Level 50-80: VR 1-16 Replacement. A New-ish Concept

Luffy

Gidorick wrote: »

But that's what it says @Vizier

Gidorick wrote: »

Lol. Too bad, so sad. Eh @Vizier.

hehe. I'm going to blame that one on my phone... yea... that's it. My phone.

it seems we are sort of on the same page. The biggest problem we have is content. people are doing the same stuff over and over and over again and to feel like you MUST do it to level creates an issue. I too do not want to see ESO lose players. This is partly the reason for my suggestion. As it stands right now, players are asked to gain about 10X the amount of XP for VR 2 as they are expected VR1, that's ridiculous. Many players will leave when they just seem to be stuck on Vet1 forever.

With my concept players would gain 5 levels during Vet 1, about 4 levels for vet 2, 4 for vet 3, 3 for vet 4 and so on and so forth. Players will "feel" like they are progressing when in reality they aren't progressing any more than they had previously.

It's all about that satisfaction of accomplishment. VR1 levels feel like grinds because there isn't enough content to make them feel rewarding and it takes to long to gain a level. The former is being worked on in the form of DLC, the latter isn't, as far as we know.

I do agree though... content needs to be worked on. Job one need to be content.

They should just remove the entire vet system, or at least lower the xp so that you are v14 by the end of silver, and have gold as optional. So many people quitting when they get to vet because the farm is just too much, and this is ruining the game, I can't see why Zenimax doesn't understand this and released the game on console without fixing the biggest issue of the game, which is these vet levels.

Luffy

The game is really popular now, it is like on top10 on twitch, but trust me, soon it will loose many players, because when they get to vet levels a large percentage will quit.

Gidorick

ZOs recently said on their Reddit AMA


" In terms of XP, we're actually buffing for some areas in the next major update. Specifically public dungeons and craglorn are being increased. Additionally we're increasing the XP that veteran level quests give so there's more of a parity between gains between questers and grinders. Lastly we're reducing the amount of XP required to get a veteran rank so players can get to the max level content sooner. "

So they ARE going to address the XP issues for Vet Ranks! Yay! But "Vet Ranks" seem to be here to stay.

sadownik

Gidorick wrote: »

ZOs recently said on their Reddit AMA


" In terms of XP, we're actually buffing for some areas in the next major update. Specifically public dungeons and craglorn are being increased. Additionally we're increasing the XP that veteran level quests give so there's more of a parity between gains between questers and grinders. Lastly we're reducing the amount of XP required to get a veteran rank so players can get to the max level content sooner. "

So they ARE going to address the XP issues for Vet Ranks! Yay! But "Vet Ranks" seem to be here to stay.

Ive heard that before, in almost exactly the same manner, so forgive me if i say bs untill i see it.

potirondb16_ESO

Currently, I'm not sure about some point regarding your idea. I kind of feel like a lot of people that veteran rank is part of something different not totally useful, and not totally useless. The point being that veteran system allow you to figure the whole experience of TESO without looking at level stagnation. Which is great from my perspective but totally frustrating once you start looking at what it truly is content wise.

Personally, I would remove the Veteran Level, without replacing it with some other kind of leveling system the reason being simple, once a game start with 80 or 55 or 60 level you can only wonder where it will end, and that could lead to frustration once you start it as a beginner.

But, while I stop looking at level progression pass level 50, I would start focus on character customization:

- Class evolution;

How I see it: There is a link between class that make them quite likely to be regroup in order to create some kind of new class. The linkage being seen in a wheel as follow: Nightblade -) Dragonknight -) Templar -) Sorcerer -) Nightblade.

How class evolution is done: Once you reach level 50, your normal character is pretty much define and can still be upgraded in their of ability and gear but only while reaching specific zone. What is different is that the second stage of the game start. Class conversion system. Each player is given the opportunity to improve his class through Advance Ability which are link to an XP bank.

Example: As a Nightblade, the advance ability system is giving me three option with different requirement link to those option.

First Option Transform Class into Shade (Pure Nightblade)

Requirement: Reach Max Level in the three class skill line
Reach Upgrade level 3 for each class skill line (2 500 000 XP/Each)
Convert at least one of the following weapon skill line (Bow/Dual Wield) (2 500 000 XP/Each)

Second Option Transform Class into Necromancer (Sorcerer + Nightblade)

Requirement: Reach Max level in two of the three class skill line
Reach Max level in Destruction and Restauration Staff
Reach Upgrade level 3 for Siphoning and Assassination ability
Convert Restauration Staff into Dark Magic Staff
Convert Destruction Staff into a specific Element
Maximum Mage Skill Line, Completion of the Mage Guild

Second Option Transform Class into Dark Knight (DragonKnight + Nightblade)

Requirement: Reach Max level in two of the three class skill line
Reach Max level in Sword and Shield and 2 Hand
Reach Upgrade level 3 for Siphoning and Stealth
Convert Weapon Shield into Superior Weapon/Shield
Convert Two Hand into a Specific Two Hand
Maximum Fighter Guild Skill line, Completion of the Fighter Guild,

Same would as well happen for a Sorcerer who wants to be a Necromancer only he would have to boost Summoning and Dark Rune for example + Specific Weapon.

This system would bring a new playstyle for each class, and lean toward more potential specialisation while still having this capacity to re-spec from 0. This system implies new Class, New Weapon Skill Line, and a long progression toward being the best of your kind. I also premise that player would be able to play with each other fairly earlier in the game and while some with more playtime could actually end up with a big advantage over beginner it would only be fair and would not impact on those with playtime restriction.

The possibility to get Xp week-end and/or specific quest reward would at that moment be upgraded and while this does not follow the very specific of the Elderscroll, this could be a fair adaptation for the MMO version since we will always have a limited range of ability that can be use at the same time, this type of conversion would lead toward new ways to gain acces to valuable reward.

From my perspective converting Veteran Xp into alternative ability XP would really enhance experience for any type of player and truly help getting new perspective over some content s

Number 2

As well, I would change how Cadwell's progression is working. It should no longer be seen as content expansion but as new and unreach content. Yup, once you reach Cadwell's you should be entering inside a new version of any of the three faction beginner zone, transform so that the gameplay, the objectives and the difficulty would be fit for veteran. Craglorn being from now on first Veteran beginner content.

Once that being said I kind of believe one of the most important aspect of Cadwell's progression should be to allow player access to other player from other faction. Linking the game player once level 50 is reach through PVE maybe in a system that would look as PVP

Thanks for reading

Gidorick

One of the core tenants of my concept is that the rate of progression should remain consistent after level 50. If ZOS were to keep the 13 million XP required for all post 50 ranks we would end up with about 30 more levels. ZOS has recently stated that they plan to lessen the XP required for each level.

If the rate of advancement remains consistent, players will reach level 64 after about 3 million more XP after level 50, or... at current level VR4.

would this be the too drastic a cut in end level ranks? If they allow us to level to Level 75, that would be approximately VR 9.

How far should ZOS reduce the VR grind?

Gidorick

I removed the Sub-Attribute stuff. I like the idea but it sort of muddied the concept.

[*]Sub-Attributes: Attribute points should continue to be awarded every other level, until level 67 then it will be every 3 levels. Players should unlock the Sub-Attributes for their players once they reach level 50. The maximum number of total attribute points that can be applied to the main attribute points of Magica, Health, and Stamina should be 50. All additional attribute points should be applied to sub-attributes.

The sub-attributes are as follows:

• Magica
  • Personality: Increase Magica Regen
  • Luck: Increase Spell Critical
  • Intelligence: Increase Spell Damage
• Health
  • Endurance: Increase Health Regen
  • Willpower: Increase Spell Resistance
  • Constitution: Increase Physical Resistance
• Stamina
  • Speed: Increase Stamina Regen
  • Agility: Increase Weapon Critical
  • Strength: Increase Weapon Damage

You will notice that Maximum Magica, Health, and Stamina cannot be increased using the sub-attributes.

Players should be able to, however, horde their attribute points until after level 50 and spend less on their main attribute points to have more for their sub attribute points, if they wish.

Players who reach level 80 and max out the main attributes with 50 points between them will then will have 13 points to distribute among the their sub-attributes. This advancement of Sub-attribute points will allow for a more granular post 50 leveling experience and

Rune_Relic

Vizier wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

What about the VR gear and recipes @Vizier? How are they going to handle those aspects of the game if they just remove vet ranks and call it a day? What about the 14 skill points and attribute points? should those be taken away from VR characters? Should other players just not be able to get those skill points and attribute points making it so that they will never, ever be able to be on equal ground?

It's not as simple as just removing Vet ranks, there are other aspects of the game that must be considered.

Shrug. ZoS has already said folks won't be losing skill points. Likely they will add some skill point rewards to the game accessible by characters without those 14 skill points but we'll see how they handle it. Gear can be scaled down accordingly. I'm not worried.

Only ZoS can say how they are going to handle it but they've already said veteran ranks are going to go away with the CP system assuming the role for character progression.

Don't fear the change. Embrace it. in the end it will be better for ESO IMO.

At the end of the day I have to agree with Vizier.
Everyone that has the top level gear if it was moved from V14 to 50 would still have the top level gear.
No one else would have better gear.
The only problem is original level 50 gear would also be quite good and effective.
ie A lot more people would be competitive.
But hows that any different to having lots more new players in the game ?
/shrugs.

But then judging by what ZOS did allowing Vet transfers to console.......instantly gimping all the new players...

Xandryah

Gidorick wrote: »

One of the core tenants of my concept is that the rate of progression should remain consistent after level 50. If ZOS were to keep the 13 million XP required for all post 50 ranks we would end up with about 30 more levels. ZOS has recently stated that they plan to lessen the XP required for each level.

If the rate of advancement remains consistent, players will reach level 64 after about 3 million more XP after level 50, or... at current level VR4.

would this be the too drastic a cut in end level ranks? If they allow us to level to Level 75, that would be approximately VR 9.

How far should ZOS reduce the VR grind?

I tend to agree a lot with this solution... ^^

also > every level should grant 1 CP , from the very start, every toon ...

P.S. also Gold and Silver Cadwell should be 100% optional.. i never liked the voices and the NPCs Cadwell and Sheogorath...the idea of giving the game a flavor of humor and craziness is ok, but the realisation with those 2 NPC i just can't help but not like it....

Gidorick

Hey @MaximusDargus. I saw you were talking about Vet Ranks being levels. Thought you might like this concept.

Rinmaethodain

So great, i love this infograph with new lvl progression

How is 'rising lvl cap' a problem? They rise the cap, they let people have higher lvl. Those who want it grind exp. Those who not just enjoy the game.

Just because some people dont want to have high lvl and grind for it, doesnt mean that every other player who likes gaining exp is stripped from this opportunity.

You dont want lvls? Dont grind but dont make other people lose opportunity to do so, and get appropriate rewards for their work.

k9mouse

IMHO, we should keep VR14 as max level, just reduced the XP to get them by a LOT! More or less, just VR14 away. For practical purposes, level 50 is the max level, but we just keeping the name of VR14 around. Thus, ZOS does NOT have to change, crafting, food / drink items, gear, stat / skills, etc.

Gidorick

If they implemented this concept WITH the whole VR 16 and considered the lowered XP... we would actually arrive at a level cap of 79, instead of 80.

Total XP that will be required to reach VR16 will be 15,046,964
Total XP to reach Level 79 in my above concept is 15,119,910

I still think changing VR to Levels is the best route to go AND to have gradually increasing level XP requirements is vital to avoiding the feeling of hitting a leveling wall.

Gidorick

I made some slight changes to reflect the upcoming VR 16 addition. Surprisingly, the extra 2 levels makes the conversion to level 80 a more direct conversion.

Gidorick

@TalonShina, check or my VR to Level conversion concept here to see how they would be different.

TalonShina

Gidorick wrote: »

@TalonShina, check or my VR to Level conversion concept here to see how they would be different.

Just read it a little I have to read more in depth a bit later, but on the surface i am on the fence about the idea.

nimander99

This is the only sort of solution I see for VR removal that won't completely destroy the game...

Gidorick

nimander99 wrote: »

This is the only sort of solution I see for VR removal that won't completely destroy the game...

And doing this would "save face" since they would still actually be removing Vet Ranks.

Tankqull

nimander99 wrote: »

This is the only sort of solution I see for VR removal that won't completely destroy the game...

but thats not a removement - just a relabling...

Waffennacht

If players don't wanna work to get there, I don't want them playing. A bunch of jerks that just picked up the game casually getting the same rewards as me? No way

Edit: so comp players get a year's head start and destroy economy, new players put in 1/3rd the work to get where I got? So just screw all console players that bought it in their first few months? That would make myself and a ton of vets quit

Gidorick

Waffennacht wrote: »

If players don't wanna work to get there, I don't want them playing. A bunch of jerks that just picked up the game casually getting the same rewards as me? No way

Edit: so comp players get a year's head start and destroy economy, new players put in 1/3rd the work to get where I got? So just screw all console players that bought it in their first few months? That would make myself and a ton of vets quit

What do you mean @Waffenknecht? This concept would preserve the effort that it would take to get to max-level. It would simply put in more progression steps so players FEEL like they are progressing more quickly.

Ffastyl

Tankqull wrote: »

but thats not a removement - just a relabling...

Which is why I disapprove of this idea.

Gidorick

Tankqull wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

This is the only sort of solution I see for VR removal that won't completely destroy the game...

but thats not a removement - just a relabling...

Yes, but it does change the progression significantly @Tankqull. Level progression would occur more naturally than it does now.

Ffastyl wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

but thats not a removement - just a relabling...

Which is why I disapprove of this idea.

Why @Ffastyl? You think just stopping leveling at level 50 is the way to go? What would be the benefit of that?

Ffastyl

It would prevent further numbers inflation.

Seeing a level cap at 50 is much nicer a level cap at 80, especially when so many other experience based lines in the game cap at 50. Switching to Level 80 would also mean more materials or spreading the current materials out over larger ranges - more bloating in crafting. Excess is nice in theory, messy in practice.

The Champion System also unlocks at the level cap, 50, and is intended to replace Veteran Ranks as progression beyond 50. Switching over to Level 80 defeats the purpose of that. Lost attribute and skill points can be scattered throughout the Champion System, unlocked at specified intervals (Every 50 points for illustration's sake).

Though, I would prefer the attribute points be removed. The Champion System released on top of the Veteran Ranks created a new power gap and spike - players can grow far more powerful than they could ever before. And I see that as a bad thing. Reducing the power gap between level 1 and level cap makes content less likely to be out-leveled and the grind to cap is all the shorter (competitive play is easier to enter into). Personally, I want as much of the game's content to remain challenging and relevant as possible at level cap. One of the nice things about Veteran Ranks is since you are technically Level 50, all Veteran Zones grant XP regardless of how over-ranked or under-ranked you are.

Skill points can be argued to be vertical progression, like attribute points, but I see them as horizontal progression since no matter how many skills you unlock and morph, only so many can be slotted. Barring passives, skill lines grant no vertical progression.


Think of the uproar when new Veteran Ranks were announced.

Gidorick

Ffastyl wrote: »

It would prevent further numbers inflation.

Seeing a level cap at 50 is much nicer a level cap at 80, especially when so many other experience based lines in the game cap at 50. Switching to Level 80 would also mean more materials or spreading the current materials out over larger ranges - more bloating in crafting. Excess is nice in theory, messy in practice.

The Champion System also unlocks at the level cap, 50, and is intended to replace Veteran Ranks as progression beyond 50. Switching over to Level 80 defeats the purpose of that. Lost attribute and skill points can be scattered throughout the Champion System, unlocked at specified intervals (Every 50 points for illustration's sake).

Though, I would prefer the attribute points be removed. The Champion System released on top of the Veteran Ranks created a new power gap and spike - players can grow far more powerful than they could ever before. And I see that as a bad thing. Reducing the power gap between level 1 and level cap makes content less likely to be out-leveled and the grind to cap is all the shorter (competitive play is easier to enter into). Personally, I want as much of the game's content to remain challenging and relevant as possible at level cap. One of the nice things about Veteran Ranks is since you are technically Level 50, all Veteran Zones grant XP regardless of how over-ranked or under-ranked you are.

Skill points can be argued to be vertical progression, like attribute points, but I see them as horizontal progression since no matter how many skills you unlock and morph, only so many can be slotted. Barring passives, skill lines grant no vertical progression.


Think of the uproar when new Veteran Ranks were announced.

But there's a problem with that @fastyl.

As I've asked previously in other threads, since Champion Points can be earned by pre-level 50 characters... how would that work? A player who has a vet 16 with 500 CP starts a new character. When that character reaches level 50... what then? Do they just then get 16 skill points and 16 attribute points? or are we now going to start monitoring which characters earn what CPs? Would that character earn CPs at the higher rate of players with fewer CPs or at the lower rate of players with many CPs?

ZOS could just remove the skill points and attribute points, but I imagine that would anger quite a few players.

Now I DO agree that the fact that all Vet Zones grant XP is a boon. I wish ZOS would let all zones give players XP, no matter their level, but that's another thread.

ItsGlaive

It's a very well thought out idea. But I've always preferred the idea of just reverting the cap to 50. At level 50, all of the zones open up and are equally levelled 50 (with lvl 50 mobs).

As for gear, there are three clear options - 1 is to elliminate VR crafting mats entirely, converting existing armours etc into the level 50 equivalent on login. 2 is to elliminate mid-tier crafting mats in a similar fashion - both of these approaches are to simplify and reduce the insane number of mat tiers we have. 3 is simply to redistribute the materials so they cover a smaller amount of levels each, keeping all of the mats in game.

Gidorick

and the 16 skill and attribute points @Xabien ?

I do like the idea of just opening up crafting at level 50. That would be a good way to congratulate the player for reaching level max.

Artjuh90

changing the name and making vet just levels isn't the problem the pvp community is crying about you totally missed the point with this idia

Gidorick

Artjuh90 wrote: »

changing the name and making vet just levels isn't the problem the pvp community is crying about you totally missed the point with this idia

Then what is the point @Artjuh90? I honestly thought it was the "grindy" feeling of Vet Ranks. Is there something else that makes people hate Vet Ranks?

BlackguardBob

I would have liked to have seen an extension given to the different classes at level 51.

Example: The Sorc would level 1 to 50 then at level 51 she could become an arcane archer for the rest of her career.

This would make use of stamina and magicka and create a new dimension for the Sorc.

If this branch in career did not suit the player then the Sorc could continue to level up as previously within the same class.

The NB could become a Rogue, the DK a half-dragon and the Templar a paladin or whatever.