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Julianos and Twice-Born Star

  • Colosso-monstro
    Colosso-monstro
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    Sharkano wrote: »
    Quickblade says here is his setup, but then only provide stats not a setup. I have no idea how he can be at 5k spell damage while also at 24k hp and 40k magicka. Astounding numbers, but how?

    Look up yolo wizard
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @Ezareth, I am not aware of anyone checking the Elfborn jump points with the Shadow and divines. And I was using 11.8% for Thief, the live value. Thanks for bring to my attention the change in Thief crit value.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
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    Could you explain "jump points" in more detail? It sounds like critical damage is not increased with every point but only in bursts at certain numbers of points invested? Does the weapon critical star work the same? I got more critical damage after my first point, nothing from points 2 and 3, and have been ignoring that star as bugged ever since.
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    Yes it means that your critical damage is only increased when you have reached a 'jump point'. There are no futher effects until you reach the next jump point. Here is a graph showing how your critical damage increases as a function of Elfborn tooltip value.

    2klggj.png

    I did test a few points with Precise Strikes and found the jump points were the same.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Nifty2g
    Nifty2g
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    @Asayre When you get the chance do you mind testing this on different classes, as we know ZOS tends to have different calculations for different classes and some scale differently with skills and champion points etc as all of this is done on a sorcerer I'm just kinda curious to see how it varies in different classes (if at all)

    As for Templars I've been doing a lot of testing and have found out that TBS beats pretty much any other set for Templars, this shines truly when you're in 7/7 Divines which can be tricky to obtain. Actually most if not all of the classes are benefiting most from TBS in 7/7 Divines
    Edited by Nifty2g on October 22, 2015 3:40AM
    #MOREORBS
  • Prabooo
    Prabooo
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    I would suggest experimenting with a NB and spamming shadowy cloak, get that crit without the shadow of a cloak... get it ;)
  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    Nifty2g wrote: »
    @Asayre When you get the chance do you mind testing this on different classes, as we know ZOS tends to have different calculations for different classes and some scale differently with skills and champion points etc as all of this is done on a sorcerer I'm just kinda curious to see how it varies in different classes (if at all)

    As for Templars I've been doing a lot of testing and have found out that TBS beats pretty much any other set for Templars, this shines truly when you're in 7/7 Divines which can be tricky to obtain. Actually most if not all of the classes are benefiting most from TBS in 7/7 Divines

    Nifty, have you played about with Julianos on the PTS yet? I'm still torn between TBS and Julianos for my magicka Templar.
    Server: EU Pact
    Guild: Hodor (PvE - www.hodor-guild.eu), Chimaira (PvE)
    Character: Oriantha (Templar Healer), Zelda's Inferno (Dragonknight Tank), The Lumen Sage (Stamina Sorcerer DD), The Umbra Witch (Magicka Nightblade DD), Flirts-With-Boys (Stamina Nightblade DD), Oriantha Ellesidil (Magicka Sorcerer DD/healer), Wariantha (Magicka Warden in the making)

    Current vMA score (Templar): Pending return to game
    World Record for all trials pre-Thieves Guild
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj clear
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj speed run clear
    Returning to the game for Morrowind
  • F7sus4
    F7sus4
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    Great work, Asayre!

    A few things for further consideration:
    • What was your amount of Champion Points invested in Elfborn during the test?
    • Testing Julianos with Shadow Mundus
    • Results will be different for Nightblades with their +10% Critical Damage (Hemorrhage passive), which naturally leans them towards Crit builds more
  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    F7sus4 wrote: »
    Great work, Asayre!

    A few things for further consideration:
    • What was your amount of Champion Points invested in Elfborn during the test?
    • Testing Julianos with Shadow Mundus
    • Results will be different for Nightblades with their +10% Critical Damage (Hemorrhage passive), which naturally leans them towards Crit builds more

    The crit passive is similar for us Templars too with Piercing Spear. I will test the Elfborn jumps on my Templar this weekend to see if our passives change the steps at all.
    Server: EU Pact
    Guild: Hodor (PvE - www.hodor-guild.eu), Chimaira (PvE)
    Character: Oriantha (Templar Healer), Zelda's Inferno (Dragonknight Tank), The Lumen Sage (Stamina Sorcerer DD), The Umbra Witch (Magicka Nightblade DD), Flirts-With-Boys (Stamina Nightblade DD), Oriantha Ellesidil (Magicka Sorcerer DD/healer), Wariantha (Magicka Warden in the making)

    Current vMA score (Templar): Pending return to game
    World Record for all trials pre-Thieves Guild
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj clear
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj speed run clear
    Returning to the game for Morrowind
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @F7sus4 calculations were done with a total of 501 Champion Points. 58 points were put into Elfborn. Calculations with the Shadow has been done for SOrceres with Julianos wielding a staff. The Ability Metric with the Thief is 120416 (this is higher than the 118902 in my last spreadsheet because I included the Exploitation passive this time) but with the Shadow 119281. @EgoRush is right, you can just use the Templar spreadsheets. You can increase the critical chance by 2% for each Assassination ability you have. And thank you @EgoRush for testing Elfborn jumps with your templar. I look forward to your results.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • d8rmir
    d8rmir
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    Hi,

    How does Minor Force (buff from Trap Beast and morphs) fit into the formula

    Critical damage modifier = 1 + (Shadow Mundus*Divines + 0.5*(1+0.02*JP)) * (1+Other Passives) ?

    Is it stackable with Templar's and NB's passive?
    And, by the way, is it now working as intented? It was bugged at some point.

  • SublimeSparo
    SublimeSparo
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    Hi,

    Slightly off main topic but you guys seem very clued up about the maths behind the mechanics;

    Am I correct in understanding these optimum allocation of champion points;
    Sorcerer- 100 elemental expert, 58 elfborn, 9 spell erosion
    Templar- 100 thaumaturge, 58 elfborn, 9 spell erosion

    I have been putting points into thaumaturge on my sorc, is there a meaningful difference?
    PS4 EU CP900. PS4 NA CP600,
    vAA HM ☆ vHRC HM ☆ vSO HM ☆ vMOL
    4th Console vMOL clear,
    vMA cleared on all classes stam & magic

    My Tribe
    EU
    High Sparo - Altmer - mSo DD.
    Wood Sparo - Bosmer - sNB DD
    Nord Sparo - Nord -sDK DD/Tank.
    Bubble Girl - Imperial -sTe DD
    Succubus Sue - Breton - mNB Tank.
    Andrana Stormlock - Altmer - mTe Healer/ DD
    Elvali Marvani - Dunmer - mDK DD.
    Venemus Draconem - Redguard - sDK DD
    Jayri Leki - Redguard - sSo DD.
    Miss Jabsalot - Altmer - mTe PvP DD/ Tank
    Mireli Hlaano - Dunmer - mNB DD.
    Ms Shanks - Redguard - sNB DD/ le bank

    NA
    Dilemma Dame - Altmer - mDK DD
    Stamsorc Kitty - Redguard - sSor DD
    Aia Draconis - Imperial - sDK Tank
    Decides-Who-Lives - Argonian - mTe Healer
    You wont stop me - Altmer - mSo DD
    Stab in the dark - Khajiit - sNB DD
    Jabjabjab Beambeambeam - Dunmer - mTe DD
    Spatium Auxiliarus - Imperial - hTe Tank&bank
    Spectre - Altmer - mNB DD
    Can't-Main-Tank -Argonian - sDK offTank
  • d8rmir
    d8rmir
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    Hi,

    Slightly off main topic but you guys seem very clued up about the maths behind the mechanics;

    Am I correct in understanding these optimum allocation of champion points;
    Sorcerer- 100 elemental expert, 58 elfborn, 9 spell erosion
    Templar- 100 thaumaturge, 58 elfborn, 9 spell erosion

    I have been putting points into thaumaturge on my sorc, is there a meaningful difference?

    The difference is: Thaumaturge boosts magic damage, Elemental Expert boosts elemental (shock, fire, frost) damage.
    As a sorcerer, your main skills (Force Pulse, Liquid Lightning, Overload) do shock damage, hence are unaffected by Thaumaturge. It affects your Crystal Fragments though, and your restoration skills (if any). I don't know about wards and pet attacks. Same applies to DK's, who mostly do fire damage.
    On the other hand, Templars and NBs mostly do magic damage, hence Thaumaturge is preferable for them.

    I may be missing something, feel free to complete my answer.

  • SublimeSparo
    SublimeSparo
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    d8rmir wrote: »

    The difference is: Thaumaturge boosts magic damage, Elemental Expert boosts elemental (shock, fire, frost) damage.
    As a sorcerer, your main skills (Force Pulse, Liquid Lightning, Overload) do shock damage, hence are unaffected by Thaumaturge. It affects your Crystal Fragments though, and your restoration skills (if any). I don't know about wards and pet attacks. Same applies to DK's, who mostly do fire damage.
    On the other hand, Templars and NBs mostly do magic damage, hence Thaumaturge is preferable for them.

    I may be missing something, feel free to complete my answer.

    Cheers =)
    Makes sense, I'd always assumed (incorrectly) that pretty much all magicka based attacks were classed as 'magic' damage regardless of whether they were dealing fire/ice/shock/magic damage.
    Hmmm tough choice to make then- increase the damage of hard hitting frags or up the damage of the more commonly used less powerful attacks and overload or split evenly between them..
    Does CP in either affect spell damage, and if so is it incrementally per point or are there jump points as with elfborn?
    I really wish there were addons/ dps meter for PS4!
    Edited by SublimeSparo on October 26, 2015 2:00PM
    PS4 EU CP900. PS4 NA CP600,
    vAA HM ☆ vHRC HM ☆ vSO HM ☆ vMOL
    4th Console vMOL clear,
    vMA cleared on all classes stam & magic

    My Tribe
    EU
    High Sparo - Altmer - mSo DD.
    Wood Sparo - Bosmer - sNB DD
    Nord Sparo - Nord -sDK DD/Tank.
    Bubble Girl - Imperial -sTe DD
    Succubus Sue - Breton - mNB Tank.
    Andrana Stormlock - Altmer - mTe Healer/ DD
    Elvali Marvani - Dunmer - mDK DD.
    Venemus Draconem - Redguard - sDK DD
    Jayri Leki - Redguard - sSo DD.
    Miss Jabsalot - Altmer - mTe PvP DD/ Tank
    Mireli Hlaano - Dunmer - mNB DD.
    Ms Shanks - Redguard - sNB DD/ le bank

    NA
    Dilemma Dame - Altmer - mDK DD
    Stamsorc Kitty - Redguard - sSor DD
    Aia Draconis - Imperial - sDK Tank
    Decides-Who-Lives - Argonian - mTe Healer
    You wont stop me - Altmer - mSo DD
    Stab in the dark - Khajiit - sNB DD
    Jabjabjab Beambeambeam - Dunmer - mTe DD
    Spatium Auxiliarus - Imperial - hTe Tank&bank
    Spectre - Altmer - mNB DD
    Can't-Main-Tank -Argonian - sDK offTank
  • SoulAffliction
    SoulAffliction
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    Any updates from the PTS? Just curious as to how it was progressing! Cheers!
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    There are significant changes due to to the change in Elfborn. If you are thinking about making Twice-Born, don't.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Colosso-monstro
    Colosso-monstro
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    Asayre wrote: »
    There are significant changes due to to the change in Elfborn. If you are thinking about making Twice-Born, don't.

    Could you explain what happened I can't figure it out
  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    I'll be running some tests comparing the 2 sets later this week. I'll get crit/non crit damage on V16 mobs, and some Bloodspawn parses hopefully. And I'm sending some gear to Asayre so he can run his owns tests too.

    Basically, hold off on crafting anything yet and we'll get some real numbers comparing Julianos and TBS. Note that my tests will be on magicka Templar where Piercing Spear may reflect things differently. I can maybe make a sorc template and do the same for frags, but Asayre will do the sorc side of things anyway.
    Server: EU Pact
    Guild: Hodor (PvE - www.hodor-guild.eu), Chimaira (PvE)
    Character: Oriantha (Templar Healer), Zelda's Inferno (Dragonknight Tank), The Lumen Sage (Stamina Sorcerer DD), The Umbra Witch (Magicka Nightblade DD), Flirts-With-Boys (Stamina Nightblade DD), Oriantha Ellesidil (Magicka Sorcerer DD/healer), Wariantha (Magicka Warden in the making)

    Current vMA score (Templar): Pending return to game
    World Record for all trials pre-Thieves Guild
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj clear
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj speed run clear
    Returning to the game for Morrowind
  • HIghwayRobberBill
    too late, we got excited and crafted the whole set.... then improved it to legendary lol
    [PS4] captainSNAKA
    v16 breton nightblade - HighwayRobberBill
    v16 dunmer Dragonknight - JimmyTheTuplip
    v16 redgaurd templar - Vixen
    v16 altmer sorcerer - Hermoine G

  • drzycki_ESO
    drzycki_ESO
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    too late, we got excited and crafted the whole set.... then improved it to legendary lol

    Me too. :(
  • Merlin13KAGL
    Merlin13KAGL
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    d8rmir wrote: »

    The difference is: Thaumaturge boosts magic damage, Elemental Expert boosts elemental (shock, fire, frost) damage.
    As a sorcerer, your main skills (Force Pulse, Liquid Lightning, Overload) do shock damage, hence are unaffected by Thaumaturge. It affects your Crystal Fragments though, and your restoration skills (if any). I don't know about wards and pet attacks. Same applies to DK's, who mostly do fire damage.
    On the other hand, Templars and NBs mostly do magic damage, hence Thaumaturge is preferable for them.

    I may be missing something, feel free to complete my answer.

    Cheers =)
    Makes sense, I'd always assumed (incorrectly) that pretty much all magicka based attacks were classed as 'magic' damage regardless of whether they were dealing fire/ice/shock/magic damage.
    Hmmm tough choice to make then- increase the damage of hard hitting frags or up the damage of the more commonly used less powerful attacks and overload or split evenly between them..
    Does CP in either affect spell damage, and if so is it incrementally per point or are there jump points as with elfborn?
    I really wish there were addons/ dps meter for PS4!
    @SublimeSparo, @d8rmir , it's screwy and always has been.

    It's anything but intuitive.

    For instance, in the Destro line (which seems elemental based and would be assumed to be elemental damage), Force Shock and morphs are the only ones that actually do "elemental" damage. The rest, including Elemental Ring actually do magic damage with elemental status effects.

    You really have to read the fine print, and obviously it will vary depending on which skill set you use, though for Sorc, it does tend to lean more towards favoring Elemental Expert. You can always split the difference in CP designation and get some bonus on both sides, but the break even point would take quite a bit more calculation.

    Most make the initial assumption that Destruction staff = Elemental Destruction staff, and all visual effects don't exactly indicate otherwise.

    Wards and Pet attacks are only affected by max stat pool, with Spell Damage having no effect one way or the other.

    Got to hand it to ZoS, it's about as ass-backwards as it can be. During a typical fight, look at the list of your attacks from most damage/DPS to least and this should help determine how to vary the stats.

    They only downside is that you will lose the 75 point passive if you drop Thaumaturge below that point.
    Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...

    Earn it.

    IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.
    I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
    Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS
  • d8rmir
    d8rmir
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    Most make the initial assumption that Destruction staff = Elemental Destruction staff, and all visual effects don't exactly indicate otherwise.

    My assumption was rather Destruction staff = Force Pulse, hence elemental staff.
    Thanks for the tip about pets and wards.
  • Samphaa
    Samphaa
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    Any news on this guys?
  • d8rmir
    d8rmir
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    Samphaa wrote: »
    Any news on this guys?

    Yes, but the discussion moved to Asayre's thread on tamrielfoundry, I suggest you to follow that one. Here is the link:

    http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pts-2-1-2-sorcerer-arithmagic/
  • Samphaa
    Samphaa
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    Thanks dude
  • Ezareth
    Ezareth
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    It boils down to what I said earlier.
    Ezareth wrote: »
    have you verified Elfborn passive is working correctly on PTS? Last time I checked it was only giving half benefit. 1% Crit damage was actually making your 50% = 50.5%.

    They finally fixed Elfborn.

    To put it in terms easily grasped without much understanding of math, with a High CP player (400-500 CPs) you will have enough bonus crit damage that the shadow mundus contribution actually becomes a smaller percentage of your overall damage. This means that the extra spell power and crit given by Julianos exceeds the benefits of the Shadow mundus by a fair margin because of this.
    Permanently banned from the forums for displaying dissent: ESO - The Year Behind
    Too Much Bolt Escape - banned for "hacking the game to create movement not otherwise permitted by in game mechanics."
    Ezareth VR16 AD Sorc - Rank 36 - Axe NA
    Ezareth-Ali VR16 DC NB - Rank 20 - Chillrend NA
    Ezareth PvP on Youtube
  • Hiero_Glyph
    Hiero_Glyph
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    It boils down to what I said earlier.
    Ezareth wrote: »
    have you verified Elfborn passive is working correctly on PTS? Last time I checked it was only giving half benefit. 1% Crit damage was actually making your 50% = 50.5%.

    They finally fixed Elfborn.

    To put it in terms easily grasped without much understanding of math, with a High CP player (400-500 CPs) you will have enough bonus crit damage that the shadow mundus contribution actually becomes a smaller percentage of your overall damage. This means that the extra spell power and crit given by Julianos exceeds the benefits of the Shadow mundus by a fair margin because of this.

    Do these findings hold true for the Templar (PvE) as well, or is TBS better due to Burning Light and crit heals?
  • stonerskate109
    I'm running 2 torugs pact, 3 willpower, 5 kagrenacs as well as 2 valkyn skoria and I sit at 2840 spell damage as a templar. I'm definitely going with julianos when it comes out I'll sit at closer to 30 with valkyn skoria procs which will be super sweet :)

    Using skoria is a dps loss...

    I could trade it for one kena piece but the way I look at it is that losing 120 spell damage is worth procing a meteor literally every other hit. Templar proc skoria ridiculously
  • EgoRush
    EgoRush
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    Ezareth wrote: »
    It boils down to what I said earlier.
    Ezareth wrote: »
    have you verified Elfborn passive is working correctly on PTS? Last time I checked it was only giving half benefit. 1% Crit damage was actually making your 50% = 50.5%.

    They finally fixed Elfborn.

    To put it in terms easily grasped without much understanding of math, with a High CP player (400-500 CPs) you will have enough bonus crit damage that the shadow mundus contribution actually becomes a smaller percentage of your overall damage. This means that the extra spell power and crit given by Julianos exceeds the benefits of the Shadow mundus by a fair margin because of this.

    Do these findings hold true for the Templar (PvE) as well, or is TBS better due to Burning Light and crit heals?

    We have a discussion going about magicka Templar for these sets here:
    http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/aedrics-warrior-magicka-build-templar-dd/page/28/#post-626569

    I ran a few brief tests and will expand on this. The difference seems very small between them right now. If you have any suggestions on improving the tests then let me know. I'm leaning ever-so-slightly towards Julianos right now, but more testing is needed still.
    Server: EU Pact
    Guild: Hodor (PvE - www.hodor-guild.eu), Chimaira (PvE)
    Character: Oriantha (Templar Healer), Zelda's Inferno (Dragonknight Tank), The Lumen Sage (Stamina Sorcerer DD), The Umbra Witch (Magicka Nightblade DD), Flirts-With-Boys (Stamina Nightblade DD), Oriantha Ellesidil (Magicka Sorcerer DD/healer), Wariantha (Magicka Warden in the making)

    Current vMA score (Templar): Pending return to game
    World Record for all trials pre-Thieves Guild
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj clear
    World first V16 Maw of Lorkhaj speed run clear
    Returning to the game for Morrowind
  • NiclasFridholm
    NiclasFridholm
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    I have gotten Molag Kena to procc on light attack weaving with Dark Flare, anyone else tried this!?

    With DW swords that is...
    Edited by NiclasFridholm on October 30, 2015 11:13AM
    Tobias Funke - Magplar since forever

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