TheNephilimCrow wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

CP5 wrote: »

I just find it all interesting that when sorcs, a class designed to stay mobile and generally keep their distance uses their class defining abilities to do so people complain that the sorc ran away, and when some sorcs said that nerfing bolt escape for the upteenth time was excessive people told them to adapt and that if they were against a bolt nerf that the sorcs 'just wanted to keep their easy mode playstyle'.

Now that ZOS so much as mentions NB's and nerfs in the same post the forums explode with all the people clammering that others just need to l2p all the time. When DK's kept scales up at almost all times, negating their weakness of range they told others to l2p (which generally included kindly stepping into the dk's banner garden to fight in melee range) but that didn't work for them. And if people still believe sorcerer's are in a good place after all the nerfs the class has gotten, i'm sure poor old nightblades can survive getting a nerf for once. I doubt it however, ZOS seems to have a thing for the class.

Revenge!!! amirite? (you don't have to answer that, I'm totally right on that)

I didn't ask for nerfs to bolt, my sorc is noticeably less mobile but it didn't kill the class. Please stop assuming ppl defending cloak are the same ones who asked for nerfs to bolt escape.

I'm not, i'm just pointing out how laughable this all is. NB's are the only class to recently avoid getting hit by a nerf bat, it shows, and ZOS will not likely change that fact. It's amusing that some NB's (not all) are quick to jump to cloaks defense when in the past if another class was up to nerf-bat they told them to adapt.

Um, you are clearly wrong. They nerfed NBs, too. Read the patch notes. Or are you too lazy that I have to point it out for another person, too?


Edit: You probably do, so, this is from Patch 1.06 and I left out some of the "Fixes" because the skills were doing things they didn't expect they would do, so if you want me to include those as well, I definitely can.

•Siphoning Strikes: •This ability is no longer a toggle, and now has a 15 second duration.


•This ability no longer restores a percentage of your Magicka or Stamina. Instead, it restores a fixed amount per hit.


Shadow Cloak
You also can no longer avoid infamy from lockpicking by using this ability.



(Putting this in to show some of the moves that pull out if hit)
•This ability will no longer be removed by the abilities listed below when you successfully avoid their damage, though note that taking damage will still remove you from stealth. •Critical Charge
•Flurry
•Focused Charge
•Shield Charge
•Teleport Strike
•Uppercut
•All weapon heavy attacks

It's clear I kicked a bees nest, so excuse me for that. I was just going to leave a quick post before taking myself (and the 2 of every class I run) out of the thread to let those who share particular views continue to reassure each other but i'm glad this came up.

I have recently gone through all of the major patch notes barring pts and jotted down all changes ZOS made to every class since launch (barring the 1.6 major changes as I don't have the time to sort that all out).

I will say that 1. Cloak giving an unfair advantage in the justice system was wrong, it isn't combat where someone can compensate or work around it, it was just cheese at its finest, in my opinion.

2. Siphoning Strikes got changed, as I was gathering all of the class changes I came up with 4 categories, buffs, nerfs, changes, and other (primarily visual fixes and bug fixes, you would be amazed by how many things were visual only). In regards to this ability, yes its not a toggle and is based off of flat values, but guess what? Now you gain a skill slot (in a game where you only have 10) AND it no longer reduces your weapon power.

That is a change, and you can go back to the old system, albeit with the morph some would argue shouldn't have been the toggle morph, but ZOS has made it clear they don't want people to just block cast and being able to toggle on a great resource skill and leaving it on at all times goes against ZOS's idea of limiting block casting. So yes, that skill was changed, but calling it a nerf and ignoring the skill slot it opened and the removal of the damage debuff is personal opinion.

And as one last thing, no I am not for nerfing cloak, it does however amuse me to see how the forum blades go at anyone who dares disagree with them and how vocal they have gotten with just the hint that zos was looking their way with the nerf bat for once. I also run 2 of each class, and for NB's that includes one magicka based and one stamina based one. I would much rather ZOS look at all skills available to players and bring them to the same level as cloak in terms of difficulty to remove from ones bar, that would be fantastic. But just know that NB's as a class have a lot going for them and are so much more than just cloak. But if you find comfort in hiding under cloak at all times I won't stop you.

Cathexis wrote: »

Cry cry poor nightblades are defenseless! Cry cry.

Sincerely,
Every forum nightblade.

That is the opposite of each forum. NB say the only defense NB have is cloak. NB are only defenseless without cloak is what NB are trying to say.

In fact how all of these forums go is ppl will say that cloak is OP. Then when a ton of players give all of the counters and strategies to cloak to sho why it is not OP, all the haters say well your just a NB so you are going to defend it. Or they say how they shouldn't have to "gimp" their build to defend against a NB.

You see rather than these players taking advice and incorporating the counters into their build and practice fighting NB via duels more, they just continue saying that the move is OP. there is no real reason given to why it is OP rather then they can just disappear at will. This is been shown to be false time and time again. They give no counter points to the advice given on how to counter cloak. "o this dont work or that dont work" is what they say. that is it. The bottom line is that I and many many others have not only seen the counters work against themselves, but they have used them themselves. SO saying something doesnt work when countless players get them to work and have been killed by the counters is just crazy.

I challenge someone to give solid reasoning to why it is OP. Not these unpersuasive responses that are really just people hating on the ability cause they can not play aganst it.

That said, I do think it is reasonable to stop magika regen when in cloak. That way the when you cant get cloak to work there is no penalty. when it does work you cant spam it. problem solved.

have a magicka DK and a stamina NB. Cloak does not seem over powered, slotting radiant Mage light is no biggy and far better than just against NB they aren't the only ones hiding stealthed in the shadows around IC waiting to gank.

And that mitigation pretty much undoes all bonuses attacking from stealth grants even on khajitt or bosmar, and then some, grants crit chance yes please, and I can detect stealthed enemies and it's always up and I myself can stealth with it.

Often I've revealed nearby enemies whilst maintaining stealth watched them panic

Cathexis wrote: »

revonine wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Cry cry poor nightblades are defenseless! Cry cry.

Sincerely,
Every forum nightblade.

You made an assumption in another nerf NB thread quoting one of my comments and here you are making an assumption of your own.
You may maintain your stance all you like but even ZOS has acknowledged cloak HAS legitimate counters and they will take that into consideration IF cloak gets adjusted. However I've played enough MMO's to know that cloak is gonna get nerfed so I'm in the process of leveling a Sorc.
And this is the last comment I'm making on these threads. I'm tired of saying the same thing over and over.

What assumption am I making exactly? I'm just tldring every response I read from nightblades.

You want more accuracy? Fine.

Sincerely the majority of forum nightblades.

Is that better?

and nb get the same crap response all the same

Jumper45 wrote: »

Honestly the only other options is to raise the cost per use like bolt or roll but make the cloak non breakable which gets you no where in the catch game. you could still DOT them or kill them with AOEs but you would have to hit the right spots which honestly im ok if the dot remove morph was tossed for something else and you can dot up a NB before they go cloak gtfo. Adding costs to it as it is now is NOT a viable option simply because... it doesn't work...

most suggestions are like this it sounds nice in principle but it still only really weakens stamina NB not magicka. You can still purge the dots then Cloak and a few magicka NB I expect have a purge because you can remover mark/curse with purge and cloak up. It only makes it harder for stamina NB and does little to magicka NB endless cloak. And stamina NB still suffer having to chose if they want shadow image/fear/double take with their cloak. I think most accept bow dodge roll speed boost as good enough to combo with cloak, but I doubt many run without fear on their bar. All NB exclusive escape utility is from magicka skills

In short it is hard to do anything directly with cloak that won't make it only an inconvenience for magicka NB and devastating for stamina NB.

Also as a NB I think people underestimate how much of a deterrent it is for NB when they see radiant Mage light on a sorc. They have high crit but shields aren't critable, they can attack from stealth but it is mitigated with radiant ontop of normal mitigation, and for magicka NB because sorc's still pop harness magicka, no shield breaker sets for magicka users it is actually very hard for them to burst down a well set up sorc with the light armour passives on top.

I think the game is more balanced than people realise just to few play only one class and don't try enough of other classes to know how they work and how to defeat them, and this is why threads always create a divide between those who play NB and know how effectively they can be countered, and those who are inexperienced and so fall victim to a NB's hit and run tactics required because they are too squishy for a head to head against many classes.

willymchilybily wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

Honestly the only other options is to raise the cost per use like bolt or roll but make the cloak non breakable which gets you no where in the catch game. you could still DOT them or kill them with AOEs but you would have to hit the right spots which honestly im ok if the dot remove morph was tossed for something else and you can dot up a NB before they go cloak gtfo. Adding costs to it as it is now is NOT a viable option simply because... it doesn't work...

most suggestions are like this it sounds nice in principle but it still only really weakens stamina NB not magicka. You can still purge the dots then Cloak and a few magicka NB I expect have a purge because you can remover mark/curse with purge and cloak up. It only makes it harder for stamina NB and does little to magicka NB endless cloak. And stamina NB still suffer having to chose if they want shadow image/fear/double take with their cloak. I think most accept bow dodge roll speed boost as good enough to combo with cloak, but I doubt many run without fear on their bar. All NB exclusive escape utility is from magicka skills

I dont think purge is as viable as you would think. Mid combat you wont have time to purge a bunch of stuff then cloak and run. I dont think there is enough time unless who ever youre fighting is being silly. But honestly if you go the purge route youre adding on GCDs which buys the attacker time vs now where its just removed. It also adds another layer of detection vs now. Not to mention the costs of purging then going into cloak. There shouldnt be a monumental effort just to get cloak to work. I dont see an issue here for stam blades though. Other classes arnt rolling in dispells either and get by ok. Other stams are just using vigor etc like everyone else.

I dont think it has anything to do with sounding nice in principle. Ive seen it work countless times in other games with stealth. Its a high risk high reward tactic. You can get out of combat but the question is how late do you wait to do it. If you wait too late a stray aoe or dots will finish you off while you are in stealth Or you hot before you ditch out but thats yet another GCD/cost/skill slot to deal with. Not to mention this will give a reason for dots ( dots are currently too slow for the speed of combat atm) so thats 2 birds with 1 stone. Since the game has no cooldowns you need to think in terms of GCDs for balance. Dont get me wrong they literally shot themselves in the foot by not having CDs to balance with . So the more actions you have to take to make it work is the only balance you'll get other then Costs/Changing the values. Building up to the act of cloaking and running is pretty important balancing tool that everyone is over looking instead of just going to direct nerfing of cloak.

Not to mention purge is yet another skill slot to give away. Skills slots can also be a way of balancing. -facepalm- One thing that everyone and i mean Everyone short of a few players seems to not realize.

Skill slots... You only have a few.... Also im not sure how that wouldnt effect magicka NBs. It ends perma cloaking. But like i said. Thats not the issue as much as just going into stealth after only a few cloaks. so it will change the situation little. Even if they did nothing but add the bolt cost to the cloak the situation would still be the same.

If it were to get the bolt cost as it is now it wouldnt make sense. Reason being is Cloak can be broken Bolt cannot but both achieve a similar goal. You Can bolt 3 times or so out of a situation and just go into stealth. Cloak would work the same. But only if it cannot be broken. Cloak 3 times and go into stealth. The reason it doesnt work like that currently is because cloak can be broken. So which way do you go. Unbreakable cloak and high cost. Or Breakable cloak and low cost. Apparently everyone wants Breakable Cloak and high cost. Which is not balanced in the eyes of other escape mechanics.

Id also like to re-mention. Cloak is a DPS rotation for a build not just an escape ability. So its not as easy as just nerfing the ability into the ground and calling it a day. Any Ambush builds will be destroyed with a high cost cloak or cloak that wont stick mid combat in pve. If all things are considered the only real option is no Magicka regen while cloak is up. Magicka NBs wont get perma cloak and Stam NBs can keep their builds.

Also We all have to keep in mind. PVE-=/=-PVP . You cant mindlessly nerf abilites that effect both pve and pvp. It effects all of us even if were another class. If you take away NB Ambush build then say goodbye to PVE Ambush stuns on mobs etc. Other builds will be tosses and it will be pushed into 1 or 2 builds that work thus making NBs all the same. Anyone who is pro nerfing is very selfish. You should be aiming at a compromise not just nerfing it so you dont have to deal with it. You just get to brush your hands and say well glad thats over its not my problem to deal with anyways. Abilities that arnt working as intended is what needs to be nerfed. If youre telling me cloak isnt working as intended then we'll have to look back on a long history of MMO experiences to get our answers.

Because honestly in all my years of playing a MMO a rogue class was the one I played the least. I never liked the hit and run tactics because its very high risk high reward If youre good at it you'll live but one false move and youre caught and toasted. But i'll tell you this much. ESO NBs have it the hardest vs other games. Its breakable. It has a cost. and it lasts 2.5 seconds ( facepalm- holy crap thats a short timer). The other games. Generally it was perma with abilities that let you get back into it mid combat along with plenty of utilies to go about doing it like Unbreakable Cloaks, Dot Removers etc...

Im not talking about some no name games either. Everquest, Everquest 2, WOW, Anarchy Online, Warhammer Online, DAOC, GW, GW2. The list goes on. All games this one has built its blocks off of and ive never seen it as difficult as it is now. So I ponder why people want it nerfed even further. My guess is times change which is fine. But at some point it gets reduced so much its not even a thing anymore.

I mean jesus my main is a Templar Healer. I have enough issues on my plate with my abilities/passives etc not working but I can see where this situation is going and a game where you get to mix match tons of builds to make something fun for you to play does not mean that if you dont like someone elses build because yours doesnt work against it you do nothing but push a crusade to bring it down to a level where it doesnt work anymore. You should be looking for a compromise and sadly ive seen very very very little of it outside of the devs themselves saying they will compromise if even a change is put on the table which ive yet to see from players really with a few exceptions.

Whats the point of this novel? Everyone needs to relax so we can make rational decisions...
Cooler heads always prevail.

How did I miss this days ago... this is hilariously misinformed...

Bogdan_Kobzar wrote: »

Everything is working as Intended

Lol

Infinite12 wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

Cloak can be broken Bolt cannot

That right there is why cloak SHOULDN'T get an increase cost nerf. Bolt escape got a cost nerf because it's pretty much a GUARANTEED escape where as cloak is not.

Lol. Did you ever even use bolt??


Lol. No it didn't and cloak has a way higher success rate than bolt ever had.

Cathexis wrote: »

Infinite12 wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

Cloak can be broken Bolt cannot

That right there is why cloak SHOULDN'T get an increase cost nerf. Bolt escape got a cost nerf because it's pretty much a GUARANTEED escape where as cloak is not.

Lol. Did you ever even use bolt??


Lol. No it didn't and cloak has a way higher success rate than bolt ever had.

Cloak has less of a success rate then bolt does. Mid combat every time you get hit cloak doesnt work including dots so it literally takes 3-4 casts If at all just to get it to stick on you for more then a second when youre being hit by someone else. Thats 3-4 GCDs. ( 4 seconds) of combat youve lost vs bolt which is 1 and you have the effect. Granted bolts accuracy was pretty bad with objects around you but has sence been updated to work a little better. but to say cloak has a higher success rate im not so sure about. Situational ofcourse though. Not to mention you can opt for bolt morphs that stuns and etc. Which helps with it accuracy. Cloak doesnt stun so it can be knocked quite easly as long as you are going into your next attack. Which is generally true most of the time.

L2P and spell.

Cathexis wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Infinite12 wrote: »

Jumper45 wrote: »

Cloak can be broken Bolt cannot

That right there is why cloak SHOULDN'T get an increase cost nerf. Bolt escape got a cost nerf because it's pretty much a GUARANTEED escape where as cloak is not.

Lol. Did you ever even use bolt??


Lol. No it didn't and cloak has a way higher success rate than bolt ever had.

Cloak has less of a success rate then bolt does. Mid combat every time you get hit cloak doesnt work including dots so it literally takes 3-4 casts If at all just to get it to stick on you for more then a second when youre being hit by someone else. Thats 3-4 GCDs. ( 4 seconds) of combat youve lost vs bolt which is 1 and you have the effect. Granted bolts accuracy was pretty bad with objects around you but has sence been updated to work a little better. but to say cloak has a higher success rate im not so sure about. Situational ofcourse though. Not to mention you can opt for bolt morphs that stuns and etc. Which helps with it accuracy. Cloak doesnt stun so it can be knocked quite easly as long as you are going into your next attack. Which is generally true most of the time.

Hah 50% of bolt escapes you get nuked after the first cast, not even considering fall damage, obstructing objects, ninja hover bug, the fact that it doesn't render you invisible, the fact that you still get mob aggro, the exponential cost, being chained by dks, oR other sorcs.

Also cloak allows you to move through mobs and it's cast reliability is never a problem for basically any non novice nightblade.

Bolt right now is basically a gimp teleport strike with no target ability, grants a free cc immunity, does tiny damage, and has exponential cost.

Read the full post please.

50% of the bolt escapes you get nuked after the first cast? im going to assuming that is just your opinion lol. Thats situational like i said. Fall damage was patched i believe to a degree. If i recall anyway i do remember seeing it. I alrdy spoke on objects. It doesnt need to render you invisible. You gain distance where as cloak does not Bolt -=//=-Cloak... Thought that was common sense. While running through mobs cloaked does not agro it does not drop agro either. But anyone can stealth through mobs. Cloak can be chained by DKs ETC. That was/is getting a fix. Exponential cost is a moot point. As they were uncatchable till the fix where as cloaked targets are still catchable. Like I said countless times Bolt does not have any counters. Cloak does. They should not even be in the same category other then both being escapes. Other then that they work/act completely different. Steak-=//=- Pasta. Both are foods. -slaps his knee-

LBxFinalDeath wrote: »

At least with cloak you have to manually run away and don't just teleport miles away with a get outta jail free card.

Know whats truly ridiculous? Streak.

Someone spamming gap closers? Streak at him so he'll have little to no stamina left after spamming gap closers then having to break out of a stun then streak away and hide.

Streak even knocks people in cloak out of cloak which is quite easy to do since once again they have to manually run places, sprinting knocks you out of cloak.

I wish a 15m jump was a miles long teleport. But alas someone who knows how to keep pace will. Also poor nightblades, a skill that has an aoe damage (which we are told by nb's to spam) has a cost that goes up with repeated use. But i'm sure nb's would be broken by a single change but bolt can use yet another, just to quell the complaints. I'm sure.

I don't even really play NB, but these constant 'nerf cloak' threads are getting ridiculous! Are people really having that much of a hard time against NB's? Because I just don't see the issue... How is it any different from sorc bolt? Apart from the fact that a sorc can stun and damage you with that, all in one skill, of course... If a NB uses his cloak to his advantage and is not escaping, which I find is the main reason they do it, why is that such an issue? Its what their class is all about, no? I kind of feel bad for them tbh... Having everyone try to take their only defence (and what defines them as a class!) away from them just because they were killed by a NB, so it must be OP! Just leave them alone!

That is true, all others did get their defences nerfed, but we are still ok really... Sorc can still use their shields for defence, Templars can still heal until the cows come home, and DK are still really tanky with all of their defensive skills to choose from, but if NB (especially magic NB's) have their cloak taken away from them, what do they have left??