Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

I started off doing all of my crafting on my main, and boy did it ever make leveling a lot harder. I was constantly starved for skill points. Even now at VR12 (I know, he's not my highest level character, and he's not the character I play most often, but I still consider him to be my main) I find he's never got any spare skill points - and I never even got into alchemy with him, one of my other characters is my alchemist (and another one is my provisioner, but I've got maxed out provisioning on my main as well - he just doesn't know all of the recipes like my provisioner does).

Strange, my character is still VR13 have every craft maxed except for enchanting. I still have like 30 skillpoint left to distribute, and i'm only at my 3rd area of my cadwell gold progression.

I'm also only at my 3rd Cadwell's Gold zone on the character I'm talking about. Have you done much PVP or Craglorn? I've done little of the former, and none of the latter on this character, so if you got a bunch of skill points from there, that could be the difference. Also, I've now got multiple weapon skill lines maxed with all the passives and multiple skills, so I can swap between a DPS/offheal setup and a tank setup. That's relatively recent - there's no way I would have had enough skill points to do that at lower levels.

I have all my combat line maxed except the alliance war thingy, will do pvp only when i reach v16. I haven't done much pvp or craglorn.

Oh and I just specialize in one armor type. So only 1 armor line with passive skill point spent on them.
Do you get all the skyshard?

I get every skyshard - I do absolutely everything in each zone before moving on to the next. I've got all (or, for medium, almost all) passives for all 3 of the armour lines though, because I use all 3 in different combinations depending on which setup I'm using at the time. Also, it occurs to me that I haven't yet done a single vet dungeon on that character, so there's a bunch of skill points I haven't got yet for him.

I guess that's probably why... For me i just focus on being dps until i finish cadwell gold and reach v16.
From there i will start to think more about armor mixing.
Just curious do you know how many skillpoints you have right now? I have around 195++

*goes to check*
I've got 242 skillpoints, 1 of which is unspent. 104 of those skill points are in crafting passives - and I don't even have every passive in all of the crafting skills. If I had every crafting skill passive it would cost 139 skill points.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

#firstworldproblems

These are not the droids you're looking for, move along.

Whattt. You have 242 skill point but you still feel lacking? Something is wrong here...
I also do not put all point into all the passive, I don't put on those that highlight material nodes, and lately I dont think putting it on hireling is worth it.

Anyway it is probably because you leave too many options on what skill you use, lately I only put those that I use all the time.

For active skills I only put skill points in the ones I use in one of my 2 setups (those being DPS/Heals and Tank). For passives I put skill points in everything that's useful to me - that means all racials, all class passives, a lot of guild passives, all armour passives for the 2 armour skill lines I use, all weapon passives for the 3 weapon skill lines I use, and a few world skill passives. So that's 105 skill points needed in non-crafting passives (and even if I switched so that I only used one setup instead of 2, the number of necessary non-crafting passives would only drop down to 95), without even looking at the active skills.

Then I've got skill points in 18 active skills/ultimates, which isn't actually enough to have the flexibility you want in order to be able to swap out skills depending on the content you're going to be doing and what you need for it. So yeah, 242 skill points really isn't enough to max all of the crafting skills without significantly limiting your effectiveness.

To be honest, if you've only got 195ish skill points, I don't see how you can not feel severely limited if you're doing all of the crafting skills on that character. Even if you take out the "useless" crafting passives (keen eye, hirelings - which absolutely aren't useless but not necessary either, snakeblood, and either connoisseur or gourmand depending on whether you prefer food or drinks), you still need to spend 103 skill points for all of them - 88 if you take enchanting out of the equation. You should be using roughly the same number of non-crafting passives as me, but maybe a bit fewer if you only use 2 weapon skill lines and only 1 type of armour (and keep in mind that only using 1 type of armour is already significantly limiting your effectiveness), so let's say about 85 skill points for that. So just in passives you should have spent about 173 skill points, which only leaves you with 22 skill points to spend on active skills. Considering morphs, that's not even enough skill points to have 10 different active skills (5 on each bar), and 2 different ultimates - let alone enough skills to swap some out for different content. But you've also got about 30 skill points left to distribute?

Yeah, something doesn't add up... Either you haven't been actually maxing those 5 crafting skills, or you're severely limiting your effectiveness by not putting skill points into non-crafting passives.

This thread seems to have derailed.

I didn't intend to discuss skill points or options to make one or several crafters. What I want to discuss is how ZOS' recent decisions discourage playing alts.

In the case of the Mercenary motif, you need to get Undaunted keys for the chapters (or the whole book if you're lucky). And for the style material (laurel), you need to have learned AT LEAST ONE chapter, otherwise your chance to loot it will be ZERO. Considering that the motif only drops from a daily, even if you do both every day, how long do you think it will take for the average player to get ONE complete motif, let alone SEVERAL characters getting the same? And if only ONE of your characters has the motif, any alt you do a veteran dungeon with will be missing out on the loot with 100% chance.

I still haven't seen anything that tells me this is anything other than an idiotic design decision.

Ignoring all the pissing contests about how many skill points people should have, the real problem is this new style discourages players who want to craft in this style from doing dungeons on their characters who are not crafters (since you only get laurels if you have learned the chapters and most people will only want to learn all the chapters on one character not all of them).

There are suggestions on the PTS forum to get higher level friends to run low level scaled dungeons with your crafter so that can be worked around. But why should those of us with alts be made to feel as though we are wasting a dungeon run if we choose to do it on a different character than our main crafter?

daemonios wrote: »

This thread seems to have derailed.

I didn't intend to discuss skill points or options to make one or several crafters. What I want to discuss is how ZOS' recent decisions discourage playing alts.

In the case of the Mercenary motif, you need to get Undaunted keys for the chapters (or the whole book if you're lucky). And for the style material (laurel), you need to have learned AT LEAST ONE chapter, otherwise your chance to loot it will be ZERO. Considering that the motif only drops from a daily, even if you do both every day, how long do you think it will take for the average player to get ONE complete motif, let alone SEVERAL characters getting the same? And if only ONE of your characters has the motif, any alt you do a veteran dungeon with will be missing out on the loot with 100% chance.

I still haven't seen anything that tells me this is anything other than an idiotic design decision.

You have 2 weeks to start saving your keys so it shouldn't be an issue on any of your characters. I suggest you start running them all through both pledges on a daily basis like every other intelligent person will be doing and stocking up on keys.

Stop complaining if simple solutions are at your finger tips.

Marrtha wrote: »

The point is - if you want to gather those on your main, you can easily make your main a crafter. In three days max three crafts. No problem. ZOS has been messing many flows up recently, mostly for dedicated, charter-only characters, but I can kind of see why.

That works for people with only one main who they plan on running dungeons with. But not so much for people who like to play several characters and don't have one 'main'.

We were sold a play how you want mechanism that encouraged us to play multiple characters from the beginning.

But more and more things are being changed that indicate they really just want us to play one character exclusively now (see monster trophy drops and this).

If this is the intention it would be nice to have that stated outright.

Xeven wrote: »

I don't understand why anyone thinks having a separate alchemist, clothier, blacksmith, woodworker etc is a good idea. "A creator, an upgrader, and a breakdown guy" really? It makes absolutely no sense. Constantly switching characters and jacking with your bank. You're just making everything more tedious, and yeah, you have to deal with motifs too. I've capped every craft on my main character with basically every passive, skill and morph in the game unlocked. There are more than enough skill points. There is absolutely no good reason to do it any other way.

For flexibility. If you want all crafting, all your class lines, 2 weapon lines, 1 armour line and your racial line all maxed on one character, it will cost you 270 skill points.

That's a whole lot of skill points for crafting and now you are going to be very tight for points if you want anything from Alliance War, World lines, any other Armour line, Weapon line or Guild line.

The game seemed designed from the start to allow for crafting alts as a good way to not starve your main characters for skill points so they can try out new things (like stamina/magicka swapping), but now it seems to be doing a 180.

daemonios wrote: »

I've just read the patch notes for the 2.2.2 update on PTS and I must say I'm baffled at the choices made for the Mercenary crafting style.

So, you get the style chapters (uff, at least there's no fragments) from Undaunted chests. And the style stones from the last bosses in veteran dungeons. But ONLY if the character knows at least ONE of the chapters in the Mercenary style, and the chance increases to 100% for characters that have learned the whole style.

Now, I have 1 crafter who's maxed in all crafts and has all traits researched. But I have 3 other characters that I actively play, for a total of 3 VR16 and 1 VR1 character who all do veteran content. If I'm to get a chance at the style stone, I'll have to learn the style on ALL of these characters, otherwise I'll be locked out of a reward that I would otherwise get for completing a veteran dungeon.

In what twisted mind does this make any sense?? Seriously @ZOS_GinaBruno who comes up with these things? As if it wasn't bad enough that you decided to disable the banking of monster collectibles, when nobody asked for it and it doesn't provide any benefits, so that if you're still trying to get them all you'd be well advised to only play one character (more on that here)?

Please don't drink and code. Stop and think before you do these things. Or at least enlighten us on how this is supposed to improve the gameplay experience, because from where I'm standing, I simply cannot see it.

I'm getting tired of being manipulated.
I'm passed tired of paying a sub since release - to be manipulated.

UrQuan wrote: »

Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Dualrifle wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

I started off doing all of my crafting on my main, and boy did it ever make leveling a lot harder. I was constantly starved for skill points. Even now at VR12 (I know, he's not my highest level character, and he's not the character I play most often, but I still consider him to be my main) I find he's never got any spare skill points - and I never even got into alchemy with him, one of my other characters is my alchemist (and another one is my provisioner, but I've got maxed out provisioning on my main as well - he just doesn't know all of the recipes like my provisioner does).

Strange, my character is still VR13 have every craft maxed except for enchanting. I still have like 30 skillpoint left to distribute, and i'm only at my 3rd area of my cadwell gold progression.

I'm also only at my 3rd Cadwell's Gold zone on the character I'm talking about. Have you done much PVP or Craglorn? I've done little of the former, and none of the latter on this character, so if you got a bunch of skill points from there, that could be the difference. Also, I've now got multiple weapon skill lines maxed with all the passives and multiple skills, so I can swap between a DPS/offheal setup and a tank setup. That's relatively recent - there's no way I would have had enough skill points to do that at lower levels.

I have all my combat line maxed except the alliance war thingy, will do pvp only when i reach v16. I haven't done much pvp or craglorn.

Oh and I just specialize in one armor type. So only 1 armor line with passive skill point spent on them.
Do you get all the skyshard?

I get every skyshard - I do absolutely everything in each zone before moving on to the next. I've got all (or, for medium, almost all) passives for all 3 of the armour lines though, because I use all 3 in different combinations depending on which setup I'm using at the time. Also, it occurs to me that I haven't yet done a single vet dungeon on that character, so there's a bunch of skill points I haven't got yet for him.

I guess that's probably why... For me i just focus on being dps until i finish cadwell gold and reach v16.
From there i will start to think more about armor mixing.
Just curious do you know how many skillpoints you have right now? I have around 195++

*goes to check*
I've got 242 skillpoints, 1 of which is unspent. 104 of those skill points are in crafting passives - and I don't even have every passive in all of the crafting skills. If I had every crafting skill passive it would cost 139 skill points.

jelliedsoup wrote: »

Peel_Ya_Cap_517 wrote: »

#firstworldproblems

These are not the droids you're looking for, move along.

Whattt. You have 242 skill point but you still feel lacking? Something is wrong here...
I also do not put all point into all the passive, I don't put on those that highlight material nodes, and lately I dont think putting it on hireling is worth it.

Anyway it is probably because you leave too many options on what skill you use, lately I only put those that I use all the time.

For active skills I only put skill points in the ones I use in one of my 2 setups (those being DPS/Heals and Tank). For passives I put skill points in everything that's useful to me - that means all racials, all class passives, a lot of guild passives, all armour passives for the 2 armour skill lines I use, all weapon passives for the 3 weapon skill lines I use, and a few world skill passives. So that's 105 skill points needed in non-crafting passives (and even if I switched so that I only used one setup instead of 2, the number of necessary non-crafting passives would only drop down to 95), without even looking at the active skills.

Then I've got skill points in 18 active skills/ultimates, which isn't actually enough to have the flexibility you want in order to be able to swap out skills depending on the content you're going to be doing and what you need for it. So yeah, 242 skill points really isn't enough to max all of the crafting skills without significantly limiting your effectiveness.

To be honest, if you've only got 195ish skill points, I don't see how you can not feel severely limited if you're doing all of the crafting skills on that character. Even if you take out the "useless" crafting passives (keen eye, hirelings - which absolutely aren't useless but not necessary either, snakeblood, and either connoisseur or gourmand depending on whether you prefer food or drinks), you still need to spend 103 skill points for all of them - 88 if you take enchanting out of the equation. You should be using roughly the same number of non-crafting passives as me, but maybe a bit fewer if you only use 2 weapon skill lines and only 1 type of armour (and keep in mind that only using 1 type of armour is already significantly limiting your effectiveness), so let's say about 85 skill points for that. So just in passives you should have spent about 173 skill points, which only leaves you with 22 skill points to spend on active skills. Considering morphs, that's not even enough skill points to have 10 different active skills (5 on each bar), and 2 different ultimates - let alone enough skills to swap some out for different content. But you've also got about 30 skill points left to distribute?

Yeah, something doesn't add up... Either you haven't been actually maxing those 5 crafting skills, or you're severely limiting your effectiveness by not putting skill points into non-crafting passives.

Okay here it is, first of all I play Stamina Imperial NB
Current build I use 2 handed and a Bow.
While I get all passive from the 2 weapon skill line, I don't get all the active skill.

Basically with all the 5 slot + ultimate and it's morph, the minimum skill point spent is 24 on the active skill.
While I'm probably not as versatile as other that put multiple skill, I assure you I'm quite effective in doing what I do. (DPS)

Bear in mind since I'm stamina based, i dont bother putting skill point on mage guild passive (except persuasive will and it's Ultimate)
I definitely do not put on every passive class skill, because not all of them is beneficial for Stamina build.

On the crafting line, while I have maxed the skill line I only put the skill point up to my current loot level. Since I'm now at V8 area my equipment skill level is 8/10. So i can do writs easier.

I'm a werewolf, but currently i'm not using it, so no skill point over there.
I only use 3 ultimate in my current build.