Level 50-80: VR 1-16 Replacement. A New-ish Concept

Artjuh90 · November 2015

it is about it takes to mutch time to reach vet 16 and the immersion breaking part of cadwell's gold and silver. not that the levels are named vet 1-16

Ffastyl · November 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

since Champion Points can be earned by pre-level 50 characters...

Champion Points can be allocated/spent on pre-level 50 characters, not earned. For the skill points, they can be awarded like the Champion Points, accessible from Level 1 for all characters on that account - or granted to the character at Level 50 to prevent high powered low level characters. The latter is necessary if attribute points are kept in. As mentioned earlier, skill points are largely horizontal progression, there is not much harm in granting them to low levels.

Gidorick wrote: »

are we now going to start monitoring which characters earn what CPs? Would that character earn CPs at the higher rate of players with fewer CPs or at the lower rate of players with many CPs?

This issue has already been handled ingame: Champion Points are account bound, each point earned by any character being allotted to all characters. The experience required to earn a Champion Point is dependent upon the player's Champion Rank (number of CP already earned) (i.e. the sliding xp values required for earning CP since Orsinium's release).

As someone who plays two characters at Level 50, the experience earned on each character is individual, however each point earned grants one to the other and also raises the experience required to earn the next CP, regardless of character.

Gidorick wrote: »

ZOS could just remove the skill points and attribute points, but I imagine that would anger quite a few players.

Hence reallocating them to the Champion System. And it does not have to be limited to 16 skill points. With the "near endless" progression offered by the Champion System, many more skill points can be added into the game. Attribute points can be awarded up to a certain threshold, to maintain or decrease the power level of players. A point could be awarded every 30 CP, granting attribute and skill points up until 480 CP, where 16 will have been allotted. The key to doing this is the Devs being frank with how many points can be unlocked via the CS. If all we know is just they are unlocked at intervals and end at some point, frustration will build as players keep guessing at which interval they will stop receiving points.

Gidorick · November 2015

Artjuh90 wrote: »

it is about it takes to mutch time to reach vet 16 and the immersion breaking part of cadwell's gold and silver. not that the levels are named vet 1-16

This idea would make the progression to max level more rewarding with more frequent "rewards"... don't underestimate the impact of perception.

This link: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/227618/why-zos-should-convert-veteran-ranks-to-regular-levels/p1 gives 4 reasons why ZOS should convert Vet Ranks instead of remove them.

As for Cadwell's... that is a problem. I completely agree. That's why I made the Cadwell's Redux thread: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/185967/cadwell-s-redux-concept-to-fix-silver-gold-freetamriel/p1

Unfortunately, the problem with end game isn't ONE problem. I completely agree with that @Artjuh90.

Gidorick · November 2015

@Ffastyl, by earned I meant that the characters benefited from them... they have them... wrong term used for my meaning.

So with your idea a player who has 500 champion points either gets 16 additional attribute and skill points at level 1 or at level 50? Then players would earn skill points and attribute points beyond that with champion points and they would be spread across characters as well.

I just simply disagree that's a solution. That seems terribly broken in my opinion. It does however seem serviceable. All post 50 characters progress together.... interesting concept.

Of course, ZOS just removing Vet Ranks is much more likely than my personal concept of post 50 progression, which is regular level cap increases not tied to DLC (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/199791/perpetual-independent-end-game-level-progression-concept/p1) and Champion Point becoming more of a currency than a progression means (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/219662/cp-active-passive-bar-cp-burn-concept/p1)

So, I wouldn't worry much.

Shadesofkin · November 2015

I'm always going to be firmly in the camp of "Nothing past 50". Once we hit 50, we're done with levels, period.

A system which would stop at 50 would have a shorter climb to the world of "endgame" giving players who just want to see what's there a chance to check it out more quickly, give players who wish to make alts a chance to level their alts more quickly and it would greatly reset the stupidly high power levels that the developers have had to nerf over and over as they increase Veteran ranks. Stats on gear were shifted down by more than a dozen points in some cases after Imperial City was released in order to make up for the fact that they've yet added another 2 Ranks to our overall total.

If we got rid of Veteran Ranks, not only would the Champion System feel like an actual method of progression, but it would be balanced against the base stats of a Level 50 Character and not the overwhelming power of a Veteran Rank 16 Character.

Maybe that's not every answer neatly done up for people, but I really do believe it is the correct answer.

That being said, I liked what you had, I don't want it by any means, but I like it.

ItsGlaive · November 2015

Gidorick wrote: »

and the 16 skill and attribute points @Xabien ?

I do like the idea of just opening up crafting at level 50. That would be a good way to congratulate the player for reaching level max.

The remaining skill points and attribute points can be distributed through a rebalancing of the current awards rates. For example, maybe for every three skyshards you get two points instead of one like it currently is? For attributes the same method - from lvl 34 have two awarded with every ding.

Ffastyl · November 2015

Glad we've come to an understanding @Gidorick

A disagreement, still, but an understanding.

One of my earlier, smaller points helps explain @Artjuh90 's view as well as what I believe is the larger concern with continually increasing the level cap:

Competitive Play

In non-competitive PvE the Devs can create whatever game they want and either we'll enjoy it or not. Take a look at the F2P game Fallout Shelter:

Despite everything players debase about F2P and P2W monetization that Fallout Shelter has, it was a huge success. That was because of the lack of competitive or player-versus-player elements. In a non-competitive environment, players aren't penalized in any way for joining the party late or being slower at progressing - there's no one to compete with but yourself.

ESO has competitive elements. Trials Leaderboards, Arena Leaderboards, PvP Leaderboards and straight up PvP. Losses in a competitive environment with a large power gap between level 1 and level cap are going to feel arbitrary.
"They won because they grinded the most CP"
"We can't be as good as them because we have lives"
"There's no way I can catch up"
These are the sentiments that make increasing the level cap such a hated idea. It becomes a question of whether you'll dedicate your entire life to the game or never be competitive, ultimately walking away.

Gidorick · November 2015

Xabien wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

and the 16 skill and attribute points @Xabien ?

I do like the idea of just opening up crafting at level 50. That would be a good way to congratulate the player for reaching level max.

The remaining skill points and attribute points can be distributed through a rebalancing of the current awards rates. For example, maybe for every three skyshards you get two points instead of one like it currently is? For attributes the same method - from lvl 34 have two awarded with every ding.

That could work. I could see something like every 8 levels you get extra points. I could be on board with that

madcow.3502 · November 2015

I have to say this has been one of the best post I have seen all week. It has some great points, most games tend to utilize the concept of a level 80 as max and then anything after as grinding champion points (different games have it under different names but the general idea is the same).
I do have one thing I would want to see in the future, having to rely on mod for a more refined game play as far as the UI goes becomes tedious as the game updates, the UI mods break. It would be nice to start seeing some implementation of the UI mods, ie. Maps, Quest Tracker, Basic health/mana/stam information.
I have currently hit a wall where I am at VR11 and attempting to complete Cadwell's Gold, however; the leveling is tedious and I am mostly solo playing as I cannot find anyone within my range that would join me.