Why Stamina sorcs need at least one class DD ability and why NB is perfect

Alucardo · October 2015

So, after seeing all the great changes ZOS have done to stam sorcs with the amazing passives they now get (I'm not being sarcastic either, the stam passives are brilliant), I decided to roll a new stam sorc (2h).
The results were less than amazing. I had to rely on heavy attacks and crit rush when I got it as my source of damage. Considering my DPS was at an all time low and lightning form didn't help jack, my life was constantly on the line and grinding was a major hassle.
I got to level 9 and said screw this, rolled another Nightblade and started 3 hitting enemies, cloaking when I needed to, their gap closer actually goes through those annoying rocks that stop crit rush from moving.. it was just such a more pleasant experience. Like, I had fun grinding.
Seriously, take a look at the low level skills you get as a Nightblade.. you get a spell that deals damage and replenishes health, a nice DD ability that actually stuns when you're in stealth, invisibility, nice gap closer with decent damage, a nice execute.. better yet, all the abilities I mostly used morphed into stamina. Why would I want to play anything else other than Nightblade?
I'm not joking, but this is how every other class should have been designed.

- Great abilities from the get go to make grinding enjoyable. These abilities are still useful at end game.
- Nice gap closer
- A "holy crap I'm under a lot of heavy fire" button (cloak, but obviously an alternative for other classes)
- A DD skill that has multiple uses like veiled strike
- A small way of getting health back (Strife)
- All the DD should have a Stamina morph (just like veiled strike and teleport strike)
- A decent cheap ultimate (Death stroke for a mere 50 ultimate. I still use this every day on my higher level NB, it's just so good)

So personally, I find the Nightblade was the most well thought out class of them all. It's almost perfection. You don't need workarounds (ie: I'll use this until I get this ability), because everything is find and dandy from the very start.
And people wonder why we have so many Nightblades. It has nothing to do with them being FOTM, or it might be for some, but for people like me I like them because they are fun to play, have a great balance between magicka and stamina, and they are easy when you want/need to roll a new character.

Sorry, I know I kind of went off track about stam sorcs and into detail about how Nightblade as a class is perfection, but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from. Playing stam sorc feels like I'm doing something really unnatural, whereas you choose magicka or stamina Nightblade, it's going to work great either way from the start.

What are your thoughts?

Malmai · October 2015

Nope.

Warraxx · October 2015

all u need is WB...

Alucardo · October 2015

Malmai wrote: »

Nope.

After the time I spent putting my thoughts down in the form of a thread I would have expected some better feedback. Is that a "Nope they don't need a DD ability", or what? I have no problem with disagreements, but please explain why

Alucardo · October 2015

Warraxx wrote: »

all u need is WB...

sigh

nordickittyhawk · October 2015

sorcs have stupid high weapon dmg if you had DD stam skill it would be broken and Zos would take atleast 30% of your weapon dmg...

Sausage · October 2015

Cant you guys just wait for Spell Crafting, it most likely will change many things. Ive thought it little bit, I think its cool if every class gets heals, shields, speeds, etc.

Emma_Overload · October 2015

OP has a point, but he really should have leveled his Stam Sorc up to VR16 so he can see the other 20 things wrong with them, LOL.

Alucardo · October 2015

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

sorcs have stupid high weapon dmg if you had DD stam skill it would be broken and Zos would take atleast 30% of your weapon dmg...

Hmm yeah, I think it's the expert mage passive that now gives them a bonus to weapon damage? They might need to downplay that if sorcs were given a DD ability, true.

Alucardo · October 2015

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

OP has a point, but he really should have leveled his Stam Sorc up to VR16 so he can see the other 20 things wrong with them, LOL.

Heh yeah, I got to VR4 and just couldn't go any further unfortunately. I was running around as a ball of electricity wrecking blow the crap out of everything. I hated what I had become

nordickittyhawk · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

sorcs have stupid high weapon dmg if you had DD stam skill it would be broken and Zos would take atleast 30% of your weapon dmg...

Hmm yeah, I think it's the expert mage passive that now gives them a bonus to weapon damage? They might need to downplay that if sorcs were given a DD ability, true.

There buffs are pretty instant cast too. Sorcs are the hard hitting class while Nbs its a bit situational.

Death stroke is a really cheap ulti as well but its only 6 seconds long

i mean there is alot they can add to nightblades in PvE but PvP there pretty much fine as they are the vanishing get in and then get out class.

Just remeber there trying to keep classes seprate as possible

.

Tryxus · October 2015

I played a Sorc in the past (Magicka tho) and I realized that in both PvE and PvP, the only actual Class skill I used to do direct damage with was Crystal Frag (and even then only when procced)

In the end, both Stam and Mag Sorcs seem to rely on their weapon skills in order to do damage to their enemies while their class skills are only used for support (Mines, Bound Armor/Lightning Form buffs, Hardened Ward, Lightning Splash, pets,...)

I can guess Stam Sorcs don't have it easy: Mag Sorcs still have Crystal Frag, Velo Curse and Hardened Ward while Stam Sorcs have even less class-wise.

Alucardo · October 2015

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Death stroke is a really cheap ulti as well but its only 6 seconds long i mean there is alot they can add to nightblades in PvE but PvP there pretty much fine as they are the vanishing get in and then get out class.

There's also a lot a Nightblade can do in a 6 second burst

And with 50 ultimate they can keep it up almost constantly.

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Just remeber there trying to keep classes seprate as possible .

Definitely, and I think this is important. I guess my main assessment was just that Nightblade is designed a lot better than any other class, and when I roll a new character why I would choose them pretty much every time.

Alucardo · October 2015

Tryxus wrote: »

I can guess Stam Sorcs don't have it easy: Mag Sorcs still have Crystal Frag, Velo Curse and Hardened Ward while Stam Sorcs have even less class-wise.

Yeah, I didn't like the reliance on weapon trees so early on in the game as a stam sorc, because my class ones levelled faster, but there was nothing I could really use.
As a mag sorc it's not so bad. You can stay at range spamming heavy attacks, destructive reach to push them back, fury, frags, but as a stam you're up in their face swinging heavy attacks early on in the game.. not brilliant.

danew6 · October 2015

What is WB?

nordickittyhawk · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Death stroke is a really cheap ulti as well but its only 6 seconds long i mean there is alot they can add to nightblades in PvE but PvP there pretty much fine as they are the vanishing get in and then get out class.

There's also a lot a Nightblade can do in a 6 second burst And with 50 ultimate they can keep it up almost constantly.

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

Just remeber there trying to keep classes seprate as possible .

Definitely, and I think this is important. I guess my main assessment was just that Nightblade is designed a lot better than any other class, and when I roll a new character why I would choose them pretty much every time.

I get nightblades are apprantly the best right now but sorcs n nightblades are little on par depends on builds you know rock paper etc. But saying that nightblades was the best designed for first 3 months game no wanted a nb in there team i mean it was magic or nothing then they nerfed us more n more n more. then 1.6 came out n we finally got what we wanted but 1.7 didnt really affect us as much. due to we dont use shields, we dont use heals and our actually 100% to 0% insta kills are gone (granted some can still do it but zenimax looks over that *** like alot of other things) so i wouldnt say we are best class... we are just only class that stays true to it self... "The Assasin" in and out, "The siphon/blood mage" healing/dps, "The trickster" i could go on but you get my point. While zos screwed over The Dk as there no longer the power house or the turtle, templars as the paladin ETC ETC. sorcs are just well... your either stamina sorc or your a shield stacker nothing to it .... So yeah we are the best but we dont need a nerf everyone else needs a buff or more options... If it aint broke dont fix it

nordickittyhawk · October 2015

danew6 wrote: »

What is WB?

Wrecking blow 2 handed morph

Shunravi · October 2015

Yea. I think you are rather spot on there. Honestly, if cloak was a damage shield instead, it would just be awesome to me... I could do without invisibility and the stigmas that come with it.

Spamable melee and ranged abilities. Summons that arent tied to their own lousy tree, and can still be effective for what you need them to do. It doesnt need "dark" in a description to try to convince you that conjuring crystals is dark magic, everythig is shadows and blood. It just feels like more of a caster or a melee fighter right off the bat. To me at least.

For what everyone sees as the "caster class" honestly i was rather dissappointed with the options in the sorc lines. I mean, what, furry and weapons skills for casting? Throw a curse in there and maybe some frags when they proc? At least theres lightning flood...

Alucardo · October 2015

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

So yeah we are the best but we dont need a nerf everyone else needs a buff or more options... If it aint broke dont fix it

Oh, I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way. I'm definitely not calling out for nerfs. Nightblade is perfect the way it is and I wouldn't change a thing. All I'm saying is every class should have been designed this way from the beginning, with a great balance between stamina and magicka and useful class abilities to get you started.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

OP has a point, but he really should have leveled his Stam Sorc up to VR16 so he can see the other 20 things wrong with them, LOL.

Heh yeah, I got to VR4 and just couldn't go any further unfortunately. I was running around as a ball of electricity wrecking blow the crap out of everything. I hated what I had become

Wow that sounds like Templar. Ball of light that runs around biting jabs everything...

In all seriousness, I think a morph of Mages Fury should be a melee range 'Lightning Haymaker'. It would look really good I think, but yeah no one can get higher Stam damage bonuses than a sorc now, which kills yet another area Templar had an advantage. I'm still not entirely sure how i feel about that change, but I do think it would be nice to give the Storc a stamina morph of this ability. I think crystal shards should remain as it is. Bear in mind, if they do this I really think they need to do some heavy duty rethinking of DK & Templar right now (Which is already true). I've made my thoughts clear on this in other posts, as I'm sure you're aware Alucardo. DK Could probably stand to get at least one good burst-fire damage ability. Templar could use an eclipse that actually works, and isn't just a trick used in very specific 1v1 pvp cases (which isn't even relevant in the game apart from just having a little fun and honing skills). Templar could use a higher duration Shield, Rune focus that carries longer, blinding flashes, something. Basically, I'm of the opinion all classes should be as good as Nightblade and Sorc right now, I don't want to see them tear these two down, but just build up the other two to catch up.

Alucardo · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Basically, I'm of the opinion all classes should be as good as Nightblade and Sorc right now, I don't want to see them tear these two down, but just build up the other two to catch up.

Hidden in my big blob of text in the OP was this. No nerfs, just alterations to lacking classes to try and get everyone on equal footing, whether you're a stam or magicka build.

Shunravi · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Basically, I'm of the opinion all classes should be as good as Nightblade and Sorc right now, I don't want to see them tear these two down, but just build up the other two to catch up.

Hidden in my big blob of text in the OP was this. No nerfs, just alterations to lacking classes to try and get everyone on equal footing, whether you're a stam or magicka build.

Yea, buffs and tweaks, no nerfs.

I like the 'lightning haymaker' above, and i could see a 'crystal fist' or 'crystal blow' as a shards morph. Does anyone use the aoe one? Immagne as you swing your hands, a column of crystal appears and you smash an enemy with it.

nordickittyhawk · October 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

nordickittyhawk wrote: »

So yeah we are the best but we dont need a nerf everyone else needs a buff or more options... If it aint broke dont fix it

Oh, I hope you didn't take my post the wrong way. I'm definitely not calling out for nerfs. Nightblade is perfect the way it is and I wouldn't change a thing. All I'm saying is every class should have been designed this way from the beginning, with a great balance between stamina and magicka and useful class abilities to get you started.

Your cool man

it was more of just in case situation ^-^ your all good man. Hopefully others will see it like u

SturgeHammer · October 2015

I wouldn't be opposed to a direct damage Stam ability for sorcs, but I don't want surprise attack 2.0, in fact I would prefer not to overlap with NB in any way.

So far ZOS has dropped the ball on Stam oriented activated skills (I don't include toggles) for Sorc. I would like to see them take a morph, like the other morph of crystal frags, and make something similar, but a bit more novel than just changing the cost and tweaking some numbers/durations. Also, I would be open to the possibility an ability that costs magicka with a magic damage competent that scales off spell power and a physical damage component that scales off of weapon damage.

Maybe something like this, still has some sorc class favor and would be fine for Stam sorcs:

Crystal Slam
Costs magicka (or magicka and stamina)
Melee Range
1 second cast time

Encase your weapon with dark crystals and release a power attack dealing X magic damage and Y physical damage, knocking them down for 2 seconds.

Casting other spells or weapon feats has a 35% chance of causing your next Crystal Slam to be instant, doing 20% more damage, and costing 50% less.

EDIT: Both X and Y should be scaled in such a way that together on either a magicka or Stamina build it would hit about as wrecking blow.

Alucardo · October 2015

SturgeHammer wrote: »

I wouldn't be opposed to a direct damage Stam ability for sorcs, but I don't want surprise attack 2.0, in fact I would prefer not to overlap with NB in any way.

Nah definitely not. I was thinking more along the lines of something similar to a DK whip, but lightning whip. It off balances you on the first hit, then turns into a Charged whip if they are off balanced dealing a little more damage and healing you a bit. There's a 5 sec cool down with the charged whip extra damage and heal (similar to flame lash).
You now have a DD ability with a small utility, and it looks awesome.

nilldax · October 2015

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Wow that sounds like Templar. Ball of light that runs around biting jabs everything...

In all seriousness, I think a morph of Mages Fury should be a melee range 'Lightning Haymaker'. It would look really good I think, but yeah no one can get higher Stam damage bonuses than a sorc now, which kills yet another area Templar had an advantage. I'm still not entirely sure how i feel about that change, but I do think it would be nice to give the Storc a stamina morph of this ability. I think crystal shards should remain as it is. Bear in mind, if they do this I really think they need to do some heavy duty rethinking of DK & Templar right now (Which is already true). I've made my thoughts clear on this in other posts, as I'm sure you're aware Alucardo. DK Could probably stand to get at least one good burst-fire damage ability. Templar could use an eclipse that actually works, and isn't just a trick used in very specific 1v1 pvp cases (which isn't even relevant in the game apart from just having a little fun and honing skills). Templar could use a higher duration Shield, Rune focus that carries longer, blinding flashes, something. Basically, I'm of the opinion all classes should be as good as Nightblade and Sorc right now, I don't want to see them tear these two down, but just build up the other two to catch up.

Changing any of actual skills can be extreamly risky (look at case of Haste->Grim Focus). Shame is that game provides only few "base" setups to be viable with some varuations: NBs Cloak, Fear, Veiled Strike (morphs depends on spec) or Sorc Bolt Escape, Overload (3rd skillbar)... For me, new skill tree would for every class be nice additiion - while supporting idea of Spellcrafting will kill erase versality: tele-invi-semihealing-DK (no offense to any of those mighty guys). But yeah, Nightblades are easiest class, where i think he is hardest to master (excluding usage of Shield Breaker/Spin-To-Win in PvP).
Personaly, I played firstly as ST based sorc... was trying the most challenging archetype. Swapping early to Stamblade was propably best of my choices

sagitter · October 2015

I will not give sorc an ability like NB surprise attack, what s the point to have classes if you want all the same????
I' ll give sorc a stamina morph of crystal fragment so a kind of projectile but istant, I see the sorc like the master ranged class so should be the master Archer or something similar but it MUST and I repeat MUST be something unique and , don t just copy paste abilities from NB or others classes too. Another good thing would be pet damage scaled to the highest stat, stamina in this case, "hunter way". Let's balance but make classes unique!

Jitterbug · October 2015

Yes.

I couldn't agree more. The nightblade feels like a very well-rounded and "true" class from the very beginning to the very end. They really did great work there, making awesome tools available from the early game.
I think the same goes for magicka sorc and magicka templar. The "endgame build" is available pretty quickly, and it feels sorcy or temply right away. The DK (both stam and mag) takes a while to develop, and the stam sorc never really does.

Alucardo · October 2015

sagitter wrote: »

I will not give sorc an ability like NB surprise attack, what s the point to have classes if you want all the same????
I' ll give sorc a stamina morph of crystal fragment so a kind of projectile but istant, I see the sorc like the master ranged class so should be the master Archer or something similar but it MUST and I repeat MUST be something unique and , don t just copy paste abilities from NB or others classes too. Another good thing would be pet damage scaled to the highest stat, stamina in this case, "hunter way". Let's balance but make classes unique!

I'm not sure if you've read the entire thing (can't say I blame you, it's pretty long). I'm not asking for surprise attack on Sorc - that's unique to Nightblade. Just a DD ability with a small utility you can get early on, and it can be completely different from surprise attack.

Shunravi · October 2015

sagitter wrote: »

I will not give sorc an ability like NB surprise attack, what s the point to have classes if you want all the same????
I' ll give sorc a stamina morph of crystal fragment so a kind of projectile but istant, I see the sorc like the master ranged class so should be the master Archer or something similar but it MUST and I repeat MUST be something unique and , don t just copy paste abilities from NB or others classes too. Another good thing would be pet damage scaled to the highest stat, stamina in this case, "hunter way". Let's balance but make classes unique!

Aye... So no melee smash

but throwing crystals like baseballs would work.

And that brings up a good point, why don't summons scale with the highest? Missed oportunity there.

Jitterbug · October 2015

Oh, and also, why not just make stamina morphs of mages fury and crystal fragments and that lightning pool and velocious curse and just see what people come up with? What's the harm? And, while we're at it give those poor DKs a dang stam morph of Whip already. C'mon combat team, it's bordering cruel and unusual.