Should Sorc shields scale of health?

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Yeah as stam i rip through shields i just wish magic people could have same benfit as stam.

Yet despite acknowledging that stam builds have no problem with shields, he's still asking for a nerf to the Sorc shield.

Well said

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sentinel wrote: »

I voted for scaling off of health as then Sorcs could benefit with their shield in a wider variety of builds, such as a stam sorc, a tanky stam and magicka sorc. It doesn't need to be considered a nerf, it would just introduce builds with people finding a balance between offense and defense. Glass cannons will lose from this, yes, but in their place a whole new variety of builds even tankier than before will arise. Im not sure that building offensive stats also building defensive stats is healthy for the game. It promotes glass cannon builds that are not so much 'glass' anymore and achieve the highest of everything.

Lol. How would Hardened Ward scaling off HP give rise to tanky stam/magicka sorcs?

What tanky build relies on wards instead of heals? How many tanky magicka builds (DK or Templar) have more HP than magicka? Even now, if Igneous Shield and Blazing Shield scaled off Magicka instead of HP it would be a buff to magicka tanks.

You know why? Because heals scale off the same offensive stats (magicka/spell damage or stamina/wpn damage for stamina tank). So even tanks are better off throwing loads of points behind their primary damage stat instead of HP.

Sorcs have no exclusivity whatsoever in getting the best out of maximising magicka. It applies to all others too. If you think that making Hardened Ward scale off HP is not a nerf (for a class with no heals like BoL or defense mechanics like Scales) then you are dangerously clueless.

The scaling of power off of stamina/magicka is a big mistake I feel. I didn't like this change to the game, because it has led to some pretty terrible power creep, and it has now put way too many dials in the players hands. I guess that's why I'm in favor of this change. I really think they need to try and standardize abilities to some extent, they need to get damage/heal boosts from gear sets (and CP) instead of attributes. I'd much rather see a situation where +heal is an attribute on a piece of gear, and +damage is an attribute on a piece of gear. By forcing those kinds of choices, players would have to more deeply consider balance issues. The system as it stands, I just feel it is too ripe for a power creep that they will not be able to properly control, which will continue to result in more broken classes, more broken abilities, and nerfs that make the game hardly recognizable from what it once was (in a bad way). I've seen this done in other games before, so I'm coming from a position of experience.

Oh, and I wanted to add I think they need to find a way to put Soft Caps back into the game. I love the idea that a Dunmer DK Fire mage can peak out fire damage sooner than other builds. I don't think it should be impossible for a Nord DK to attain that level (or close enough to be insignificant in difference) with a greater investment in things like CP for Elemental Damage. The idea as I pose it, is that the dunmer will attain the soft cap numbers much sooner than the Nord in this instance, but the Nord has a mechanic to catch up. The Dunmer in turn will likely start to spend his points in other more effective areas at a certain point, which is where Optimization comes into play. Look, I use to dislike soft caps, until I have seen a few times what removing them can do to a game (in a bad way).

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sentinel wrote: »

I voted for scaling off of health as then Sorcs could benefit with their shield in a wider variety of builds, such as a stam sorc, a tanky stam and magicka sorc. It doesn't need to be considered a nerf, it would just introduce builds with people finding a balance between offense and defense. Glass cannons will lose from this, yes, but in their place a whole new variety of builds even tankier than before will arise. Im not sure that building offensive stats also building defensive stats is healthy for the game. It promotes glass cannon builds that are not so much 'glass' anymore and achieve the highest of everything.

Lol. How would Hardened Ward scaling off HP give rise to tanky stam/magicka sorcs?

What tanky build relies on wards instead of heals? How many tanky magicka builds (DK or Templar) have more HP than magicka? Even now, if Igneous Shield and Blazing Shield scaled off Magicka instead of HP it would be a buff to magicka tanks.

You know why? Because heals scale off the same offensive stats (magicka/spell damage or stamina/wpn damage for stamina tank). So even tanks are better off throwing loads of points behind their primary damage stat instead of HP.

Sorcs have no exclusivity whatsoever in getting the best out of maximising magicka. It applies to all others too. If you think that making Hardened Ward scale off HP is not a nerf (for a class with no heals like BoL or defense mechanics like Scales) then you are dangerously clueless.

The scaling of power off of stamina/magicka is a big mistake I feel. I didn't like this change to the game, because it has led to some pretty terrible power creep, and it has now put way too many dials in the players hands. I guess that's why I'm in favor of this change. I really think they need to try and standardize abilities to some extent, they need to get damage/heal boosts from gear sets (and CP) instead of attributes. I'd much rather see a situation where +heal is an attribute on a piece of gear, and +damage is an attribute on a piece of gear. By forcing those kinds of choices, players would have to more deeply consider balance issues. The system as it stands, I just feel it is too ripe for a power creep that they will not be able to properly control, which will continue to result in more broken classes, more broken abilities, and nerfs that make the game hardly recognizable from what it once was (in a bad way). I've seen this done in other games before, so I'm coming from a position of experience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

It isn't a change to the game, it's been around since day one. You're in favor of a change you don't even understand....in fact I'm willing to wager that no one in favor of this idiocy even knows what it would do. It's just like the people who vote to raise taxes on other people....not raising my taxes? Sure then pass it....they can afford it!

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

As Ez said, you guys have no idea what you're talking about and how the game works. You're just hopping on a nerf bandwagon fueled by your lack of understanding and bias, with 0 arguments passing even a basic logic test. Then you pat each other on the back for the exemplary show of ignorance. At least it's a hilarious spectacle

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sentinel wrote: »

I voted for scaling off of health as then Sorcs could benefit with their shield in a wider variety of builds, such as a stam sorc, a tanky stam and magicka sorc. It doesn't need to be considered a nerf, it would just introduce builds with people finding a balance between offense and defense. Glass cannons will lose from this, yes, but in their place a whole new variety of builds even tankier than before will arise. Im not sure that building offensive stats also building defensive stats is healthy for the game. It promotes glass cannon builds that are not so much 'glass' anymore and achieve the highest of everything.

Lol. How would Hardened Ward scaling off HP give rise to tanky stam/magicka sorcs?

What tanky build relies on wards instead of heals? How many tanky magicka builds (DK or Templar) have more HP than magicka? Even now, if Igneous Shield and Blazing Shield scaled off Magicka instead of HP it would be a buff to magicka tanks.

You know why? Because heals scale off the same offensive stats (magicka/spell damage or stamina/wpn damage for stamina tank). So even tanks are better off throwing loads of points behind their primary damage stat instead of HP.

Sorcs have no exclusivity whatsoever in getting the best out of maximising magicka. It applies to all others too. If you think that making Hardened Ward scale off HP is not a nerf (for a class with no heals like BoL or defense mechanics like Scales) then you are dangerously clueless.

The scaling of power off of stamina/magicka is a big mistake I feel. I didn't like this change to the game, because it has led to some pretty terrible power creep, and it has now put way too many dials in the players hands. I guess that's why I'm in favor of this change. I really think they need to try and standardize abilities to some extent, they need to get damage/heal boosts from gear sets (and CP) instead of attributes. I'd much rather see a situation where +heal is an attribute on a piece of gear, and +damage is an attribute on a piece of gear. By forcing those kinds of choices, players would have to more deeply consider balance issues. The system as it stands, I just feel it is too ripe for a power creep that they will not be able to properly control, which will continue to result in more broken classes, more broken abilities, and nerfs that make the game hardly recognizable from what it once was (in a bad way). I've seen this done in other games before, so I'm coming from a position of experience.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

It isn't a change to the game, it's been around since day one. You're in favor of a change you don't even understand....in fact I'm willing to wager that no one in favor of this idiocy even knows what it would do. It's just like the people who vote to raise taxes on other people....not raising my taxes? Sure then pass it....they can afford it!

Your response really isn't intelligible, primarily because it doesn't even respond to the core issue I'm posing. I'm not going to look at a spiderman video while listening to voicemails at work. They HAVE changed the way damage scaling works in this game. Lets say for a moment I'm wrong though and they have not. They have still fundamentally nerfed health and tanking in general. I was not referring to a class nerf, and no where have I suggested they should have one. You see the shield scaling that way, fine, that's your opinion. I see the entire removal of soft caps, the bizarre changes to blocking and rolling, and the strange multiplier change on health as a huge mistake. You don't, but you can deflect the core of my concerns with a spiderman video and some nonsense if you like. I think you're better than that though Ezareth. Your concerns about the shielding issue might be valid were it not for the existence of tanks. If they don't want tanks that's fine, get rid of heavy armor and the sword and shield. I don't think you'd be very happy for me calling for nerfs to shielding that would reduce your magicka regen to shielding while a shield is up. That is not what I've done. I've simply suggested that the shield should be based upon health. I think it is a moderate and fair request, as a true tank deserves to be able to compete in pvp as well as perform his duties properly in pve. I don't think the issue is as simplistic as you lay it out. Those in favor of magicka boosting Shields have this point that you're either a 'stamina build' or a 'magicka' build, neglecting entirely those people who are built more for health. Health has been tarred and feathered, along with tanking.

You act as though you can't be a high focus in magicka with heavy armor. You act as though this is fair with relation to the other shields, when it is not. Other class shields have been nerfed multiple times, to the point that Blazing Shield is unrecognizable from its original intent. You fail to account for the fact that a shield is actually superior to a direct heal, because it can be cancelled and pre-empt injury before it happens. I'm not asking for Sorcs to be nerfed, I'm asking for them to be balanced with respect to other classes. There has been enough nonsense in this thread as it stands. People have said Sorcs have no form of mitigation outside of shields, which is bs. Even when confronted with this fact it is denied. I think the self interested parties here are magicka dps sorcs who can't stomach the notion that a tank sorc might want to use a shield that is actually built for his spec. For clarity I'll reiterate the mitigations that Sorcs have so that it can not be said they have none.
1. Bound Armor (minor armor buff with boost to stam/magicka. Stam version gets a huge heavy attack bonus, magic version gets spell resist)
2. Boundless Lightning (major ar/sr buff and the longest move speed buff usable through combat, also comes with decent pbaoe damage based on preferred stat.)
3. Passive huge health and stamina regeneration. Strong passive magicka regen. Best cost reduction on a class for ultimates and mag/stam skills, making them better at using out of class skills than others. This is why the vampire sorc was in part such a big deal at a time.
4. Crit Surge - Heal on crits 40% of crit dealt on power surge, 50% on crit surge. Also gives a whopping 20% to weapon damage or spell damage depending what you prefer.
5. Clannfear - Large heal upon clannfear's death. Its channeled and requires a second click.
6. Conjured Ward -the topic at hand...
7. Restoring Twilight - admittedly small, and on a pet build. not really important.
8. Bolt Escape - I've tanked with a Sorc, yes this is a form of mitigation just like Blur is a form of mitigation for nightblades. Ball Lightning is great for sucking up projectiles being chucked at you and is a DIRECT form of mitigation for that 1.8 seconds. I've been having fun with this one of late. It also means you've changed position, which gets you out of huge stacks of aoes and fast. There's a lot to be said about this ability, and if you're any good as a sorc you should already know it. Streak morph is a nice cc that jacks everyone in your path.
9. Blood Magic passive: hitting an enemy with a DM ability gives you 8% max health. This includes things like mines/frags (which can also be crit- see crit surge above).
10. Dark Exchange: two morphs. Trade stam or magic for more health and either magica or stam back. Whine all you want, its a decent self heal if timed properly. I agree its not as easy to fire as breath of life, but you're also able to fuel another stat as needed.
11. You can equip a restoration staff (and most of you mage-sorcs do, often firing 3 wards together, which I'm not complaining about).

Sorcs can easily get the highest weapon damage/spell damage bonus in the game, which in turn fuels their self heals. Like the Nightblade, their healing trickles in, it doesn't generally burst (see clanfear) but they also lay down significant aggressive pressure for their innate self heals. Unless of course you get a restoration staff which oh wow, most mage-sorcs do. Amazing.

You are very good at making pretty pictures, but pretty awful at actually responding here. If you had a leg to stand on you wouldn't attack my character but my position with refutations like, 'You have no understanding' or 'You just want to nerf my class like spiderman in a video'. Please though, go on and play a political game with this if you like. I think I've touched a nerve if your only response is stupid jpegs and videos, and a straw man argument.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Your response really isn't intelligible....I'm not going to look at a spiderman video while listening to voicemails at work. .....but you can deflect the core of my concerns with a spiderman video

I can't say this any nicer.....but I don't think your understanding of things is what you think it is and debating your comprehension of matters would require the impossible of me.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

@Ezareth I'll restate what I've said above (I was editing/adding when you replied).

You are very good at making pretty pictures, but pretty awful at actually responding here. If you had a leg to stand on you wouldn't attack my character but my position with refutations like, 'You have no understanding' or 'You just want to nerf my class like spiderman in a video'. Please though, go on and play a rhetorical/political game with this if you like. I think I've touched a nerve if your only response is stupid jpegs and videos, and a straw man argument.

I didn't mean to insult you by stating your comment was unintelligible. I was simply saying you were referencing the part and extrapolating to the entirety of what I was saying. You're welcome to call my experience into question (though I have been around since early beta, and I've seen pvp ruined in many mmo's). I'll even be the first to admit I make mistakes, but you have to do a lot better than behave like a monkey flinging poo to convince me or anyone really.

usmcjdking · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Maybe to have it scale to 35% of max magicka?

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

@Ezareth I'll restate what I've said above (I was editing/adding when you replied).

You are very good at making pretty pictures, but pretty awful at actually responding here. If you had a leg to stand on you wouldn't attack my character but my position with refutations like, 'You have no understanding' or 'You just want to nerf my class like spiderman in a video'. Please though, go on and play a rhetorical/political game with this if you like. I think I've touched a nerve if your only response is stupid jpegs and videos, and a straw man argument.

I didn't mean to insult you by stating your comment was unintelligible. I was simply saying you were referencing the part and extrapolating to the entirety of what I was saying. You're welcome to call my experience into question (though I have been around since early beta, and I've seen pvp ruined in many mmo's). I'll even be the first to admit I make mistakes, but you have to do a lot better than behave like a monkey flinging poo to convince me or anyone really.

I'm not the guy making statements, I'm refuting them. I'm a logical person, I responding to facts. If you have an argument you wish to make, back it up with some concrete evidence.

And example would be something like...For every point in magicka a hardened ward with a 100 CP in Bastion sorc gains X amount, yet the damage of a stamina class with 100 points into might only increased by Y amount. Those are things I debate.

Secondly, the scaling of power of magicka and stamina has never changed. The only thing that changed was health became weaker and thus devalued it compared to magicka/stamina which is the primary reason why everyone stacks that instead of health. I've already pointed this out in an earlier post.

Tanks do not exist in PvP. Players have created non-threatening builds that bad players have attacked which were very survivable in the past but there is no player "taunt" and thus the entire concept of a tank is very limited. Now certain players have an extreme survivability when being surounded by multiple opponents (like NB Sap-Tanks, the old healing bats etc) but those builds were pretty much phased out in 1.7. Tanking and all of that however is a completely different topic than the one at hand.

Should sorc shields scale off of health? To me, that question isn't a question at all. It is an assumption. An assumption that because Hardened Ward scales off of magicka and all PvP sorcs maximize their magicka in order to maximize their hardened ward that the problem must be that Hardened ward is too strong. It isn't. The *real* problem is that the *alternatives* to hardened ward and maxing your magicka are complete garbage. Before you could even suggest a change to hardened ward, you'd have to create an alternative that was balanced.

I've had the argument with literally dozens of people in the 2 years I've been posting on these forums. I know both sides of it inside and out and I've been on both sides of the equation. In 1.6 Hardened Ward , Healing ward, and Dampen magicka were far too good. In 1.7 they are far more balanced.

And for the record....that spiderman post was an image, not a video which is why I responded the way I did.

ToRelax · November 2015

No...

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Btw Maulkin, you know well enough Templar gets Major Mending as well, BoR is not on par with BoR, neither as selfheal nor groupheal.

Not the last time I checked. Did something change? It definitely did not use to be the case. Not in 1.6 anyway

Damn, you're right. It's 30% increased Healing inside the Ritual, but actually, that's even better. So the point still stands.

Definitely not for me.

Ritual is a 2" cast time and then requires you to stay within the Ritual. Which is why most Templars I know don't run it, because it is a huge sacrifice on mobility. It also doesn't buff your heals to everyone, just the heals received. By comparison Igneous Shield is instant, grants you a buff that moves with you, buffs all healing done and gives a small shield.

The only clear advantage I see is the fact one is a class skill and does not require a particular weapon equipped. If BoR was a DK skill you could cast with S&B equipped, DKs would self heal with it much better than Templars currently do with BoL, guaranteed. But since BoL is a smart heal with no LOS checks, they would still be the better group healers.

Purifying Ritual. Instant cast, fairly low cost, purges 5 debuffs on yourself, gives a groundbased AoE HoT with a 12m radius and provides allies with a synergy that purges all debuffs.
Honestly, I don't know any good Templar who doesn't use that.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

For clarity, because perhaps you'll want to argue around this point. Soft Caps -DID- directly effect how magicka/stamina damage scaling works. You can argue it any way you want to, but we would not be seeing the ridiculous inflation that has been going on over the last year were it not for the removal of soft caps. I don't want this to be an argument of semantics. You can tell me I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain you've spoken about power creep in the past Ezareth. This is what my argument hinges on. The removal of caps with concurrent decrease in health multiplier have made the DPS role more or less the only role in the game. That's all well and good, but the argument as I pose it is why do we even have a health stat or a Tank role? I'm fine with them removing tanks, but lets just remove health as a choice if its going to be gutted in this manner. As I've stated elsewhere, there is no reason to play a REAL tank in pve, unless you are a masochist. A highly survivable DPS/Heals character is a completely different animal, and it would seem is something that many PVP players can not comprehend.

Look, I'd be happy with Tanks being a dead role in PVP-land, if they also gave us an alternate build for PVP. There's a reason I quit playing as a tank, and it is because I'm not willing to pay for a complete respec every time I switch from Cyrodiil to Undaunted tasks. Well, that and the nerf to block and rolling was pretty atrocious.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

For clarity, because perhaps you'll want to argue around this point. Soft Caps -DID- directly effect how magicka/stamina damage scaling works. You can argue it any way you want to, but we would not be seeing the ridiculous inflation that has been going on over the last year were it not for the removal of soft caps. I don't want this to be an argument of semantics. You can tell me I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain you've spoken about power creep in the past Ezareth. This is what my argument hinges on. The removal of caps with concurrent decrease in health multiplier have made the DPS role more or less the only role in the game. That's all well and good, but the argument as I pose it is why do we even have a health stat or a Tank role? I'm fine with them removing tanks, but lets just remove health as a choice if its going to be gutted in this manner. As I've stated elsewhere, there is no reason to play a REAL tank in pve, unless you are a masochist. A highly survivable DPS/Heals character is a completely different animal, and it would seem is something that many PVP players can not comprehend.

Look, I'd be happy with Tanks being a dead role in PVP-land, if they also gave us an alternate build for PVP. There's a reason I quit playing as a tank, and it is because I'm not willing to pay for a complete respec every time I switch from Cyrodiil to Undaunted tasks. Well, that and the nerf to block and rolling was pretty atrocious.

There were Sorcs who stacked up to 2800 magicka in 1.5 that had insane shields and no health and did a ton of damage. I had softcap health and magicka and just under softcap magicka regen. Really not much changed for my sorc except I lost a ton of health that I use to have and Bolt escape was nerfed to oblivion.

As far as Tanks in PvP. I run my Stamblade with about as close to what you'd consider a tank. I AoE fear groups of enemies and keep them permanently maimed and snared with Deep slash/bash spam and if they focus me I alternate between blocking and dodge rolling. If I want to run WGT or ICP I don't need to respect just swap out some gear.

Perhaps if you have a limited number of skill points and CPs this might be more of a thing but at CP cap or close to it you really can do either roll in the same spec.

CyrusArya · November 2015

No...

@dodgehopper_ESO What others are telling you and what I will reiterate is that you have no idea what you are talking about, and your rants are worthless in terms of providing insight for class changes. I only glanced over your massive wall of text, but what I drew from it is that you are either clueless or simply do not play PvP at the same level/have the understanding of the current state of the game as some us do. And yet you still have vehement opinions. That's the problem.

What I detest about this forum is how so many people with no grasp, knowledge, or perspective call for fundamental design changes to things that they clearly have no investment in or understanding of. Its the only reason I made an account, so that if ZoS does monitor this *** hole they can hear counter arguments to specifically people like you.

And my counter argument is simply this: Hardened Ward is the crux of magicka sorcs survivability. Even if other forms of mitigation exist in some way, that doesn't change this fact. It is to sorcs what cloak is to NBs and BoL to templars: an exclusive and unique mechanic that defines the class. It is not a parallel to blazing/igneous shield and that is why it doesn't scale in a similar fashion. If the suggested change is implemented, sorcs will be stripped of a core mechanic and become cannon fodder to any basic stamina build.

All we are saying is this: Don't post convoluted rants when you have no perspective on what you speak on.That is if you want people to take you seriously in the future, cus I know I wont.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

CyrusArya wrote: »

What I detest about this forum is how so many people with no grasp, knowledge, or perspective call for fundamental design changes to things that they clearly have no investment in or understanding of.

This has been my lament all this time as well ) =

I love debating an informed player with differing *opinions* but I can't stand having to waste valuable time explaining things to someone to put them "in the know" only to have another new random uninformed person come by the very next week with the same argument.

AfkNinja · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Health, Mana and Stamina need to be unlinked from damage. Stacking max magicka should only increase your resource pool not contribute damage. Unlink the resources and Hybrid builds will work again. No need to nerf Hardened Ward.

Ezareth · November 2015

No...

AfkNinja wrote: »

Health, Mana and Stamina need to be unlinked from damage. Stacking max magicka should only increase your resource pool not contribute damage. Unlink the resources and Hybrid builds will work again. No need to nerf Hardened Ward.

That wont really do anything other than lower the damage across the board if you think about it.

AfkNinja · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Health, Mana and Stamina need to be unlinked from damage. Stacking max magicka should only increase your resource pool not contribute damage. Unlink the resources and Hybrid builds will work again. No need to nerf Hardened Ward.

That wont really do anything other than lower the damage across the board if you think about it.

Not if you adjust the modifiers to account for not getting dmg from resources. The goal would be to separate your resource pool from dmg which would make your choices for HP/MP/STAM more important. Instead of being able to just stack 1 you would now have to think about your build. Once again, it would also reaaaaaally help hybrid's to return.

dday3six · November 2015

No...

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Shields not negating dots and crits would be a better start, imo.

They don't negate DoTs

Perhaps you think I mean purge/remove them. No I mean once a shield is up it a dot cannot be applied to the hp of the shield. I know if it's applied before the shield goes up it will continue to tick on the target's health.

dodgehopper_ESO · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Ezareth wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

For clarity, because perhaps you'll want to argue around this point. Soft Caps -DID- directly effect how magicka/stamina damage scaling works. You can argue it any way you want to, but we would not be seeing the ridiculous inflation that has been going on over the last year were it not for the removal of soft caps. I don't want this to be an argument of semantics. You can tell me I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain you've spoken about power creep in the past Ezareth. This is what my argument hinges on. The removal of caps with concurrent decrease in health multiplier have made the DPS role more or less the only role in the game. That's all well and good, but the argument as I pose it is why do we even have a health stat or a Tank role? I'm fine with them removing tanks, but lets just remove health as a choice if its going to be gutted in this manner. As I've stated elsewhere, there is no reason to play a REAL tank in pve, unless you are a masochist. A highly survivable DPS/Heals character is a completely different animal, and it would seem is something that many PVP players can not comprehend.

Look, I'd be happy with Tanks being a dead role in PVP-land, if they also gave us an alternate build for PVP. There's a reason I quit playing as a tank, and it is because I'm not willing to pay for a complete respec every time I switch from Cyrodiil to Undaunted tasks. Well, that and the nerf to block and rolling was pretty atrocious.

There were Sorcs who stacked up to 2800 magicka in 1.5 that had insane shields and no health and did a ton of damage. I had softcap health and magicka and just under softcap magicka regen. Really not much changed for my sorc except I lost a ton of health that I use to have and Bolt escape was nerfed to oblivion.

As far as Tanks in PvP. I run my Stamblade with about as close to what you'd consider a tank. I AoE fear groups of enemies and keep them permanently maimed and snared with Deep slash/bash spam and if they focus me I alternate between blocking and dodge rolling. If I want to run WGT or ICP I don't need to respect just swap out some gear.

Perhaps if you have a limited number of skill points and CPs this might be more of a thing but at CP cap or close to it you really can do either roll in the same spec.

I recognize what you're saying about softcap. My Sorc was in a similar situation, although when you're talking about the early phase of the game, Sorcerer was really, really powerful. It just had amazing utility. Light armor with all the benefits of heavy armor, and then some for starters. It was insanely powerful, but a lot of people didn't realize it. Getting back on track, I believe a softcap system is healthier for the game. If they fixed the issue of no soft cap, fixed the health multiplier, and brought rolling/blocking back to a more reasonable level I might be more comfortable with leaving the sorc magicka bubble where it is at. The whole reason that everything is in such turmoil is that the whole game system has been upended. Maybe you disagree, but I don't think the game plays as well as it did in the early days, and it wasn't balanced then. I certainly think it is a good thing people can't keep batswarm or standard up semi-permanently anymore.

Lets face it, the DPS role always did well in Cyrodiil. Even the 'tank' characters in pvp were generally DPS with tank elements. There is a reason there were so many complaints about bathrobe wearing DK's with sword and shield batswarming, and to a lesser extent the Sorcs doing the same thing. The way I see it though, the tank role was a lot more viable before they killed it. It was actually very fun to play a tank in cyrodiil if you had the right team around you. I know you might think I'm against the Sorcerer class but that is mistaken. I actually like the class a lot. Its the class I have the most of, with one V16, one Veteran 2, and another Vet Sorc. Its not as though I'm unfamiliar with the class, I just want to see tank Sorcerer be a decent build like it use to be, particularly because I have 3 of them. It might be workable, but like most classes you take a major hit when you build your attributes and CP toward tanking, and step into Cyrodiil (obviously swapping gear for PVP).

I'll just anecdotally compare this game to STO so you understand what I was pointing out earlier by way of my experience in other games. Star Trek Online had a semi-balanced ecosystem of ship classes at one point. It had its flaws, but essentially there were three classes of vessel: Science (control/heals), Cruiser (tank/heals/sustain dps), and Escort (brute force dps). The DPS crowd (escort) players moaned and complained about how Cruisers were hard to kill, and Science ship controls were too difficult to deal with. DPS slowly became more important as patches went on, Science became a running joke, and Cruiser for a time became a joke. Things have changed since then, and I haven't seriously played the game in some time, but last time I checked Science was not considered particularly useful in pvp, apart from a very specific hybrid Science/Cruiser ship (that was also a cash shop vessel). I'm trying to sum this up as quickly as possible, but they ruined the pvp community between horrible dps imbalances, and gutting whole styles of combat to favor DPS players. Top end performers in pvp left the game because it wasn't worth throwing heaps of money and all their free time into a game that was so poorly balanced. My point is this: Dps should not necessarily be the only fighter out there. I realize Tanks don't taunt in cyrodiil, but they do debuff, they do create massive annoyance. I use to love popping talons, or caltrops, or mines debuffing with reverberating bash or sweeps or pierce. I made myself a nuisance, and people would pile up to attack me. I often survived - and that is tanking in pvp. Tanking in pvp is about being annoying enough that everyone wants to attack you, but shouldn't. This often was enough to break enemy lines up so my comrades could siege or fire dps at a distance.

Maybe I'm just coming at this wrong. Maybe it really is RIP Tanks and I just need to get with the program. I just fail to see why they are building a system that just keeps pushing out a whole class of playstyle. There really is very little reward for being a tank other than the thanks you get for helping someone run their undaunted nonsense. I think the Sorcerer tank is in a rough position, and this is why I thought a bigger shield would be good for them. There are probably more elegant solutions.

ScarecrowBoat · November 2015

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

We talk abou the shields and you can EASILY stack 15k withou 100 point in bastion and without emperor(and is spamable) I give up. I play templar and sorcs cant kill me / if we match the skills/ and i just move away. Seems you guys love the lack of balance. Enjoy it then. And pls, dont forgeth the exploits, this make it even more funy to play. Cheers.

No one here is saying the harness + hardened shield stack is not OP. We're just saying that individual shield strength is not the problem or the fact they can't be crit.

Do you see ANY sorc runing with only one shield ? So shield stacking is OP,even you cant deni it, but you stil vote no ? seems legit. Open your eyes and start thinking, or soon we will have cyrodil fool of sorcs and nb`s + some random class colored zergs ... Oh waith , he already look like this. Do you enjoy it ?

And i`l tell you what exploits have with all this. I know players, good players, and i watch them on twitch.tv and when they found a bug/inbalance/ or exploit they say - I'll report it, but they never do. Gues why ?:) Most of the players dont go to PTS to find and report bugs, they go only to pick /before others/ the most op skills and to "rule" in cyro. Is the same with inbalanced skills. We all know if we report them to ZoS and IF they balance them we will FINALY have a slight chanse to enjoy a game which is not based on OP classes or skills but is based of player skills to play. But what we do, we find this skills and we "exploit" them on max feeding our ego. Is sad. Many move already, more will follow. Pity.

I only use hardened ward on my sorc cause the other shields are ugly, nothing beats that pretty purple bubble

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

dday3six wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

Shields not negating dots and crits would be a better start, imo.

They don't negate DoTs

Perhaps you think I mean purge/remove them. No I mean once a shield is up it a dot cannot be applied to the hp of the shield. I know if it's applied before the shield goes up it will continue to tick on the target's health.

And I'm telling you, that's not the case.

FriedEggSandwich · November 2015

No...

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Make shields critable, problem solved. One skill make the entire build/crit/ useless. Balance eh...

Nope, that's not a valid option. Not while shields a) can't crit themselves (i.e. I can't get a 17k ward crit)

you get 15-17k without crit even now .

make them critable or add 10 sek cast cd. or bring other 2 underdog classes up to sorc lvl.

pls tell me what chanse magic user/ nm the class/ have agains the sorc? once you get overal dmg reduce from shields and second you get even higher magic dmg reduce form Harness Magicka ( i wont even count the 100+ cp points you spend on Hardy)

I can get 12K with 41,500 magicka and 100 points into Bastion. Only people with 15-17K Wards are Emperors or people making stupid builds to maximize their magicka like Mage Stone and Necropotence, Magelight, Bound aegis togglemancer garbage builds. The players with 1500+ CPs don't exist any more.

We talk abou the shields and you can EASILY stack 15k withou 100 point in bastion and without emperor(and is spamable) I give up. I play templar and sorcs cant kill me / if we match the skills/ and i just move away. Seems you guys love the lack of balance. Enjoy it then. And pls, dont forgeth the exploits, this make it even more funy to play. Cheers.

No one here is saying the harness + hardened shield stack is not OP. We're just saying that individual shield strength is not the problem or the fact they can't be crit.

Do you see ANY sorc runing with only one shield ? So shield stacking is OP,even you cant deni it, but you stil vote no ? seems legit. Open your eyes and start thinking, or soon we will have cyrodil fool of sorcs and nb`s + some random class colored zergs ... Oh waith , he already look like this. Do you enjoy it ?

And i`l tell you what exploits have with all this. I know players, good players, and i watch them on twitch.tv and when they found a bug/inbalance/ or exploit they say - I'll report it, but they never do. Gues why ?:) Most of the players dont go to PTS to find and report bugs, they go only to pick /before others/ the most op skills and to "rule" in cyro. Is the same with inbalanced skills. We all know if we report them to ZoS and IF they balance them we will FINALY have a slight chanse to enjoy a game which is not based on OP classes or skills but is based of player skills to play. But what we do, we find this skills and we "exploit" them on max feeding our ego. Is sad. Many move already, more will follow. Pity.

I only use hardened ward in cyrodiil, and mine is only 9.6k. I prefer to wear 2 pieces of heavy and buff-up with boundless storm. I still need my ward though to fight the highest damaging players. It annoys me when I see people asking for nerfs to my class ward when I know that their reasoning is shield-stacking, and I don't even shield-stack. You have a very cynical attitude and not a lot of faith in humanity it seems. "shield-stacking is op so nerf hardened ward" - where does this logic stem from? A lack of understanding of mechanics.

Darnathian · November 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

runkorkoeb17_ESO wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

and we all know that other classes are just as hard to kill if not harder. Let these people circle jerk each other in their own blissful ignorance.

just LOL

No, not lol. I faught a templar yesterday who i had almost killed, literally got him to a point where he had no health left a light attack would have killed him, and poof full health. DK's who can do the same. Nightblades who move so quick they are out of the range of my detect pots before they can even work.

all classes are equally hard to kill, if you die easily all that means is there is a fault in how you built said character.

What game do you play? When you write some *** like this how do you expect that we will believe to the other things that you wrote.

I dunno, what game do you play?

Blessing of Restoration can be a stronger heal for a DK than Breath of Life for a Templar. That's thanks to Major Mending from Igneous Shield and Burning Heart passive when you have Spiked Armor active (which is always). A DK I play with gets 12-13k heal crits from BoR, when on my Sorc I get only ~6k crits.

And this is a magicka build I guess. Just check how good are magicka DKs. And again first you have to cast a buff then a heal.
And these values how did you get them. 6k for sorcs. As a DK with the skills that you listed you have 12% more healing recieved and 30% more healing done from the shield. 6k*1.30*1.12 = 8.7k heal. Even if you have 8 more from Coag blood it will be equal to 9.36k. All the other heal effects are accessible to your sorc too.

Yep most of them are. In this case said DK is running 5 x heavy armor and benefits from Rapid Mending and he can also afford better distribution of CPs into Blessed and Quick Recovery because he doesn't have to plonk 100 into bastion or split between Thamaturge and Elemental Expert. No major sacrifice made on the damage for that healing power.

I'm not trying to argue magica sorc is not in a better place than magicka DK. That much is obvious and I've been saying magicka DK needs some buffs. All I'm saying is that like lucky28 said a well built DK can heal impressively quick. Which is a fact and you calling it out as BS was totally wrong.

My statement is still factually correct, that BoR + 42% bonus from igneous and burning heart is a heal on par if not better than BoL (for self heals only). It will reliably give you a burst heal, when BoL's burst can go to other people.

Come on man. You lost me.

That Magicka DK you reference has zero chance of killing you. Lol what does the heal matter. Also it's rediculous he is using a non class heal instead of gdb. Buts that is where we are at.

It was a response to a comment that said DKs can't heal fast enough. I explained how they can as I play with a DK that does. He is the CC tank in my group. His damage is not too bad, he has plenty of Max Magicka and Spell Damage but his role is not there to be a primary DD. We have 2 NBs and a Sorc for that role

His chances of killing me 1v1, if I'm not afk, are very very small. That is because of two issues:
1) Shield stack of hardened + harness is OP and he'll never get through that
2) Magicka DK doesn't have much burst. Take Flight is phys damage and the execute is useless when playing s&b heavy.

The second is a problem with DKs which needs addressing. The first is an issue with shield stacking which all experienced sorcs keep saying that also needs addressing.

Reducing the size of Hardened to make it scale with HP will make it like a ~5k shield. It still won't solve the problem of stacking two shields against magicka builds as Harness being a Light Armor skill will always scale with magicka. What will happen, is we'll have Sorcs getting instagibbed by stamina builds right left and centre. That is not an acceptable proposal.

The irony of all this, is that the thread was made by a stamina NB who admitted that he "rips though shields" (quote for reference).

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Yeah as stam i rip through shields i just wish magic people could have same benfit as stam.

Yet despite acknowledging that stam builds have no problem with shields, he's still asking for a nerf to the Sorc shield.

You get an awesome for this post.

Darnathian · November 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

As Ez said, you guys have no idea what you're talking about and how the game works. You're just hopping on a nerf bandwagon fueled by your lack of understanding and bias, with 0 arguments passing even a basic logic test. Then you pat each other on the back for the exemplary show of ignorance. At least it's a hilarious spectacle

Whether or not they support the nerf, they are right something needs to be changed. They just don't understand the game or your class as well as you do. Frankly neither do I.

However, it doesn't take a top pvper to understand that Sorcs shield stacking needs to be addressed and NB burst needs to be tuned down. Any one that argues that should be the targets of critisism.

Surprise attack and ambush spamming are rediculous. Won't even touch my nb with that cheese.

Darnathian · November 2015

CyrusArya wrote: »

@dodgehopper_ESO What others are telling you and what I will reiterate is that you have no idea what you are talking about, and your rants are worthless in terms of providing insight for class changes. I only glanced over your massive wall of text, but what I drew from it is that you are either clueless or simply do not play PvP at the same level/have the understanding of the current state of the game as some us do. And yet you still have vehement opinions. That's the problem.

What I detest about this forum is how so many people with no grasp, knowledge, or perspective call for fundamental design changes to things that they clearly have no investment in or understanding of. Its the only reason I made an account, so that if ZoS does monitor this *** hole they can hear counter arguments to specifically people like you.

And my counter argument is simply this: Hardened Ward is the crux of magicka sorcs survivability. Even if other forms of mitigation exist in some way, that doesn't change this fact. It is to sorcs what cloak is to NBs and BoL to templars: an exclusive and unique mechanic that defines the class. It is not a parallel to blazing/igneous shield and that is why it doesn't scale in a similar fashion. If the suggested change is implemented, sorcs will be stripped of a core mechanic and become cannon fodder to any basic stamina build.

All we are saying is this: Don't post convoluted rants when you have no perspective on what you speak on.That is if you want people to take you seriously in the future, cus I know I wont.

And that's your opinion. Others have a right for an opinion too. Hence these forums. Sorry some of us aren't as smart or good as you. But we are smart enough to see the system is flawed.

At the very least make magicka DKs and Blazing shield scale off magicka too. Speaking for DKS designed to take a lot of damage the would go a long ways in helping thier survivability.

Would you be okay with that?

Derra · November 2015

No...

AfkNinja wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

AfkNinja wrote: »

Health, Mana and Stamina need to be unlinked from damage. Stacking max magicka should only increase your resource pool not contribute damage. Unlink the resources and Hybrid builds will work again. No need to nerf Hardened Ward.

That wont really do anything other than lower the damage across the board if you think about it.

Not if you adjust the modifiers to account for not getting dmg from resources. The goal would be to separate your resource pool from dmg which would make your choices for HP/MP/STAM more important. Instead of being able to just stack 1 you would now have to think about your build. Once again, it would also reaaaaaally help hybrid's to return.

Then you have everyone who can running with as little resource as possible while having just enough regen to sustain for an infinite amount of time.
What it would do is enable every class to go for an infinite sustain max dmg build except for sorcs while enabling them to run an extra chunk of hp because statpoints in resources would be a waste entirely. You realize that every other defensive skill in the game scales of the dmg stat AND resource and that this is not a bad thing?

It would not help hybrids a bit because they´d still be outperformed by someone only stacking 1 type of dmg.

Titan1373 · November 2015

Yes it should scale of health like 'every other class'

Let's all stop pretending sorcs don't need a major nerf.

Derra · November 2015

No...

Titan1373 wrote: »

Let's all stop pretending sorcs don't need a major nerf.

Just like NBs you mean?

Why not just buff Templars and DKs for solo and smallscale?

Maulkin · November 2015

No...

Titan1373 wrote: »

Let's all stop pretending sorcs don't need a major nerf.

Said the stamblade that needs an even bigger one. Let me quote you from the Nerf Cloak thread...

Titan1373 wrote: »

Please nerf paper. Paper is completely OP and not fair. It's ruining the game for me. Please bring balance to this game. Scissors is fine though.

Signed,
Rock

Forums in a nutshell...

...oh the irony

zornyan · November 2015

The problem is for most classes by choosing magicka or stamina sacrifices are made.

A magicka templar wants to heal/dps? Say bye to any armor, no escape options, and put out less damage than your stam cousins.

Want to be stamina? Say good bye to heals and self sustain.

Magicka dk, say bye to any sort of damage that isn't a DoT.

Stam dk? Become a wrecking blow spammers that had no class skills.

Magicka nb? Give up damage in exchange for being a sap build with sustain.

Stam nb? Have vigor and rally as your only heals, become a burst ganker.

Magicka sorc? Just put everything into magicka , you get to be hugely tanky, have huge burst dps, have great sustain, and great mobility!

That's the issue.