Julianos and Twice-Born Star

Asayre · October 2015

Thanks! I'll wait till you get some nice stat pictures of newly crafted gear on the PTS @Paulington

Paulington · October 2015

Having spoken to Asayre, we double-counted some enchants etc and found that TTBS and Julianos are very very close in metric however swapping to The Shadow may slightly improve Julianos over TTBS.

I'll be testing on the PTS tomorrow, so we'll have real numbers!

.

Asayre · October 2015

I believe this will be my final estimate for the stats for Julianos and TBS

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pgO64PFrMUg6o_0vJ5vMgWTLWJ4YT6f0hlhaXKFFqyY/edit?usp=sharing

The ability metric for Sorc shows that TBS is ever so slightly better. I will go with TBS due to the extra health and the fact that with other sources of critical damage multiplier, such as Rearming Trap and Aggresive Warhorn, TBS will be even stronger than Julianos.

Julianos - Sorc - Staff - 118902

Juliano - Sorc - DW - 129792

TBS - Sorc - Staff - 119163

TBS - Sorc - DW - 130423

Julianos - Templar - 117477

TBS - Templar - 123281

His Crayness · October 2015

I'm interested to know from a magicka templar perspective if a loss of spell damage in favour of crit damage buffs results in a loss with regard to the Burning Light passive? Or do crit modifiers apply to that too?

EgoRush · October 2015

Hmm I'm going to hold out on any recommendations for now until Paul gets these tests done. I'll be online later too, Paul, and can come to the PTS to help test things (e.g. give you Illuminate, War Horn/CPrayer to see how this affects numbers).

Birdovic · October 2015

By The way a tip for more Tests coming: You already got The new Maelstrom Weapons Info, you could Check precise + 189 more Spelldmg

d8rmir · October 2015

Hi @Asayre,

in your computation of the gear Spell Damage for DW Sorcerer it looks like you are adding both a Torug's set bonus and a Maelstrom bonus. Am I missing something?

quickblade418 · October 2015

This is my setup with Kagrenac and spell damage mundus stone.

and This is when entropy, Molag Kena and a instant Crystal fragment proc

Instant · October 2015

quickblade418 wrote: »

This is my setup with Kagrenac and spell damage mundus stone.

and This is when entropy, Molag Kena and a instant Crystal fragment proc

More tooltip damage doesn't necessarily mean more dps.

quickblade418 · October 2015

Im a glass cannon meant for pvp , also my skills arnt really what I use on my bar for pvp usually , ill go with magicka det instead of lightning flood and a few other tweaks

stonerskate109 · October 2015

I'm running 2 torugs pact, 3 willpower, 5 kagrenacs as well as 2 valkyn skoria and I sit at 2840 spell damage as a templar. I'm definitely going with julianos when it comes out I'll sit at closer to 30 with valkyn skoria procs which will be super sweet

stonerskate109 · October 2015

3000*

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2015

Paulington wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

@Altyrann I was initially calculating for a Sorcerer. I should have said that somewhere but I forgot. The Expert Mage passive is a Sorcerer only passive. In this new calculations I have separated calculations for Templars and Sorcerers. I have included the Minor Sorcery buff from illuminate for the Templar calculations. On re-reading your comment, I realised that I misunderstood you initially. I should have added an extra 5% since a templar group member will give the Illuminate passive. I didn't include it in the screenshots below but if I added it in the calculation, the ability metric for Julianos is 123741 and for TBS 123963

@le.khang94ub17_ESO while I'm no magicka nightblade expert. TBS is probably still better even when taking into account the Pressure Point and Hemorrhage passive. Of course all calculations assume legendary v16 gear so you better get upgrading...

Thank you for the comments @Paulington and @EgoRush and the helpful discussion with @hedna123b14_ESO

I rechecked my calculations and performed it again with the setup suggested by @Paulington and my final conclusion is that TBS is still better. It seems that increasing spell damage favours Twice-born as seen in the calculations for sorcerers. With regards to templars, I previously thought that the Piercing Spear passive would favour Julianos since it would be increasing the effect of Elfborn. But in saying that I forgot that Piercing Spear also increases the effect of the Shadow mundus. Thus the difference between TBS and Julianos is larger for a templar (and in favour of TBS). This also means that skills that boost critical damage modifier such as Rearming Trap and Aggresive warhorn will favour TBS more.

As an aside, my calculations suggest that Nirnhoned is better for targets with a spell resistance greater than 10000. Since most bosses appear to have at least 16000 resistance (unless they are weak to a specific element) Nirnhoned should always be used even when Major Breach is used as this would lower the Spell Resistance to ~11000. All calculations below assume a CP distribution of 100 in Elemental Expert (for Sorc) or Thaumathurge (for Templars), 58 in Elfborn and 9 in Spell Erosion. This is always the optimum CP distribution for Templars even if the mob has a Spell Resistance of 32000 (it changes at an unrealistic Spell Resistance)

Here are the calculations for a sorcerer in support of my argument. The ability metric is based on a weighted sum of magicka and spell damage multiplied by the product of the critical damage chance and critical damage modifier. A higher ability metric score is preferred.

Julianos - Ability metric - 121327

TBS - Ability metric - 121657

And one for templars

Julianos - Ability metric - 119941

TBS - Ability metric 121162

And a link to a viewable spreadsheet
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vCAUoC-Fr_obOadUyFnGkt9V539PeKydKlaTtYe2szU/edit?usp=sharing

Hey @Asayre.

Thanks for all the data, made for really interesting reading. I have modified your spreadsheet and come to the opposite conclusion however.

From your spreadsheet on Juliano's Sorc, your "bonus" spell damage seemed low and just doing a bit of maths of my own I come up with a much higher number including the Kena proc.

Willpower: 751
Kena: 645 (Base 129 + 516 proc).
Julianos: 299
Maelstrom: 189
Total: 1,884.

I copied your spreadsheet and put this new number in and I get a performance metric of 129,351 which is around 6.5% higher than your TTBS performance metric. This is on the staff bar too. Currently the Dual-Wield bar with Torug's gives an extra 334 spell damage which would increase the metric even more.

To me this suggests that Juliano's is the better set here, but I am open to correction. We will find out in a few hours! . The spreadsheet I modified can be found here.

I am very interested at how you have arrived at willpower jewelry granting 751 spell power if the set bonus is 186 and each spell damage enchant is 174, giving you 708 spell damage...

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2015

stonerskate109 wrote: »

I'm running 2 torugs pact, 3 willpower, 5 kagrenacs as well as 2 valkyn skoria and I sit at 2840 spell damage as a templar. I'm definitely going with julianos when it comes out I'll sit at closer to 30 with valkyn skoria procs which will be super sweet

Using skoria is a dps loss...

Paulington · October 2015

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

I am very interested at how you have arrived at willpower jewelry granting 751 spell power if the set bonus is 186 and each spell damage enchant is 174, giving you 708 spell damage...

I literally just equipped/unequipped the set and got the difference in spell power on my character sheet. I would wager that I forgot to remove sorcerer abilities from my bar as each one gives 2% extra spell damage.

.

At any rate, Asayre and I had a chat and determined we'd both double counted in some places and that the metric is almost too close to call between the two, so we're going to get some real data when the PTS comes up!

.

Yonkit · October 2015

You keep running the thief on your Julianos set... Run the shadow on both then compare. You'll still be over 50% with the Julianos, so you need to have the right mundus made for all comparisons.

Elijah_Crow · October 2015

Yonkit wrote: »

You keep running the thief on your Julianos set... Run the shadow on both then compare. You'll still be over 50% with the Julianos, so you need to have the right mundus made for all comparisons.

If you run TBS you have to run Theif as one of your Mundus. If you run Julianos, you have spell damage approximately equal to the Apprentice built in, and your crit will be high enough not to need Theif leaving you open for Shadow which puts you ahead in DPS.

I went through the same thing with stamina DPS with TBS and Hundings.

Asayre · October 2015

@His Crayness , I don't think you can crit with burning light that said I'm not sure how to model the decreased Burning light damage for Twice-Born Star.

@d8rmir you're right in that I accidentally calculated an extra Torug set bonus in my second set of spreadsheets. This has been corrected in the third set of spreadsheets. I am in total agreement with @Paulington that the numbers for Sorcerers is way too close and in-game testing is required to determine actual stat values to obtain a better prediction.

@Yonkit, I am estimating 51.8% as the crit chance with Julianos (without the Thief Mundus)

10% (Base) + 10% (Prodigy) + 10% (Inner light) + 12% (Spell Precision) + 6.3% (Julianos) +3% (Exploitation)

I did forget to include the Exploitation bonus in my last estimate.

I would not use Shadow even so because from my previous calculations, I found that if
Crit multipler / Crit chance > 60/59 then the Thief should be used otherwise the Shadow is preferred.

The reasoning for this statement is taken from another thread

C is the Crit chance
M is the Crit multiplier
T is the Thief Mundus (0.118 base)
S is the Shadow Mundus (0.12 base)
Note that the Crit multiplier here is 1.xx but I using a crit multiplier of 0.xx

Damage_Shadow = (1-C)*Base Damage + C*(M+S)*Base Damage
Damage_Thief = (1-C-T)*Base Damage + (C+T)*M*Base Damage

Damage_Thief – Damage_Shadow = Base Damage ( T*(M-1) – C*S )

Thief is better than Shadow when, T*(M-1) – C*S > 0
This is equivalent to fulfilling the equation below
(M-1) / C > 60/59

My crit multiplier with 58 points in Elfborn is 0.59 thus the Thief is preferred.

The Ability Metric with the Thief is 120416 (this is higher than the 118902 in my last spreadsheet because I included the Exploitation passive this time) but with the Shadow 119281.

Trikki · October 2015

Dracane wrote: »

@Asayre Sorry for not explaining it better
Crit becomes more recognizeable over time. The more hits you do, the more likely it is to land a critical hit and the more your crit chance becomes impactfull.

So abilities that you can fire frequently benefit more from higher crit chance than slow bursty abilities.

I think you need to go back to Math 101.

Yonkit · October 2015

Asayre wrote: »

@His Crayness , I don't think you can crit with burning light that said I'm not sure how to model the decreased Burning light damage for Twice-Born Star.

@d8rmir you're right in that I accidentally calculated an extra Torug set bonus in my second set of spreadsheets. This has been corrected in the third set of spreadsheets. I am in total agreement with @Paulington that the numbers for Sorcerers is way too close and in-game testing is required to determine actual stat values to obtain a better prediction.

@Yonkit, I am estimating 51.8% as the crit chance with Julianos (without the Thief Mundus)

10% (Base) + 10% (Prodigy) + 10% (Inner light) + 12% (Spell Precision) + 6.3% (Julianos) +3% (Exploitation)

I did forget to include the Exploitation bonus in my last estimate.

I would not use Shadow even so because from my previous calculations, I found that if
Crit multipler / Crit chance > 60/59 then the Thief should be used otherwise the Shadow is preferred.

The reasoning for this statement is taken from another thread
C is the Crit chance
M is the Crit multiplier
T is the Thief Mundus (0.118 base)
S is the Shadow Mundus (0.12 base)
Note that the Crit multiplier here is 1.xx but I using a crit multiplier of 0.xx

Damage_Shadow = (1-C)*Base Damage + C*(M+S)*Base Damage
Damage_Thief = (1-C-T)*Base Damage + (C+T)*M*Base Damage

Damage_Thief – Damage_Shadow = Base Damage ( T*(M-1) – C*S )

Thief is better than Shadow when, T*(M-1) – C*S > 0
This is equivalent to fulfilling the equation below
(M-1) / C > 60/59

My crit multiplier with 58 points in Elfborn is 0.59 thus the Thief is preferred.

The Ability Metric with the Thief is 120416 (this is higher than the 118902 in my last spreadsheet because I included the Exploitation passive this time) but with the Shadow 119281.

Interesting...

Ezareth · October 2015

I'm curious on whether Divines on the Julianos set large pieces makes sense at 501 CP with all of the +magicka multipliers (including CP).

For TBS I know 7 divines makes sense.

Additionally have you verified Elfborn passive is working correctly on PTS? Last time I checked it was only giving half benefit. 1% Crit damage was actually making your 50% = 50.5%.

d8rmir · October 2015

Just a last (slightly off-topic) question @Asayre,
do I understand correctly that the reason you prefer DW over 2H for a sorcerer is that Heavy Weapons passive does not apply to Overload attacks?
Maybe you have actually already written it somewhere, and I missed it.

EgoRush · October 2015

d8rmir wrote: »

Just a last (slightly off-topic) question @Asayre,
do I understand correctly that the reason you prefer DW over 2H for a sorcerer is that Heavy Weapons passive does not apply to Overload attacks?
Maybe you have actually already written it somewhere, and I missed it.

Sorry, answering for Asayre here. Yes, that's correct. The Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade & Blunt passives are removed when you enter Overload as you're no longer wielding the weapon. So DW is preferred because you still have the increased spell damage due to the DW bar.

Asayre · October 2015

@Ezareth, for the setup listed above divines is still preferred. I checked a few calculations for Critical Damage Multiplier on the PTS and it still seems to work in the same way as on Live, namely

Critical damage modifier = 1 + (Shadow Mundus*Divines + 0.5*(1+0.02*JP)) * (1+Other Passives)

Critical damage modifier is truncated at 2 decimal places.

JP are jump points in Elfborn. They occur when you have 1, 5, 11, 17, 24, 31, 40, 49, 58, 68, 78 and 89 points in Elfborn. To clarify, JP = 1 if you have 1 point in Elfborn and JP = 9 if you have 58 points in Elfborn.

@EgoRush thanks for answering the question. It's much appreciated. Also thank you for alerting me to the change in how Twin Blade and Blunt is applied. From a quick test on the PTS, it appears that both passives Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons are being applied in the same way, namely 5% increased tooltip damage.

d8rmir · October 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

d8rmir wrote: »

Just a last (slightly off-topic) question @Asayre,
do I understand correctly that the reason you prefer DW over 2H for a sorcerer is that Heavy Weapons passive does not apply to Overload attacks?
Maybe you have actually already written it somewhere, and I missed it.

Sorry, answering for Asayre here. Yes, that's correct. The Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade & Blunt passives are removed when you enter Overload as you're no longer wielding the weapon. So DW is preferred because you still have the increased spell damage due to the DW bar.

Ok thanks...two more questions then:

1) when you say "increased spell damage" you mean Torug's 2p set bonus, correct? otherwise, with both Heavy Weapons and Twin Blade & Blunt passives removed, 2H would still beat DW, right?
2) with reference to Asayre's last spreadsheet, the value 1682 for DW spell damage includes Twin Blade & Blunt passive, doesn't it? hence the ability metric value would be smaller than the stated one in Overload mode. Still, it is higher than the ability metric with 2H due to the Torug's bonus.

As you see I am not doubting about the correctness of the results, I just want to check that I have fully understood the game mechanics.

Asayre wrote: »

@EgoRush thanks for answering the question. It's much appreciated. Also thank you for alerting me to the change in how Twin Blade and Blunt is applied. From a quick test on the PTS, it appears that both passives Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons are being applied in the same way, namely 5% increased tooltip damage.

This sounds like "DW with Torug's 2p bonus will beat 2H in any case, from now on"

Asayre · October 2015

@d8rmir yes it would appear that DW with anything will beat 2H with the new update. I really liked my greatsword but it seems like it is time to go back to dual wielding swords.

Dual wielding naturally has increased spell damage even without any passives. And yes I was including the Twin Blade and Blunt passive for my previous calculation to get 1682 for spell damage from dual wielding (1335 (value for a sword) *1.2 (for dual wielding) *1.05 (Twin blade and blunt passive). Yes the ability metric decreases in overload mode and is still higher than 2H because of the extra Torug bonus and because DW is naturally higher than 2H

d8rmir · October 2015

I actually thought that 2H was naturally higher than DW, thank you for correcting me. And thank you for confirming everything else.
Looking forward to see if this change goes live, please keep us up-to-date.

Ezareth · October 2015

Asayre wrote: »

@Ezareth, for the setup listed above divines is still preferred. I checked a few calculations for Critical Damage Multiplier on the PTS and it still seems to work in the same way as on Live, namely

Critical damage modifier = 1 + (Shadow Mundus*Divines + 0.5*(1+0.02*JP)) * (1+Other Passives)

Critical damage modifier is truncated at 2 decimal places.

JP are jump points in Elfborn. They occur when you have 1, 5, 11, 17, 24, 31, 40, 49, 58, 68, 78 and 89 points in Elfborn. To clarify, JP = 1 if you have 1 point in Elfborn and JP = 9 if you have 58 points in Elfborn.

@EgoRush thanks for answering the question. It's much appreciated. Also thank you for alerting me to the change in how Twin Blade and Blunt is applied. From a quick test on the PTS, it appears that both passives Twin Blade and Blunt and Heavy Weapons are being applied in the same way, namely 5% increased tooltip damage.

@Asayre

Has anyone tested on whether using the Shadow Mundus with divines (giving you fractional benefits) change these "Jump points"?

Also are you using 11% or 12% Crit for your Thief crit value?
From the 2.2.2 Patch Notes:

Mundus Stones
The Thief
Fixed an issue where this boon was incorrectly becoming less powerful as you leveled up. It will now maintain a consistent 11% net increase to your Critical and Spell Critical values.

Sharkano · October 2015

Quickblade says here is his setup, but then only provide stats not a setup. I have no idea how he can be at 5k spell damage while also at 24k hp and 40k magicka. Astounding numbers, but how?

Ishammael · October 2015

Interesting info. Thank you for the work. TBS seems quite the well rounded setup considering the changes to thief and shadow since IC.