zornyan wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

The above setup I noted would be far about 17k. The average sorc sustain build with around 3k spell power and 38k msgicks seems to hit me for 13-14k in PVP.

Something with that kind of spell power/magicka would be 20k+ in pvp. That'll be one shot ting everything.

I run with 39k magica 3160 spelldmg when playing solo. I´ve hit for over 13k fragements under 10 times total since the launch of IC (two months ago). The only time i do hit for that much dmg is on sorcs not playing with major spellresist buff all light armor or on battleleveled characters.

If you get hit for that much dmg regularly in pvp you need to repair your gear or start running around with more than 10k spellresist.

I´ve tried my pve build which is a non procc max spelldmg setup but it´s not vaible in pvp at all. An opponent who´s aware of the sorc will always either evade or block fragments. You need toggles in your build to exceed ~42k magica currently.

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Also note that my imperial templar only has 900 regen, yet does fine solo in pvp and heals through vet dungeons in PVE.

Also note that a lot of the sorcerers that have completed vetmsa of their builds multiple had only 900 regen, it's really not that hard to keep your mana pool up using pots.

More BS I'm sorry. I ran the vet arena with 1.9k regen and it was really hard to keep my magicka up using pots. You clearly don't have a clue what you're on about. "does fine in pvp" lol

Facts: most sorcs run around cyro with about 35k magicka and 2.5-3k spell damage and about 1.9k regen. To get your magicka over 40k you need more than racial bonuses; you either need to wear a set like necropotence or you need to put more than one toggle on your bar. You know what toggles are right? Skills you slot that passively buff your magicka but take up space on your bar so that you can't use proper skills. Toggles reduce your effectiveness in pvp; if you have inner light and bound aegis on both bars that leaves you with only 3 usable skills per bar. How is a sorc supposed to shield stack with only 3 usable slots on his back bar?

You need to drop your sorc delusions; I think you'll find that sorc stats pale in comparison to stamblade stats, when compared like-for-like with weapon damage and stam regen.

Well he´s right in terms of vet msa. I´ve ran it two times with 890 reg. It has nothing to do with pots but all with elemental drain (and energy overload).

My character has nearly 28k spell resist, still get 13k frags in my tooltips.

Derra wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

The above setup I noted would be far about 17k. The average sorc sustain build with around 3k spell power and 38k msgicks seems to hit me for 13-14k in PVP.

Something with that kind of spell power/magicka would be 20k+ in pvp. That'll be one shot ting everything.

I run with 39k magica 3160 spelldmg when playing solo. I´ve hit for over 13k fragements under 10 times total since the launch of IC (two months ago). The only time i do hit for that much dmg is on sorcs not playing with major spellresist buff all light armor or on battleleveled characters.

If you get hit for that much dmg regularly in pvp you need to repair your gear or start running around with more than 10k spellresist.

I´ve tried my pve build which is a non procc max spelldmg setup but it´s not vaible in pvp at all. An opponent who´s aware of the sorc will always either evade or block fragments. You need toggles in your build to exceed ~42k magica currently.

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Also note that my imperial templar only has 900 regen, yet does fine solo in pvp and heals through vet dungeons in PVE.

Also note that a lot of the sorcerers that have completed vetmsa of their builds multiple had only 900 regen, it's really not that hard to keep your mana pool up using pots.

More BS I'm sorry. I ran the vet arena with 1.9k regen and it was really hard to keep my magicka up using pots. You clearly don't have a clue what you're on about. "does fine in pvp" lol

Facts: most sorcs run around cyro with about 35k magicka and 2.5-3k spell damage and about 1.9k regen. To get your magicka over 40k you need more than racial bonuses; you either need to wear a set like necropotence or you need to put more than one toggle on your bar. You know what toggles are right? Skills you slot that passively buff your magicka but take up space on your bar so that you can't use proper skills. Toggles reduce your effectiveness in pvp; if you have inner light and bound aegis on both bars that leaves you with only 3 usable skills per bar. How is a sorc supposed to shield stack with only 3 usable slots on his back bar?

You need to drop your sorc delusions; I think you'll find that sorc stats pale in comparison to stamblade stats, when compared like-for-like with weapon damage and stam regen.

Well he´s right in terms of vet msa. I´ve ran it two times with 890 reg. It has nothing to do with pots but all with elemental drain (and energy overload).

zornyan wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

then there is sth borked with your char :d my nb has not ever eaten more than 11k frag since IC with 15k spellres in med armor.

I'm wearing 5 light 1 med heavy, heavy chest, med legs, nirnhoned on chest and legs, rest divines, breton passive, templar passive + channeled focus and Nirnhoned sword and board.

Ezareth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

"Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that." (Yes every class stacks almost 1 resource exclusively. I have a problem with this.)

My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. (How many Stamina skills do you use? None? Thought so.)

*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina/health build. (This is my point. There is literally no option to diversify or you ruin your build.)

Thank you for your response, I have enjoyed debating this issue.

I've already mentioned that I slot defensive stance(A stamina ability) and I use it constantly. Half of my stamina consumption goes into that, which is why I have increased regen. The min/max sorc's you're talking about with huge magicka pools die to me because they are glass cannons with no utility in their build, just damage. In 1.6 I ran Stamina reduction enchants on my jewelry and would continue to do that had they not simultaneously nerfed spell damage on sets while buffing it on enchants.

If you PvPed with any measure of skill or knowledge you'd understand what I'm talking about, there is no debate happening here.

There is no debate, because you aren't focusing on the points we are making. You are apparently comfortable with every change ZoS makes to the game, and happy to just move your build to whatever is the FotM, quality of the game be damned. At least that is how you are coming across in this conversation to me. The way things appear, there is no debate happening in large part because you won't face some of our points at face value. Every claim you have made has been circuitous at best, and with a desire to seemingly latch on to whatever Strength you feel you are going to lose for your Sorcerer. As far as I can tell you play 2 characters, a nightblade and a sorcerer. Congratulations. How familiar are you with the other 2 classes, I mean really familiar? I'm not talking about dealing with them as an opponent, but actually playing them. This is exactly what you are asking of us, and I happen to have experience playing all 4. You can dance around the issue all you like, but the core of the problem here is the issue with DPS vs. Mitigation in this game. Mitigation is functioning in a wierd and haphazard way, which you admit when it hurts you (Streak nerfs, cloak nerfs) but somehow dance around when anyone discusses it with another class. Instead of bragging about superior knowledge, I think you need to show up or shut up.

You're not making any points to focus on because I had more understanding of this game by the time I've played the game for three months than the lot of you have combined. FotM is FotM. You don't even know what that means, and if you had the slightest bit of reading comprehension you'd recognize that my build is certainly not flavor of the month. I have 120 days played on my Sorc and *I* create builds, I don't copy builds or ideas, it goes the other way around. You guys are just throwing whatever you can at the wall here and hoping something sticks, that's the problem with these forum "debates". It's just full of people who limited understanding who do nothing but cry for nerfs because their knowledge is lacking.

What do you mean Mitigation is functioning in a "wierd and haphazard way?" What does that even mean? And what does that have to do with streak nerfs or cloak nerfs? (I don't even use streak or cloak on either of my characters but thanks for throwing those in there for....reasons?).

Congrats on playing 4 characters and knowing nothing about them? I know how to kill DKs and Templars, I know the strengths and weaknesses of both classes pretty well. I don't have knowledge of any particular bugs with certain skills they might experience or other things of that nature that only play the class would reveal. I've Duo PvPed for months now with another skilled templar and have filled in most of my knowledge on the strengths and weaknesses from that. I have the least knowledge of DKs but that is still far more than your average player and I know them well enough to counter them (even when they were at the top of the food chain).

Ezareth, you really are full of yourself. I'm not knocking your aptitude as a pvp'er and duelist, because you do fine in that. I am knocking your capacity to have a proper discussion. You're so full of yourself you can't realize that broad changes to the game effect abilities in specific. You won't attack this consideration head on, which is the only reason I opted to the Health-Shield side of the debate to begin with. You're so busy puffing yourself up and claiming a superior knowledge base, when I'm not entirely sure that knowledge base exists. I never disagreed with you about shield stacking in particular. I'll tell you this. If you really did pvp in the early game, you would recognize that Sun Shield was SIGNIFICANTLY better than it is now (and it was still quite limited back then, in the sense that you had to press aggressively into melee). For you to say anything otherwise is a boldfaced lie, and considering I know for a fact you've been playing the game for a while, I'm going to opt on the side of deceptiveness. I use to have more respect for you Ezareth, but this is beginning to get ridiculous. I'm not sure why I should be impressed that you know how to kill Templars and DK's, particularly in the current environment. This is your argument? I give you factual information about game mechanics, and you have nothing to say about them, except to say you have a bigger knowledge base.

Lets make it clear. You feel Sorcerers should get the only magic-based Shield. Sorcs have the best self major armor buff, a permanent minor armor buff, the best passive traits to regeneration and reduction, some innate soft heals (that I grant are weaker than a magicka templar, specifically BoL), and the best cost reduction passives. They can also get the highest damage bonus numbers, either for weapon or magic. They have one of the best escape mechanisms, with either a hard cc or a projectile blocker, and their armor also boosts the longest speed buff in the game outside of rapid maneuver. With all that said, you still think hardened ward should be scaled on magicka when other classes have to specifically rely on Health-based shields. This is even to the detriment of the Sorcerer Tank build, which is already in a dire situation in large part thanks to the reduction of the health multiplier and the 0% regen people now obtain while blocking. In the case of Templar it is a 6 second shield, part of which is tied up in cast time and animation clipping. In the case of DK they have a self heal that is COMPLETELY gutted and a flimsy but long duration shield. You are full of yourself, and I highly doubt you actually care about meaningful balance in the game, apart from self interest to promote your two favorite builds. I can accept the fact if you say 'too bad that's the way it is right now', but that isn't what you're saying, and at any regard the point is I'm not thinking about right now. I'm thinking about the future and how they can improve and balance the game.

Its great that you know stamina regen is important to Sorcerers, since that is usually what gets them killed. I think almost every Sorcerer in Cyrodiil that has played their character for some time knows that. I don't think that makes you the wunderkind of cyrodiil for knowing that. Guess what, Templars face that problem as well, and with the multiple nerfs to their Shield and blocking in general the differences are palpable. The Templar options right now are extremely limited in the pvp realm and pve realm. You really need a better argument than 'Look Heals'. Magicka Templar does alright, but is definitely more susceptible than a Magicka Sorcerer for a lot of reasons but makes up for it by giving more support to the team. Stamina Templar has a harder time. Tank Templar has a harder time. Tank Sorcerer has a harder time. Tank anything has a harder time.

Here's the rub. Health as a stat is just not meaningful enough in the game right now. This is the crux of my concern. The fact that people can triple stack shield buffs is a whole other issue. The Triple stacking of shield buffs should probably change, but I do not see how that deals with the low performance of the Health stat in the current system. There needs to be avenues for players of all 4 classes to EACH play the 4 roles effectively (Magic DPS, Healer, Stamina DPS, and Tank). The true tank has always been the weakest link in pvp, and has only gotten worse in the last couple of major patches. Tanks have always spread their stats with enough health not to die and enough of the 'other stat' to spam defensive abilities. My suggestion that Ward should be based upon Health is conditional, and requires that they fix underlying game mechanics (like the health multiplier among other things). Health is quite simply an under-performing Stat. There is literally no situation where you should go all in on health in this game. Why then should there be a situation where you go all in on Magicka and Stamina? This is to some degree in hyperbole, I realize DPS needs enough health to avoid getting 1 shot. Another alternative to the Health problem would be for them to have high health reduce block costs, and give bonuses to general damage mitigation. As it stands putting points in health costs you a lot more than it gives back, more so on a Sorcerer. So you see, my point is not to nerf Sorcs, but to broaden their options.

I'm not full of myself but when someone starts throwing some FOTM garbage at me while being dead wrong and not knowing anything about me I'm going to set them straight. You guys have continued to put all these words in my mouth and say I said things that I never said (I, while completely ignoring what I did say.

I remember Sun Shield being absurdly powerful. There were templars who would do nothing but charge into zergs and spam only that and rake in AP. Yes It's garbage now, and I think it should be brought in line with other damage shields but considering it does damage it shouldn't be anywhere near as large as hardened ward. Scaling off of health is the proper way to balance it. I've said since Day 1 of 1.6 that removing the health bonus was a mistake.

As far as my stamina regen, you're not going to find many Sorcs in PvP with 1800 stam regen, aware of limitations or not. I've already said I have no interest in discussing Stamina Templar or Stamina Sorcs as it doesn't relate to this thread.

I do agree health was devalued, I've been saying that for ages. You don't need to make magicka worth less to make it equal to health.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Titan1373 wrote: »

Let's all stop pretending sorcs don't need a major nerf.

Said the stamblade that needs an even bigger one. Let me quote you from the Nerf Cloak thread...

Titan1373 wrote: »

Please nerf paper. Paper is completely OP and not fair. It's ruining the game for me. Please bring balance to this game. Scissors is fine though.

Signed,
Rock

Forums in a nutshell...

...oh the irony

Titan1373 wrote: »

My prediction for the next nerf is definitely sorcs. Would rather buff the other ones but it seems nerfs is the blanket fix. No class should have no apparent weakness. Not only do sorcs have ridiculously high damage, they have ridiculous survivability, and ridiculous mobility. It's a joke.

Seems the game plan is to try and burst the opponent down (with a three load out bar, thanks to a ridiculous ultimate that make light attacks hit for 7-10k lol). If that fails then reapply all those shields and try again. If all else fails then bolt away, which can't be caught if the sorc has any common sense. Seems fair.

Not to mention they have pets that they can hide behind. Oh and one that heals a good freaking chunk of health. Rather they use them or not, it's still a nice option to have.

So OP ultimates, damage, damage mitigation, survivability, mobiltity, CC, and passives. UP(underpowered btw, nothing a sorcerer knows anything about lol)???

But yeah let's focus on wrecking blow and cloak.

zornyan wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

If their not going to nerf sorc shields. They need to at minimal make them crittable and dots apply. It's a bit silly that casting that one spell negates 2 entire classes/builds.

Any stam build that stacks crit damage+chance is made utterly usless, and DKs especially of the magicka variety have their bread and butter dps completly removed and made useless.

If it wasn't possible to stack harness on hardened there would be no need to make them crittable as the most they would ever amount to is about 10k. Dots do apply, they just damage the shield instead of the player. Crit damage and chance is not made utterly useless; to kill a sorc you still need to get their hp to zero which means doing damage when they have no shield up and crit damage and chance is really useful then. Sorcs aren't the only class to use shields, you really want all shields to be crittable when surprise attack crits for 13k?

Edit: you say nerf sorc shields but sorcs only have one shield.

But why should sorc have a shield that is 2-4 times the strength of others in the game?

Because it's all we have. We don't have on demand burst heals, we wear light armour which has no mitigation, we are magicka users and can't dodge-roll more than twice, and we can't easily utilise dodge chance to make damage miss us. Absorbing damage with a ward is the only regular damage mitigation available to us.

Yet both templars and dks have to wear light armor.

Templars defensive buff is shorter lasting and requires us to stand in one spot.

We are magicka users and can't dodge roll more than twice,

As proven by many people, shields are more effective than Healing, as you can put 20k worth of shields up before entering conbat, where as you have to heal just at the right time.

We nave no mobility too.


So again considering these facts, why do sorcs shields have to be 3-4 times the strength of others?