PvP Podcast (Episode 7 Uploaded)

xaraan · October 2015

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sorry, the ball groups in ESO are anything but strategic or chess-like. Theres generally 2 directions you can go on the map, towards one faction or the other. Sometimes you hit a keep behind the front line. What you do with your group is the same regardless of where you are. This isnt chess. Its checkers maybe, with a board sized down to 6x6.

As someone whos led guilds in other games, very large ones - Ive simply never been interested in large scale PvP in this game due to the nature of how overly simplistic large guild play was made after AOE caps/dynamic ult changes. TSYM pretty much invented the ball group to the population here, and it was never the same after that. Im sure there will be lots of people to come post otherwise though - have at it.

OK, gotta piggy back onto this thread b/c it continues on this comment. I watched your playback of your stream from Tuesday night b/c you were going on about our group when you were fighting us outside of Ash. I have no problem that people enjoy 1vXing in the game or dueling, but first off you should be aware that is not what PvP in ESO is built around. It's built around fighting groups and objectives and some players will enjoy that sort of game play over 1v1s. I personally get bored by 1v1 style fights and prefer the teamwork involved in taking objectives and working towards a bigger goal than a single fight.

That being said, I think anyone can read over my posts here and see that I'm against giant zergs and think that several things should be done to combat them. Unlike you guys though, it seems that I still think it should take a group to kill a group, even if it's a smaller group killing a bigger one, and not a solo guy wiping out a dozen plus b/c they can drop five ulti's in a row. I think what bothered me most was how off-base you were with many of your complaints.

1. You state "this is what's wrong with the game" and we are lagging out the server with giant groups. We were running a 24 man group that might have been missing a person or two by the time this fight rolled out. We've fought many fights with 24v24 and had no lag. So no, a 24 man group does not lag out the server. What lagged out the server was your side. Were they "with" you, no, they were not in your group, but I hope you realize you were the one in the zerg there. We were fighting over 60 blues with open spawn at Ash (we came to siege and found out most of the alliance was there so decided to go out fighting).

2. You stated many times that we just "move here or there" and "spamming heals" that takes no skill. But then you continually talk about maneuvers we make - which would be strategy - using things like line of site, timed prox dets, ulti's to fight a much larger force. You complain about spamming heal despite the fact that once again, we have three times our number spamming attacks on us (on top of siege). Or complain that we just breath of life - yes, giving one player out of 24 a decent heal everytime we cast is all that's needed to survive vs. those numbers. Just the fact you think 24 guys fighting that many takes no skill shows your disconnect ("as many as we've picked off, look how many there still are" - b/c we did things like moving back for our dead). Or "they just move behind house, move to flag, etc - no skill" - you mean, using line of site and also avoiding the siege you were trying to set up on us in your video? You are right, we should just stand in your damage, not heal, and let everyone attack us freely. Also "rotating barrier" - we were not. You'd be surprised how few healers vs fighters we run in our group, we use barrier when we are clashing into other groups, but we don't have enough to rotate them.

3. "At Release" - "if you tried doing what they are doing now at release, they'd be busted". UH - no, we've been running as a group since release and doing just as well. Our tactics change of course as the game changes, but that wouldn't magically destroy us. In fact, you realize that AoE caps are hurting our group more than the 60 blues hitting us with attacks and siege right? And all those things you said would destroy a group at release, we used to deal with at release.

Like I said, I agree with many of your points (though not all) when you talk about zergs needing to be addressed. We used to prefer to run in groups of less than 12 (anywhere from 4-12 before last patch). But no, the game shouldn't revolve around 1vXing.

Fact is, if what we were doing took no skill, it wouldn't take 60+ people to take us out - and it would only take another 24 man blue group to do the same thing. In the end, we got tired of fighting against the spawn being right there and the lead just called stack and fight until wiping when we were finally beat. We probably could have just moved north and strung out the blues as we moved and gotten away as we killed them further away from their spawn. Does it take skill to kill one or two guys if you jump us when we are in a group? No, it doesn't and hopefully groups don't think it does.

Though I might agree with some of your points about zerging, all the inaccurate noise you mixed in the other night keeps it from being taken seriously IMO. And remember, in the end, the game is about groups fighting groups in an alliance war, not dueling. Not that very small man fights cannot take place, but you aren't meant to solo take keeps and solo run scrolls and solo wipe groups.

Very good points man, really getting tired of people complaining about groups and automatically equating group with zerg. This is an RvR game which will always be centered around group gameplay.

On a side note, our 24 man blue group has wiped you

You and haxus are about the only groups that can run 24 or smaller size and we know we actually have a fight on our hands. Unfortunately, both you guys seem to be able to fill out a full 24 man group more often than us and if we hit you with like 16 or less, we know it's not gonna go well most of the time. Doesn't mean we won't do it anyway

MisterBigglesworth · October 2015

There is no "skill".
There is only broken game design and the people who benefit from it.

Ghost-Shot · October 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sorry, the ball groups in ESO are anything but strategic or chess-like. Theres generally 2 directions you can go on the map, towards one faction or the other. Sometimes you hit a keep behind the front line. What you do with your group is the same regardless of where you are. This isnt chess. Its checkers maybe, with a board sized down to 6x6.

As someone whos led guilds in other games, very large ones - Ive simply never been interested in large scale PvP in this game due to the nature of how overly simplistic large guild play was made after AOE caps/dynamic ult changes. TSYM pretty much invented the ball group to the population here, and it was never the same after that. Im sure there will be lots of people to come post otherwise though - have at it.

OK, gotta piggy back onto this thread b/c it continues on this comment. I watched your playback of your stream from Tuesday night b/c you were going on about our group when you were fighting us outside of Ash. I have no problem that people enjoy 1vXing in the game or dueling, but first off you should be aware that is not what PvP in ESO is built around. It's built around fighting groups and objectives and some players will enjoy that sort of game play over 1v1s. I personally get bored by 1v1 style fights and prefer the teamwork involved in taking objectives and working towards a bigger goal than a single fight.

That being said, I think anyone can read over my posts here and see that I'm against giant zergs and think that several things should be done to combat them. Unlike you guys though, it seems that I still think it should take a group to kill a group, even if it's a smaller group killing a bigger one, and not a solo guy wiping out a dozen plus b/c they can drop five ulti's in a row. I think what bothered me most was how off-base you were with many of your complaints.

1. You state "this is what's wrong with the game" and we are lagging out the server with giant groups. We were running a 24 man group that might have been missing a person or two by the time this fight rolled out. We've fought many fights with 24v24 and had no lag. So no, a 24 man group does not lag out the server. What lagged out the server was your side. Were they "with" you, no, they were not in your group, but I hope you realize you were the one in the zerg there. We were fighting over 60 blues with open spawn at Ash (we came to siege and found out most of the alliance was there so decided to go out fighting).

2. You stated many times that we just "move here or there" and "spamming heals" that takes no skill. But then you continually talk about maneuvers we make - which would be strategy - using things like line of site, timed prox dets, ulti's to fight a much larger force. You complain about spamming heal despite the fact that once again, we have three times our number spamming attacks on us (on top of siege). Or complain that we just breath of life - yes, giving one player out of 24 a decent heal everytime we cast is all that's needed to survive vs. those numbers. Just the fact you think 24 guys fighting that many takes no skill shows your disconnect ("as many as we've picked off, look how many there still are" - b/c we did things like moving back for our dead). Or "they just move behind house, move to flag, etc - no skill" - you mean, using line of site and also avoiding the siege you were trying to set up on us in your video? You are right, we should just stand in your damage, not heal, and let everyone attack us freely. Also "rotating barrier" - we were not. You'd be surprised how few healers vs fighters we run in our group, we use barrier when we are clashing into other groups, but we don't have enough to rotate them.

3. "At Release" - "if you tried doing what they are doing now at release, they'd be busted". UH - no, we've been running as a group since release and doing just as well. Our tactics change of course as the game changes, but that wouldn't magically destroy us. In fact, you realize that AoE caps are hurting our group more than the 60 blues hitting us with attacks and siege right? And all those things you said would destroy a group at release, we used to deal with at release.

Like I said, I agree with many of your points (though not all) when you talk about zergs needing to be addressed. We used to prefer to run in groups of less than 12 (anywhere from 4-12 before last patch). But no, the game shouldn't revolve around 1vXing.

Fact is, if what we were doing took no skill, it wouldn't take 60+ people to take us out - and it would only take another 24 man blue group to do the same thing. In the end, we got tired of fighting against the spawn being right there and the lead just called stack and fight until wiping when we were finally beat. We probably could have just moved north and strung out the blues as we moved and gotten away as we killed them further away from their spawn. Does it take skill to kill one or two guys if you jump us when we are in a group? No, it doesn't and hopefully groups don't think it does.

Though I might agree with some of your points about zerging, all the inaccurate noise you mixed in the other night keeps it from being taken seriously IMO. And remember, in the end, the game is about groups fighting groups in an alliance war, not dueling. Not that very small man fights cannot take place, but you aren't meant to solo take keeps and solo run scrolls and solo wipe groups.

Very good points man, really getting tired of people complaining about groups and automatically equating group with zerg. This is an RvR game which will always be centered around group gameplay.

On a side note, our 24 man blue group has wiped you

You and haxus are about the only groups that can run 24 or smaller size and we know we actually have a fight on our hands. Unfortunately, both you guys seem to be able to fill out a full 24 man group more often than us and if we hit you with like 16 or less, we know it's not gonna go well most of the time. Doesn't mean we won't do it anyway

We are all in that boat atm, its not uncommon to be stuck with 16-20 for us atm.

Manoekin · October 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

I do not think he was really attacking you as individuals just the way you play. I mean you literally would move behind some object and stand on crown. This isnt "skill" this is common sense to get away from something.

1. You mention how its not your numbers causing the lag however it is that playstyle. Your group legitimately had 1 person spam purge and 1 person spam healing springs they entire clip I saw, on top of this you crutch on the AoE cap. Not flaming you in any way its the way the game works atm. You can't honestly think it isn't a cheesy playstyle? At least personally I never experience lag when I turn a corner or port to a keep when its just a MASSIVE amount of people. When I do experience lag is when there is one of them groups you know a Ball group in the vicinity and its not even limited to around the keep or resource its stretches for a wide area of the map. So saying your "numbers" isnt causing the lag is correct. However your PLAYSTYLE is.

2. On your discussion of strategy. Okay its a stretch to think that moving a mass of people from point A to point B is tactics. I mean its just FOLLOW CROWN TACTICAL MANEUVER HOO. The map of cyrodil is a joke the most strategic thing you can do is like back cap something and even then its just a PvDoor session as fast as you can. I do not think, I cant speak for him, but im assuming he does not have issue that your healers are healing. What he is criticizing is that is ALL they do. I mean they legitimately use 1-3 skills tops. I mean I get it their role is to heal you but that type of playstyle can not be fullfilling or even enjoyable. Hell I heal for small scale groups where we aren't benefiting from taking half damage from AoEs all around us and even I can find time to weave in a debuff, a shards, and execute, or some other utility skill to aid the group and not just spam BoL, Healing Springs, or Purge. Even doing this, not bragging at all I am *** at this game, even doing this gets old really quick. I wanna kill people too damnit! I will reiterate, Im assuming he isnt bashing you as players, what he is implying is that this PLAYSTYLE you are so adamantly trying to defend takes soo little amount of skill thats its disgusting. Hell when I came back to this game after a long break and rolled up a temp to support we ran around with Prett and company a few times and we even rolled in a ball group for like half a week. Let me tell you as a single healer in a group of like 20 it was *** easy mode. I loaded up my bars with skills providing passives and I kept immovable up. It was *** and I honestly felt like I was not contributing at all even being the ONLY healer in the group. I would just keep up buffs and spam 3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333.

3. The way that group was moving around during that part of the stream would 100% be wiped by a 5 man squad easy at release. You mention how your tactics have changed, the tactic that changed is the crutching on the AoE cap that you guys were doing. That 60 man DC zerg you speak of did any of it at all look coordinated to you? Did you see any of them sync up ults? or you know engage you together? No. They were not benefiting from AoE caps at all cus the group that I saw in that video would just find a small bunched up group of players and just TACTICAL MANEUVER B FOLLOW CROWN HOO! It wasnt like it was a 60 man blob going into your what 18-20? No it was like 15-20 *** 2-3 man groups or solo players skirting the edges of the choo-choo trying to do anything to stay outta the way and try to even manage to dent you.

I watch Fengrush alot because I have known him for a very long time so I am supporting him. He rarely bashes anyone for their lack of skill. Outside of the random person rocking a bow in the sewers. What he does bash and *** about and has his MERIKA *** YAH moments over is the BALL GROUP PLAYSTYLE and the AoE CAPS WHICH ARE EMPOWERING this tactic to the nth degree.

Anway again I am in no way criticizing the people as players just that type of playstyle.

Sorry for long post.

1. What are we not supposed to use support skills? Spamming healing springs can actually be beneficial to the groups DPS now if you're using spell power cure, which some people in our group do I think. Also, it's not the play style that we use. We can have nights where there's no lag at all doing what you saw in the video against less enemies. We only experience problems when we run into enemy groups like that.

2. You're simplifying positioning, which is a part of tactics even if you for some reason think it's not. I can simplify things too. Example: on the way down to that Ash fight (it's probably on his past broadcasts or w/e too) Fengrush and Essa + someone gank a few of our members before they see more people coming in to res them and they proceed to immediately run into the nearby tower. What I take from this is that Fengrush and Essa are glorified gankers who only move from point a to point b and have no skill. If they were so good, why would they need to hide? All they did was what we did at a smaller scale. I think it's much easier to do when you don't have to ensure 20 other players are moving in your same direction. I'm one of the healers, and I spam purge(cleanse, which I have to build for to spam it at all). I also use: repentance, breath of life, entropy, shards, proxy, healing ritual (with magelight on both bars). That's every skill on my bars. You're simplifying it from an outsiders perspective based on what you see, and not what you know. You may have done that in your group, but not this group (maybe that's why you felt so ineffective).

3. You saw the blues at Ash spread out like that because their strategy is to just res until they finally wear us down. Everytime they come at us in a ball they get demolished because they're not typically good players. Also, for your claim that we would be wiped at release I don't think you know what you're talking about lol. AOE caps have been in place since launch and were worse for normal abilities than they are now. The only things uncapped at release were siege (still are) and ultimates. You don't know what group you're talking about. If this was release that fight would have been even worse for the blues. I ran with some of these people early on and I wouldn't have called us a ball group, but we stayed organized. We regularly rolled over any Naw or Fixate groups even with those players being emp DK's. The group in that video that would have been wiped by 5 good players at release is the group of 60 blues lol.

BossTuggles · October 2015

So you are telling me when you are all stacked up near them palisade things just sitting still. An ult bomb at release wouldn't have killed you? Yes I do know what group you were in and Yes I still believe if you fought like you were fighting in that video you woulda been wiped by a good group of 5. Again you are all taking this like personal attacks against you. I am criticizing the PLAYSTYLE. Pretty sure in every post I even have it capitalized.

Manoekin · October 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

So you are telling me when you are all stacked up near them palisade things just sitting still. An ult bomb at release wouldn't have killed you? Yes I do know what group you were in and Yes I still believe if you fought like you were fighting in that video you woulda been wiped by a good group of 5. Again you are all taking this like personal attacks against you. I am criticizing the PLAYSTYLE. Pretty sure in every post I even have it capitalized.

Yes. That's what I'm saying. I played with and against the "good" players at release. You're exaggerating the impact 5 players could make in an open field environment during that time. If you're imagining them hitting us while the other 60 DC are around us as well, then that kind of defeats your own point doesn't it?

You are personally attacking us. You're dumbing down what is happening as a means to criticize how we play and by extension ourselves. The simple fact is that you don't like how we play and that is it. You can say that without inventing ways to try and make us seem like just a bunch of robots.

BossTuggles · October 2015

So you are taking personal offense from me criticizing a playstyle in the game that the vast majority of people in this game throughout its existince do not like? I think I am being civil with this too. I am speaking from experience that playing as healer in those ball groups is a VERY dumbed down version of a healer in this game. Not saying those players are bad just what they are asked/forced/ whatever to do is in no way (i guess this is where opinions come into play) as fun as doing more than just what you purport to do while in those groups. Mano when you arent with those groups of yours and just with a couple buddies dont you feel like you are accomplishing more? Do you not feel more vital? from a personal perspective.

And one Negate near them Palisades that group was toasted with a couple ults. You are under appreciating the amount of damage those synergies did.

Anyway just wanted to throw my 2 cents in back to eating my Greek Yogurt and getting Diabeetus.

Ghost-Shot · October 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

So you are taking personal offense from me criticizing a playstyle in the game that the vast majority of people in this game throughout its existince do not like? I think I am being civil with this too. I am speaking from experience that playing as healer in those ball groups is a VERY dumbed down version of a healer in this game. Not saying those players are bad just what they are asked/forced/ whatever to do is in no way (i guess this is where opinions come into play) as fun as doing more than just what you purport to do while in those groups. Mano when you arent with those groups of yours and just with a couple buddies dont you feel like you are accomplishing more? Do you not feel more vital? from a personal perspective.

And one Negate near them Palisades that group was toasted with a couple ults. You are under appreciating the amount of damage those synergies did.

No we take offense because you people like you are too ignorant to actually understand our playstyle and you try to simplify it to the point where you say we have no skill. We are playing an RvR game, the group size is 24, accept that or move on to a game that fits your playstyle better.

FENGRUSH · October 2015

I think Tuggles summed it up pretty well. People are still taking it personally that these ball groups take a lot of skill. Keep at it though, no one is buying into it. Tsym literally recruited nobodies and trained them to follow crown and pound heals. It worked. VE and Alacrity have better players than they did with better equipment and much more capable solo.

Alacrity has always done well, even since release. Theyve always been a good guild, and I can have a conversation like I did with manoekin last night even if it ends with me not being able to agree or have a discussion after him telling me hes having fun running around in that ball group.

The real issue is there is no small group play because of AOE caps. Everything more or less is a ball group on PC environment now. Youre either in one or youre getting overrun by one or lagging out by one while fighting somewhere else in the map. This design is garbage. Everyone can adapt, so lets adapt to a more balanced setup where ball groups arent being protected by AOE caps, throw on dynamic ult gen with a better formula, rework skills like purge, rapids and barrier. All of these things add to making ball groups ridiculously strong and doing so at an unfair advantage that takes away talent and focuses on numbers brought to the fight more than anything else.

Sorry if you took offense Alacrity, and I know theres people that watch the stream. It doesnt really change things. Id be happy to have a discussion on TS on the stream with some people about it though. Ive seen some haxus members agree with me, alacrity as well. VE members pretty much show up in every thread about AOE caps talking about how we shouldnt change things though and taking everything way too personally so not sure who to bring from their department.

Ghost-Shot · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think Tuggles summed it up pretty well. People are still taking it personally that these ball groups take a lot of skill. Keep at it though, no one is buying into it. Tsym literally recruited nobodies and trained them to follow crown and pound heals. It worked. VE and Alacrity have better players than they did with better equipment and much more capable solo.

Alacrity has always done well, even since release. Theyve always been a good guild, and I can have a conversation like I did with manoekin last night even if it ends with me not being able to agree or have a discussion after him telling me hes having fun running around in that ball group.

The real issue is there is no small group play because of AOE caps. Everything more or less is a ball group on PC environment now. Youre either in one or youre getting overrun by one or lagging out by one while fighting somewhere else in the map. This design is garbage. Everyone can adapt, so lets adapt to a more balanced setup where ball groups arent being protected by AOE caps, throw on dynamic ult gen with a better formula, rework skills like purge, rapids and barrier. All of these things add to making ball groups ridiculously strong and doing so at an unfair advantage that takes away talent and focuses on numbers brought to the fight more than anything else.

Sorry if you took offense Alacrity, and I know theres people that watch the stream. It doesnt really change things. Id be happy to have a discussion on TS on the stream with some people about it though. Ive seen some haxus members agree with me, alacrity as well. VE members pretty much show up in every thread about AOE caps talking about how we shouldnt change things though and taking everything way too personally so not sure who to bring from their department.

Even if you dont like our playstyle it doesnt make everyone in a group unskilled players. In VE we have verrying opinions on AOE caps so you cant say that because a couple people post their opinion about AOE caps doesnt make it everyones opinion. I think we can all agree that there needs to be viable options for small groups but this games pvp is all about cyrodiil keep takes/defenses and group gameplay.

Darnathian · October 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

So you are taking personal offense from me criticizing a playstyle in the game that the vast majority of people in this game throughout its existince do not like? I think I am being civil with this too. I am speaking from experience that playing as healer in those ball groups is a VERY dumbed down version of a healer in this game. Not saying those players are bad just what they are asked/forced/ whatever to do is in no way (i guess this is where opinions come into play) as fun as doing more than just what you purport to do while in those groups. Mano when you arent with those groups of yours and just with a couple buddies dont you feel like you are accomplishing more? Do you not feel more vital? from a personal perspective.

And one Negate near them Palisades that group was toasted with a couple ults. You are under appreciating the amount of damage those synergies did.

Anyway just wanted to throw my 2 cents in back to eating my Greek Yogurt and getting Diabeetus.

How can you say the vast majority dislike? Lol. For every one of you there are 24 of them.

xaraan · October 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

So you are telling me when you are all stacked up near them palisade things just sitting still. An ult bomb at release wouldn't have killed you? Yes I do know what group you were in and Yes I still believe if you fought like you were fighting in that video you woulda been wiped by a good group of 5. Again you are all taking this like personal attacks against you. I am criticizing the PLAYSTYLE. Pretty sure in every post I even have it capitalized.

You speak as though we don't have the ability to alter playstyle, but no, most of us were actually playing at release and when getting hit with ultimates, moved out of them or dropped out own (remember when veil of blades gave really good mitigation for everyone).

xaraan · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think Tuggles summed it up pretty well. People are still taking it personally that these ball groups take a lot of skill. Keep at it though, no one is buying into it. Tsym literally recruited nobodies and trained them to follow crown and pound heals. It worked. VE and Alacrity have better players than they did with better equipment and much more capable solo.

Alacrity has always done well, even since release. Theyve always been a good guild, and I can have a conversation like I did with manoekin last night even if it ends with me not being able to agree or have a discussion after him telling me hes having fun running around in that ball group.

The real issue is there is no small group play because of AOE caps. Everything more or less is a ball group on PC environment now. Youre either in one or youre getting overrun by one or lagging out by one while fighting somewhere else in the map. This design is garbage. Everyone can adapt, so lets adapt to a more balanced setup where ball groups arent being protected by AOE caps, throw on dynamic ult gen with a better formula, rework skills like purge, rapids and barrier. All of these things add to making ball groups ridiculously strong and doing so at an unfair advantage that takes away talent and focuses on numbers brought to the fight more than anything else.

Sorry if you took offense Alacrity, and I know theres people that watch the stream. It doesnt really change things. Id be happy to have a discussion on TS on the stream with some people about it though. Ive seen some haxus members agree with me, alacrity as well. VE members pretty much show up in every thread about AOE caps talking about how we shouldnt change things though and taking everything way too personally so not sure who to bring from their department.

I'm not Alacrity, Alacrity isn't really around anymore as a full up guild and those guys tend to run in other groups now.

And it's not that I took offense in general, but the saltiness comes from your inaccurate tirade the other night. In fact, just your term "ball group" is meant as a slight and we do a heck of a lot more than ball up on crown (otherwise, like I said, we'd never win a fight against numbers like the 60+ zerg you were in the other night).

You are correct in that the meta of the game has shifted to numbers meaning more than skill.

This, however, does not equal - having numbers means having no skill. Like I said, we've played in groups from launch (back when the game was perfect in your words with the dynamic ulti and no aoe caps) and still wrecked larger and smaller groups. We still wreck bigger groups now, it's just much more difficult and if the group is as skilled, then numbers will matter. If we have 12 and VE has 18, they will usually win that fight b/c we are both skilled groups (skilled- crazy I know) - and yes, we tried several times tonight to attack their group with our 14 man and couldn't dent them b/c of numbers. However, there were several other large groups we did take out pretty easily throughout the evening.

I have no problem with some of the changes you mention. Yes, get rid of AoE caps (that will make our group stronger actually). Dynamic ulti? To a degree I'd like to see it, but not for crits (DK is very strong right now with a good build, if someone is telling you it's not, they don't know what they are doing with the build). Fine with reworking skills like barrier and purge (rapid, not so much- the complaint that it shouldn't allow you to retreat from CCs was stupid, sorry CC is already too important in the game - but on top of that, let's go back to the old version of Immovable as well). I have made several (what I think are good) ideas earlier in this thread that would do additional things to address zergs than some of the power changes you mention. In fact, some of my ideas would do more to address groups building up to 60+ man groups - which is what is lagging out the server the most. But almost every change you mention would make our group stronger and able to handle the other strong groups easier (though I'm judging that based on what I see them running now, I'm sure they'd adapt).

But let's get one thing straight - how much do you think "balling up" against superior numbers helps? That only helps against lesser numbers. What you were complaining about on your stream the other night was against a force 3 times our size - balling helps them against us, not much the other way around - those caps are hurting our numbers, not the 60 plus guys that have so many they can pile on dps, caps or not. We have to survive by using things like positioning, timing, having good builds that allow people to take damage as well as deal it, having healers that know when to spam heals and save magicka, etc. If you really think that having no AoE caps would make us spread out against a 60 man force so we could be single targetted down easier and less likely to get help or healing, then you must have not played in a group much even back at launch. Being in a group, and not working as a group, is just stupid strategy and that's what you are asking for when you complain about people "stacking on the crown" and the like.

In the end, the only thing I took personally was your narrow viewpoint at the time. Don't sit in a 60 man group of blues (even if you are personally in a group of 4) -- and fighting with siege -- and beside their spawn and complain about a 20 man group like they are the zerg and their playstyle is the problem.

hammayolettuce · October 2015

Dynamic ultimate gain of some sort and removal of AoE caps at the same time would turn every player with an AoE into a release DK, which if we're being honest was wildly overpowered. I think it should be one or the other or a reasonable compromise. If dynamic ultimate gain is implemented, AoE caps should remain, or ultimate gain must be calculated upon a hard limit of players. A total removal of AoE caps would only be reasonable with static ultimate generation. Our implied common ground in this whole discussion is that overwhelming numerical advantage is its own advantage, and does not need further support from game mechanics. We should also not forget that we can make numerical disadvantage an advantage if mechanics are implemented to reward smaller groups versus larger ones in excess.

I think the percentage of HP ultimate gain formula of 1.0 to 1.5 worked well and would work again, but crits should not generate further ult. That would be quite OP in this post impen world.

Manoekin · October 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

So you are taking personal offense from me criticizing a playstyle in the game that the vast majority of people in this game throughout its existince do not like? I think I am being civil with this too. I am speaking from experience that playing as healer in those ball groups is a VERY dumbed down version of a healer in this game. Not saying those players are bad just what they are asked/forced/ whatever to do is in no way (i guess this is where opinions come into play) as fun as doing more than just what you purport to do while in those groups. Mano when you arent with those groups of yours and just with a couple buddies dont you feel like you are accomplishing more? Do you not feel more vital? from a personal perspective.

And one Negate near them Palisades that group was toasted with a couple ults. You are under appreciating the amount of damage those synergies did.

Anyway just wanted to throw my 2 cents in back to eating my Greek Yogurt and getting Diabeetus.

When I'm with a small group I still have fun, but I know I'm not making much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Sure I feel important to the group, but I feel just as important in a raid group. I feel even more pressure in a larger raid because I want to keep everyone alive even though I know it's not really possible by myself, but I want to try my best. IMO my responsibility is the same regardless of group size, so yeah.

Also, one negate wouldn't mean anything as far as disrupting us because if this was release we'd all have immovable up 100%. Negate was used for resource regen back then. We would then get out of the ulti's and wipe the small group.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think Tuggles summed it up pretty well. People are still taking it personally that these ball groups take a lot of skill. Keep at it though, no one is buying into it. Tsym literally recruited nobodies and trained them to follow crown and pound heals. It worked. VE and Alacrity have better players than they did with better equipment and much more capable solo.

Alacrity has always done well, even since release. Theyve always been a good guild, and I can have a conversation like I did with manoekin last night even if it ends with me not being able to agree or have a discussion after him telling me hes having fun running around in that ball group.

The real issue is there is no small group play because of AOE caps. Everything more or less is a ball group on PC environment now. Youre either in one or youre getting overrun by one or lagging out by one while fighting somewhere else in the map. This design is garbage. Everyone can adapt, so lets adapt to a more balanced setup where ball groups arent being protected by AOE caps, throw on dynamic ult gen with a better formula, rework skills like purge, rapids and barrier. All of these things add to making ball groups ridiculously strong and doing so at an unfair advantage that takes away talent and focuses on numbers brought to the fight more than anything else.

Sorry if you took offense Alacrity, and I know theres people that watch the stream. It doesnt really change things. Id be happy to have a discussion on TS on the stream with some people about it though. Ive seen some haxus members agree with me, alacrity as well. VE members pretty much show up in every thread about AOE caps talking about how we shouldnt change things though and taking everything way too personally so not sure who to bring from their department.

As said, I'm the only member of Alacrity still playing ESO (some other still play but aren't currently in the guild). Using us as an example is good though, because we can go back to TSYM truly starting the ball group trend and Alacrity absolutely embarrassing them. We didn't run as tight as they did, but by today's definition people would call us a ball group too except we were actual good players. Training people to run in a tight ball is nice and everything, but it shouldn't be your basis for all guilds that run large groups.

I respect you man, and I agree with almost all of the things you want changed. I just think this whole thing is stupid. We can't judge a person's skill based off of their play style and I know that first hand. We need to just drop it and recognize people who perform well regardless of group size. We just need the game to be a fair playing field. Fighting among each other over dumb things like this is insane because we're not even fighting over the real issue. -_-

Huckdabuck · October 2015

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think Tuggles summed it up pretty well. People are still taking it personally that these ball groups take a lot of skill. Keep at it though, no one is buying into it. Tsym literally recruited nobodies and trained them to follow crown and pound heals. It worked. VE and Alacrity have better players than they did with better equipment and much more capable solo.

Alacrity has always done well, even since release. Theyve always been a good guild, and I can have a conversation like I did with manoekin last night even if it ends with me not being able to agree or have a discussion after him telling me hes having fun running around in that ball group.

The real issue is there is no small group play because of AOE caps. Everything more or less is a ball group on PC environment now. Youre either in one or youre getting overrun by one or lagging out by one while fighting somewhere else in the map. This design is garbage. Everyone can adapt, so lets adapt to a more balanced setup where ball groups arent being protected by AOE caps, throw on dynamic ult gen with a better formula, rework skills like purge, rapids and barrier. All of these things add to making ball groups ridiculously strong and doing so at an unfair advantage that takes away talent and focuses on numbers brought to the fight more than anything else.

Sorry if you took offense Alacrity, and I know theres people that watch the stream. It doesnt really change things. Id be happy to have a discussion on TS on the stream with some people about it though. Ive seen some haxus members agree with me, alacrity as well. VE members pretty much show up in every thread about AOE caps talking about how we shouldnt change things though and taking everything way too personally so not sure who to bring from their department.

Even if you dont like our playstyle it doesnt make everyone in a group unskilled players. In VE we have verrying opinions on AOE caps so you cant say that because a couple people post their opinion about AOE caps doesnt make it everyones opinion. I think we can all agree that there needs to be viable options for small groups but this games pvp is all about cyrodiil keep takes/defenses and group gameplay.

Read and comprehend this bolded statement @FENGRUSH . We are a guild but we are also individuals that think for ourselves when not balled up on crown and mindlessly pushing 2 buttons

. From what I've seen on the forums over the past week or so we have the following VE members:

@Joy_Division and @Takllin in the get rid of caps camp. So here's SOME VE members who agree with you!

@Zheg in the Devil's advocate camp. He's one VE member who is trying to make sure you guys are actually thinking about anything that could possibly get flubbed in the process.

@Satiar and myself in the don't care about the caps either way but would rather see dynamic ultimate back instead.

@hammayolettuce who posted above this and I am 100% in agreement with her statement. If you got both dynamic ult with the removal of AoE then we'd be seeing something along the lines of launch vampire DK's/Sorcs that could 1vTHEWORLD. And I'm sorry but there are only a select few who would want to ever see that again.

So either I missed a ton of post by VE folks who are Vehemently opposed to the removal of AoE caps or you are just mistaken by who is in VE and who is not. And if you're really looking to speak with someone in VE......try Bulby or @Satiar .

Derra · October 2015

xaraan wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

xaraan wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Sorry, the ball groups in ESO are anything but strategic or chess-like. Theres generally 2 directions you can go on the map, towards one faction or the other. Sometimes you hit a keep behind the front line. What you do with your group is the same regardless of where you are. This isnt chess. Its checkers maybe, with a board sized down to 6x6.

As someone whos led guilds in other games, very large ones - Ive simply never been interested in large scale PvP in this game due to the nature of how overly simplistic large guild play was made after AOE caps/dynamic ult changes. TSYM pretty much invented the ball group to the population here, and it was never the same after that. Im sure there will be lots of people to come post otherwise though - have at it.

OK, gotta piggy back onto this thread b/c it continues on this comment. I watched your playback of your stream from Tuesday night b/c you were going on about our group when you were fighting us outside of Ash. I have no problem that people enjoy 1vXing in the game or dueling, but first off you should be aware that is not what PvP in ESO is built around. It's built around fighting groups and objectives and some players will enjoy that sort of game play over 1v1s. I personally get bored by 1v1 style fights and prefer the teamwork involved in taking objectives and working towards a bigger goal than a single fight.

That being said, I think anyone can read over my posts here and see that I'm against giant zergs and think that several things should be done to combat them. Unlike you guys though, it seems that I still think it should take a group to kill a group, even if it's a smaller group killing a bigger one, and not a solo guy wiping out a dozen plus b/c they can drop five ulti's in a row. I think what bothered me most was how off-base you were with many of your complaints.

1. You state "this is what's wrong with the game" and we are lagging out the server with giant groups. We were running a 24 man group that might have been missing a person or two by the time this fight rolled out. We've fought many fights with 24v24 and had no lag. So no, a 24 man group does not lag out the server. What lagged out the server was your side. Were they "with" you, no, they were not in your group, but I hope you realize you were the one in the zerg there. We were fighting over 60 blues with open spawn at Ash (we came to siege and found out most of the alliance was there so decided to go out fighting).

2. You stated many times that we just "move here or there" and "spamming heals" that takes no skill. But then you continually talk about maneuvers we make - which would be strategy - using things like line of site, timed prox dets, ulti's to fight a much larger force. You complain about spamming heal despite the fact that once again, we have three times our number spamming attacks on us (on top of siege). Or complain that we just breath of life - yes, giving one player out of 24 a decent heal everytime we cast is all that's needed to survive vs. those numbers. Just the fact you think 24 guys fighting that many takes no skill shows your disconnect ("as many as we've picked off, look how many there still are" - b/c we did things like moving back for our dead). Or "they just move behind house, move to flag, etc - no skill" - you mean, using line of site and also avoiding the siege you were trying to set up on us in your video? You are right, we should just stand in your damage, not heal, and let everyone attack us freely. Also "rotating barrier" - we were not. You'd be surprised how few healers vs fighters we run in our group, we use barrier when we are clashing into other groups, but we don't have enough to rotate them.

3. "At Release" - "if you tried doing what they are doing now at release, they'd be busted". UH - no, we've been running as a group since release and doing just as well. Our tactics change of course as the game changes, but that wouldn't magically destroy us. In fact, you realize that AoE caps are hurting our group more than the 60 blues hitting us with attacks and siege right? And all those things you said would destroy a group at release, we used to deal with at release.

Like I said, I agree with many of your points (though not all) when you talk about zergs needing to be addressed. We used to prefer to run in groups of less than 12 (anywhere from 4-12 before last patch). But no, the game shouldn't revolve around 1vXing.

Fact is, if what we were doing took no skill, it wouldn't take 60+ people to take us out - and it would only take another 24 man blue group to do the same thing. In the end, we got tired of fighting against the spawn being right there and the lead just called stack and fight until wiping when we were finally beat. We probably could have just moved north and strung out the blues as we moved and gotten away as we killed them further away from their spawn. Does it take skill to kill one or two guys if you jump us when we are in a group? No, it doesn't and hopefully groups don't think it does.

Though I might agree with some of your points about zerging, all the inaccurate noise you mixed in the other night keeps it from being taken seriously IMO. And remember, in the end, the game is about groups fighting groups in an alliance war, not dueling. Not that very small man fights cannot take place, but you aren't meant to solo take keeps and solo run scrolls and solo wipe groups.

Very good points man, really getting tired of people complaining about groups and automatically equating group with zerg. This is an RvR game which will always be centered around group gameplay.

On a side note, our 24 man blue group has wiped you

You and haxus are about the only groups that can run 24 or smaller size and we know we actually have a fight on our hands. Unfortunately, both you guys seem to be able to fill out a full 24 man group more often than us and if we hit you with like 16 or less, we know it's not gonna go well most of the time. Doesn't mean we won't do it anyway

As soon as a grp is only flilling slots with redundant positions you´re zerging as individual players are no longer a key component but only part of a key component of the grp (edit: i´m sure someone is going to tell me every player up to 24 is a key grp member bc you know - aoe caps

)

I´ve played enough RvR games that did not cater to people with blob mentality in the way eso and guildwars2 did to know that strategy/objectives and large scale pvp has nothing to do with the reason why people stack up on crown with 20+ players.

Edit: I don´t have a problem with this playstyle. Just that the gamemechanics basically enforce it or you´re putting yourself at a disadvantage - this part i don´t like.

Joy_Division · October 2015

BossTuggles wrote: »

So you are taking personal offense from me criticizing a playstyle in the game that the vast majority of people in this game throughout its existince do not like? I think I am being civil with this too. I am speaking from experience that playing as healer in those ball groups is a VERY dumbed down version of a healer in this game. Not saying those players are bad just what they are asked/forced/ whatever to do is in no way (i guess this is where opinions come into play) as fun as doing more than just what you purport to do while in those groups. Mano when you arent with those groups of yours and just with a couple buddies dont you feel like you are accomplishing more? Do you not feel more vital? from a personal perspective.

And one Negate near them Palisades that group was toasted with a couple ults. You are under appreciating the amount of damage those synergies did.

Anyway just wanted to throw my 2 cents in back to eating my Greek Yogurt and getting Diabeetus.

You are trying to be civil, but you are doing more than insulting a playstyle. You are saying there is no responsibility or accountability, healers do nothing but mash the 3 button, and that all "ball groups" are just mindless robots whose required skill level is disgustingly low.

What you are not acknowledging is that are raids that are very good at what they do and then there are those that are not. There is a qualitative difference between them precisely because it does take skill to organize, lead, and operate them effectively. There are guilds that get wiped more often than do the wiping; the latter are those that do things like have their healers spamming two buttons. I would leave such a guild if that is all they expected of me as a healer.

Whether you run in a large raid or small group, there are very real tactical decisions that have to be made. Just because I am in a raid of 24, that does not mean when we are in a fight against 3 times our number that I am somehow not expected to take individual accountability, think for myself, and react correctly and skillfully during the course of the fight; I have to make many of the same decisions that you do if you are in a group of 4 trying to take on 12. You said that you heal for small groups, should I assume that the other members of your group are skillless casuals that have to be carried by your heals and are incapable of surviving on their own? No? Why assume that about me? The difference between the guilds who do the wiping and the guilds that get wiped is precisely the level of skill, adaptability, and individual accountability there you claim does not exist. I have run with good raids and leaders who know what they are doing and I have run with the sorts of raids you are referring to that demand its players run a template build. The difference is night and day.

All that being said, I do think Fengrush is correct that AoE caps should be removed and large organized raids are the primary beneficiaries of them. Removing the AoE cap levels the playing field and is yet another thing that would further separate the better guilds from the poorer ones that lead people like you to believe our accomplishments are based on crutches and a disgustingly low skill level.

Derra · October 2015

Manoekin wrote: »

I respect you man, and I agree with almost all of the things you want changed. I just think this whole thing is stupid. We can't judge a person's skill based off of their play style and I know that first hand. We need to just drop it and recognize people who perform well regardless of group size. We just need the game to be a fair playing field. Fighting among each other over dumb things like this is insane because we're not even fighting over the real issue. -_-

The main issue the few smallgrp players left have might be: In a ballgrp you can´t tell if someone is skilled or not in 90% of the situations (especially if you´re fighting them outnumbered). There is no denying there are some skilled people playing in ballgrps because they enjoy playing with a large grp. I have no problem with that.
But then you have the large part of around average players running in ballgrps. They sit near the top of the foodchain (at the top apart from the two or three really well organised raidgrps) without having to improve ever. Ofcourse you vaporize them with your top notch 24 slot without maybe even recognizing them as a grp - but they´re a nearly unstoppable force when you´re fighting with small numbers. I can´t count the situations where we´ve been fighting with 3 or 4 vs 16+ and the only saving grace for enemies only pressing 1 the whole fight were aoecaps (and static ulti gain). They´re overperforming because of how easy it is to perform ok in a ballgrp.

Edit: It´s not about destroying a playstyle you guys enjoy. It´s only about getting a fair chance when encountering 24 morons copying the well organised raids. Current mechanics don´t allow that.

FENGRUSH · October 2015

I agree with not doing the old ult gen formula - this would require more time and thought. I dont agree with lumping multiple big changes together either, but doing them one at a time. ZOS generally just makes huge changes every new DLC/patch and we end up relearning a new game but the meta of ball groups has always been core due to AOE caps.

I think a lot of people agree with what Im saying, even from ball groups, but take offense when I use the word 'ball group' since it lumps them into a category of what it really is. Its been said enough that its not personally diminishing any of these players personal talent levels in the group. But if people want to ignore that it makes no difference to me. I get that theyre offended and want to come here and lay into me and thats fine - but what Ive said isnt untrue.

Dont lump me in a zerg because I was engaging your group. I actually spent the first 5-10 minutes on the sideline watching it. After that we started picking people off, and frankly, Essa and I were alone in that respect to actually killing people. You were fighting 60 people or whatever, thats fine. You werent however fighting a 60man ball group, because you wouldnt be able to with AOE caps. You would lose pretty badly if 60 people grouped up in the same way. It isnt a matter of strategy, its simply a matter of coordination.

Moving from point A to point B and back to point A isnt something Id consider a strategy either. Everyone who knows whats going on in Cyro can tell what youre going to do long before you do it, but as a smaller group we really dont have an option to counter it. If strategy had any place here, wed have access to some techniques to counter it. The counter is bringing more people and forming a similar group.

Will it make your group stronger against 60 people? Yes it will, and that is a good thing. It will bring less stress to the server. Ball groups do stress the server with the purging and healing that goes on inside them though. This was apparent when ball groups first rolled out that servers started to eat it bad on lag. Before that, not nearly as bad. It really comes down to the overabundant healing/defensive posturing of these ball groups.

Do I expect to walk up with 4 people and knock your ball group down every time? No. In fact the chances of doing that to any decent group is highly unlikely post AOE cap removal. But you guys like to take my words and misconstrue them. The reality is we cant do anything. There isnt a place for the small man group in this battle. This is the problem.

I love folks from K-hole and would love to fight with them on the battlefield. They run a medium sized raid most the time, and I like running a small group. If we fought today and they were 12 and I had a group of 4 vs an enemy of 24 synced in a ball, wed be stupid to fight separate. If AOE caps were removed, they could fight in one manner while the 4 could flank to much greater effect. This doesnt exist today. This did exist moreso in release. This actually has a level of strategy that doesnt revolve around numbers and AOE caps at its core. This is what I want back.

Fair and balanced gameplay - a place for more than ball groups. If they want to fix performance, they have to address ball groups, not 24 man raids. There is a clear difference. If you dont think balling up in 24man groups impacts performance vs 24 people fighting together, you are absolutely and 100% in denial. The reality is many have played like this for so long they dont even know the difference. They would wonder how or why a 24 man group would not fight in a ball. This is truly a sad thing.

RIP: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

FENGRUSH · October 2015

Huckdabuck wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think Tuggles summed it up pretty well. People are still taking it personally that these ball groups take a lot of skill. Keep at it though, no one is buying into it. Tsym literally recruited nobodies and trained them to follow crown and pound heals. It worked. VE and Alacrity have better players than they did with better equipment and much more capable solo.

Alacrity has always done well, even since release. Theyve always been a good guild, and I can have a conversation like I did with manoekin last night even if it ends with me not being able to agree or have a discussion after him telling me hes having fun running around in that ball group.

The real issue is there is no small group play because of AOE caps. Everything more or less is a ball group on PC environment now. Youre either in one or youre getting overrun by one or lagging out by one while fighting somewhere else in the map. This design is garbage. Everyone can adapt, so lets adapt to a more balanced setup where ball groups arent being protected by AOE caps, throw on dynamic ult gen with a better formula, rework skills like purge, rapids and barrier. All of these things add to making ball groups ridiculously strong and doing so at an unfair advantage that takes away talent and focuses on numbers brought to the fight more than anything else.

Sorry if you took offense Alacrity, and I know theres people that watch the stream. It doesnt really change things. Id be happy to have a discussion on TS on the stream with some people about it though. Ive seen some haxus members agree with me, alacrity as well. VE members pretty much show up in every thread about AOE caps talking about how we shouldnt change things though and taking everything way too personally so not sure who to bring from their department.

Even if you dont like our playstyle it doesnt make everyone in a group unskilled players. In VE we have verrying opinions on AOE caps so you cant say that because a couple people post their opinion about AOE caps doesnt make it everyones opinion. I think we can all agree that there needs to be viable options for small groups but this games pvp is all about cyrodiil keep takes/defenses and group gameplay.

Read and comprehend this bolded statement @FENGRUSH . We are a guild but we are also individuals that think for ourselves when not balled up on crown and mindlessly pushing 2 buttons . From what I've seen on the forums over the past week or so we have the following VE members:

@Joy_Division and @Takllin in the get rid of caps camp. So here's SOME VE members who agree with you!

@Zheg in the Devil's advocate camp. He's one VE member who is trying to make sure you guys are actually thinking about anything that could possibly get flubbed in the process.

@Satiar and myself in the don't care about the caps either way but would rather see dynamic ultimate back instead.

@hammayolettuce who posted above this and I am 100% in agreement with her statement. If you got both dynamic ult with the removal of AoE then we'd be seeing something along the lines of launch vampire DK's/Sorcs that could 1vTHEWORLD. And I'm sorry but there are only a select few who would want to ever see that again.

So either I missed a ton of post by VE folks who are Vehemently opposed to the removal of AoE caps or you are just mistaken by who is in VE and who is not. And if you're really looking to speak with someone in VE......try Bulby or @Satiar .

Thats good to hear - duly noted. Im taking flak from many threads in many areas and its tough to keep up with. I just see VE people really offended and I get it - but its not my intent. Ill not lump it altogether in the future, and I wasnt even trying to, I only saw the 2 VE names in different threads shooting at everything I posted and its really tough to keep up with fighting all of this stuff. I dont want to sling *** around, I want to promote change. It has to happen or the game will dip furthermore into the crapper in the coming months - guaranteed.

Manoekin wrote: »

BossTuggles wrote: »

So you are taking personal offense from me criticizing a playstyle in the game that the vast majority of people in this game throughout its existince do not like? I think I am being civil with this too. I am speaking from experience that playing as healer in those ball groups is a VERY dumbed down version of a healer in this game. Not saying those players are bad just what they are asked/forced/ whatever to do is in no way (i guess this is where opinions come into play) as fun as doing more than just what you purport to do while in those groups. Mano when you arent with those groups of yours and just with a couple buddies dont you feel like you are accomplishing more? Do you not feel more vital? from a personal perspective.

And one Negate near them Palisades that group was toasted with a couple ults. You are under appreciating the amount of damage those synergies did.

Anyway just wanted to throw my 2 cents in back to eating my Greek Yogurt and getting Diabeetus.

When I'm with a small group I still have fun, but I know I'm not making much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. Sure I feel important to the group, but I feel just as important in a raid group. I feel even more pressure in a larger raid because I want to keep everyone alive even though I know it's not really possible by myself, but I want to try my best. IMO my responsibility is the same regardless of group size, so yeah.

Also, one negate wouldn't mean anything as far as disrupting us because if this was release we'd all have immovable up 100%. Negate was used for resource regen back then. We would then get out of the ulti's and wipe the small group.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I think Tuggles summed it up pretty well. People are still taking it personally that these ball groups take a lot of skill. Keep at it though, no one is buying into it. Tsym literally recruited nobodies and trained them to follow crown and pound heals. It worked. VE and Alacrity have better players than they did with better equipment and much more capable solo.

Alacrity has always done well, even since release. Theyve always been a good guild, and I can have a conversation like I did with manoekin last night even if it ends with me not being able to agree or have a discussion after him telling me hes having fun running around in that ball group.

The real issue is there is no small group play because of AOE caps. Everything more or less is a ball group on PC environment now. Youre either in one or youre getting overrun by one or lagging out by one while fighting somewhere else in the map. This design is garbage. Everyone can adapt, so lets adapt to a more balanced setup where ball groups arent being protected by AOE caps, throw on dynamic ult gen with a better formula, rework skills like purge, rapids and barrier. All of these things add to making ball groups ridiculously strong and doing so at an unfair advantage that takes away talent and focuses on numbers brought to the fight more than anything else.

Sorry if you took offense Alacrity, and I know theres people that watch the stream. It doesnt really change things. Id be happy to have a discussion on TS on the stream with some people about it though. Ive seen some haxus members agree with me, alacrity as well. VE members pretty much show up in every thread about AOE caps talking about how we shouldnt change things though and taking everything way too personally so not sure who to bring from their department.

As said, I'm the only member of Alacrity still playing ESO (some other still play but aren't currently in the guild). Using us as an example is good though, because we can go back to TSYM truly starting the ball group trend and Alacrity absolutely embarrassing them. We didn't run as tight as they did, but by today's definition people would call us a ball group too except we were actual good players. Training people to run in a tight ball is nice and everything, but it shouldn't be your basis for all guilds that run large groups.

I respect you man, and I agree with almost all of the things you want changed. I just think this whole thing is stupid. We can't judge a person's skill based off of their play style and I know that first hand. We need to just drop it and recognize people who perform well regardless of group size. We just need the game to be a fair playing field. Fighting among each other over dumb things like this is insane because we're not even fighting over the real issue. -_-

Alacrity would definitely crush tsym back in the days, but I guess my point was that was with hardcap of AOE @ 6 players, and they knew this. They also talked about their 'next level strategies' and pretty much they didnt even exist before AOE cap changes, nor would their style or gameplay work at all during release.

Alacrity was really good, and fought together as well, just not as tight as you said. They were basically a lot of good players that could stretch out in the battle to do their job and come back to/through their group and rotate together very well. That PvP was awesome - that PvP showed true talent of players and group play. You remember it, so do I. Players had to be good, or they wouldnt keep up. There are people that werent as good as those members then that are flying high in ball groups today though, you can bet on that. They wouldnt be able to hang in those days. And for me, that is really unfortunate because the came has continually steered away from that and pushed players away from the game that were very skilled and created interesting and challenging battles every single day.

Ill reiterate that Im not saying on my streams 'look at all of these unskilled nobodies in this ball group winning fights'. Because that doesnt happen. I will remark how oversimplified and dumbed down the gameplay is. I dont see how it can be disputed. As mentioned above, we used to have really different battles back in the day, and it wasnt like the crap you see now. They would be fights that would skew all over large parts of the field and players were coming together at times, and spreading through enemy lines at other times. And there were not ball groups, because you would be a target if you did that.

AOE caps first - then revisit dynamic ult gen. But honestly, if we leave this just to ZOS to do alone, I dont think it can be done right. I really wish theyd bring in folks from ESO, and I dont mean just the streamers that brought this up on that podcast, but other leaders too that can discuss it from all sides. Id like to get leadership voices together and talk about it, if not on that podcast, Id love to put it together myself. Because something needs to change in Cyrodiil. I think its in one of its worse states right now. Population is all returning to Cyro, and its completely dreadful gameplay. My interests are pushing completely between sewers/dueling - and I LOVE SIEGE BATTLES. I just find nothing interesting about the ones taking place right now. Its just a soul crushing experience, in or out of a ball group for me.

Asmael · October 2015

On this matter...

When's the next podcast?

Ishammael · October 2015

FENGRUSH wrote: »

AOE caps first - then revisit dynamic ult gen. But honestly, if we leave this just to ZOS to do alone, I dont think it can be done right. I really wish theyd bring in folks from ESO, and I dont mean just the streamers that brought this up on that podcast, but other leaders too that can discuss it from all sides. Id like to get leadership voices together and talk about it, if not on that podcast, Id love to put it together myself. Because something needs to change in Cyrodiil. I think its in one of its worse states right now. Population is all returning to Cyro, and its completely dreadful gameplay. My interests are pushing completely between sewers/dueling - and I LOVE SIEGE BATTLES. I just find nothing interesting about the ones taking place right now. Its just a soul crushing experience, in or out of a ball group for me.

Completely agree here.

Total removal of AoE caps should be first -- but it needs to be done along with a careful balance consideration. I would like both to happen, but we need more data on AoE cap removal.

Cyrodiil is in its absolute worst state right now since maybe 0-cost bats. Populations are totally skewed, rampant imbalance, poor mechanics.

Lava_Croft · October 2015

This whole idea that running in a 24-man group is somehow 'less skilled' than running in a 4-man group while ESO is designed and marketed as a large scale PvP game makes me wonder if these people are the same people that say I should play Quake using only my Axe, since Rocket Launchers are for people without skill.

Idiots.

Etaniel · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

This whole idea that running in a 24-man group is somehow 'less skilled' than running in a 4-man group while ESO is designed and marketed as a large scale PvP game makes me wonder if these people are the same people that say I should play Quake using only my Axe, since Rocket Launchers are for people without skill.

Idiots.

Let's say someone designs a rocket launcher to kill a pack of squirrels.
Let's say that same person designs a pellet launcher to kill individual squirrels.

Killing a pack of squirrels using the pellet launcher takes undeniably more skill than to kill a single squirrel with the rocket launcher.

Ball is in your court Kris

Etaniel · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

This whole idea that running in a 24-man group is somehow 'less skilled' than running in a 4-man group while ESO is designed and marketed as a large scale PvP game makes me wonder if these people are the same people that say I should play Quake using only my Axe, since Rocket Launchers are for people without skill.

Idiots.

Seriously though your comment is ***

Lava_Croft · October 2015

Etaniel wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

This whole idea that running in a 24-man group is somehow 'less skilled' than running in a 4-man group while ESO is designed and marketed as a large scale PvP game makes me wonder if these people are the same people that say I should play Quake using only my Axe, since Rocket Launchers are for people without skill.

Idiots.

Let's say someone designs a rocket launcher to kill a pack of squirrels.
Let's say that same person designs a pellet launcher to kill individual squirrels.

Killing a pack of squirrels using the pellet launcher takes undeniably more skill than to kill a single squirrel with the rocket launcher.

Ball is in your court Kris

So because you choose to run around with a much less effective weapon than available, that automagically makes you 'more skilled' and automagically gives you the position to constantly belittle people who do use the more effective weapon?

Guess it's time to run around Cyrodiil unarmored and fist fight my way to victory while constantly proclaiming that the rest are just lesser skilled players.

Derra · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

This whole idea that running in a 24-man group is somehow 'less skilled' than running in a 4-man group while ESO is designed and marketed as a large scale PvP game makes me wonder if these people are the same people that say I should play Quake using only my Axe, since Rocket Launchers are for people without skill.

Idiots.

It has the same skill/noskill involved. Only thing is mechanics favoring the big grp by a large margin. Also what has large scale pvp to do with grpsize?

Also you can run effective build for big grps consisting of 2 to 4 active skills used over a whole fight. This won´t work in small grps. You can make of that what you want.

Derra · October 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

This whole idea that running in a 24-man group is somehow 'less skilled' than running in a 4-man group while ESO is designed and marketed as a large scale PvP game makes me wonder if these people are the same people that say I should play Quake using only my Axe, since Rocket Launchers are for people without skill.

Idiots.

Let's say someone designs a rocket launcher to kill a pack of squirrels.
Let's say that same person designs a pellet launcher to kill individual squirrels.

Killing a pack of squirrels using the pellet launcher takes undeniably more skill than to kill a single squirrel with the rocket launcher.

Ball is in your court Kris

So because you choose to run around with a much less effective weapon than available, that automagically makes you 'more skilled' and automagically gives you the position to constantly belittle people who do use the more effective weapon?

Guess it's time to run around Cyrodiil unarmored and fist fight my way to victory while constantly proclaiming that the rest are just lesser skilled players.

This is so wrong.

Everybody is running around with the same weapons. Yet if the smallgrp throws their handgranades against a biggrp half of them turn into foul eggs midair while the granades thrown by the biggrps stay the same.

You can´t be deluded to a level where you think magic aoe protection by hugging nuts with your grpmates is a good mechanic?

Lava_Croft · October 2015

Derra wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

This whole idea that running in a 24-man group is somehow 'less skilled' than running in a 4-man group while ESO is designed and marketed as a large scale PvP game makes me wonder if these people are the same people that say I should play Quake using only my Axe, since Rocket Launchers are for people without skill.

Idiots.

Let's say someone designs a rocket launcher to kill a pack of squirrels.
Let's say that same person designs a pellet launcher to kill individual squirrels.

Killing a pack of squirrels using the pellet launcher takes undeniably more skill than to kill a single squirrel with the rocket launcher.

Ball is in your court Kris

So because you choose to run around with a much less effective weapon than available, that automagically makes you 'more skilled' and automagically gives you the position to constantly belittle people who do use the more effective weapon?

Guess it's time to run around Cyrodiil unarmored and fist fight my way to victory while constantly proclaiming that the rest are just lesser skilled players.

This is so wrong.

Everybody is running around with the same weapons. Yet if the smallgrp throws their handgranades against a biggrp half of them turn into foul eggs midair while the granades thrown by the biggrps stay the same.

ESO in it's current state means that the most effective way of playing PvP is to run around in a large group (The Rocket Launcher). While it's fine and part of the glorious Elder Scrolls Freedom that you can choose to run around in a group that is (by design) less effective than a 24-man group (The Axe), this choice is yours and the reason it's sub-optimal is not the people running around in large groups that constantly get whined at for running around in large groups.

Instead of constantly telling people who run in large groups that they lack skill, cause lag and what not, try telling ZOS to fix their product.

[EDIT] Helpful hints added.