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Should Sorc shields scale of health?
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No...nordickittyhawk wrote: »I just like to add with all you ladies n gents debating on the subject (those keeping it mature thank you very much) please do not insult, tell people to l2p or claiming this player wants a nerf as he voted yes or has diagrement on shield stacking. Please understand people are debating here. iv recived alot comments people claiming i want sorcs nerfed where in the title of the post does it say nerf... it was a question for people to debate on keep it civil please and thank you.
Lol. "I want shield strength to be scaling off HP not magicka, but I'm not calling for a nerf".
If you can't see why that would be nerf after 12 pages of explanations then you either have very severe comprehension issues or lying about your intentions. That's not a matter of opinion, that's fact.
If the reality offends you, you need to have a word with yourself. You can't expect to call spade a hammer and not be called out for it.EU | PC | AD1 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...My prediction for the next nerf is definitely sorcs. Would rather buff the other ones but it seems nerfs is the blanket fix. No class should have no apparent weakness. Not only do sorcs have ridiculously high damage, they have ridiculous survivability, and ridiculous mobility. It's a joke.
Seems the game plan is to try and burst the opponent down (with a three load out bar, thanks to a ridiculous ultimate that make light attacks hit for 7-10k lol). If that fails then reapply all those shields and try again. If all else fails then bolt away, which can't be caught if the sorc has any common sense. Seems fair.
Not to mention they have pets that they can hide behind. Oh and one that heals a good freaking chunk of health. Rather they use them or not, it's still a nice option to have.
So OP ultimates, damage, damage mitigation, survivability, mobiltity, CC, and passives. UP(underpowered btw, nothing a sorcerer knows anything about lol)???
But yeah let's focus on wrecking blow and cloak.
your prediction is probably gonna be wrong. If any class is getting a nerf, it's gonna be nightblades. if sorcs get another nerf, then *** it, eveyone might as well just give up and reroll nightblade.
They've already said nightblades are getting a cloak nerf.
But they also mentioned a class rebalance early next year so I would wager sorcs are getting it too.
Not likely. There are soo many counters to sorcs. we are not even close to as OP as people seem to think we are. to make a sorc as effective as the ones all you are complaining about takes alot of time, theory crafting gearing and just straight up knowing your class and how to use it most effectively. all these things are apparently a big no no to most tho.Invictus0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
and? a templar can stack up 14-18k (depending on shield picked) while having 11k crit instant heals (even though its the only ruptable instant in this game WTF ZOS?!? - when not animation canceled :P)spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
and? a templar can stack up 14-18k (depending on shield picked) while having 11k crit instant heals (even though its the only ruptable instant in this game WTF ZOS?!? - when not animation canceled :P)
Really? Most I can get is a 5k harness magicka, which we have to use due to you know, not getting the huge cost reduction and flat rexovery passives that sorcerers get . We also miss out on 10%odd spell damage (so about 350-400 at End game ) thanks to not having a spell damage buff.
Sorcerers can get ONE single shield to 15k, I've seen sorcerers running round with a total of 20k+ shields. That's just plain broken.
Oh and someone tell me the counter to a sorc bolt escaping 4 times in a row? Am I supposed to sprint towards them half way across the map so they can just stun me and continue bolting?0 -
DUTCH_REAPER✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
and? a templar can stack up 14-18k (depending on shield picked) while having 11k crit instant heals (even though its the only ruptable instant in this game WTF ZOS?!? - when not animation canceled :P)
Really? Most I can get is a 5k harness magicka, which we have to use due to you know, not getting the huge cost reduction and flat rexovery passives that sorcerers get . We also miss out on 10%odd spell damage (so about 350-400 at End game ) thanks to not having a spell damage buff.
Sorcerers can get ONE single shield to 15k, I've seen sorcerers running round with a total of 20k+ shields. That's just plain broken.
Oh and someone tell me the counter to a sorc bolt escaping 4 times in a row? Am I supposed to sprint towards them half way across the map so they can just stun me and continue bolting?
They get one shield cuz they are generally squishy and need to stack magica to be competitive. (My bud is a sorc and he is a beast. But he ain't unkillable as I have rezd him up plenty of times)
Streaking away is a perfectly acceptable tactic. Things get to hot? Bounce out and reset. Just like NBs do. Want to catch a streaking sorc as a non NB? Invasion, retreating maneuver, crit Rush shoot man their are lots of gap closers if you don't like or use those. Use a mobility potion or check your class skills.
Nothing against you man. I'm just tired of the nerfn ZOS has been doing due to people thinking they should slaughter every person they cross in Cryodil. Fact of the matter is it ain't gonna happen.
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ArvenAldmeri✭✭✭✭✭No...FriedEggSandwich wrote: »Cloak OP. (sarcasm)
I think it should, but then sorc shields would be crap, as they have to go heavy into mana to make their core abilities work. its a tricky issue. A conundrum perhaps?
Or, ZOS could fix the shield stacking issue in general without messing with one class. Make spells scale off of spell damage and not the amount of mana one can have, same with stamina. The main reason why shield stacking is an issue(imo anyway) is that a player can use damage shields to amass a 2nd health bar, AND still have high offense. Linking shield power to its corresponding "Damage type
so to speak, would force people using shields to choose between high offense and high defense, not have both at once. you can have high offence with high spell power, but your resources would be low, preventing spamming. The game of course would have to be redesigned in certain areas to make this relationship work.... so idk:( Only brainstorming of course
you should add a "neutral" button. My hatred of shield stacking, combined with the fact I try to avoid calling for a class nerf, makes choosing a side on this poll a bit unfair for me. but oh well, i have choosen
Currently the potency of sorcs damaging skills scale off both max magicka and spell damage, but the potency of hardened ward only scales off max magicka. If you made hardened ward scale off spell damage instead then stacking spell damage would still give you high offence and defense. If anything this would help sorcs out as most already stack spell damage; max magicka builds are unusual in pvp. With 33k magicka my class ward is only 9.6k in cyrodiil, nowhere near the size of my health pool.
How do you get the same shield as me while I have 37k magicka in Cyro and 100 points in bastion? xD I feel like my character is broken somehow xDMagicka sorcerer from start until the end. Always. Through the good times and the bad, even now when its probably saddest PvE dps it has ever been.
Even as an owner of one radiant apex mounts I am against radiant apex mounts and anything thats not obtainable by direct purchase.0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No...FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
and? a templar can stack up 14-18k (depending on shield picked) while having 11k crit instant heals (even though its the only ruptable instant in this game WTF ZOS?!? - when not animation canceled :P)
Really? Most I can get is a 5k harness magicka, which we have to use due to you know, not getting the huge cost reduction and flat rexovery passives that sorcerers get . We also miss out on 10%odd spell damage (so about 350-400 at End game ) thanks to not having a spell damage buff.
Sorcerers can get ONE single shield to 15k, I've seen sorcerers running round with a total of 20k+ shields. That's just plain broken.
Oh and someone tell me the counter to a sorc bolt escaping 4 times in a row? Am I supposed to sprint towards them half way across the map so they can just stun me and continue bolting?
Sorcs get 5% magicka and stam cost reduction and 10% magicka regen. Templars get 4% magicka and stam cost reduction.
Sorcs get 15% ult cost redcution. Templars get 4% and another 3 ult every 6 seconds.
Sorcs get 2% spell and weapon damage for every Sorc ability slotted. Templar gets 6% weapon damage with the need to slot anything.
Then there's a few other passives on both sides. You mentioned Sorc regen passives, so there is 20% health and stam regen when you have a summoning ability slotted.
Then for the Sorc there is left Disintegration (6% chance for execute when dealing shock dmg on low hp target), Blood Magic (8%, 4% in PvP, of max hp restored when you hit someone with dark magic) and Exploitation (minor spell crit group buff when using dark magic skills).
Templar on the other hand has 10% increased dmg on crits and against blocking targets, 15% increased blocking dmg reduction vs melee and flat 2000 spell resistance.
Templar also has Burning Light (25% chance when hitting an enemy with Aedric Spear abilities to deal extra dmg scaling with spell/wpn dmg), Master Ritualis (20% rez speed, rez targets with full hp, 50% to get soulgem back) and Illuminate (minor spell dmg group buff when activating dawn's wrath skills).
If you now take into account that Templar has much more useable resource management skills (Repentance and Restoring Focus vs Dark Exchange) it looks pretty balanced to me.
Edit: To answer the rest of your post: As @Ezareth has pointed out multiple times now, no one but an emperor reaches a 15k hardened Ward in Cyrodiil.
As for counters to bolt spamming: As stam build, sprinting with a speed buff and you'll catch him in a while unless he reaches a safe position. Gap closers are always the best counter, but you need to stay in range ofc. Snares are super annoying (Flying Blade or Trapping Webs for example), even if the Sorc is using Shuffle or Purge it costs valuable time, only Retreating Maneuver is a reliable counter to that counter. Roots are very underestimated against a Bolt Escaping Sorc, too, it slows them down a lot. If a Sorc continues to spam Bolt Escape while you use those counters effectively, he will die because he is spending too much magicka.Edited by ToRelax on November 9, 2015 5:18PMDAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'FriedEggSandwich wrote: »Darnathian wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Just wanted to pop in again and remind you all that it is Annulment + its morphs that make Sorcerers unbalanced atm, not Hardened Ward. Leave Hardened Ward alone and let's talk about how any competent sorc can always burst or tank any other magicka build (other than sorcs) by using Harness/Dampen on top of Hardened Ward, if they can't they need to go practice and try again when they've improved. Either that or use the catch-up system to get enough CP's into Bastion.
Annulment is making sorcs unbalanced, granted exclusively vs magicka builds, but that is still a balance issue. Obviously stamina builds can deal with the shield stack, why would anyone want to make stamina builds bursting sorcs easy-mode? (don't answer that one) Let's deal with the easy-mode switch we have already, which is trololololol Triple H's romping around slamming chairs into other magicka users with little to no risk to themselves. (Hardened + Harness + Healing)
I'm not even totally against shield-stacking, I'm just for any solution to the problem of sorcs being way too tanky vs other magicka builds (without sacrificing damage for that tankiness). If that means shields should be placed on a minor/major system or override one another, I'm for it.
Finally someone on topic who is making some sort of sense.
I'm completely fine with Annulment no longer stacking with Hardened ward because both last for 20 seconds and can be pre-applied and offer too much magical protection for too cheap of a cost against any player running a magicka build.
Healing ward is another story and I have no problem with that stacking with Hardened ward or annulment since it only lasts 4 seconds.
I may be missing something but why the disparity when it comes to the length of time shields last? My initial thoughts is the should All be the same time. Why 20s for a SORC and 6 for blazing shield?
Again I am asking as I may have missed something.
Blazing shield does damage on dispel depending on how much was absorbed afaik, I guess if it lasted longer it would absorb more damage and then do more damage? It's been a while since I played my templar. Reducing hardened ward to 10 seconds wouldn't have a huge effect on it's effectiveness imo; when taking damage from even one source it's very unlikely to last 10 seconds.
Blazing Shield does damage based upon the shield size. When the shield expires, it explodes in close pbaoe damage doing 50% of the shield in damage. In pvp this is halved. Bear in mind it gets halved twice in pvp, once for the damage shield nerf, once for the damage nerf. What this means is that all Blazing Shield can do is tickle, and only then when the opposing player decides to fight in melee range. It does low level magic damage, which is also generally highly resisted, so its actual damage output is also pretty low. The other morph does pretty pathetic damage regardless, but gives 1% more shield per target hit when activated. At any regard it wouldn't do more damage if it lasted longer, in any appreciable amount. This would have been the cast in times past, but nowadays one strike knocks the shield down and sends the pulse of damage out immediately. Its pretty close to a waste of magicka for what it gives.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
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<And plenty more>1 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...ArvenAldmeri wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »Cloak OP. (sarcasm)
I think it should, but then sorc shields would be crap, as they have to go heavy into mana to make their core abilities work. its a tricky issue. A conundrum perhaps?
Or, ZOS could fix the shield stacking issue in general without messing with one class. Make spells scale off of spell damage and not the amount of mana one can have, same with stamina. The main reason why shield stacking is an issue(imo anyway) is that a player can use damage shields to amass a 2nd health bar, AND still have high offense. Linking shield power to its corresponding "Damage type
so to speak, would force people using shields to choose between high offense and high defense, not have both at once. you can have high offence with high spell power, but your resources would be low, preventing spamming. The game of course would have to be redesigned in certain areas to make this relationship work.... so idk:( Only brainstorming of course
you should add a "neutral" button. My hatred of shield stacking, combined with the fact I try to avoid calling for a class nerf, makes choosing a side on this poll a bit unfair for me. but oh well, i have choosen
Currently the potency of sorcs damaging skills scale off both max magicka and spell damage, but the potency of hardened ward only scales off max magicka. If you made hardened ward scale off spell damage instead then stacking spell damage would still give you high offence and defense. If anything this would help sorcs out as most already stack spell damage; max magicka builds are unusual in pvp. With 33k magicka my class ward is only 9.6k in cyrodiil, nowhere near the size of my health pool.
How do you get the same shield as me while I have 37k magicka in Cyro and 100 points in bastion? xD I feel like my character is broken somehow xD
I now have 35k magicka and 77cp in bastion and my cyro hardened ward is 10.1k. Difference between 77cp in bastion and 100cp is about 5% I think, but your ward should still be bigger than mine.
Edit: I also have 12cp each in hardy and elemental defender. I heard they affected wards in some way but not exactly sure how.Edited by FriedEggSandwich on November 9, 2015 5:40PMPC | EU0 -
Dyride✭✭✭✭✭No...No, but they should reduce the boost to Hardened Ward to only +25%.V Є H Є M Є И C Є
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FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...No, but they should reduce the boost to Hardened Ward to only +25%.
There are low cp players with only a 6k hardened ward in cyrodiil. Doing what you suggest would only really hurt them. If hardened ward is ever tweaked it should be to how it scales with cp, or the amount is scales with large magicka pools, it doesn't need any nerfs to it's base stats.Edited by FriedEggSandwich on November 9, 2015 5:46PMPC | EU0 -
nordickittyhawk✭✭✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »I just like to add with all you ladies n gents debating on the subject (those keeping it mature thank you very much) please do not insult, tell people to l2p or claiming this player wants a nerf as he voted yes or has diagrement on shield stacking. Please understand people are debating here. iv recived alot comments people claiming i want sorcs nerfed where in the title of the post does it say nerf... it was a question for people to debate on keep it civil please and thank you.
Lol. "I want shield strength to be scaling off HP not magicka, but I'm not calling for a nerf".
If you can't see why that would be nerf after 12 pages of explanations then you either have very severe comprehension issues or lying about your intentions. That's not a matter of opinion, that's fact.
If the reality offends you, you need to have a word with yourself. You can't expect to call spade a hammer and not be called out for it.
Its a question is people like you that see it as a nerf n start a fire. The fourms are so toxic about subjects like this because no one can treat is maturely.
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zornyan✭✭✭✭✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
and? a templar can stack up 14-18k (depending on shield picked) while having 11k crit instant heals (even though its the only ruptable instant in this game WTF ZOS?!? - when not animation canceled :P)
Really? Most I can get is a 5k harness magicka, which we have to use due to you know, not getting the huge cost reduction and flat rexovery passives that sorcerers get . We also miss out on 10%odd spell damage (so about 350-400 at End game ) thanks to not having a spell damage buff.
Sorcerers can get ONE single shield to 15k, I've seen sorcerers running round with a total of 20k+ shields. That's just plain broken.
Oh and someone tell me the counter to a sorc bolt escaping 4 times in a row? Am I supposed to sprint towards them half way across the map so they can just stun me and continue bolting?
Sorcs get 5% magicka and stam cost reduction and 10% magicka regen. Templars get 4% magicka and stam cost reduction.
Sorcs get 15% ult cost redcution. Templars get 4% and another 3 ult every 6 seconds.
Sorcs get 2% spell and weapon damage for every Sorc ability slotted. Templar gets 6% weapon damage with the need to slot anything.
Then there's a few other passives on both sides. You mentioned Sorc regen passives, so there is 20% health and stam regen when you have a summoning ability slotted.
Then for the Sorc there is left Disintegration (6% chance for execute when dealing shock dmg on low hp target), Blood Magic (8%, 4% in PvP, of max hp restored when you hit someone with dark magic) and Exploitation (minor spell crit group buff when using dark magic skills).
Templar on the other hand has 10% increased dmg on crits and against blocking targets, 15% increased blocking dmg reduction vs melee and flat 2000 spell resistance.
Templar also has Burning Light (25% chance when hitting an enemy with Aedric Spear abilities to deal extra dmg scaling with spell/wpn dmg), Master Ritualis (20% rez speed, rez targets with full hp, 50% to get soulgem back) and Illuminate (minor spell dmg group buff when activating dawn's wrath skills).
If you now take into account that Templar has much more useable resource management skills (Repentance and Restoring Focus vs Dark Exchange) it looks pretty balanced to me.
Edit: To answer the rest of your post: As @Ezareth has pointed out multiple times now, no one but an emperor reaches a 15k hardened Ward in Cyrodiil.
As for counters to bolt spamming: As stam build, sprinting with a speed buff and you'll catch him in a while unless he reaches a safe position. Gap closers are always the best counter, but you need to stay in range ofc. Snares are super annoying (Flying Blade or Trapping Webs for example), even if the Sorc is using Shuffle or Purge it costs valuable time, only Retreating Maneuver is a reliable counter to that counter. Roots are very underestimated against a Bolt Escaping Sorc, too, it slows them down a lot. If a Sorc continues to spam Bolt Escape while you use those counters effectively, he will die because he is spending too much magicka.
Sorcerers also get 10% magicka regen for nothing, they don't need to slot a skill for it, we do, radiant aura is useless, since it is the same buff as potions so is jegated, where as a sorcerers buffs stack with potions.
So essentially a sorcerer slots bound armor and gets
8% max magicka
Minor armor and spell resist passives
2% spell damage
20% health and stam regen
10% magicka regen
A templar slots
Repentance
Mage light
5% max magicka
10% regen passives
10% crit.
Hardly balanced. Not to mention the 6% weapon damage buff is uselsss to a magicka build, yet sorcerer buff gives them both weapon AND spell power.
It takes us 3 slots, one require double bar and one back bar to get half the regen of a sorc passives, and less magicks, and less spell power. It also means we don't get our regen passives 50% of the time due to being on one bar only.
Edited by zornyan on November 9, 2015 6:17PM0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
20k worth of shields are again an example of stacking shields WHICH NOBODY in this topic is defending.
But going that route would be the same as stating a nerf to breath of life is needed be cause the person can at the same time be healed by rapid regen and healing springs... Does not make much sense does it?
The sorc class shield being more effective than healing is debateable atleast for templars. Combined with their other abilities it´s way harder for me to take down a templar than to take down a sorc (who does NOT stack hardened + harness). Heals also come with the benefit of not being exclusive to your character. I think shields SHOULD be stronger than heals in a 1v1 situation when directly compared (as stated templar for example has other lovely abilities that synergise well with their healing) because heals actually are able to keep your grp alive. A sorc can only shield themself.
Not true. It has already been pointed out in this thread on how to heal yourself. It's just not convenient for a sorc who doesn't want to mess with their bars or lose some damage. Use a restro staff like everyone else.
I agree though. The class shield may be fine. Won't be able to tell for sure though until shield stacking is removed.Edited by Darnathian on November 9, 2015 8:32PM0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭My prediction for the next nerf is definitely sorcs. Would rather buff the other ones but it seems nerfs is the blanket fix. No class should have no apparent weakness. Not only do sorcs have ridiculously high damage, they have ridiculous survivability, and ridiculous mobility. It's a joke.
Seems the game plan is to try and burst the opponent down (with a three load out bar, thanks to a ridiculous ultimate that make light attacks hit for 7-10k lol). If that fails then reapply all those shields and try again. If all else fails then bolt away, which can't be caught if the sorc has any common sense. Seems fair.
Not to mention they have pets that they can hide behind. Oh and one that heals a good freaking chunk of health. Rather they use them or not, it's still a nice option to have.
So OP ultimates, damage, damage mitigation, survivability, mobiltity, CC, and passives. UP(underpowered btw, nothing a sorcerer knows anything about lol)???
But yeah let's focus on wrecking blow and cloak.
your prediction is probably gonna be wrong. If any class is getting a nerf, it's gonna be nightblades. if sorcs get another nerf, then *** it, eveyone might as well just give up and reroll nightblade.
They've already said nightblades are getting a cloak nerf.
But they also mentioned a class rebalance early next year so I would wager sorcs are getting it too.
Not likely. There are soo many counters to sorcs. we are not even close to as OP as people seem to think we are. to make a sorc as effective as the ones all you are complaining about takes alot of time, theory crafting gearing and just straight up knowing your class and how to use it most effectively. all these things are apparently a big no no to most tho.
Come on man. No it doesn't. Everyone is following the same build still nothing has changed. Stack everything into mad magicka and 100 into bastion. That is not difficult.1 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
and? a templar can stack up 14-18k (depending on shield picked) while having 11k crit instant heals (even though its the only ruptable instant in this game WTF ZOS?!? - when not animation canceled :P)
Really? Most I can get is a 5k harness magicka, which we have to use due to you know, not getting the huge cost reduction and flat rexovery passives that sorcerers get . We also miss out on 10%odd spell damage (so about 350-400 at End game ) thanks to not having a spell damage buff.
Sorcerers can get ONE single shield to 15k, I've seen sorcerers running round with a total of 20k+ shields. That's just plain broken.
Oh and someone tell me the counter to a sorc bolt escaping 4 times in a row? Am I supposed to sprint towards them half way across the map so they can just stun me and continue bolting?
They get one shield cuz they are generally squishy and need to stack magica to be competitive. (My bud is a sorc and he is a beast. But he ain't unkillable as I have rezd him up plenty of times)
Streaking away is a perfectly acceptable tactic. Things get to hot? Bounce out and reset. Just like NBs do. Want to catch a streaking sorc as a non NB? Invasion, retreating maneuver, crit Rush shoot man their are lots of gap closers if you don't like or use those. Use a mobility potion or check your class skills.
Nothing against you man. I'm just tired of the nerfn ZOS has been doing due to people thinking they should slaughter every person they cross in Cryodil. Fact of the matter is it ain't gonna happen.
I wouldn't state fact of the matter. You have no idea what will happen. So, wrong, it might not happen or it might happen.0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think @zornyan is trying to emphasize that stacking shields is only a symptom of the real problem which is resources contributing too much to DMG. Sorc should have to invest in more than just Magic to get Mobility, DPS, Defense etc but currently they don't. All classes should have to choose which area's to be strong in and balance, not stack one resource and get everything they need. They get all the cake and get to eat it too.
This man gets it.
As I've shown, with every class, you have to decide a certain route to play. And be willing to accept the weaknesses of that class/build, such as a dk lacking burst, both templars/dks lacking mobility, nightblades lacking defence etc (yes I know cloak is a kind of defence, but it's used mostly as an escape that is easily countered)
Now sorcs, all they have to do is stack magicka, nothing else, that one stat pool, gives them huge shields, which are enough for them to tank on, even vet dungeons, it gives them a spammable escape that also stuns, it gives them huge burst potential, and there's no downsides, there's no "oh if I just stack magicka I won't be able to escape"
Like say a stamblade has to accept he can only cloak twice before he's out of magicka.
Secondly look at sorcerers shields hardened ward, it scales stupidly high compared to all other shields, both class and non class, most shields cap at around 10k in pve, I've seen people with hardened ward at 14k in pvp.
So 3 TIMES the strength of all other shields in the game, I constantly hear the argument "we need massive shields or we die"
Well why don't templars have large class shields? Our already weak shield has been made usless, why don't DKs get a class shield that scales higher? Which makes more sense imo due to them being a defensive class.
Basically being a magicka stacking sorc, means you are both hugely tanky and have huge damage.
Personally scaling off health in general is bad, as per blazing shield, they need to simply reduce the scale of it, it should he 15k MAX outside pve, leaving it at 7.5k max in pvp (including bastion passives)
That would still be nearly double all other shields in the game, yet not be the size of one's health bar.
Everything you sId here is true. Well said. No denying these. But they will try.1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No...Darnathian wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
20k worth of shields are again an example of stacking shields WHICH NOBODY in this topic is defending.
But going that route would be the same as stating a nerf to breath of life is needed be cause the person can at the same time be healed by rapid regen and healing springs... Does not make much sense does it?
The sorc class shield being more effective than healing is debateable atleast for templars. Combined with their other abilities it´s way harder for me to take down a templar than to take down a sorc (who does NOT stack hardened + harness). Heals also come with the benefit of not being exclusive to your character. I think shields SHOULD be stronger than heals in a 1v1 situation when directly compared (as stated templar for example has other lovely abilities that synergise well with their healing) because heals actually are able to keep your grp alive. A sorc can only shield themself.
Not true. It has already been pointed out in this thread on how to heal yourself. It's just not convenient for a sorc who doesn't want to mess with their bars or lose some damage. Use a restro staff like everyone else.
I agree though. The class shield may be fine. Won't be able to tell for sure though until shield stacking is removed.
What exactly about my statement is not true? Like i don´t make one statement about sorc selfhealing (which is inferior to every other class - nothing to argue here) - it just was not a point of what i wrote at all. Reread plz.
Edit:Geh - tempter got the best of me.Edited by Derra on November 9, 2015 9:11PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...Darnathian wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Just wanted to pop in again and remind you all that it is Annulment + its morphs that make Sorcerers unbalanced atm, not Hardened Ward. Leave Hardened Ward alone and let's talk about how any competent sorc can always burst or tank any other magicka build (other than sorcs) by using Harness/Dampen on top of Hardened Ward, if they can't they need to go practice and try again when they've improved. Either that or use the catch-up system to get enough CP's into Bastion.
Annulment is making sorcs unbalanced, granted exclusively vs magicka builds, but that is still a balance issue. Obviously stamina builds can deal with the shield stack, why would anyone want to make stamina builds bursting sorcs easy-mode? (don't answer that one) Let's deal with the easy-mode switch we have already, which is trololololol Triple H's romping around slamming chairs into other magicka users with little to no risk to themselves. (Hardened + Harness + Healing)
I'm not even totally against shield-stacking, I'm just for any solution to the problem of sorcs being way too tanky vs other magicka builds (without sacrificing damage for that tankiness). If that means shields should be placed on a minor/major system or override one another, I'm for it.
Finally someone on topic who is making some sort of sense.
I'm completely fine with Annulment no longer stacking with Hardened ward because both last for 20 seconds and can be pre-applied and offer too much magical protection for too cheap of a cost against any player running a magicka build.
Healing ward is another story and I have no problem with that stacking with Hardened ward or annulment since it only lasts 4 seconds.
I may be missing something but why the disparity when it comes to the length of time shields last? My initial thoughts is the should All be the same time. Why 20s for a SORC and 6 for blazing shield?
Again I am asking as I may have missed something.
A Templar has the option to burst heal in the even he is damaged, a sorc does not. A pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth.
Blazing shield and Healing ward both are utility shields...they have an effect that isn't just a damage shield.
As it stands when being pressured a templar would be spamming shields the same as a sorc....if Blazing were more useable.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »Darnathian wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Just wanted to pop in again and remind you all that it is Annulment + its morphs that make Sorcerers unbalanced atm, not Hardened Ward. Leave Hardened Ward alone and let's talk about how any competent sorc can always burst or tank any other magicka build (other than sorcs) by using Harness/Dampen on top of Hardened Ward, if they can't they need to go practice and try again when they've improved. Either that or use the catch-up system to get enough CP's into Bastion.
Annulment is making sorcs unbalanced, granted exclusively vs magicka builds, but that is still a balance issue. Obviously stamina builds can deal with the shield stack, why would anyone want to make stamina builds bursting sorcs easy-mode? (don't answer that one) Let's deal with the easy-mode switch we have already, which is trololololol Triple H's romping around slamming chairs into other magicka users with little to no risk to themselves. (Hardened + Harness + Healing)
I'm not even totally against shield-stacking, I'm just for any solution to the problem of sorcs being way too tanky vs other magicka builds (without sacrificing damage for that tankiness). If that means shields should be placed on a minor/major system or override one another, I'm for it.
Finally someone on topic who is making some sort of sense.
I'm completely fine with Annulment no longer stacking with Hardened ward because both last for 20 seconds and can be pre-applied and offer too much magical protection for too cheap of a cost against any player running a magicka build.
Healing ward is another story and I have no problem with that stacking with Hardened ward or annulment since it only lasts 4 seconds.
I may be missing something but why the disparity when it comes to the length of time shields last? My initial thoughts is the should All be the same time. Why 20s for a SORC and 6 for blazing shield?
Again I am asking as I may have missed something.
Blazing shield does damage on dispel depending on how much was absorbed afaik, I guess if it lasted longer it would absorb more damage and then do more damage? It's been a while since I played my templar. Reducing hardened ward to 10 seconds wouldn't have a huge effect on it's effectiveness imo; when taking damage from even one source it's very unlikely to last 10 seconds.
It would have a huge effect in its utility, especially in PvE. Many of my deaths happen in VMSA because I forgot to reapply my shield. Having to do this every 10 seconds would be terrible.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...Darnathian wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »FriedEggSandwich wrote: »If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.
Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.
If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?
Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.
But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?
Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.
Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.
Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.
We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,
As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.
We nave no mobility too.
So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?
20k worth of shields are again an example of stacking shields WHICH NOBODY in this topic is defending.
But going that route would be the same as stating a nerf to breath of life is needed be cause the person can at the same time be healed by rapid regen and healing springs... Does not make much sense does it?
The sorc class shield being more effective than healing is debateable atleast for templars. Combined with their other abilities it´s way harder for me to take down a templar than to take down a sorc (who does NOT stack hardened + harness). Heals also come with the benefit of not being exclusive to your character. I think shields SHOULD be stronger than heals in a 1v1 situation when directly compared (as stated templar for example has other lovely abilities that synergise well with their healing) because heals actually are able to keep your grp alive. A sorc can only shield themself.
Not true. It has already been pointed out in this thread on how to heal yourself. It's just not convenient for a sorc who doesn't want to mess with their bars or lose some damage. Use a restro staff like everyone else.
I agree though. The class shield may be fine. Won't be able to tell for sure though until shield stacking is removed.
What exactly about my statement is not true? Like i don´t make one statement about sorc selfhealing (which is inferior to every other class - nothing to argue here) - it just was not a point of what i wrote at all. Reread plz.
Edit:Geh - tempter got the best of me.
This thread should just be renamed to Nerf-Sorcs and stick a fork in her. Been there done that.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).
Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.
I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.
I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).
Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.
I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.
I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....
Exactly this, a sorc can keep a shield up permenantly, and take 0 damage, they can put a shield up before attack someone, and then attack full force without worrying for several seconds.
A templar has to waste precious time healing, all whilst taking more damage, my breath of life heals for 15k+ in cyrodil, but half the time the second I heal back to full health, I've got 2 more wrecking blows coming my way instantly bringing me back down, or killing me .
Also Templars lack the mobility of socerers, since they have the single best escape in the game, and one of the best and hardest hitting skills in the game, that also had the benefit of working from range .1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No...A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).
Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.
I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.
I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....
Exactly this, a sorc can keep a shield up permenantly, and take 0 damage, they can put a shield up before attack someone, and then attack full force without worrying for several seconds.
A templar has to waste precious time healing, all whilst taking more damage, my breath of life heals for 15k+ in cyrodil, but half the time the second I heal back to full health, I've got 2 more wrecking blows coming my way instantly bringing me back down, or killing me .
Also Templars lack the mobility of socerers, since they have the single best escape in the game, and one of the best and hardest hitting skills in the game, that also had the benefit of working from range .
Well what´s keeping you from damaging the sorcs shield when they cast it? It´s basically 100% the same as with your heal ._. both abilities take 1gcd to execute.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).
Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.
I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.
I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....
Exactly this, a sorc can keep a shield up permenantly, and take 0 damage, they can put a shield up before attack someone, and then attack full force without worrying for several seconds.
A templar has to waste precious time healing, all whilst taking more damage, my breath of life heals for 15k+ in cyrodil, but half the time the second I heal back to full health, I've got 2 more wrecking blows coming my way instantly bringing me back down, or killing me .
Also Templars lack the mobility of socerers, since they have the single best escape in the game, and one of the best and hardest hitting skills in the game, that also had the benefit of working from range .
Well what´s keeping you from damaging the sorcs shield when they cast it? It´s basically 100% the same as with your heal ._. both abilities take 1gcd to execute.
I was specifically referencing @Ezareth's point that he has to keep a shield up 100% of the time when pvp'ing or he dies to NB instagib. I was merely pointing out in that scenario he has an advantage over Templar's as heals are reactionary defense and shields are proactive defense. In his scenario he survives because of his shield, but the Templar dies as it can not react fast enough to heal, as they are wearing almost identical armor I was going off his statement of no shield = instant death to NB. Even if the Temp reacts fast enough he is now immediately put on the defense and the more he heals the less likely he is to survive because when healing you are doing no dmg. The Templar CAN come back into the fight as long as they are not insta killed. But to get back into the fight they would have to BOL to Channeled Focus to BOL to attack to recover from all that dmg 3 skills to equal the pressing of 1 button for the Sorc maybe two for Hardened Ward to Harness Magic or Healing ward etc. Keep in mind the whole time we are fighting the templars defense is still reactionary not proactive. At no point can we get "ahead" of the dmg curve to start fighting back, we are constantly one step behind everyone, whereas the Sorcerer can ANTICIPATE the dmg incoming and decide how many shields to use.Edited by AfkNinja on November 9, 2015 10:39PM0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭A Magic Templar has the option to burst heal in the event he is damaged (if he has time to react), a sorc does not. A sorc pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth (wouldn't a magic templar have the same risk because no shield?).
Yes a magic templar can reactively heal but wouldn't the Magic Templar be using very similar armor to a Magic Sorc? If your Magic Sorc is being 1 shot from stealth so would the Templar, however you can proactively anticipate this dmg and protect yourself, the Templar can't.
I don't think Hardened Ward should scale on HP but if shield stacking stays in there needs to be some kind of adjustment made.
I also think it's funny you're so against a 10 second shield with no other nerf when Templar's is 6 seconds, was double nerfed for IC and their armor is 12 seconds....
Exactly this, a sorc can keep a shield up permenantly, and take 0 damage, they can put a shield up before attack someone, and then attack full force without worrying for several seconds.
A templar has to waste precious time healing, all whilst taking more damage, my breath of life heals for 15k+ in cyrodil, but half the time the second I heal back to full health, I've got 2 more wrecking blows coming my way instantly bringing me back down, or killing me .
Also Templars lack the mobility of socerers, since they have the single best escape in the game, and one of the best and hardest hitting skills in the game, that also had the benefit of working from range .
Well what´s keeping you from damaging the sorcs shield when they cast it? It´s basically 100% the same as with your heal ._. both abilities take 1gcd to execute.
Okay take it like this
Your a templar and find a wrecking blow spammer.
He hits you, you've lost 10k of your 25k health, you break free and another hits you, you heal but as doing that another gits you, forcing you to heal again, and again, putting out minimal dps if any, whilst doing so.
A sorc can put up a 15k shield, run into the battle, and hit the spammer, without worrying about the initial hit, immediately putting him on the offense, thanks to their huge burst damage, they can annihilate the spammer before a second wrecking blow is even considered.
See the issue?0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No...nordickittyhawk wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »nordickittyhawk wrote: »I just like to add with all you ladies n gents debating on the subject (those keeping it mature thank you very much) please do not insult, tell people to l2p or claiming this player wants a nerf as he voted yes or has diagrement on shield stacking. Please understand people are debating here. iv recived alot comments people claiming i want sorcs nerfed where in the title of the post does it say nerf... it was a question for people to debate on keep it civil please and thank you.
Lol. "I want shield strength to be scaling off HP not magicka, but I'm not calling for a nerf".
If you can't see why that would be nerf after 12 pages of explanations then you either have very severe comprehension issues or lying about your intentions. That's not a matter of opinion, that's fact.
If the reality offends you, you need to have a word with yourself. You can't expect to call spade a hammer and not be called out for it.
Its a question is people like you that see it as a nerf n start a fire. The fourms are so toxic about subjects like this because no one can treat is maturely.
The forums are toxic are because people like you start nerf threads every single day. Not because people like me (mistakenly, evidently) spend time to explain to you why such a change would be a major nerf.
If you don't understand what you're doing, then better not do it at allEdited by Maulkin on November 9, 2015 11:27PMEU | PC | AD2 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭Oh 82k damage shields.... so 42k in pvp....
Without any CP in bastion....
Nope not broken at all, nothing to see here lads..0 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...Darnathian wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Just wanted to pop in again and remind you all that it is Annulment + its morphs that make Sorcerers unbalanced atm, not Hardened Ward. Leave Hardened Ward alone and let's talk about how any competent sorc can always burst or tank any other magicka build (other than sorcs) by using Harness/Dampen on top of Hardened Ward, if they can't they need to go practice and try again when they've improved. Either that or use the catch-up system to get enough CP's into Bastion.
Annulment is making sorcs unbalanced, granted exclusively vs magicka builds, but that is still a balance issue. Obviously stamina builds can deal with the shield stack, why would anyone want to make stamina builds bursting sorcs easy-mode? (don't answer that one) Let's deal with the easy-mode switch we have already, which is trololololol Triple H's romping around slamming chairs into other magicka users with little to no risk to themselves. (Hardened + Harness + Healing)
I'm not even totally against shield-stacking, I'm just for any solution to the problem of sorcs being way too tanky vs other magicka builds (without sacrificing damage for that tankiness). If that means shields should be placed on a minor/major system or override one another, I'm for it.
Finally someone on topic who is making some sort of sense.
I'm completely fine with Annulment no longer stacking with Hardened ward because both last for 20 seconds and can be pre-applied and offer too much magical protection for too cheap of a cost against any player running a magicka build.
Healing ward is another story and I have no problem with that stacking with Hardened ward or annulment since it only lasts 4 seconds.
I may be missing something but why the disparity when it comes to the length of time shields last? My initial thoughts is the should All be the same time. Why 20s for a SORC and 6 for blazing shield?
Again I am asking as I may have missed something.
A Templar has the option to burst heal in the even he is damaged, a sorc does not. A pretty much has to always have a shield up anywhere he goes or risk being 1-shot from stealth.
Blazing shield and Healing ward both are utility shields...they have an effect that isn't just a damage shield.
As it stands when being pressured a templar would be spamming shields the same as a sorc....if Blazing were more useable.FriedEggSandwich wrote: »Darnathian wrote: »WreckfulAbandon wrote: »Just wanted to pop in again and remind you all that it is Annulment + its morphs that make Sorcerers unbalanced atm, not Hardened Ward. Leave Hardened Ward alone and let's talk about how any competent sorc can always burst or tank any other magicka build (other than sorcs) by using Harness/Dampen on top of Hardened Ward, if they can't they need to go practice and try again when they've improved. Either that or use the catch-up system to get enough CP's into Bastion.
Annulment is making sorcs unbalanced, granted exclusively vs magicka builds, but that is still a balance issue. Obviously stamina builds can deal with the shield stack, why would anyone want to make stamina builds bursting sorcs easy-mode? (don't answer that one) Let's deal with the easy-mode switch we have already, which is trololololol Triple H's romping around slamming chairs into other magicka users with little to no risk to themselves. (Hardened + Harness + Healing)
I'm not even totally against shield-stacking, I'm just for any solution to the problem of sorcs being way too tanky vs other magicka builds (without sacrificing damage for that tankiness). If that means shields should be placed on a minor/major system or override one another, I'm for it.
Finally someone on topic who is making some sort of sense.
I'm completely fine with Annulment no longer stacking with Hardened ward because both last for 20 seconds and can be pre-applied and offer too much magical protection for too cheap of a cost against any player running a magicka build.
Healing ward is another story and I have no problem with that stacking with Hardened ward or annulment since it only lasts 4 seconds.
I may be missing something but why the disparity when it comes to the length of time shields last? My initial thoughts is the should All be the same time. Why 20s for a SORC and 6 for blazing shield?
Again I am asking as I may have missed something.
Blazing shield does damage on dispel depending on how much was absorbed afaik, I guess if it lasted longer it would absorb more damage and then do more damage? It's been a while since I played my templar. Reducing hardened ward to 10 seconds wouldn't have a huge effect on it's effectiveness imo; when taking damage from even one source it's very unlikely to last 10 seconds.
It would have a huge effect in its utility, especially in PvE. Many of my deaths happen in VMSA because I forgot to reapply my shield. Having to do this every 10 seconds would be terrible.
Yeah I wasn't suggesting it was reduced to 10 seconds, was trying to make the point that there is no need to reduce its duration when it can be destroyed in seconds. Its duration doesn't really contribute to its strength. All of this comparing templars to sorcs is rediculous anyway imo, they are classes designed for different roles.PC | EU0 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...Oh 82k damage shields.... so 42k in pvp....
Without any CP in bastion....
Nope not broken at all, nothing to see here lads..
Where are you getting these figures from?? Stop posting BS ffs. 10k hardened plus 7k harness = 17k damage shield. Healing starts off as a 3-4k ward and goes up to about 15k if cast at low health, but it lasts 6 seconds. You play a templar from what I can gather so should know how healing ward works. These figures are with 35k magicka and 77cp in bastion for 20% boost to damage shield strength. 100 cp in bastion gives 25% boost to damage shield strength so wouldn't amount to much more. You're just being disruptive now.
Edit: adjusted some figures.Edited by FriedEggSandwich on November 10, 2015 12:55AMPC | EU3
