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Should Sorc shields scale of health?
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Masuimi✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?0 -
Masuimi✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?
Edit:
Let's give Templar a passive skill that reduces ult cost by 15% , and then lets raise all templar ult costs by 15%. Will that make you happy and OP now too?
Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.1 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
The screenshots of 45k hitting crystal frags Saya otherwise, tell me which stam ability does that much damage, as even the highest possible damage on a stamplar, with the single hardest hitting stam skill in the game, with a maximum of FOUR procs can only hit about 35k .
Hence why sorcerers are finishing vet maelstrom left right and center, just spam ward and frags =win.
I regularly crit for 76K on my nightblade, what is a 45K Crystal frag to me?
No Sorc is critting for 45K in PvP *OR* PvE unless there are some stupid mechanics involved that are no probably or likely like a PvE Debuff on a mob or somerhing that ups your damage.
I regularly see larger wrecking blows crits on my Stamblade crit for more than my Crystal frag *procs* on my Sorc and my Sorc is running Shadow Mundus and 60 CPs into crit damage with 300 more spellpower than my NB has weapon power who is still using Warrior.
What skill is hitting for 76k in one hit?
Far as I've ever recieved the highest a suprise attack has ever hit me for is 9k, and an 11k wrecking blow, with crystal frags hitting me for 14-15k in PVP .
That's including the fact that in light armor, with some passives I've got 14k MORE spell resist than physical resist.1 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
It doesn't balance out though. For it to be balance the Stamina Sorcerer has to be worse at something than the Stamina Templar. Let's compare:
Who heals best? Stamina Sorc can use Rally/Vigor and Critical Surge for heals. Templar can use Rally/Vigor but no passives effect it. Advantage: Stamina Sorcerer.
Who deals damage better: I'd put them both pretty close here except that Biting Jabs misses a lot so maybe a slight advantage to the Sorc.
Who has better mobility: Easily the sorcerer.
Who has the longer lasting armor spell. Sorcerer.
Who has better passive resource regeneration. Sorcerer.
Should I keep going?
Who has better AOE CC? DING DING DING, Sorcerer.
Where is the Templar identity? If you choose Stamina Templar where is my role?
Biting Jabs and Binding Javelin can not be the only reason to chose a stamina templar.1 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?
Edit:
Let's give Templar a passive skill that reduces ult cost by 15% , and then lets raise all templar ult costs by 15%. Will that make you happy and OP now too?
Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
Except most classes use ultimates that aren't in the skill tree. My templar uses meteor and dawnbraker of smiting , which cost significantly less for a sorcerer to use. Is that balanced?1 -
Masuimi✭✭✭Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
It doesn't balance out though. For it to be balance the Stamina Sorcerer has to be worse at something than the Stamina Templar. Let's compare:
Who heals best? Stamina Sorc can use Rally/Vigor and Critical Surge for heals. Templar can use Rally/Vigor but no passives effect it. Advantage: Stamina Sorcerer.
Who deals damage better: I'd put them both pretty close here except that Biting Jabs misses a lot so maybe a slight advantage to the Sorc.
Who has better mobility: Easily the sorcerer.
Who has the longer lasting armor spell. Sorcerer.
Who has better passive resource regeneration. Sorcerer.
Should I keep going?
Who has better AOE CC? DING DING DING, Sorcerer.
Where is the Templar identity? If you choose Stamina Templar where is my role?
Biting Jabs and Binding Javelin can not be the only reason to chose a stamina templar.
Wasn't this thread about Magicka sorc shield. Why are u bringing up Stamina now?
Also, what AOE/CC does a stam sorceror have that a templar doesnt?0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'
Wasn't this thread about Magicka sorc shield. Why are u bringing up Stamina now?
Also, what AOE/CC does a stam sorceror have that a templar doesnt?
Encase I believe is an AOE bind, rather useful.
The reason the argument shifted is because I am arguing for resources being separated from dmg, so stacking MP would no longer increase your shield just your available resource pool.
I am advocating spells scale on spell power only and stamina skills scale on wep power only so other classes can benefit from being able to use more than just 1 resource. My argument is that it is unfair to diversity to allow any build, Magic Sorc/magic temp etc, so much power from only stacking MP.
I am not in favor of changing ward to scale on HP, I just voted wrong.0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?
You actually consider overload an expensive ultimate? Funny. Negate & Atronach aren't so expensive for what they do either. Lets suppose you are right though, and class ultimates cost more to make up for this fact (I'm not convinced). Explain the 15% reduction to Bat warm, Dawnbreaker, Meteor, War Horn, Barrier, Werewolf, etc etc. Remember my response is with regard to Stamina build viability on a Sorc (Someone made the point Sorcs were only good for magicka dps). Overload is Cheap, and does excellent damage if you are a stamina build (actually higher than if you were a magicka build btw). A strong Stamina build Sorc is probably going to be using something like Overload on one bar, and Flawless on the other, both of which are spammable. Even at face value I fail to see how it is superficial.
Instead of treating this place like an open forum to discuss how we think things could be better, everyone makes this a bazaar of ideas, where we haggle and (white) lie to each other about the balance of things. My only point in listing all those passives was to make it patently clear that Stamina Sorcerers are by no means the black sheep in the Stamina DPS world. A friend of mine on the EU plays a badass Redguard Stamina Sorc that won't stop.
To answer your point directly about the cost reduction, I simply disagree. Templar Ultimate cost reduction is 4%, and 4% for mag/stamina costs, for example. Compare ultimates between the two classes. Sorcerers can make the best usage of out of class ultimates because of their cost reduction, and in the confines of the point I was making, it is highly likely that they will be using Flawless Dawnbreaker, Ice Comet, or Overload. If you want to compare the other classes, DK have ultimates that fuel their resources, and resources that fuel their ultimates, so they function completely differently here. Nightblades are based heavily on sapping and regeneration, and have a strong ultimate generator in the form of the assassination ultimate. In some respect, I recognize we're dealing with apples and oranges, but how can you say Sorcerer is ONLY a Magicka class in light of the points I typed above?US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...
"Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that." (Yes every class stacks almost 1 resource exclusively. I have a problem with this.)
My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. (How many Stamina skills do you use? None? Thought so.)
*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina/health build. (This is my point. There is literally no option to diversify or you ruin your build.)
Thank you for your response, I have enjoyed debating this issue.
I've already mentioned that I slot defensive stance(A stamina ability) and I use it constantly. Half of my stamina consumption goes into that, which is why I have increased regen. The min/max sorc's you're talking about with huge magicka pools die to me because they are glass cannons with no utility in their build, just damage. In 1.6 I ran Stamina reduction enchants on my jewelry and would continue to do that had they not simultaneously nerfed spell damage on sets while buffing it on enchants.
If you PvPed with any measure of skill or knowledge you'd understand what I'm talking about, there is no debate happening here.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
The screenshots of 45k hitting crystal frags Saya otherwise, tell me which stam ability does that much damage, as even the highest possible damage on a stamplar, with the single hardest hitting stam skill in the game, with a maximum of FOUR procs can only hit about 35k .
Hence why sorcerers are finishing vet maelstrom left right and center, just spam ward and frags =win.
I regularly crit for 76K on my nightblade, what is a 45K Crystal frag to me?
No Sorc is critting for 45K in PvP *OR* PvE unless there are some stupid mechanics involved that are no probably or likely like a PvE Debuff on a mob or somerhing that ups your damage.
I regularly see larger wrecking blows crits on my Stamblade crit for more than my Crystal frag *procs* on my Sorc and my Sorc is running Shadow Mundus and 60 CPs into crit damage with 300 more spellpower than my NB has weapon power who is still using Warrior.
What skill is hitting for 76k in one hit?
Far as I've ever recieved the highest a suprise attack has ever hit me for is 9k, and an 11k wrecking blow, with crystal frags hitting me for 14-15k in PVP .
That's including the fact that in light armor, with some passives I've got 14k MORE spell resist than physical resist.
Wrecking blow, from Stealth with Camo hunter on a Daedra. 76K on my marked target every time.
Your 45K Crystal frag crit if it ever happened didn't happen in PvP, so it's apples to apples.
In PvP I've had several 17K Wrecking blows that have killed me and I'm not a vampire. My Crystal Fragments only crit for 10-11K but my Overload crits for 15K because that's how I'm built.Edited by Ezareth on November 6, 2015 9:49PMPermanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
FriedEggSandwich✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
The screenshots of 45k hitting crystal frags Saya otherwise, tell me which stam ability does that much damage, as even the highest possible damage on a stamplar, with the single hardest hitting stam skill in the game, with a maximum of FOUR procs can only hit about 35k .
Hence why sorcerers are finishing vet maelstrom left right and center, just spam ward and frags =win.
I regularly crit for 76K on my nightblade, what is a 45K Crystal frag to me?
No Sorc is critting for 45K in PvP *OR* PvE unless there are some stupid mechanics involved that are no probably or likely like a PvE Debuff on a mob or somerhing that ups your damage.
I regularly see larger wrecking blows crits on my Stamblade crit for more than my Crystal frag *procs* on my Sorc and my Sorc is running Shadow Mundus and 60 CPs into crit damage with 300 more spellpower than my NB has weapon power who is still using Warrior.
What skill is hitting for 76k in one hit?
Far as I've ever recieved the highest a suprise attack has ever hit me for is 9k, and an 11k wrecking blow, with crystal frags hitting me for 14-15k in PVP .
That's including the fact that in light armor, with some passives I've got 14k MORE spell resist than physical resist.
I don't believe those numbers. As a sorc I have 3k spell damage and 33k magicka and 312cp and my frags crits for 8k in pvp. I don't use entropy/degeneration which would add another 20% damage from might of the guild passive, making frags 11k at the most. Post a screenshot of a 15k frags or I don't believe you, sorry.PC | EU0 -
Masuimi✭✭✭
Wasn't this thread about Magicka sorc shield. Why are u bringing up Stamina now?
Also, what AOE/CC does a stam sorceror have that a templar doesnt?
Encase I believe is an AOE bind, rather useful.
The reason the argument shifted is because I am arguing for resources being separated from dmg, so stacking MP would no longer increase your shield just your available resource pool.
I am advocating spells scale on spell power only and stamina skills scale on wep power only so other classes can benefit from being able to use more than just 1 resource. My argument is that it is unfair to diversity to allow any build, Magic Sorc/magic temp etc, so much power from only stacking MP.
I am not in favor of changing ward to scale on HP, I just voted wrong.
Do you realize how insanely easy it is to stack weapon dmg vs spell damage?
I mean, i like the idea, but it would take huge changes across the board to make this viable.Edited by Masuimi on November 6, 2015 9:49PM0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
It doesn't balance out though. For it to be balance the Stamina Sorcerer has to be worse at something than the Stamina Templar. Let's compare:
Who heals best? Stamina Sorc can use Rally/Vigor and Critical Surge for heals. Templar can use Rally/Vigor but no passives effect it. Advantage: Stamina Sorcerer.
Who deals damage better: I'd put them both pretty close here except that Biting Jabs misses a lot so maybe a slight advantage to the Sorc.
Who has better mobility: Easily the sorcerer.
Who has the longer lasting armor spell. Sorcerer.
Who has better passive resource regeneration. Sorcerer.
Should I keep going?
Who has better AOE CC? DING DING DING, Sorcerer.
Where is the Templar identity? If you choose Stamina Templar where is my role?
Biting Jabs and Binding Javelin can not be the only reason to chose a stamina templar.
Who has the better survivabiliy: Templar
Who has the better healing? Templar
Who has the better group utility? Templar
Should I keep going?
Where is the Stamina Sorc identity? Wrecking blow and streak can not be the only reason to choose a stamina sorc.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'
"Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that." (Yes every class stacks almost 1 resource exclusively. I have a problem with this.)
My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. (How many Stamina skills do you use? None? Thought so.)
*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina/health build. (This is my point. There is literally no option to diversify or you ruin your build.)
Thank you for your response, I have enjoyed debating this issue.
I've already mentioned that I slot defensive stance(A stamina ability) and I use it constantly. Half of my stamina consumption goes into that, which is why I have increased regen. The min/max sorc's you're talking about with huge magicka pools die to me because they are glass cannons with no utility in their build, just damage. In 1.6 I ran Stamina reduction enchants on my jewelry and would continue to do that had they not simultaneously nerfed spell damage on sets while buffing it on enchants.
If you PvPed with any measure of skill or knowledge you'd understand what I'm talking about, there is no debate happening here.
There is no debate, because you aren't focusing on the points we are making. You are apparently comfortable with every change ZoS makes to the game, and happy to just move your build to whatever is the FotM, quality of the game be damned. At least that is how you are coming across in this conversation to me. The way things appear, there is no debate happening in large part because you won't face some of our points at face value. Every claim you have made has been circuitous at best, and with a desire to seemingly latch on to whatever Strength you feel you are going to lose for your Sorcerer. As far as I can tell you play 2 characters, a nightblade and a sorcerer. Congratulations. How familiar are you with the other 2 classes, I mean really familiar? I'm not talking about dealing with them as an opponent, but actually playing them. This is exactly what you are asking of us, and I happen to have experience playing all 4. You can dance around the issue all you like, but the core of the problem here is the issue with DPS vs. Mitigation in this game. Mitigation is functioning in a wierd and haphazard way, which you admit when it hurts you (Streak nerfs, cloak nerfs) but somehow dance around when anyone discusses it with another class. Instead of bragging about superior knowledge, I think you need to show up or shut up.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
Masuimi✭✭✭As for your other points, they appear to be valid. I honestly don't know enough about stamina sorc to offer good input on it. But i know a lot about magi sorc, and forcing them to split their skill points would destroy the class.0
-
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?
Edit:
Let's give Templar a passive skill that reduces ult cost by 15% , and then lets raise all templar ult costs by 15%. Will that make you happy and OP now too?
Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
Except most classes use ultimates that aren't in the skill tree. My templar uses meteor and dawnbraker of smiting , which cost significantly less for a sorcerer to use. Is that balanced?You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
The screenshots of 45k hitting crystal frags Saya otherwise, tell me which stam ability does that much damage, as even the highest possible damage on a stamplar, with the single hardest hitting stam skill in the game, with a maximum of FOUR procs can only hit about 35k .
Hence why sorcerers are finishing vet maelstrom left right and center, just spam ward and frags =win.
I regularly crit for 76K on my nightblade, what is a 45K Crystal frag to me?
No Sorc is critting for 45K in PvP *OR* PvE unless there are some stupid mechanics involved that are no probably or likely like a PvE Debuff on a mob or somerhing that ups your damage.
I regularly see larger wrecking blows crits on my Stamblade crit for more than my Crystal frag *procs* on my Sorc and my Sorc is running Shadow Mundus and 60 CPs into crit damage with 300 more spellpower than my NB has weapon power who is still using Warrior.
What skill is hitting for 76k in one hit?
Far as I've ever recieved the highest a suprise attack has ever hit me for is 9k, and an 11k wrecking blow, with crystal frags hitting me for 14-15k in PVP .
That's including the fact that in light armor, with some passives I've got 14k MORE spell resist than physical resist.
Wrecking blow, from Stealth with Camo hunter on a Daedra. 76K on my marked target every time.
Your 45K Crystal frag crit if it ever happened didn't happen in PvP, so it's apples to apples.
In PvP I've had several 17K Wrecking blows that have killed me and I'm not a vampire. My Crystal Fragments only crit for 10-11K but my Overload crits for 15K because that's how I'm built.
You're talking about a stealth modifier though, with a Camo hunter proc, I'm talking about a straight up single target hit, that's a spammable ability.
There's actually a thread on here from about a month ago of someone screenshotting the 45k hit, then other min/max builds showing even higher numbers, no stealth damage buff, no Camo hunter proc. A straight up crit in the face.
I would expect wrecking blow to hit me far far harder, yet it doesnt, I'm purely speaking of death recaps when participating in dueling events against well skilled/built players. Wrecking blow I often seen for 12k odd, but even at 15k I could expect it.
My problem is, with 14k more spell resist, that's a total of 30% more mitigation, yet the skills are hitting me just as hard as skills that have 30% less mitigation against.
I've fought against n00b sorcerers and yes they are easy to kill, as anyone class is, and I've beaten some downright good ones too, I've lost to plenty too, but I can't see how a class should have cheap spammable skills that out hit everything else, from range.0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?
Edit:
Let's give Templar a passive skill that reduces ult cost by 15% , and then lets raise all templar ult costs by 15%. Will that make you happy and OP now too?
Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
Except most classes use ultimates that aren't in the skill tree. My templar uses meteor and dawnbraker of smiting , which cost significantly less for a sorcerer to use. Is that balanced?
Bad ults, for killing bads. Who cares? Templar gets reduced ultimate and reduced stamina costs as well as increased ultimate generation that far outweighs the Sorc ultimate cost reduction. Are you really making this argument?
What is this thread about again? You guys are foundering all over as you throw everything but the kitchen sink at sorcs for some absurd reason.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube3 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'
Wasn't this thread about Magicka sorc shield. Why are u bringing up Stamina now?
Also, what AOE/CC does a stam sorceror have that a templar doesnt?
Encase I believe is an AOE bind, rather useful.
The reason the argument shifted is because I am arguing for resources being separated from dmg, so stacking MP would no longer increase your shield just your available resource pool.
I am advocating spells scale on spell power only and stamina skills scale on wep power only so other classes can benefit from being able to use more than just 1 resource. My argument is that it is unfair to diversity to allow any build, Magic Sorc/magic temp etc, so much power from only stacking MP.
I am not in favor of changing ward to scale on HP, I just voted wrong.
Do you realize how insanely easy it is to stack weapon dmg vs spell damage?
I mean, i like the idea, but it would take huge changes across the board to make this viable.
I agree this is a problem, but at least by limiting the dials we as the player can turn, it would allow ZoS the capacity to actually manage these numbers better.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...
Wasn't this thread about Magicka sorc shield. Why are u bringing up Stamina now?
Also, what AOE/CC does a stam sorceror have that a templar doesnt?
Encase I believe is an AOE bind, rather useful.
The reason the argument shifted is because I am arguing for resources being separated from dmg, so stacking MP would no longer increase your shield just your available resource pool.
I am advocating spells scale on spell power only and stamina skills scale on wep power only so other classes can benefit from being able to use more than just 1 resource. My argument is that it is unfair to diversity to allow any build, Magic Sorc/magic temp etc, so much power from only stacking MP.
I am not in favor of changing ward to scale on HP, I just voted wrong.
No stam sorc worthy of the name would use Encase. That's a magicka sorc ability. Perhaps you should start a different thread to argument the merits of this idea.
Edited by Ezareth on November 6, 2015 9:56PMPermanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
Masuimi✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?
Edit:
Let's give Templar a passive skill that reduces ult cost by 15% , and then lets raise all templar ult costs by 15%. Will that make you happy and OP now too?
Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
Except most classes use ultimates that aren't in the skill tree. My templar uses meteor and dawnbraker of smiting , which cost significantly less for a sorcerer to use. Is that balanced?You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
The screenshots of 45k hitting crystal frags Saya otherwise, tell me which stam ability does that much damage, as even the highest possible damage on a stamplar, with the single hardest hitting stam skill in the game, with a maximum of FOUR procs can only hit about 35k .
Hence why sorcerers are finishing vet maelstrom left right and center, just spam ward and frags =win.
I regularly crit for 76K on my nightblade, what is a 45K Crystal frag to me?
No Sorc is critting for 45K in PvP *OR* PvE unless there are some stupid mechanics involved that are no probably or likely like a PvE Debuff on a mob or somerhing that ups your damage.
I regularly see larger wrecking blows crits on my Stamblade crit for more than my Crystal frag *procs* on my Sorc and my Sorc is running Shadow Mundus and 60 CPs into crit damage with 300 more spellpower than my NB has weapon power who is still using Warrior.
What skill is hitting for 76k in one hit?
Far as I've ever recieved the highest a suprise attack has ever hit me for is 9k, and an 11k wrecking blow, with crystal frags hitting me for 14-15k in PVP .
That's including the fact that in light armor, with some passives I've got 14k MORE spell resist than physical resist.
Wrecking blow, from Stealth with Camo hunter on a Daedra. 76K on my marked target every time.
Your 45K Crystal frag crit if it ever happened didn't happen in PvP, so it's apples to apples.
In PvP I've had several 17K Wrecking blows that have killed me and I'm not a vampire. My Crystal Fragments only crit for 10-11K but my Overload crits for 15K because that's how I'm built.
You're talking about a stealth modifier though, with a Camo hunter proc, I'm talking about a straight up single target hit, that's a spammable ability.
There's actually a thread on here from about a month ago of someone screenshotting the 45k hit, then other min/max builds showing even higher numbers, no stealth damage buff, no Camo hunter proc. A straight up crit in the face.
I would expect wrecking blow to hit me far far harder, yet it doesnt, I'm purely speaking of death recaps when participating in dueling events against well skilled/built players. Wrecking blow I often seen for 12k odd, but even at 15k I could expect it.
My problem is, with 14k more spell resist, that's a total of 30% more mitigation, yet the skills are hitting me just as hard as skills that have 30% less mitigation against.
I've fought against n00b sorcerers and yes they are easy to kill, as anyone class is, and I've beaten some downright good ones too, I've lost to plenty too, but I can't see how a class should have cheap spammable skills that out hit everything else, from range.
Crystal frags is not more spammable than any other ability in the game (not including ultimates). Actually it has a pretty long cast time too. Unless you're saying that its proc is spammable which is also not true.0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »You do realize that everyone whos defense is not reliant on resource only but has the BENEFIT of also scaling with weapon / spelldmg would profit tremendously from that change?
Can you imagine a stam class with high weapondmg high reg und high hp?
Do you really think a Magicka Sorcerer wouldn't gain just as much from being able to stack some HP and Stamina for extra dodges and blocks? The point is your whole CLASS becomes useable, you can still stack one resource and spell power or wep damage for maximum dps but now you'd be able to spec for some defense without completely ruining your build. Those skills that scale on HP would no longer be useless. Hell you could even use some valuable stamina skills on your magicka class without destroying your build. Yes it would require tweaking, but it's obvious the system as it is now too heavily penalizes hybridization and favors only raw DPS which is why the classes that specialize in Burst (Sorc and NB) are the kings in PVP.
I have a Hybrid Sorc build (with high stamina regen and sword and board with defensive posture) and I can hold my own against or beat anyone.
Hybridization only hurts when it is stupid hybridization.
@Ezareth I respect you, you normally make a lot of sense and use well reasoned arguments. But what the hell is this? You know damn well your build is not a hybrid. Way to completely avoid the issue at hand and stick your head in the sand.
Do you really think it's balanced and fair to be able to stack only magic and get the best mobility, best burst and best shields in the game for competitive pvp? Be honest. Adding a little stamina for some break free is not hybridization. Hybridization would be a Stamina Templar having enough magic to still use his heals without losing all his dmg. As it stands right now that is impossible because they removed the soft caps on stats.
What I am suggesting, removing dmg scaling from resource pools would ACTUALLY allow hybrids to work. They would not be as strong as a single stat, focused, build but at least they wouldn't be gimped.
You are all missing the point. Sorc is BALANCED around investing all points in magicka.
If sorc does not invest all points in magicka he is no longer competitive vs stamina builds.
Would you rather a sorc invest points in both magicka/HP, and have all sorc skills/magic abilities damage get buffed to make up for that?
Because that's what would have to happen for sorc to remain competitive.
Sorc DPS is already severely lacking compared to stamina build (WITH MAX MAGICKA BUILD, not including overload).
Really? Are we playing the same game? Lets see.
1) Passive that gives 5% mag redux, 5% stam redux, 15% Ultimate redux.
2) Passive that gives 20% health/stam regen (woah)
3) Disintegrate is like a cool version of burning light that procs off your boundless pretty lazily.
4) Bound Armaments increases max stamina and heavy attack damage.
5) Expert Mage Passive increases wpn/spll damage by 2% per sorc ability slotted: Its very easy (and normal) to slot 3 Sorc abilities, which already puts the Sorc on par with the Templar bonus. (boundless + bound armaments + Crit surge come to mind, exchange might be a good possibility for some builds, and then there are the ults which are definitely good). You can easily stack more weapon damage by doing 3 sorc skills + Flawless, with 2 weapon skills.
I don't really see how Sorcerers are by any means inferior when it comes to Stamina DPS, certainly not in the current build of the game.
Do you realize that these passives are more superficial than anything?? For example.. if sorc didn't have ULT reduced by 15% passive, the ults would just have to have their costs flat reduced by 15% in order to stay competitive. These pretty % on the passives are all taken into consideration when the skills were made. How do u not understand that?
Edit:
Let's give Templar a passive skill that reduces ult cost by 15% , and then lets raise all templar ult costs by 15%. Will that make you happy and OP now too?
Most sorc abilities cost more magicka than other classes, and this is largely due to these OP passives that sorc have. It all balances out my friend.
Except most classes use ultimates that aren't in the skill tree. My templar uses meteor and dawnbraker of smiting , which cost significantly less for a sorcerer to use. Is that balanced?
Bad ults, for killing bads. Who cares? Templar gets reduced ultimate and reduced stamina costs as well as increased ultimate generation that far outweighs the Sorc ultimate cost reduction. Are you really making this argument?
What is this thread about again? You guys are foundering all over as you throw everything but the kitchen sink at sorcs for some absurd reason.
Erm templars get 4% reduction, and a 10% regen buff for slotting a skill that's useless in pvp.
Sorcerers get 20%? Regen bonuses, and 15% reduction, so nearly 4x our cost reduction.
Wouldn't call dawnbraker bad, unblockable, undodgeable, uselsss for perma dodgers and vamps/werewolves.
Meteor is very situtstional, as is soul assault, but when our main class ability (jabs/sweep) doesn't work on shields, so shield stackers gain a huge advantage, need something to help bring down those 15k shields...0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'
Wasn't this thread about Magicka sorc shield. Why are u bringing up Stamina now?
Also, what AOE/CC does a stam sorceror have that a templar doesnt?
Encase I believe is an AOE bind, rather useful.
The reason the argument shifted is because I am arguing for resources being separated from dmg, so stacking MP would no longer increase your shield just your available resource pool.
I am advocating spells scale on spell power only and stamina skills scale on wep power only so other classes can benefit from being able to use more than just 1 resource. My argument is that it is unfair to diversity to allow any build, Magic Sorc/magic temp etc, so much power from only stacking MP.
I am not in favor of changing ward to scale on HP, I just voted wrong.
No stam sorc worthy of the name would use Encase. That's a magicka sorc ability. Perhaps you should start a different thread to argument the merits of this idea.
Have to agree here, Encase is way too costly, and a Stam Sorc is going to be relying on other magicka dumps like Boundless/Surge. The Stam Sorc is probably more likely to be juggling people with WB, I reckon.
Edit: If someone wanted to use a class cc I could POSSIBLY envision someone using Defensive Rune, it might be hard to squeeze into a build (it also requires a 1.5 second cast time). Defensive Posture (the stun morph not the healing morph - May have the exact name wrong) is instant cast, stamina based, and could result in similar stun effect as well as mitigation.Edited by dodgehopper_ESO on November 6, 2015 10:07PMUS/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'Who has the better survivability: Magic Templar. We are comparing stamina so no, Sorc heals and defends better.
Who has the better healing? Magic Templar. Once again you ignore my actual argument. Stamina Sorc heals better than Stamina Templar. Even you just admitted Templar should heal better than Sorc, but it doesn't.
Who has the better group utility? Magic Templar. Yet again you avoid my point. I am against Magic Templar being able to only stack MP also...c'mon @Ezareth I know you are better than this.
Should I keep going? Yes because you ignored my actual point.
No stam sorc worthy of the name would use Encase. That's a magicka sorc ability. Perhaps you should start a different thread to argument the merits of this idea.
So your argument here, is no self respecting Stamina Sorc would use it because it uses magic despite the fact it would still bind for 4.5 secs like it's supposed to WITH NO MP INVESTMENT?
Hey guess what, Templar has no AOE CC and our only defense (heals) don't work on a stamina build AT ALL. At least you have the OPTION of using encase.
You have put up great suggestions in the past and offer a great debate partner, I have seen you evaluate things better than this.
In your opinion regarding game balance, you are totally okay with being able to stack only one resource to get everything you need as a Sorcerer?
Will you at least admit that Sorcerer and Nightblade are better designed for the way stats scale currently than Dragon Knight and Templar?
And you are right, there's no point debating this anymore as you don't want to see our points anyway. I can't debate someone who won't look at objective facts without bias.0 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »
"Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that." (Yes every class stacks almost 1 resource exclusively. I have a problem with this.)
My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. (How many Stamina skills do you use? None? Thought so.)
*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina/health build. (This is my point. There is literally no option to diversify or you ruin your build.)
Thank you for your response, I have enjoyed debating this issue.
I've already mentioned that I slot defensive stance(A stamina ability) and I use it constantly. Half of my stamina consumption goes into that, which is why I have increased regen. The min/max sorc's you're talking about with huge magicka pools die to me because they are glass cannons with no utility in their build, just damage. In 1.6 I ran Stamina reduction enchants on my jewelry and would continue to do that had they not simultaneously nerfed spell damage on sets while buffing it on enchants.
If you PvPed with any measure of skill or knowledge you'd understand what I'm talking about, there is no debate happening here.
There is no debate, because you aren't focusing on the points we are making. You are apparently comfortable with every change ZoS makes to the game, and happy to just move your build to whatever is the FotM, quality of the game be damned. At least that is how you are coming across in this conversation to me. The way things appear, there is no debate happening in large part because you won't face some of our points at face value. Every claim you have made has been circuitous at best, and with a desire to seemingly latch on to whatever Strength you feel you are going to lose for your Sorcerer. As far as I can tell you play 2 characters, a nightblade and a sorcerer. Congratulations. How familiar are you with the other 2 classes, I mean really familiar? I'm not talking about dealing with them as an opponent, but actually playing them. This is exactly what you are asking of us, and I happen to have experience playing all 4. You can dance around the issue all you like, but the core of the problem here is the issue with DPS vs. Mitigation in this game. Mitigation is functioning in a wierd and haphazard way, which you admit when it hurts you (Streak nerfs, cloak nerfs) but somehow dance around when anyone discusses it with another class. Instead of bragging about superior knowledge, I think you need to show up or shut up.
You're not making any points to focus on because I had more understanding of this game by the time I've played the game for three months than the lot of you have combined. FotM is FotM. You don't even know what that means, and if you had the slightest bit of reading comprehension you'd recognize that my build is certainly not flavor of the month. I have 120 days played on my Sorc and *I* create builds, I don't copy builds or ideas, it goes the other way around. You guys are just throwing whatever you can at the wall here and hoping something sticks, that's the problem with these forum "debates". It's just full of people who limited understanding who do nothing but cry for nerfs because their knowledge is lacking.
What do you mean Mitigation is functioning in a "wierd and haphazard way?" What does that even mean? And what does that have to do with streak nerfs or cloak nerfs? (I don't even use streak or cloak on either of my characters but thanks for throwing those in there for....reasons?).
Congrats on playing 4 characters and knowing nothing about them? I know how to kill DKs and Templars, I know the strengths and weaknesses of both classes pretty well. I don't have knowledge of any particular bugs with certain skills they might experience or other things of that nature that only play the class would reveal. I've Duo PvPed for months now with another skilled templar and have filled in most of my knowledge on the strengths and weaknesses from that. I have the least knowledge of DKs but that is still far more than your average player and I know them well enough to counter them (even when they were at the top of the food chain).Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭No...Just wanted to pop in again and remind you all that it is Annulment + its morphs that make Sorcerers unbalanced atm, not Hardened Ward. Leave Hardened Ward alone and let's talk about how any competent sorc can always burst or tank any other magicka build (other than sorcs) by using Harness/Dampen on top of Hardened Ward, if they can't they need to go practice and try again when they've improved. Either that or use the catch-up system to get enough CP's into Bastion.
Annulment is making sorcs unbalanced, granted exclusively vs magicka builds, but that is still a balance issue. Obviously stamina builds can deal with the shield stack, why would anyone want to make stamina builds bursting sorcs easy-mode? (don't answer that one) Let's deal with the easy-mode switch we have already, which is trololololol Triple H's romping around slamming chairs into other magicka users with little to no risk to themselves. (Hardened + Harness + Healing)
I'm not even totally against shield-stacking, I'm just for any solution to the problem of sorcs being way too tanky vs other magicka builds (without sacrificing damage for that tankiness). If that means shields should be placed on a minor/major system or override one another, I'm for it.Edited by WreckfulAbandon on November 6, 2015 10:22PMPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...There's actually a thread on here from about a month ago of someone screenshotting the 45k hit, then other min/max builds showing even higher numbers, no stealth damage buff, no Camo hunter proc. A straight up crit in the face.
I would expect wrecking blow to hit me far far harder, yet it doesnt, I'm purely speaking of death recaps when participating in dueling events against well skilled/built players. Wrecking blow I often seen for 12k odd, but even at 15k I could expect it.
My problem is, with 14k more spell resist, that's a total of 30% more mitigation, yet the skills are hitting me just as hard as skills that have 30% less mitigation against.
I've fought against n00b sorcerers and yes they are easy to kill, as anyone class is, and I've beaten some downright good ones too, I've lost to plenty too, but I can't see how a class should have cheap spammable skills that out hit everything else, from range.
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162469/17-5k-crystal-frags-ftw/p1
This thread was created back in 1.6 when damage Battlespirit was only -20% instead of -50% and Nirnhoned was providing 100% mitigation. This player (whom I'm friends with) was universally known as the hardest hitting frag caster in PvP.
If you think there are sorcs in today's world of 50% mitgation flinging around 45K Crystal fragments then I really don't know why I'm wasting my time debating you on anything.
14K Resistance works out to less than 21% extra mitigation(670 per % at V16) and higher mitigation is pierced more by sharpened/nirnhoned.Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube1 -
AfkNinja✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'
"You're not making any points to focus on because I had more understanding of this game by the time I've played the game for three months than the lot of you have combined." You claim superior knowledge.
"Congrats on playing 4 characters and knowing nothing about them?" Start insulting instead of refuting valid points.
"I know how to kill DKs and Templars, I know the strengths and weaknesses of both classes pretty well. I don't have knowledge of any particular bugs with certain skills they might experience or other things of that nature that only playing the class would reveal."
I have the least knowledge of DKs but that is still far more than your average player and I know them well enough to counter them.
If you don't want to compare classes and actually debate why are you responding? And then the personal attacks come in, look there is NO reason to resort to that it just makes your argument look weak. This will be my last response. Good luck to you all, hopefully there are balance changes coming we can all look forward too.1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...Erm templars get 4% reduction, and a 10% regen buff for slotting a skill that's useless in pvp.
Sorcerers get 20%? Regen bonuses, and 15% reduction, so nearly 4x our cost reduction.
Wouldn't call dawnbraker bad, unblockable, undodgeable, uselsss for perma dodgers and vamps/werewolves.
Meteor is very situtstional, as is soul assault, but when our main class ability (jabs/sweep) doesn't work on shields, so shield stackers gain a huge advantage, need something to help bring down those 15k shields...
Except Dawnbreak *IS* blockable and it's very predictable when you know your opponent uses it so you can dodge roll behind them (while blocking) when you know they're about to use it on you. Either way, I haven't died to it since 1.6 when it was bugged and the dot hit the same time as the main damage and even then it was rare.
Meteor is a joke as well. Reflectable, blockable (and it is a projectile so you get bonus block value for using a S&B to block if you dont have reflect slotted).
I've already mentioned that I have a 12K damage shield with 100 points into Bastion and 41K Magicka. There only player with a 15K shield is going to be an Emperor.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
Ezareth PvP on Youtube0 -
zornyan✭✭✭✭✭There's actually a thread on here from about a month ago of someone screenshotting the 45k hit, then other min/max builds showing even higher numbers, no stealth damage buff, no Camo hunter proc. A straight up crit in the face.
I would expect wrecking blow to hit me far far harder, yet it doesnt, I'm purely speaking of death recaps when participating in dueling events against well skilled/built players. Wrecking blow I often seen for 12k odd, but even at 15k I could expect it.
My problem is, with 14k more spell resist, that's a total of 30% more mitigation, yet the skills are hitting me just as hard as skills that have 30% less mitigation against.
I've fought against n00b sorcerers and yes they are easy to kill, as anyone class is, and I've beaten some downright good ones too, I've lost to plenty too, but I can't see how a class should have cheap spammable skills that out hit everything else, from range.
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162469/17-5k-crystal-frags-ftw/p1
This thread was created back in 1.6 when damage Battlespirit was only -20% instead of -50% and Nirnhoned was providing 100% mitigation. This player (whom I'm friends with) was universally known as the hardest hitting frag caster in PvP.
If you think there are sorcs in today's world of 50% mitgation flinging around 45K Crystal fragments then I really don't know why I'm wasting my time debating you on anything.
14K Resistance works out to less than 21% extra mitigation(670 per % at V16) and higher mitigation is pierced more by sharpened/nirnhoned.
That's obviously not the thread I mentioned.
It was just over a month ago, well into 1.7, it was someone boasting about 45k frag crits in pve, thanks to sorcerers being able to stack insane spell damage and max magicka, like the one alcast posted that had nearly 6k spell power and 45k magicka with the shadow mundus stone.
My personal death recaps, from within the last few weeks , have shown multiple 15k+ frags, on a build with 30k odd spell resist.
Again, a cheap spammable ability, all whilst being in the comfort of 20k+ worth of stacked shields.1 -
Ezareth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No...Who has the better survivability: Magic Templar. We are comparing stamina so no, Sorc heals and defends better.
Who has the better healing? Magic Templar. Once again you ignore my actual argument. Stamina Sorc heals better than Stamina Templar. Even you just admitted Templar should heal better than Sorc, but it doesn't.
Who has the better group utility? Magic Templar. Yet again you avoid my point. I am against Magic Templar being able to only stack MP also...c'mon @Ezareth I know you are better than this.
Should I keep going? Yes because you ignored my actual point.
No stam sorc worthy of the name would use Encase. That's a magicka sorc ability. Perhaps you should start a different thread to argument the merits of this idea.
So your argument here, is no self respecting Stamina Sorc would use it because it uses magic despite the fact it would still bind for 4.5 secs like it's supposed to WITH NO MP INVESTMENT?
Hey guess what, Templar has no AOE CC and our only defense (heals) don't work on a stamina build AT ALL. At least you have the OPTION of using encase.
You have put up great suggestions in the past and offer a great debate partner, I have seen you evaluate things better than this.
In your opinion regarding game balance, you are totally okay with being able to stack only one resource to get everything you need as a Sorcerer?
Will you at least admit that Sorcerer and Nightblade are better designed for the way stats scale currently than Dragon Knight and Templar?
And you are right, there's no point debating this anymore as you don't want to see our points anyway. I can't debate someone who won't look at objective facts without bias.
A Stamina Sorc has to use his magicka for Streak, Crit Surge, and Boundless Storm. He can't afford to waste both a skill slot and his magicka on rooting his opponents with a magicka ability.
I really don't have the desire to argue the merits of Stamina Templar versus Stamina Sorc because I play neither but I regularly play with the best Stamina Sorc in the game and he would laugh at me suggesting that he slot encase on his bars somewhere.
I'm trying to say just this...you can't stack magicka as the only thing you need as a Sorc. The *only* thing that has changed is when given a choice between magicka and health you always choose magicka. Sorcs that stack magicka to the exclusion of everything else are jokes.
Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
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