zornyan wrote: »

Or here's another example, whilst running around in the sewers one day, I had a friendly sorc/nightblade join me, the nightblade was a stam build, stacking fairly decent amounts of stam/weapon damage, the sorcerer was a min/max build for dps too.

The nightblade, from stealth could do a quick ambush and maybe 2 suprise attacks to rip through the dremora, the sorcerer was one shorting the chill fiends and larger mobs with frags, literally , bang bang bang 3 mobs dead, yet he could also grab a crowd of mobs, stand there with no care in the world, spamming ward and one shorting everything as his frags proc'd.

Or another sorcerer from the EP side that literally one hits people with frag to death, he took out 3 nightblades, each only required a single proc'd frag .

That's such BS. Don't forget I play both classes with Min/max builds.

I 1-shot every dremora in the sewers with wrecking blow all the time with the exception of the elite ones with 120K hitpoints. No crystal fragment oneshots anything other than an imp I'm sorry. These things just aren't possible.

Crystal fragment can't get high enough to 1-shot anyone any more due to battle levelling. Even when you boost it with might of the guild(Which can only be procced with entropy or something other than magelight now) and the crystal fragment proc can still only crit for 15-16K tops. Maybe it could 1shot naked players, but not nightblades in medium armor.

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Or here's another example, whilst running around in the sewers one day, I had a friendly sorc/nightblade join me, the nightblade was a stam build, stacking fairly decent amounts of stam/weapon damage, the sorcerer was a min/max build for dps too.

The nightblade, from stealth could do a quick ambush and maybe 2 suprise attacks to rip through the dremora, the sorcerer was one shorting the chill fiends and larger mobs with frags, literally , bang bang bang 3 mobs dead, yet he could also grab a crowd of mobs, stand there with no care in the world, spamming ward and one shorting everything as his frags proc'd.

Or another sorcerer from the EP side that literally one hits people with frag to death, he took out 3 nightblades, each only required a single proc'd frag .

That's such BS. Don't forget I play both classes with Min/max builds.

I 1-shot every dremora in the sewers with wrecking blow all the time with the exception of the elite ones with 120K hitpoints. No crystal fragment oneshots anything other than an imp I'm sorry. These things just aren't possible.

Crystal fragment can't get high enough to 1-shot anyone any more due to battle levelling. Even when you boost it with might of the guild(Which can only be procced with entropy or something other than magelight now) and the crystal fragment proc can still only crit for 15-16K tops. Maybe it could 1shot naked players, but not nightblades in medium armor.

Well a 45K crit in pve, is 22.5k in pvp, with a couple nirnhoned/sharpened items, that's going to be an easy 16k hit all day long.

You know alcast is the guy making videos where he oneshots people with his DK bow build in pvp? There is a reason why he does it with a stam char.

Ezareth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

"Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that." (Yes every class stacks almost 1 resource exclusively. I have a problem with this.)

My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. (How many Stamina skills do you use? None? Thought so.)

*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina/health build. (This is my point. There is literally no option to diversify or you ruin your build.)

Thank you for your response, I have enjoyed debating this issue.

I've already mentioned that I slot defensive stance(A stamina ability) and I use it constantly. Half of my stamina consumption goes into that, which is why I have increased regen. The min/max sorc's you're talking about with huge magicka pools die to me because they are glass cannons with no utility in their build, just damage. In 1.6 I ran Stamina reduction enchants on my jewelry and would continue to do that had they not simultaneously nerfed spell damage on sets while buffing it on enchants.

If you PvPed with any measure of skill or knowledge you'd understand what I'm talking about, there is no debate happening here.

There is no debate, because you aren't focusing on the points we are making. You are apparently comfortable with every change ZoS makes to the game, and happy to just move your build to whatever is the FotM, quality of the game be damned. At least that is how you are coming across in this conversation to me. The way things appear, there is no debate happening in large part because you won't face some of our points at face value. Every claim you have made has been circuitous at best, and with a desire to seemingly latch on to whatever Strength you feel you are going to lose for your Sorcerer. As far as I can tell you play 2 characters, a nightblade and a sorcerer. Congratulations. How familiar are you with the other 2 classes, I mean really familiar? I'm not talking about dealing with them as an opponent, but actually playing them. This is exactly what you are asking of us, and I happen to have experience playing all 4. You can dance around the issue all you like, but the core of the problem here is the issue with DPS vs. Mitigation in this game. Mitigation is functioning in a wierd and haphazard way, which you admit when it hurts you (Streak nerfs, cloak nerfs) but somehow dance around when anyone discusses it with another class. Instead of bragging about superior knowledge, I think you need to show up or shut up.

You're not making any points to focus on because I had more understanding of this game by the time I've played the game for three months than the lot of you have combined. FotM is FotM. You don't even know what that means, and if you had the slightest bit of reading comprehension you'd recognize that my build is certainly not flavor of the month. I have 120 days played on my Sorc and *I* create builds, I don't copy builds or ideas, it goes the other way around. You guys are just throwing whatever you can at the wall here and hoping something sticks, that's the problem with these forum "debates". It's just full of people who limited understanding who do nothing but cry for nerfs because their knowledge is lacking.

What do you mean Mitigation is functioning in a "wierd and haphazard way?" What does that even mean? And what does that have to do with streak nerfs or cloak nerfs? (I don't even use streak or cloak on either of my characters but thanks for throwing those in there for....reasons?).

Congrats on playing 4 characters and knowing nothing about them? I know how to kill DKs and Templars, I know the strengths and weaknesses of both classes pretty well. I don't have knowledge of any particular bugs with certain skills they might experience or other things of that nature that only play the class would reveal. I've Duo PvPed for months now with another skilled templar and have filled in most of my knowledge on the strengths and weaknesses from that. I have the least knowledge of DKs but that is still far more than your average player and I know them well enough to counter them (even when they were at the top of the food chain).

Ezareth, you really are full of yourself. I'm not knocking your aptitude as a pvp'er and duelist, because you do fine in that. I am knocking your capacity to have a proper discussion. You're so full of yourself you can't realize that broad changes to the game effect abilities in specific. You won't attack this consideration head on, which is the only reason I opted to the Health-Shield side of the debate to begin with. You're so busy puffing yourself up and claiming a superior knowledge base, when I'm not entirely sure that knowledge base exists. I never disagreed with you about shield stacking in particular. I'll tell you this. If you really did pvp in the early game, you would recognize that Sun Shield was SIGNIFICANTLY better than it is now (and it was still quite limited back then, in the sense that you had to press aggressively into melee). For you to say anything otherwise is a boldfaced lie, and considering I know for a fact you've been playing the game for a while, I'm going to opt on the side of deceptiveness. I use to have more respect for you Ezareth, but this is beginning to get ridiculous. I'm not sure why I should be impressed that you know how to kill Templars and DK's, particularly in the current environment. This is your argument? I give you factual information about game mechanics, and you have nothing to say about them, except to say you have a bigger knowledge base.

Lets make it clear. You feel Sorcerers should get the only magic-based Shield. Sorcs have the best self major armor buff, a permanent minor armor buff, the best passive traits to regeneration and reduction, some innate soft heals (that I grant are weaker than a magicka templar, specifically BoL), and the best cost reduction passives. They can also get the highest damage bonus numbers, either for weapon or magic. They have one of the best escape mechanisms, with either a hard cc or a projectile blocker, and their armor also boosts the longest speed buff in the game outside of rapid maneuver. With all that said, you still think hardened ward should be scaled on magicka when other classes have to specifically rely on Health-based shields. This is even to the detriment of the Sorcerer Tank build, which is already in a dire situation in large part thanks to the reduction of the health multiplier and the 0% regen people now obtain while blocking. In the case of Templar it is a 6 second shield, part of which is tied up in cast time and animation clipping. In the case of DK they have a self heal that is COMPLETELY gutted and a flimsy but long duration shield. You are full of yourself, and I highly doubt you actually care about meaningful balance in the game, apart from self interest to promote your two favorite builds. I can accept the fact if you say 'too bad that's the way it is right now', but that isn't what you're saying, and at any regard the point is I'm not thinking about right now. I'm thinking about the future and how they can improve and balance the game.

Its great that you know stamina regen is important to Sorcerers, since that is usually what gets them killed. I think almost every Sorcerer in Cyrodiil that has played their character for some time knows that. I don't think that makes you the wunderkind of cyrodiil for knowing that. Guess what, Templars face that problem as well, and with the multiple nerfs to their Shield and blocking in general the differences are palpable. The Templar options right now are extremely limited in the pvp realm and pve realm. You really need a better argument than 'Look Heals'. Magicka Templar does alright, but is definitely more susceptible than a Magicka Sorcerer for a lot of reasons but makes up for it by giving more support to the team. Stamina Templar has a harder time. Tank Templar has a harder time. Tank Sorcerer has a harder time. Tank anything has a harder time.

Here's the rub. Health as a stat is just not meaningful enough in the game right now. This is the crux of my concern. The fact that people can triple stack shield buffs is a whole other issue. The Triple stacking of shield buffs should probably change, but I do not see how that deals with the low performance of the Health stat in the current system. There needs to be avenues for players of all 4 classes to EACH play the 4 roles effectively (Magic DPS, Healer, Stamina DPS, and Tank). The true tank has always been the weakest link in pvp, and has only gotten worse in the last couple of major patches. Tanks have always spread their stats with enough health not to die and enough of the 'other stat' to spam defensive abilities. My suggestion that Ward should be based upon Health is conditional, and requires that they fix underlying game mechanics (like the health multiplier among other things). Health is quite simply an under-performing Stat. There is literally no situation where you should go all in on health in this game. Why then should there be a situation where you go all in on Magicka and Stamina? This is to some degree in hyperbole, I realize DPS needs enough health to avoid getting 1 shot. Another alternative to the Health problem would be for them to have high health reduce block costs, and give bonuses to general damage mitigation. As it stands putting points in health costs you a lot more than it gives back, more so on a Sorcerer. So you see, my point is not to nerf Sorcs, but to broaden their options.

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

There's actually a thread on here from about a month ago of someone screenshotting the 45k hit, then other min/max builds showing even higher numbers, no stealth damage buff, no Camo hunter proc. A straight up crit in the face.

I would expect wrecking blow to hit me far far harder, yet it doesnt, I'm purely speaking of death recaps when participating in dueling events against well skilled/built players. Wrecking blow I often seen for 12k odd, but even at 15k I could expect it.

My problem is, with 14k more spell resist, that's a total of 30% more mitigation, yet the skills are hitting me just as hard as skills that have 30% less mitigation against.

I've fought against n00b sorcerers and yes they are easy to kill, as anyone class is, and I've beaten some downright good ones too, I've lost to plenty too, but I can't see how a class should have cheap spammable skills that out hit everything else, from range.

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162469/17-5k-crystal-frags-ftw/p1

This thread was created back in 1.6 when damage Battlespirit was only -20% instead of -50% and Nirnhoned was providing 100% mitigation. This player (whom I'm friends with) was universally known as the hardest hitting frag caster in PvP.

If you think there are sorcs in today's world of 50% mitgation flinging around 45K Crystal fragments then I really don't know why I'm wasting my time debating you on anything.

14K Resistance works out to less than 21% extra mitigation(670 per % at V16) and higher mitigation is pierced more by sharpened/nirnhoned.

That's obviously not the thread I mentioned.

It was just over a month ago, well into 1.7, it was someone boasting about 45k frag crits in pve, thanks to sorcerers being able to stack insane spell damage and max magicka, like the one alcast posted that had nearly 6k spell power and 45k magicka with the shadow mundus stone.

My personal death recaps, from within the last few weeks , have shown multiple 15k+ frags, on a build with 30k odd spell resist.

Again, a cheap spammable ability, all whilst being in the comfort of 20k+ worth of stacked shields.

You're talking absolute BS. Your figures are way out. In wrothgar I've been running about with 38k magicka with magelight and 3.1k spell damage, and I was getting excited at 21k frag crits. That's with a pve build that I wouldn't dare run with in cyrodiil. 45k magicka is possible with 3 toggles on each bar, leaving you a total of 2 usable skills per bar. Would you be afraid of that person in cyrodiil? Pretty sure 5k spell damage isn't even possible. Despite what you may think pvp is about more than just stacking damage to the limit. My cyrodiil stats are 34k magicka 3k spell damage buffed, 1.9k regen with a 9.6k hardened ward. My frags crit for 9k at the most. These figures represent the majority of sorcs regardless of what you say. Stop posting silly figures from your imagination.

zornyan wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

There's actually a thread on here from about a month ago of someone screenshotting the 45k hit, then other min/max builds showing even higher numbers, no stealth damage buff, no Camo hunter proc. A straight up crit in the face.

I would expect wrecking blow to hit me far far harder, yet it doesnt, I'm purely speaking of death recaps when participating in dueling events against well skilled/built players. Wrecking blow I often seen for 12k odd, but even at 15k I could expect it.

My problem is, with 14k more spell resist, that's a total of 30% more mitigation, yet the skills are hitting me just as hard as skills that have 30% less mitigation against.

I've fought against n00b sorcerers and yes they are easy to kill, as anyone class is, and I've beaten some downright good ones too, I've lost to plenty too, but I can't see how a class should have cheap spammable skills that out hit everything else, from range.

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162469/17-5k-crystal-frags-ftw/p1

This thread was created back in 1.6 when damage Battlespirit was only -20% instead of -50% and Nirnhoned was providing 100% mitigation. This player (whom I'm friends with) was universally known as the hardest hitting frag caster in PvP.

If you think there are sorcs in today's world of 50% mitgation flinging around 45K Crystal fragments then I really don't know why I'm wasting my time debating you on anything.

14K Resistance works out to less than 21% extra mitigation(670 per % at V16) and higher mitigation is pierced more by sharpened/nirnhoned.

That's obviously not the thread I mentioned.

It was just over a month ago, well into 1.7, it was someone boasting about 45k frag crits in pve, thanks to sorcerers being able to stack insane spell damage and max magicka, like the one alcast posted that had nearly 6k spell power and 45k magicka with the shadow mundus stone.

My personal death recaps, from within the last few weeks , have shown multiple 15k+ frags, on a build with 30k odd spell resist.

Again, a cheap spammable ability, all whilst being in the comfort of 20k+ worth of stacked shields.

You're talking absolute BS. Your figures are way out. In wrothgar I've been running about with 38k magicka with magelight and 3.1k spell damage, and I was getting excited at 21k frag crits. That's with a pve build that I wouldn't dare run with in cyrodiil. 45k magicka is possible with 3 toggles on each bar, leaving you a total of 2 usable skills per bar. Would you be afraid of that person in cyrodiil? Pretty sure 5k spell damage isn't even possible. Despite what you may think pvp is about more than just stacking damage to the limit. My cyrodiil stats are 34k magicka 3k spell damage buffed, 1.9k regen with a 9.6k hardened ward. My frags crit for 9k at the most. These figures represent the majority of sorcs regardless of what you say. Stop posting silly figures from your imagination.

So the picture that alcast posted in another thread of a sorcerer with 5600 spell damage and 45k magicka isnt real then? Th e build wasn't even using spell damage mundus. He was using the thief.

Again you're missing severs other things.

20% empower buff from I'm casting entropy first.
20% damage boost on proc.
CP passive damage boost.

Infact there's people running around with 22k tooltip values for frags, add in over 40% of damage boosts for starters.

Just because your personal build has low magicka and spell power doesn't mean it isn't achieveable.

It might well be achievable with a dual wield setup with 5 overwhelming surge, 2 molag kena, 3 willpower and 2 torugs, with the kena proc (which lasts 6 secs), scroll bonuses and continuous attack passive, with bars full of toggles. But this is literally pushing it to the extreme. Very few sorcs have overwhelming surge, or even molag Kena. Most sorcs don't even dual wield.

I remember that thread you linked, and I've seen that screenshot of the 5.6k spell damage before and I remember thinking that must be a min-maxed build with a combination of procs and temporary buffs. There's no way you can have that much spell damage and magicka in pvp and be viable, the guy has 900 magicka regen and probably has bars full of toggles. He probably took the screenshot in cyrodiil with scroll bonuses after having taken a resource (continuous attack passive) and light attacking an npc 3 times to proc molag kena.

I have tried to min-max my character as much as possible without grinding pve gear or gimping my survivability/utility, I mostly like to pvp. I wear 5 kagrenac's hope, 3 arch mage and 3 willpower. Infused on the big bits and divines on the rest with atronach mundus. All gear is legendary with magicka enchants. 3x spell damage glyphs on jewellery. I try to make the most of the expert mage passive by fitting 6 sorc skills onto my front bar giving me 12% boost to spell damage, and I buff up with major sorcery. Here is my character sheet: http://imgur.com/GAdDt0d

If my faction had the scroll bonuses my spell damage would go up to about 3.3k, and then with continuous attack passive it would go up to about 3.6k. Dual wielding would take that above 4k but that isn't really practical imo. And if I put inner light and bound aegis on my bar my magicka would go up to about 40k, but that would leave me with only 3 usable skills on each bar. Just because a build is achievable doesn't make it viable for everyday pvp.

Edit: just wanted to mention that tooltips in pvp don't account for the battle spirit damage reduction. So pvp tooltip damage is the same as pve tooltip damage.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

"Every class stacks their primary resource, Sorcs are not unique in that." (Yes every class stacks almost 1 resource exclusively. I have a problem with this.)

My build as far as Sorcs go *is* hybrid. (How many Stamina skills do you use? None? Thought so.)

*NO* class in the game be effective with a Mix magicka/stamina/health build. (This is my point. There is literally no option to diversify or you ruin your build.)

Thank you for your response, I have enjoyed debating this issue.

I've already mentioned that I slot defensive stance(A stamina ability) and I use it constantly. Half of my stamina consumption goes into that, which is why I have increased regen. The min/max sorc's you're talking about with huge magicka pools die to me because they are glass cannons with no utility in their build, just damage. In 1.6 I ran Stamina reduction enchants on my jewelry and would continue to do that had they not simultaneously nerfed spell damage on sets while buffing it on enchants.

If you PvPed with any measure of skill or knowledge you'd understand what I'm talking about, there is no debate happening here.

There is no debate, because you aren't focusing on the points we are making. You are apparently comfortable with every change ZoS makes to the game, and happy to just move your build to whatever is the FotM, quality of the game be damned. At least that is how you are coming across in this conversation to me. The way things appear, there is no debate happening in large part because you won't face some of our points at face value. Every claim you have made has been circuitous at best, and with a desire to seemingly latch on to whatever Strength you feel you are going to lose for your Sorcerer. As far as I can tell you play 2 characters, a nightblade and a sorcerer. Congratulations. How familiar are you with the other 2 classes, I mean really familiar? I'm not talking about dealing with them as an opponent, but actually playing them. This is exactly what you are asking of us, and I happen to have experience playing all 4. You can dance around the issue all you like, but the core of the problem here is the issue with DPS vs. Mitigation in this game. Mitigation is functioning in a wierd and haphazard way, which you admit when it hurts you (Streak nerfs, cloak nerfs) but somehow dance around when anyone discusses it with another class. Instead of bragging about superior knowledge, I think you need to show up or shut up.

You're not making any points to focus on because I had more understanding of this game by the time I've played the game for three months than the lot of you have combined. FotM is FotM. You don't even know what that means, and if you had the slightest bit of reading comprehension you'd recognize that my build is certainly not flavor of the month. I have 120 days played on my Sorc and *I* create builds, I don't copy builds or ideas, it goes the other way around. You guys are just throwing whatever you can at the wall here and hoping something sticks, that's the problem with these forum "debates". It's just full of people who limited understanding who do nothing but cry for nerfs because their knowledge is lacking.

What do you mean Mitigation is functioning in a "wierd and haphazard way?" What does that even mean? And what does that have to do with streak nerfs or cloak nerfs? (I don't even use streak or cloak on either of my characters but thanks for throwing those in there for....reasons?).

Congrats on playing 4 characters and knowing nothing about them? I know how to kill DKs and Templars, I know the strengths and weaknesses of both classes pretty well. I don't have knowledge of any particular bugs with certain skills they might experience or other things of that nature that only play the class would reveal. I've Duo PvPed for months now with another skilled templar and have filled in most of my knowledge on the strengths and weaknesses from that. I have the least knowledge of DKs but that is still far more than your average player and I know them well enough to counter them (even when they were at the top of the food chain).

Ezareth, you really are full of yourself. I'm not knocking your aptitude as a pvp'er and duelist, because you do fine in that. I am knocking your capacity to have a proper discussion. You're so full of yourself you can't realize that broad changes to the game effect abilities in specific. You won't attack this consideration head on, which is the only reason I opted to the Health-Shield side of the debate to begin with. You're so busy puffing yourself up and claiming a superior knowledge base, when I'm not entirely sure that knowledge base exists. I never disagreed with you about shield stacking in particular. I'll tell you this. If you really did pvp in the early game, you would recognize that Sun Shield was SIGNIFICANTLY better than it is now (and it was still quite limited back then, in the sense that you had to press aggressively into melee). For you to say anything otherwise is a boldfaced lie, and considering I know for a fact you've been playing the game for a while, I'm going to opt on the side of deceptiveness. I use to have more respect for you Ezareth, but this is beginning to get ridiculous. I'm not sure why I should be impressed that you know how to kill Templars and DK's, particularly in the current environment. This is your argument? I give you factual information about game mechanics, and you have nothing to say about them, except to say you have a bigger knowledge base.

Lets make it clear. You feel Sorcerers should get the only magic-based Shield. Sorcs have the best self major armor buff, a permanent minor armor buff, the best passive traits to regeneration and reduction, some innate soft heals (that I grant are weaker than a magicka templar, specifically BoL), and the best cost reduction passives. They can also get the highest damage bonus numbers, either for weapon or magic. They have one of the best escape mechanisms, with either a hard cc or a projectile blocker, and their armor also boosts the longest speed buff in the game outside of rapid maneuver. With all that said, you still think hardened ward should be scaled on magicka when other classes have to specifically rely on Health-based shields. This is even to the detriment of the Sorcerer Tank build, which is already in a dire situation in large part thanks to the reduction of the health multiplier and the 0% regen people now obtain while blocking. In the case of Templar it is a 6 second shield, part of which is tied up in cast time and animation clipping. In the case of DK they have a self heal that is COMPLETELY gutted and a flimsy but long duration shield. You are full of yourself, and I highly doubt you actually care about meaningful balance in the game, apart from self interest to promote your two favorite builds. I can accept the fact if you say 'too bad that's the way it is right now', but that isn't what you're saying, and at any regard the point is I'm not thinking about right now. I'm thinking about the future and how they can improve and balance the game.

Its great that you know stamina regen is important to Sorcerers, since that is usually what gets them killed. I think almost every Sorcerer in Cyrodiil that has played their character for some time knows that. I don't think that makes you the wunderkind of cyrodiil for knowing that. Guess what, Templars face that problem as well, and with the multiple nerfs to their Shield and blocking in general the differences are palpable. The Templar options right now are extremely limited in the pvp realm and pve realm. You really need a better argument than 'Look Heals'. Magicka Templar does alright, but is definitely more susceptible than a Magicka Sorcerer for a lot of reasons but makes up for it by giving more support to the team. Stamina Templar has a harder time. Tank Templar has a harder time. Tank Sorcerer has a harder time. Tank anything has a harder time.

Here's the rub. Health as a stat is just not meaningful enough in the game right now. This is the crux of my concern. The fact that people can triple stack shield buffs is a whole other issue. The Triple stacking of shield buffs should probably change, but I do not see how that deals with the low performance of the Health stat in the current system. There needs to be avenues for players of all 4 classes to EACH play the 4 roles effectively (Magic DPS, Healer, Stamina DPS, and Tank). The true tank has always been the weakest link in pvp, and has only gotten worse in the last couple of major patches. Tanks have always spread their stats with enough health not to die and enough of the 'other stat' to spam defensive abilities. My suggestion that Ward should be based upon Health is conditional, and requires that they fix underlying game mechanics (like the health multiplier among other things). Health is quite simply an under-performing Stat. There is literally no situation where you should go all in on health in this game. Why then should there be a situation where you go all in on Magicka and Stamina? This is to some degree in hyperbole, I realize DPS needs enough health to avoid getting 1 shot. Another alternative to the Health problem would be for them to have high health reduce block costs, and give bonuses to general damage mitigation. As it stands putting points in health costs you a lot more than it gives back, more so on a Sorcerer. So you see, my point is not to nerf Sorcs, but to broaden their options.

I'm not full of myself but when someone starts throwing some FOTM garbage at me while being dead wrong and not knowing anything about me I'm going to set them straight. You guys have continued to put all these words in my mouth and say I said things that I never said (I, while completely ignoring what I did say.

I remember Sun Shield being absurdly powerful. There were templars who would do nothing but charge into zergs and spam only that and rake in AP. Yes It's garbage now, and I think it should be brought in line with other damage shields but considering it does damage it shouldn't be anywhere near as large as hardened ward. Scaling off of health is the proper way to balance it. I've said since Day 1 of 1.6 that removing the health bonus was a mistake.

As far as my stamina regen, you're not going to find many Sorcs in PvP with 1800 stam regen, aware of limitations or not. I've already said I have no interest in discussing Stamina Templar or Stamina Sorcs as it doesn't relate to this thread.

I do agree health was devalued, I've been saying that for ages. You don't need to make magicka worth less to make it equal to health.

zornyan wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

zornyan wrote: »

There's actually a thread on here from about a month ago of someone screenshotting the 45k hit, then other min/max builds showing even higher numbers, no stealth damage buff, no Camo hunter proc. A straight up crit in the face.

I would expect wrecking blow to hit me far far harder, yet it doesnt, I'm purely speaking of death recaps when participating in dueling events against well skilled/built players. Wrecking blow I often seen for 12k odd, but even at 15k I could expect it.

My problem is, with 14k more spell resist, that's a total of 30% more mitigation, yet the skills are hitting me just as hard as skills that have 30% less mitigation against.

I've fought against n00b sorcerers and yes they are easy to kill, as anyone class is, and I've beaten some downright good ones too, I've lost to plenty too, but I can't see how a class should have cheap spammable skills that out hit everything else, from range.

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162469/17-5k-crystal-frags-ftw/p1

This thread was created back in 1.6 when damage Battlespirit was only -20% instead of -50% and Nirnhoned was providing 100% mitigation. This player (whom I'm friends with) was universally known as the hardest hitting frag caster in PvP.

If you think there are sorcs in today's world of 50% mitgation flinging around 45K Crystal fragments then I really don't know why I'm wasting my time debating you on anything.

14K Resistance works out to less than 21% extra mitigation(670 per % at V16) and higher mitigation is pierced more by sharpened/nirnhoned.

That's obviously not the thread I mentioned.

It was just over a month ago, well into 1.7, it was someone boasting about 45k frag crits in pve, thanks to sorcerers being able to stack insane spell damage and max magicka, like the one alcast posted that had nearly 6k spell power and 45k magicka with the shadow mundus stone.

My personal death recaps, from within the last few weeks , have shown multiple 15k+ frags, on a build with 30k odd spell resist.

Again, a cheap spammable ability, all whilst being in the comfort of 20k+ worth of stacked shields.

You're talking absolute BS. Your figures are way out. In wrothgar I've been running about with 38k magicka with magelight and 3.1k spell damage, and I was getting excited at 21k frag crits. That's with a pve build that I wouldn't dare run with in cyrodiil. 45k magicka is possible with 3 toggles on each bar, leaving you a total of 2 usable skills per bar. Would you be afraid of that person in cyrodiil? Pretty sure 5k spell damage isn't even possible. Despite what you may think pvp is about more than just stacking damage to the limit. My cyrodiil stats are 34k magicka 3k spell damage buffed, 1.9k regen with a 9.6k hardened ward. My frags crit for 9k at the most. These figures represent the majority of sorcs regardless of what you say. Stop posting silly figures from your imagination.

So the picture that alcast posted in another thread of a sorcerer with 5600 spell damage and 45k magicka isnt real then? Th e build wasn't even using spell damage mundus. He was using the thief.

Again you're missing severs other things.

20% empower buff from I'm casting entropy first.
20% damage boost on proc.
CP passive damage boost.

Infact there's people running around with 22k tooltip values for frags, add in over 40% of damage boosts for starters.

Just because your personal build has low magicka and spell power doesn't mean it isn't achieveable.

It might well be achievable with a dual wield setup with 5 overwhelming surge, 2 molag kena, 3 willpower and 2 torugs, with the kena proc (which lasts 6 secs), scroll bonuses and continuous attack passive, with bars full of toggles. But this is literally pushing it to the extreme. Very few sorcs have overwhelming surge, or even molag Kena. Most sorcs don't even dual wield.

I remember that thread you linked, and I've seen that screenshot of the 5.6k spell damage before and I remember thinking that must be a min-maxed build with a combination of procs and temporary buffs. There's no way you can have that much spell damage and magicka in pvp and be viable, the guy has 900 magicka regen and probably has bars full of toggles. He probably took the screenshot in cyrodiil with scroll bonuses after having taken a resource (continuous attack passive) and light attacking an npc 3 times to proc molag kena.

I have tried to min-max my character as much as possible without grinding pve gear or gimping my survivability/utility, I mostly like to pvp. I wear 5 kagrenac's hope, 3 arch mage and 3 willpower. Infused on the big bits and divines on the rest with atronach mundus. All gear is legendary with magicka enchants. 3x spell damage glyphs on jewellery. I try to make the most of the expert mage passive by fitting 6 sorc skills onto my front bar giving me 12% boost to spell damage, and I buff up with major sorcery. Here is my character sheet: http://imgur.com/GAdDt0d

If my faction had the scroll bonuses my spell damage would go up to about 3.3k, and then with continuous attack passive it would go up to about 3.6k. Dual wielding would take that above 4k but that isn't really practical imo. And if I put inner light and bound aegis on my bar my magicka would go up to about 40k, but that would leave me with only 3 usable skills on each bar. Just because a build is achievable doesn't make it viable for everyday pvp.

Edit: just wanted to mention that tooltips in pvp don't account for the battle spirit damage reduction. So pvp tooltip damage is the same as pve tooltip damage.

I was merely showing it's possible to make a sorc build, stacking such huge amounts of damage and magicka that you could one shot players all day long, not from stealth or requiring certain mechanics, just sit there, tap shield a couple times to get a proc, and bam, dead.

Your using very similar gear to me, except I'm using 4torugs atm with duel wield /sword and board, waiting for the kena shoulders to drop.

The problem with this is the bolded part is DEAD WRONG.

The setup with 5k+ spelldmg requires overwhelming surge + kena proccs which results in you having to light attack the target atleast two times. Then you need the other rgn set to procc AND now you have to buff up your fragments with entropy.

Every player that is unable to react to a projectile with slow movement speed after that deserves what´s coming to him (and a 15 to 17k frag in pvp is nowhere near a 1shot except on other sorcs maybe - but they have shields...)

zornyan wrote: »

Also note that my imperial templar only has 900 regen, yet does fine solo in pvp and heals through vet dungeons in PVE.

Also note that a lot of the sorcerers that have completed vetmsa of their builds multiple had only 900 regen, it's really not that hard to keep your mana pool up using pots.

More BS I'm sorry. I ran the vet arena with 1.9k regen and it was really hard to keep my magicka up using pots. You clearly don't have a clue what you're on about. "does fine in pvp" lol

Facts: most sorcs run around cyro with about 35k magicka and 2.5-3k spell damage and about 1.9k regen. To get your magicka over 40k you need more than racial bonuses; you either need to wear a set like necropotence or you need to put more than one toggle on your bar. You know what toggles are right? Skills you slot that passively buff your magicka but take up space on your bar so that you can't use proper skills. Toggles reduce your effectiveness in pvp; if you have inner light and bound aegis on both bars that leaves you with only 3 usable skills per bar. How is a sorc supposed to shield stack with only 3 usable slots on his back bar?

You need to drop your sorc delusions; I think you'll find that sorc stats pale in comparison to stamblade stats, when compared like-for-like with weapon damage and stam regen.

zornyan wrote: »

Also note that my imperial templar only has 900 regen, yet does fine solo in pvp and heals through vet dungeons in PVE.

Also note that a lot of the sorcerers that have completed vetmsa of their builds multiple had only 900 regen, it's really not that hard to keep your mana pool up using pots.

Ok, I have no clue where you PvP. But on PC NA/EU or any competitive PvP environment, if you run around with 900 recovery, you get absolutely *** on. You will not do fine. The second you need to start heavy attacking for magicka back, you lost. You're dread.

Need over 2k mag recovery in PvP, even more if you're not using Channelled Focus or similar restore skill.That goes for any magicka build, sorc and templar included. You also need enough stamina- or recovery to break cc every 7-8 second.

But yes, based on what i've seen in videos and heard about console PvP, most guys so milkdrinker it doesn't matter if you cant break cc or if you run out of magicka. Guessing that's why this community and discussions becomes so polarized, people play totally different games, depending on platform