craigvigneaultub17_ESO wrote: »

I just want to clear up some misinformation, when King Richard said he and sypher almost got 1vXed by a stam NB with "tons" of CP I actually only had 540 CP at the time which is roughly close to what sypher and KR had I'm pretty sure. I guess since I'm not in Legend, they felt they could just make up random things about me without even asking me personally . Either way, that fact really isn't a good argument for why NB is op, considering at the time sypher clearly didn't look to comfortable on his stam DK (which he learned quickly, to his credit) and KR appeared to be running a low sustain stam sorc build. Also, I didn't really almost 1vX them, I have 3.2k stam regen so I just rolled around and used shadow image a lot lol. Overall, it was an interesting podcast though, and I respect them for putting the effort in! Side note: if KR and sypher actually had way less than 540 CP, then I guess I did have a ton...and sorry for mentioning it The tourney was a fun event and I really appreciated the gold reward!

What he meant by almost 1vX'd us is you nearly killed me in full heavy armor / full health with 1 heavy attack ambush surprise combo. I reacted in time to save myself but the damage/sustain was off the charts. Sure you had a decent amount of CP compared to me, but in reality it is both a Stamina Nightblade issue and a CP issue.

Also we didn't make up anything about you. "Tons" of CP is relevant to each individual. We used that scenario as an example of how the CP system scales as the numbers go up and how Stamina Nightblades begin over preforming as you reach high CP #'s.

Having played stamina Nightblade I pointed out some issues with the class that makes these insane combos possible.

One of them being: Ambush doesn't pull you out of cloak ...

frozywozy wrote: »

Anyone with less than 360 CPs fighting someone with 360 or more CPs has a huge disadvantage because of the possibility to use the 120 passives and the more sustain you get.

Also, you are one of those guys who theorycrafted a way to use your character the same way people were playing back in 1.6 with the very low TTK. You kill people by bursting them down with massive damage in a fraction of seconds and with the broken cc break mechanic, the healing and the shield nerf, it is very hard to resist such high burst. You kill your oponent in a "one shot" move (ganking style). No offense, but this is not what I call a fair fight. In a fair fight, your oponent has a chance to recover from a combo you land on him, which is not happening when you do a 7k ambush into fear into 9k surprise attacks into 12k soul harvest all happening before your oponent even has time to cc break the fear. Doesn't even matter to prebuff with shuffle, hardened armor, vigor and rally with 24k health, with your damage, you kill someone in a matter of second.

First, they had more than 360 CP anyway, and I've been doing the same thing since I started pvping in 1.6 with 150 CP. Second, the only way people can't react to what I'm doing is if they have super low hp, or they break cc very slowly. Also I've never hit a 7k ambush, and as for those other numbers those have every possible buff applied (ambush empower, invis NB + wood elf dmg) on a target with no impen and have occurred only since they fixed the crit damage cp. My build will hit like a wet noodle if you are stacking crit resist, like max 4k surprise attacks. If you have ever dueled Ali Sabre you can see how powerful crit resistance is. I'm only running 3.1k wep damage, almost all of my damage is coming from simply weaving a fully charged heavy attack with a surprise/soul harvest, this combo is similar to the dk WB>Leap combo that does even more damage and has 2 ccs + aoe instead of just straight damage. I guarantee you if Lowpolicy re-rolled another faction and I dueled him I would have no chance in the world to kill him in one second.

Sypher wrote: »

What he meant by almost 1vX'd us is you nearly killed me in full heavy armor / full health with 1 heavy attack ambush surprise combo. I reacted in time to save myself but the damage/sustain was off the charts. Sure you had a decent amount of CP compared to me, but in reality it is both a Stamina Nightblade issue and a CP issue.

Also we didn't make up anything about you. "Tons" of CP is relevant to each individual. We used that scenario as an example of how the CP system scales as the numbers go up and how Stamina Nightblades begin over preforming as you reach high CP #'s.

Having played stamina Nightblade I pointed out some issues with the class that makes these insane combos possible.

One of them being: Ambush doesn't pull you out of cloak ...

Ok I understand your point, I guess I just didn't appreciate being talked about vaguely like that, where it sounded like I was Essa or Dark lol. If I almost bursted you that fast, everything crit and you were not wearing impen (or not enough). Nearly every spec in this game can have massive burst if you are cced. On magicka nb I can proxy>heavy attack (destro)> soul harvest for much more burst than I hit you with in that situation. On magicka dk/ you can proxy > leap >whip. Stam dk wrecking blow > leap. Sorc is obvious. Also, for my burst combo, I am charging a full heavy attack, and my sword is not weighted. All of the time people simply CC break and dodge the heavy attk/soul harvest because a heavy takes a noticeable amount of time to charge. It's the same thing as if you see a wrecking blow coming at you, you gotta dodge or avoid it. Also, both of you were stamina builds, you could have had caltrops and stood in them, or even popped a detect to completely nullify any cloak reliant burst. I know you know all this, and I'm not saying stam NB is weak at all. I think it's in a wonderful place, and I really think other specs should be brought up to par, not having NB toned down. I'm sure you notice most NBs in Cyrodiil are god awful even ones running with 4k+ weapon damage. This game is not a 1v1 game, and it shouldn't be balanced that way. Also, IMO CP is not even worth mentioning now, because of the cap and catch up mechanic. It's super easy to reach a competitive level of CP in a reasonable amount of time this patch. Sorry for rant

Edit: Just remember what happened to DK when people asked for nerfs...Also the toolip of ambush/lotus fan says "flash through the shadows" not "flash out of the shadows" so maybe it's intended. I don't think it's really a big deal, the main issue is all gap closers in general need tweaking, and ambush needs a minimum distance like others. Also toppling charge is undodgeable, that should be fixed.

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

People tout that guys as if he was really good? First time I've ever seen him, but all I saw in that video was the cc break reaction time of a sloth, talons, gap closer, whip, wings and standard on an absurdly op class...

I don't see anything special or extraordinarily talented about this player. Seriously I don't think he even swapped weapons once in that entire video.

It's hard to watch. I can't believe this is the game we all played for so long, or that people could even be impressed by this crap.

Please shut your face. Your ignorance is showing (again)

Murderthumbs was a freaking monster in a time when the metas were still being formed, no one understood all the core game mechanics and classes like we did today. Obviously nothing he did in that video would be possible were he not a DK but he also but together his build 100% by himself and a unique gearing setup crafted around that...and most of it was Blue!

blah blah blah...

Oh great and omniscient drink guzzling, overload spamming, ball of light using dork lord - I am truly sorry for dismissing your internet knight nerd idol. Not really, that dude was terrible. I played in 1.4 and I used, wait for it, all three of my bars. Gap close talons talons talons gap close talons talons talons standard. So good. So nostalgic. Really bro? Come back down to earth.

@frozywozy

I'm not saying stam nightblade is not better in 1v1, because unless you can get off the wrecking blow/leap combo you probably won't win with stam dk. You know what would be awesome is giving stam dk a stamina whip. They would instantly become the top stamina class. That being said, roll stam nightblade, and I'd love to do some duels, you might find yourself worse off then on your dk.

Also, I wasn't comparing wrecking blow with surprise attack. I was comparing the combination of skills which leads to this burst which you dislike. What I do is I charge up a full heavy attack, then animation cancel it with surprise. This will deal less damage then a dk doing WB>Leap, with both having similiar cast times. People often easily avoid my combo simply by dodging the heavy attack since it hits at the same time as surprise. If you use dual wield, flying blade will only hit about 1k less than surprise attack and it has long range! I play with people who when using it are just throwing around 8k flying blades. And if you are sword and board you can use ransack/heroic slash which hits about the same and you can bash cancel the animation to make up for the lost damage while gaining other buffs from those skills. Also, again I know stam nb is beast, but I would rather see other specs brought up to par. Always fun fighting you btw Frozn.

Great podcast. But you're fighting a fight you are not going to win. If the developer isn't going to respond or listen, and you've been vocal since beta...maybe it's time to move on?

I already posted a thread that IC is dead because it' has no objectives for pvp. How to solve it? In summary, transform the districts into different pvp modes. Each can hold a different mode... capture the flag, control, and domination, typical battleground pvp modes. This will give the small scale pvp players, such as those in the podcast, need instead of creating their own 'fight club' in some corner of Cyrodiil or in IC arena.

I'd recommend ZOS send over some of their leadership staff to Blizzard HQ and stay for a week. Ask how they pull off top notch pvp in a MMO.

Or....maybe those that are looking for real, supported, eSport pvp....go play WoW arena. It's the proven MMO PvP standard. Sure the mechanics are different in ESO and WoW, but it's much more difficult to manage WoW skills than the limited skills you can use in ESO. And the formula in WoW is proven and works. Blizzard provides pvp gear that is separate from pve, they balance the classes, and constantly support pvp. It's a eSport and you don't get into that sector without showing commitment to proper MMO pvp structure. Also, bringing home 1st place of $120k in this years Blizzcon isn't too shabby either for MMO pvp.

We all would love to see ESO get shaped into something that resembles what was promised. I just don't see it happening when the drive is just to make coin and cater to the casual player.

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

craigvigneaultub17_ESO wrote: »

Edit: Just remember what happened to DK when people asked for nerfs...Also the toolip of ambush/lotus fan says "flash through the shadows" not "flash out of the shadows" so maybe it's intended. I don't think it's really a big deal, the main issue is all gap closers in general need tweaking, and ambush needs a minimum distance like others. Also toppling charge is undodgeable, that should be fixed.

My god, this. just look at how much the DKs cry on these forums. nobody at any point in this games history has complained as much about their class as DKs do now. We don't need another repeat of that with nightblades or sorcs.

Nightblades and sorcs have never been as nerfed as DKs, magicka DKs in particular do. Which other class in the game can't relay on a class heal + a class gap closer other than stam DK?

Rust_in_Peace wrote: »

I'm not saying the complaints aren't warranted; I'm saying that the solution isn't just to nerf more classes and put nb and sorc into the same situation that dk's are in now.

I agree and disagree at the same time. For example, no matter how hard you can buff a class to be competitive with other classes, it won't change the fact that ambush spam can just ruin any chance you have playing a none nightblade class because of the mini stun which is not dodgeable compared to other gap closers.

Xeven wrote: »

Regarding the discussion on Sorc shield refresh. Sorcs can do nothing but spam Hardened Ward and mitigate 10k DPS while doing zero DPS in return.

Vigor - 12k heals. Rally - 9-15k Heals. These are HP heals that receive the full bonus from medium/heavy armor resistances. Stamina builds with Vigor and Rally have almost the same effective DPS mitigation. Every class when properly played is hard to kill in 1.7/1.8. If you rework Hardened Ward, you must also rework light armor and/or give magicka sorc something similar to the Rally/Vigor combo.

You completely forgot about Critical Surge- the strongest Sorc skill in the game. A ton of healing comes from crit surge, and this is healing while DPSing.

Xeven wrote: »

Regarding the discussion on Sorc shield refresh. Sorcs can do nothing but spam Hardened Ward and mitigate 10k DPS while doing zero DPS in return.

Vigor - 12k heals. Rally - 9-15k Heals. These are HP heals that receive the full bonus from medium/heavy armor resistances. Stamina builds with Vigor and Rally have almost the same effective DPS mitigation. Every class when properly played is hard to kill in 1.7/1.8. If you rework Hardened Ward, you must also rework light armor and/or give magicka sorc something similar to the Rally/Vigor combo.

Both rally and Vigor can be absolutely gutted by Heal Debuffs, Unless you want to talk about making Heal Debuffs cut Shields in half when ya cast them I don't think you should compare the two.

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Regarding the discussion on Sorc shield refresh. Sorcs can do nothing but spam Hardened Ward and mitigate 10k DPS while doing zero DPS in return.

Vigor - 12k heals. Rally - 9-15k Heals. These are HP heals that receive the full bonus from medium/heavy armor resistances. Stamina builds with Vigor and Rally have almost the same effective DPS mitigation. Every class when properly played is hard to kill in 1.7/1.8. If you rework Hardened Ward, you must also rework light armor and/or give magicka sorc something similar to the Rally/Vigor combo.

Both rally and Vigor can be absolutely gutted by Heal Debuffs, Unless you want to talk about making Heal Debuffs cut Shields in half when ya cast them I don't think you should compare the two.

Healdebuffs take away the 30% (and 8%) they´ve stated in their tooltip now as them being additive to the battlespirit debuff has been ninjafixed with some incremental patch after IC release. Nothings cut in half or gutted anymore - there´s hardly a point in using one if not for additional effects (as any class relying on heals can easily purge the healdebuff).

As on shields: I agree they need serious looking at (specifically stacking them) - however the solution stated on the stream was garbage imho bc of reasons i´ve layed out on page 25 of this topic.

Edit: Imho the best solution still would be to entirely rework harness magica and for healing ward make the inital heal scale (for the other morph only the shield casted on an ally) instead of the shield.

As someone who uses Heal Debuffs extensively, I can tell you right now a 30% heal debuff (Plus apparently an extra 15% from disease status effects, though that's hard to actually test) is nothing to sneeze at...There is a reason you see virtually every melee stamina build running Reverb Bash right now...and its not because of its CC. Healing debuffs absolutely gut Rally and Vigor right now...

Also saying you can purge it also a little generous, since basically only Efficient Purge and Templar one will really get rid of it, EP is incredibly expensive for a stamina build, and i'm honestly not certain about the Templar one.

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Regarding the discussion on Sorc shield refresh. Sorcs can do nothing but spam Hardened Ward and mitigate 10k DPS while doing zero DPS in return.

Vigor - 12k heals. Rally - 9-15k Heals. These are HP heals that receive the full bonus from medium/heavy armor resistances. Stamina builds with Vigor and Rally have almost the same effective DPS mitigation. Every class when properly played is hard to kill in 1.7/1.8. If you rework Hardened Ward, you must also rework light armor and/or give magicka sorc something similar to the Rally/Vigor combo.

Both rally and Vigor can be absolutely gutted by Heal Debuffs, Unless you want to talk about making Heal Debuffs cut Shields in half when ya cast them I don't think you should compare the two.

Healdebuffs take away the 30% (and 8%) they´ve stated in their tooltip now as them being additive to the battlespirit debuff has been ninjafixed with some incremental patch after IC release. Nothings cut in half or gutted anymore - there´s hardly a point in using one if not for additional effects (as any class relying on heals can easily purge the healdebuff).

As on shields: I agree they need serious looking at (specifically stacking them) - however the solution stated on the stream was garbage imho bc of reasons i´ve layed out on page 25 of this topic.

Edit: Imho the best solution still would be to entirely rework harness magica and for healing ward make the inital heal scale (for the other morph only the shield casted on an ally) instead of the shield.

As someone who uses Heal Debuffs extensively, I can tell you right now a 30% heal debuff (Plus apparently an extra 15% from disease status effects, though that's hard to actually test) is nothing to sneeze at...There is a reason you see virtually every melee stamina build running Reverb Bash right now...and its not because of its CC. Healing debuffs absolutely gut Rally and Vigor right now...

Also saying you can purge it also a little generous, since basically only Efficient Purge and Templar one will really get rid of it, EP is incredibly expensive for a stamina build, and i'm honestly not certain about the Templar one.

The reason people run reverb bash is to spam it without remorse because it´s cc component bugs you out more often than not (i can tell you because people spam it on shields too for said effect - apart from there is no reason to spam it at all other than the questionable cc mechanic).

Since the changes to status effects (showing how often the disease healdebuff actually proccs) i don´t even use them anymore as the chance it too low and random to actually benefit from it.

Would i use a healdebuff if i could access one - most likely. Are they as powerful as you´re making them out to be? Well i summon @Yuke to tell you why he´s not even considering reverb bash in his build and does not take too much issues in healdebuffs even though he´s not running 2h on his dk.
Or in short: No.

Xeven wrote: »

I could get behind a shield debuff, but id like to see stacking and shield breaker removed first.

Shield breaker was a silly method in the first place to deal with a balance issue.

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Regarding the discussion on Sorc shield refresh. Sorcs can do nothing but spam Hardened Ward and mitigate 10k DPS while doing zero DPS in return.

Vigor - 12k heals. Rally - 9-15k Heals. These are HP heals that receive the full bonus from medium/heavy armor resistances. Stamina builds with Vigor and Rally have almost the same effective DPS mitigation. Every class when properly played is hard to kill in 1.7/1.8. If you rework Hardened Ward, you must also rework light armor and/or give magicka sorc something similar to the Rally/Vigor combo.

Both rally and Vigor can be absolutely gutted by Heal Debuffs, Unless you want to talk about making Heal Debuffs cut Shields in half when ya cast them I don't think you should compare the two.

Healdebuffs take away the 30% (and 8%) they´ve stated in their tooltip now as them being additive to the battlespirit debuff has been ninjafixed with some incremental patch after IC release. Nothings cut in half or gutted anymore - there´s hardly a point in using one if not for additional effects (as any class relying on heals can easily purge the healdebuff).

As on shields: I agree they need serious looking at (specifically stacking them) - however the solution stated on the stream was garbage imho bc of reasons i´ve layed out on page 25 of this topic.

Edit: Imho the best solution still would be to entirely rework harness magica and for healing ward make the inital heal scale (for the other morph only the shield casted on an ally) instead of the shield.

As someone who uses Heal Debuffs extensively, I can tell you right now a 30% heal debuff (Plus apparently an extra 15% from disease status effects, though that's hard to actually test) is nothing to sneeze at...There is a reason you see virtually every melee stamina build running Reverb Bash right now...and its not because of its CC. Healing debuffs absolutely gut Rally and Vigor right now...

Also saying you can purge it also a little generous, since basically only Efficient Purge and Templar one will really get rid of it, EP is incredibly expensive for a stamina build, and i'm honestly not certain about the Templar one.

The reason people run reverb bash is to spam it without remorse because it´s cc component bugs you out more often than not (i can tell you because people spam it on shields too for said effect - apart from there is no reason to spam it at all other than the questionable cc mechanic).

Since the changes to status effects (showing how often the disease healdebuff actually proccs) i don´t even use them anymore as the chance it too low and random to actually benefit from it.

Would i use a healdebuff if i could access one - most likely. Are they as powerful as you´re making them out to be? Well i summon @Yuke to tell you why he´s not even considering reverb bash in his build and does not take too much issues in healdebuffs even though he´s not running 2h on his dk.
Or in short: No.

What? No, they run it because heal debuff, and you use it on people with shields because they're 99% of the time going to be using Healing Ward to heal themselves which is effected by the Heal Debuff.

Also why would you not use Disease anymore for healing debuffs? They bloody increased the primary means of getting it by a metric ton, Disease Weapon Procs now have a 20% chance to proc their status effect, which is a 7.5 second Heal Debuff. There is absolutely every reason to use it.

If you're not using 1hd Shield / 2hander on a DK, you're using 2hander/Bow.. and if you're using 1hd/shield you're going to use heal debuff like reverb bash most of the time.

IIRC it can only proc on enchant procs, which means its a 20% chance on a 5 second cooldown IF you're weaving light attacks religiously. Id be willing to bet testing would show a very low uptime on this particular debuff.

Erondil wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

People tout that guys as if he was really good? First time I've ever seen him, but all I saw in that video was the cc break reaction time of a sloth, talons, gap closer, whip, wings and standard on an absurdly op class...

I don't see anything special or extraordinarily talented about this player. Seriously I don't think he even swapped weapons once in that entire video.

It's hard to watch. I can't believe this is the game we all played for so long, or that people could even be impressed by this crap.

Please shut your face. Your ignorance is showing (again)

Murderthumbs was a freaking monster in a time when the metas were still being formed, no one understood all the core game mechanics and classes like we did today. Obviously nothing he did in that video would be possible were he not a DK but he also but together his build 100% by himself and a unique gearing setup crafted around that...and most of it was Blue!

blah blah blah...

Oh great and omniscient drink guzzling, overload spamming, ball of light using dork lord - I am truly sorry for dismissing your internet knight nerd idol. Not really, that dude was terrible. I played in 1.4 and I used, wait for it, all three of my bars. Gap close talons talons talons gap close talons talons talons standard. So good. So nostalgic. Really bro? Come back down to earth.

Wow man, you're ego is so big while in fact you have no clue what you're talking about. In 1.4 the game had 6 months already, and it had already completely changed compared to 1.0/1.1 (in 1.0 the regen softcaps were around 80 at vr10 and sets gave only 1 bonus. Not comparable to the 130 regen of 1.4 and all the kewl sets with 4 bonuses). After 6 months most of people had already learnt to play the game, people knew most of mechanics and the "good builds" were known by everybody. No I'm sorry man, you can't compare that to the first month of the game when people were playing dk with resto staf+bow and heavy armour, a time you never knew but you seem to consider yourself much better to all the guys who found out how the game was working. No one told to them, nor showed them as people showed to you in 1.4.
I don't know how it was back in 1.0 on NA server, but in EU the weapon swap was not reliable at all (mainly because EU servers were located in NA until june I believe), at least 2-3 secs to swap bar. So yeah people were making build that only needed one bar, particularly builds 1vXY orienteds. Doesnt mean they were bad nor their build was easy to play.
You're so ignorant, never played until 1.4, and yet you've such a big ego... Come back down to earth.

My ego is no bigger than anyone elses on this forum. I can only view that video through the eyes of someone who started playing in 1.4. I know what I saw though. Gap closer and talons. That was literally the whole video and Im not even exaggerating.

If that's how it was in beta, then Im glad I wasn't around for it. If you think this game is so deep that anyone who was already min maxing much more complicated games 10 years ago couldn't figure this one out, then you're dreaming sweet little beta tester dreams and maybe your ego needs a reality check too.

Hey nerds; chill the heck out.