Ezareth wrote: »

Angarato wrote: »

yeah we do read. some dks can indeed outtank a sorc. but he cant do it in his top dps build. thats the problem thats why sorc is op. its not JUST the shield stacking. its the fact you can do everything without giving anything up to achieve this. tanky dks do no damage and thus put up no pressure and we can just stand there and pound on him. you cant do that vs a sorc cause you will die. why dont you sorcs get this. if it was JUSt the tankiness and surviablity and low damage it would be fine. sorcs can do some serious *** burst that any other tanky class just cant do.

magicka nbs are pretty survivable too. but they dont do anywhere near the burst a sorc can pull off.
DK's can do some nice burst damage. but those dks are squishier than even my nb cause theyre wearing medium armor
templars can be scary sometimes but they can be bursted down.
stamblades do sick damage but take just as many. theyre actually the first 1 i go for as a stamblade myself cause they die within seconds.

Show me the Sorc that can do what happens at the beginning of this clip. You can't, but you don't hear me crying nerf.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avUVi6DvMYw

Different classes have different strengths and weaknesses. I could point out the strengths of every other class in the same argument you're trying against sorcs.

It's a L2P issue, plain and simple. Shields are fine right now, making Sorc damage shields scale off of magicka would completely gimp the class. If you're having issues against sorcs then equip a shield breaker set and go easy mode like the rest of the bads.

Also if you think stamblades die easily you're fighting bad stamblades. If you're running sword and board and have a proper setup a stamina NB is one of the hardest classes to kill in the game right now.

If they're a garbage can ambush spammer who relies upon cloak as their only defensive option then yeah, easy kill. Most nightblades are just bad players, it's not the class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF204Ra2Nns and instead of just kiting them like the dk he actually kill most of them without using terrain fall damage. in an even tighter space than the dk used.

Angarato wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Angarato wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Angarato wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Docmandu wrote: »

Dunno.. it has to be useful, but at the moment it's stupid when you see sorcs that have bigger shields than their own health bar. Fact that shields make you crit immune doesn't help, or that Hardy also reduces damage to shields.

Top DPS with Top Defense = bad design.

You want WTF DPS? You should trade that for defense.

Currently you can have both... same problem as with pre-nerf DKs.

So stamina heals should no longer scale with wpnpower/maxstam as i take it?

Because currently stamina heals work in the same way as the sorc shields.

Well every heal does - but most of the time stam players are complaining. Change all the heals to scale on health :P

Show me a spammable stamina heal combo that covers your entire health bar, and we'll talk again.

Show me the sorc shield that covers their entire health bar.

It´s stacking shields that can achieve that at best. Would you be happier if sorc shield would function like vigor. A sot (shield over time) giving you a 2.5 to 3.5k shield (still talking unmitigated dmg here) every second building up (oh and make it an aoe then too).
That would be fun! Especially as you´d have more time to be on the offense.

A stam player can be just as tanky as a sorc (in fact stam DKs are a hell of a lot tankier than a sorc can ever hope to be in the current meta). Their best offensive weapon set right now is also their best defensive one (s&b). Their defensive heals scale of their main resource AND their offensive stat.

Uhm... but vigor is a heal u can out dps that.... a shield protects your health and i dont wanna sound like a *** but... sorcs in pvp are more tanky than any other class n you what worst part is "they dont even need to block"

Well you´re not sounding like a d*ck. You´re just sounding uneducated.
Huge part of sorcs survivability is still movement related. If you´re facetanking dmg a stam DK, heavy armor magica DK or templar is far more durable atm.

well thats just insultive saying that... but no i think your wrong... as im a NB so im a counter to tanks.

I don´t talk about tanks. I´m talking about dps stamina DKs which happen to be tankier than sorcs atm.

well your a sorc... so they have wings n all that stuff while me i have fear so i dont have 1 problem with em so eh more of class weakness i guess? rock paper scissors?

I´m not talking about trying to kill one on a sorc. I´m talking on both getting a beating by the same grp of players. While the sorc has a higher chance of escaping - IF both players just facetank the dmg using shields / heals the stam dk is going to be alive for quite some time after the sorc is dead.

cept for the fact that we cant just pound on you like we do with a dk. streak, mines, proxy det. fearing a dk drops their defense but it doesnt drop yours. dk only have facetanking, their damage is low and their mobility even lower and their defenses are countered by cc.

Do you guys even read?

I´m figuring all these things in. The only thing keeping a sorc ahead of a dk in terms of survival is bolt escape.
The argument was sorc can just facetank with shields - which is true to some extend but other classes can do that MUCH better and for a DK also holds true for a build doing the same as sorcs (stacking their offensive resource).

yeah we do read. some dks can indeed outtank a sorc. but he cant do it in his top dps build. thats the problem thats why sorc is op. its not JUST the shield stacking. its the fact you can do everything without giving anything up to achieve this. tanky dks do no damage and thus put up no pressure and we can just stand there and pound on him. you cant do that vs a sorc cause you will die. why dont you sorcs get this. if it was JUSt the tankiness and surviablity and low damage it would be fine. sorcs can do some serious *** burst that any other tanky class just cant do.

magicka nbs are pretty survivable too. but they dont do anywhere near the burst a sorc can pull off.
DK's can do some nice burst damage. but those dks are squishier than even my nb cause theyre wearing medium armor
templars can be scary sometimes but they can be bursted down.
stamblades do sick damage but take just as many. theyre actually the first 1 i go for as a stamblade myself cause they die within seconds.

so no what keeps you alive is not JUST your bolt escape. its the fact that your damage puts too much pressure to just dps you down like you do with dks.

a little clip i recorded. coincidence that it was actually you :P.
disclaimer: yea you are def a good player too no doubt about it and I could have played it better and it was a 2v1 so i'm not bragging
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qP-PSps2i4s

A DK who can't tank a Sorc is not a very good DK. If a Sorc is speccing into high damage, he is giving up sustain for that. If a DK is speccing into damage - same.
I'd also be careful saying magicka NBs have less burst than Sorcs. They do not have Curse and Fragments, but they do have Fear, Assassin's Will, a the better finisher and damage bonus from Cloak/Swarm.
What keeps a Sorc alive is at least Bolt Escape and and shields - not only one of them - and for more survivability you can add buffs like Boundless Storm, Shuffle, Defensive Rune.

are you honestly suggesting stamina dk is on the same level as a magicka sorc? lol

For anything that is not solo play stamina DK is currently miles ahead of magica sorc (only talking pvp here). If we were to reroll with out grp we´d play with stam DKs and NBs and thats it.

ToRelax wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Yes, it should be based off of health. Every shield and every mitigating skill should be based off of health. Its pretty ridiculous that damage dealers get better mitigation than tanks. Period. Either that or they need to get rid of damage bonuses scaling off of magicka/stamina. The only people who get jolly off of a gigantic magic shield with high magicka are people who have it way too easy as spellcasters.

Maybe something should be done about the "tanks" then, if they are so easy to kill...

This is why I agree with the position that shields should base off of Health. In my view the sorcerer tank build actually is harmed by the way the system works. Bear in mind I play all 4 classes more or less equally. I have played my Templar a little more than the other 3, but it is a relatively insignificant difference. I'm not a big fan of cloak nerfs, nor am I a big fan of bolt escape nerfs. I think the Blazing Shield needs a buff in duration. I think all Tanking buffs should scale from health, and not stamina or magicka. I think they need to bring back stamina regen while blocking. I think light and heavy attacks should scale from Health -or- they need to get rid of damage scaling off of attributes altogether (this is a pretty good option). By my mind, a tank should be the warrior build, relying more heavily on his mobility (dodging, sidestepping), Blocking, and light/heavy strikes. The tank should still be able to use powers, but would not be able to throw them out wildly like a mage/rogue build. Conversely a tank build should ACTUALLY be able to survive like this. Until they can resolve a system in this way, the game will always just be essentially the mage(magic dps/heals/mitigation) / rogue (stamina dps/heals/mitigation) dichotomy that it is now. If they don't really rethink their system, this game is going to be very broken in a few more dlc's/CP upgrades.

Like I've been saying, I think the problem is systemic. The ZoS combat system has a cancer that is growing. I do not want Sorc to be underpowered (I really like my sorc). I want to see them tweak the game systems so that they make a bit more sense. As it stands the Tank role is really only good for one thing (raiding). Its not play as you want, because the Tank role more or less stinks everywhere else. The reason I see this as a problem, is that I do not believe it is their design intent, and I think its going to harm the game.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think all Tanking buffs should scale from health, and not stamina or magicka.

Your mistake is associating wards with tanking buffs.

Tanking is having high HP, mitigation and the ability to block loads. Wards take unmitigated damage and you gain 0 benefits from blocking while having a ward up. Because the ward takes all the damage unmitigated anyway and if you block you just waste stamina of which you have little to begin with.

In all games I know wards or damage shields are the defense mechanic of magic classes, not tanks. Which is why I said that nerfing Igneous Shield and Blazing shield the way they did (to scale of HP only) made no sense because they just gimped the light armor DK and Templar massively to the point they are hardly playable outside of big groups.

The reason why tanks became irrelevant is not so much because of the block nerf, they can still block plenty from what I see. The problem is 50% damage reduction which means unless you are built for burst damage you can't kill *** in cyrodiil any more. Before they could block and also deal enough damage to kill people. Not any more.

Yet still you have gankers 1-shotting people all over the place so that still did not get solved with the battle spirit nerf. Nerfing the Sorc survivability further will turn dichotomy to monotony where everyone just plays rogue because that's the only effective build left

That would be great if the Tank role had to commit to its mitigations in a way that other builds could not. The problem comes with damage dealing builds being able to get at or near-cap resistances, as well as infinite shields. The problem comes with Tanks being nothing more than a health sponge, particularly in this latest iteration of the game. You're right a tank can block a lot, but if they do so they really can't do much of anything else, again pointing to the damage sponge issue. I really think if magic is going to scale magic damage, and stamina is going to scale weapon damage, then health should scale mitigation and quite possibly light/heavy attacks & bash/block effects. The big picture doesn't look good. I've seen this happen on other mmo's before, where DPS becomes king, and if you want to take advantage and get the 'best' that the game has to offer you just need to play DPS. I don't really want to buck the trend anymore. If this is the kind of game design that mmo developers want to make, I don't want to fight the system. I like playing Tanks, but not if it means I'll be significantly poorer than the DPS players. The main plan for me is to just have one character whose only purpose is to tank, while the rest earn cash. Its really a shame we can't adjust on the fly though. I miss the days in the game where it was possible to swap roles. This is one area where TSW and DCUO has this game beat.

Ezareth wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Where is the "Sorc shield is fine, its the nerf to health that was a mistake" option?

I just want to highlight this since in case it was overlooked by players here.

I used to run with 3700 hitpoints and 2400 magicka in 1.5.

In 1.7 now I run with 18,000 hitpoints and 41,000 magicka.

The issue isn't that Hardened Ward scales off of magicka. The issue is health was nerfed into oblivion which only leaves you with the option of maximizing your primary resource pool instead.. The 1.5 Multiplier would make far more sense than the 1.1 multiplier they made it now.

This is definitely part of the problem, and my point with damage scaling off of magic/stamina being a big mistake. I still feel they should go back to a system where the pool represents how many times you can fire an ability, and not how much damage that ability does AS WELL AS how many times you can fire it. They simultaneously nerfed health. There were mistakes all around. The fix is rather complicated if they want to keep the magic/stamina damage scaling, which is why I think this is really the best option. If they don't go this route though they really need to rethink the role of the Health stat in the game.

Cloak OP. (sarcasm)

I think it should, but then sorc shields would be crap, as they have to go heavy into mana to make their core abilities work. its a tricky issue. A conundrum perhaps?

Or, ZOS could fix the shield stacking issue in general without messing with one class. Make spells scale off of spell damage and not the amount of mana one can have, same with stamina. The main reason why shield stacking is an issue(imo anyway) is that a player can use damage shields to amass a 2nd health bar, AND still have high offense. Linking shield power to its corresponding "Damage type
so to speak, would force people using shields to choose between high offense and high defense, not have both at once. you can have high offence with high spell power, but your resources would be low, preventing spamming. The game of course would have to be redesigned in certain areas to make this relationship work.... so idk:( Only brainstorming of course

you should add a "neutral" button. My hatred of shield stacking, combined with the fact I try to avoid calling for a class nerf, makes choosing a side on this poll a bit unfair for me. but oh well, i have choosen

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think all Tanking buffs should scale from health, and not stamina or magicka.

Your mistake is associating wards with tanking buffs.

Tanking is having high HP, mitigation and the ability to block loads. Wards take unmitigated damage and you gain 0 benefits from blocking while having a ward up. Because the ward takes all the damage unmitigated anyway and if you block you just waste stamina of which you have little to begin with.

In all games I know wards or damage shields are the defense mechanic of magic classes, not tanks. Which is why I said that nerfing Igneous Shield and Blazing shield the way they did (to scale of HP only) made no sense because they just gimped the light armor DK and Templar massively to the point they are hardly playable outside of big groups.

The reason why tanks became irrelevant is not so much because of the block nerf, they can still block plenty from what I see. The problem is 50% damage reduction which means unless you are built for burst damage you can't kill *** in cyrodiil any more. Before they could block and also deal enough damage to kill people. Not any more.

Yet still you have gankers 1-shotting people all over the place so that still did not get solved with the battle spirit nerf. Nerfing the Sorc survivability further will turn dichotomy to monotony where everyone just plays rogue because that's the only effective build left

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I think all Tanking buffs should scale from health, and not stamina or magicka.

Your mistake is associating wards with tanking buffs.

Tanking is having high HP, mitigation and the ability to block loads. Wards take unmitigated damage and you gain 0 benefits from blocking while having a ward up. Because the ward takes all the damage unmitigated anyway and if you block you just waste stamina of which you have little to begin with.

In all games I know wards or damage shields are the defense mechanic of magic classes, not tanks. Which is why I said that nerfing Igneous Shield and Blazing shield the way they did (to scale of HP only) made no sense because they just gimped the light armor DK and Templar massively to the point they are hardly playable outside of big groups.

The reason why tanks became irrelevant is not so much because of the block nerf, they can still block plenty from what I see. The problem is 50% damage reduction which means unless you are built for burst damage you can't kill *** in cyrodiil any more. Before they could block and also deal enough damage to kill people. Not any more.

Yet still you have gankers 1-shotting people all over the place so that still did not get solved with the battle spirit nerf. Nerfing the Sorc survivability further will turn dichotomy to monotony where everyone just plays rogue because that's the only effective build left

That would be great if the Tank role had to commit to its mitigations in a way that other builds could not. The problem comes with damage dealing builds being able to get at or near-cap resistances, as well as infinite shields. The problem comes with Tanks being nothing more than a health sponge, particularly in this latest iteration of the game. You're right a tank can block a lot, but if they do so they really can't do much of anything else, again pointing to the damage sponge issue. I really think if magic is going to scale magic damage, and stamina is going to scale weapon damage, then health should scale mitigation and quite possibly light/heavy attacks & bash/block effects. The big picture doesn't look good. I've seen this happen on other mmo's before, where DPS becomes king, and if you want to take advantage and get the 'best' that the game has to offer you just need to play DPS. I don't really want to buck the trend anymore. If this is the kind of game design that mmo developers want to make, I don't want to fight the system. I like playing Tanks, but not if it means I'll be significantly poorer than the DPS players. The main plan for me is to just have one character whose only purpose is to tank, while the rest earn cash. Its really a shame we can't adjust on the fly though. I miss the days in the game where it was possible to swap roles. This is one area where TSW and DCUO has this game beat.

Actually, I don't have a problem with tanks only being able to deal very low damage. I want them to be able to take tons of it as they were able to in 1.5. And I am not talking about fotm dmg builds but actual tanks with high survivability and low damage.
The blocking nerf was a huge (and completely unnessecary) hit against that kind of tanking in PvP, but it's just the tip of the iceberg. Lower healthpools, static ult generation, blocking cost, armor passives not working with less than 5 pieces of one type, no blocking while feared, no tanking jewelry in v16 (Endurance crap because of blocking nerf).
And loads of nerfs to tanking skills: Standard, Magma Armor, Igneous Shield, Cinder Storm, Reflective Scales, Talons. Eclipse, Blinding Flashes, Blazing Shield, Radiant Aura. Veil of Blades and Siphoning Attacks. For Sorc, even though he couldn't tank in 1.5 really: Absorption Field, Volatile Familiar and Critical Surge.
The buff system, providing even more nerfs to effected skills, Boundless Storm, Bound Aegis, Surge being Sorc examples.
Nerfs to passives like the NB's Transfer. The CS having no reduce physical dmg passive...

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Hardened ward on its own isnt too much of an issue, but the shieldstacking is, only one shield active at any one time would be a good change imo.

Need to change healing ward to something else then as it´s the only available burst singletarget heal for non templars.

Dunno, I critheal with blessing of restoration for some ~7k wich is 1/3 of my total hp. Its quite bursty if you ask me. If youre at 25% hp and cast healward that ward will be much bigger then your hardward anyway and a pretty strong heal even if you dont have hardward protecting your healward. You can still HoT under healward, the only complaint I have as a sorc is the necessity to use restoration staff to heal yourself.

Near a keep maybe. Mine crits for 6060 with 3162 spelldmg and 34214 magica. That is with a chance of 32% to crit so my average healing is around ~4500 for that spell. I would not call that a burstheal under any circumstance.

olsborg wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Hardened ward on its own isnt too much of an issue, but the shieldstacking is, only one shield active at any one time would be a good change imo.

Need to change healing ward to something else then as it´s the only available burst singletarget heal for non templars.

Dunno, I critheal with blessing of restoration for some ~7k wich is 1/3 of my total hp. Its quite bursty if you ask me. If youre at 25% hp and cast healward that ward will be much bigger then your hardward anyway and a pretty strong heal even if you dont have hardward protecting your healward. You can still HoT under healward, the only complaint I have as a sorc is the necessity to use restoration staff to heal yourself.

I don't use a resto staff and heal myself just fine. Sure, resto makes it easier but it is also a crutch that has some weaknesses too.