gain is one of the many reasons that everyone is rolling in a zerg now. There is just way too many incentives to being in a zerg and no drawbacks besides being a major contributor to lag
    Edited by MrGrimey on November 14, 2015 10:41AM
  • Ara_Valleria
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Bigger question is who cares about AP? These days most guilds I know play for fun fights and objective completions than AP. Even the farming groups are really just attempts to get high number of kills as opposed to high amounts of AP.

    Everyone cares about AP. AP is for leaderboards and alliance war ranks and abilities.
    I'm surprised a zer..I mean raid leader like yourself question the importance of AP and its demand.
    tsk tsk... /disappointed.
    Zheg wrote: »
    Same reason why most games give bonuses of some kind to groups, whether it's exp or otherwise. It's an mmo. It's supposed to be social, group up.

    AP is still fine if you can find good ganking while solo, but why should solo play be optimal when Cyrodiil is meant for mass pvp?

    Also, and perhaps more importantly, it seems like you're trying to figure out why people in pvp groups gain more AP than you, and it's not because of the formula you posted. They simply kill more people over the same period of time than you could find solo running between objectives to gank in a field. You have to pick your fights while solo, you can't challenge another raid group. PVP groups have more options, as they should.

    Spoken like a true zergling. :wink:

    On a totally unrelated note... Zheg rhymes with Zerg. Fascinating !

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    Edited by Ara_Valleria on November 14, 2015 11:07AM
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  • k2blader
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    Assuming all four statements are correct, just do 1, 2, or 3 a lot and you'll be earning AP fine.

    Yes?

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  • Derra
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    The only problem in my opinion is the scaling:

    Give a small bonus for every player in grp up to 6 (10% or so resulting in 150% ap gained per kill for 6players and more). Still gives incentive to socialize but largegrps gain nothing over small ones.
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  • MrGrimey
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    k2blader wrote: »
    Assuming all four statements are correct, just do 1, 2, or 3 a lot and you'll be earning AP fine.

    Yes?

    What?
  • Ernest145
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    Satiar wrote: »
    Bigger question is who cares about AP? These days most guilds I know play for fun fights and objective completions than AP. Even the farming groups are really just attempts to get high number of kills as opposed to high amounts of AP.

    That is incorrect most guilds couldn't careless about objectives unless they have a guild member 1st on the leaderboards. That is why you see guilds like yours taking random objectives likes resources or outpost so they can just farm ap, please don't say that these raid guilds don't care about ap. Sypher is asking for everyone to gain the same amount of ap and he is right, why should blob groups get rewarded more ap from kills when they are already given the opportunity to take on more numbers and make more ap? It makes no sense at all.
    Edited by Ernest145 on November 14, 2015 11:28AM
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  • ataggs
    ataggs
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    I don't get why all of the name calling and disdain for guilds that run with the allowed group size, using the same skills that all players have access to. No matter the intention of the OP, this is just another "we hate the way you play" thread. Zerg blob ball train yadda yadda yadda......
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  • Ernest145
    Ernest145
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    ataggs wrote: »
    I don't get why all of the name calling and disdain for guilds that run with the allowed group size, using the same skills that all players have access to. No matter the intention of the OP, this is just another "we hate the way you play" thread. Zerg blob ball train yadda yadda yadda......

    Nobody is calling each other out for how they play or calling them bads, the OP and others are upset about how with all the advantages large groups already have and also how much more efficiently they can earn ap why are they also given more ap per kill? This isn't a thread like you mentioned we just want everyone to earn the same amount of ap from kills.
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  • ataggs
    ataggs
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    The original post says large group, within a few posts, large group morphs to zerg blob. My assumption is that this is referring to the same 24 person group because you don't get AP for the guy the pug kills or someone in a different group. There is nothing wrong with a 24 person group.BTW, If someone needs AP I'm happy to sell,I've got plenty.
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  • allen-iverson
    allen-iverson
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    groups should continue to make more AP because they actually accomplish goals on the map. solo PvP is a lot of fun and allows you to test your skill and challenge yourself against other players and i understand that is a lot of fun, but solo PvP/ lil gank groups contribute little to nothing for winning campaigns or recovering scrolls. Organized groups/guilds do.

    i suggest solo PvP players try out joining an organized guild fight to see what its like. ive been a solo/small group pvp player most of my time in this game and now that im in a group that does Guild vs. Guild on a nightly basis i can honestly say the fights are more fun and require a lot more tact than a lot of people like to think. if you don't think thats the case maybe find a different guild.

    My opinion on this will change when i see sypher post a youtube vid showing us a 1vX keep take/scroll run in a pop-locked server.
    *Marcel Rigmond voice* "Filthy casual."

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  • Tomato
    Tomato
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    The post sounds like a kid saying me, me, me!

    How about we address the real issues: cc system, broken mechanics, perma fear, aoe caps, and endless performance problems.
    Edited by Tomato on November 14, 2015 8:09PM
  • Sypher
    Sypher
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    Swiift wrote: »
    The post sounds like a kid saying me, me, me!

    How about we address the real issues: cc system, broken mechanics, perma fear, aoe caps, and endless performance problems.

    You think I don't know what issues this game has? What have we been doing for the past year with our heads up our own asses.

    Let's start picking this apart piece by piece and fix simple things to make the complex things easier to fix.

    This is a simple, yet overlooked part of the game that should be addressed in hopes of fixing the bigger picture.
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  • Tomato
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    They would need to fix VR14 only bags first for me to care about AP. Currently I just want a playable game after 2 years
  • Sypher
    Sypher
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    groups should continue to make more AP because they actually accomplish goals on the map. solo PvP is a lot of fun and allows you to test your skill and challenge yourself against other players and i understand that is a lot of fun, but solo PvP/ lil gank groups contribute little to nothing for winning campaigns or recovering scrolls. Organized groups/guilds do.

    i suggest solo PvP players try out joining an organized guild fight to see what its like. ive been a solo/small group pvp player most of my time in this game and now that im in a group that does Guild vs. Guild on a nightly basis i can honestly say the fights are more fun and require a lot more tact than a lot of people like to think. if you don't think thats the case maybe find a different guild.

    My opinion on this will change when i see sypher post a youtube vid showing us a 1vX keep take/scroll run in a pop-locked server.

    Oh my goodness..

    "My concern is large groups ALREADY get more AP because they kill more people and are more efficient in this Zerg/Blob meta. Yet, on top of that they are actually getting more AP per kill than let's say a group of 8 are."


    Let me spell it out a bit better, people are way too focused over the fact that I do solo PvP. I'm NOT talking about just solo PvP.

    1 Person

    2 Person Group

    3 Person Group

    4 Person Group

    5 Person Group

    6 Person Group

    7 Person Group

    8 Person Group

    ALL THE GROUPS listed above, are rewarded LESS AP per kill as a whole compared to a group of 20-24 people.


    8 Man groups can't take keeps? Scrolls? They can't get stuff done? I'm sure they can, But why are they rewarded less AP per kill?


    FOCUS PEOPLE. Please, it's already hard enough to portray the message to the devs in a fashion that can get things fixed. Let's not make it even harder.
    Edited by Sypher on November 14, 2015 8:21PM
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  • frozywozy
    frozywozy
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    Cinbri wrote: »
    Seems you are from NA. Blobs on EU only farming AP or capturing keeps only when no resistance, seems they think the more higher rank they have - the more skillfull they are.
    And it should be obvious that pvp designed for casuals.

    I was actually going to say the same and I'm from NA. Most guilds care only about AP nowadays, which is sad. Biggest proof is if you look at the map on Azura Star NA, and on the leaderboards, you'll see AD and DC has double APs compared to EP, yet EP is second on the scoreboard. Why? Because top DC and AD players on the leaderboards are part of guilds who don't care about objectives or winning the campaign, otherwise EP would have 0 keeps most of the time. What they care is to AP farm disorganized groups of EP instead of fighting each other (AD and DC), have challenging guild fights, complete objectives or spread out to other campaigns to even out the factions. When AD and DC actually fight each other with their 30men zergballs at Nikel / Ash gate, server goes kaboom for 15minutes straight.

    Let's just hope when people are done with Fallout 4 and Starcraft 2 Legacy and Orsinium, Trueflame will get popular again and I won't have to deal with this none sense anymore.
    Edited by frozywozy on November 14, 2015 8:39PM
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  • allen-iverson
    allen-iverson
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    no
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  • Huckdabuck
    Huckdabuck
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    Large scale game favors large scale groups? Sounds about right in the grand scheme of things. I mean where have you ever seen anything else advertised or spoken on the forums/livestreams/gaming conventions?

    I hate to say it but as much as some people want this game to be fun and successful...it's pretty obvious that ZOS gave up after borking everything in July of 2014 and has no interest in taking your/our/mine constructive feedback/questions/comments and putting them into the game. They do as they will and we play this steaming pile until we can't take it any longer.

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  • Teargrants
    Teargrants
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    I'm just gona say, whether I'm solo, duo, smallman or in a raid grp, I don't give a rat's ass about how much AP I get killing someone. I just care about getting good fights, AP is just a byproduct of pvping.

    You can go ahead and change the AP to anything you want it's not gona change anyone's playstyle except someone farming for emp.
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